Is there an afterlife?

[Sui Generis]

[QUOTE][i]Originally Posted By: Dan L[/i]
I love what you said up there "If you look at Earth everything has been placed there for a reason". Tell me this, since when did Evolution have any form of reasoning?

It doesn't. Evolution by principle is a purely random process. It doesn't know where it's going or where it wants to go. There is no plan of action, things just end up where they end up. Things don't fall into place, but they fall where they fall and if it's in a decent place it stays.

The sheer fact that everything on this planet has a purpose, whether it be the distance from the sun, the rotation speed, the fact that we have water, and a whole load of things we need, could not have come about by evolution alone.

There's far more arguments against non-theistic (atheist) evolution, but I'll go into them if anyone asks.

Now the point is that everything points towards a creator of some sort, some kind of supreme being that follows, and even creates, order and reason in the natural world.

Pretty much every religion which believes in a creator believes in an afterlife or reincarnation of some sort.

Therefore it pretty much follows reason that there is one, if any one of those is right.

If none of them are right then well.. I hope eternal nothingness is appealing to you..[/QUOTE]

Ah but you are saying that I believe in Evolution.

This is a completely different topic, but it seems the thread is taking that direction or atleast in response to your post....

The thought that we as humans know what happened however long ago the univers, Earth, everything was created is assuming way too much. The possibilities are endless. To say that we in our maybe....thousand years of scientifically studying it know exactly what happened is just the opposite of what we've tried to do, its un-scientific.

The odds are that the true way everything came together is still a mysteriouse. There is so much out there, magic could exist. Things we haven't even comprehended yet exist out there, so why should we know everything now?

If you look up at the stars its endless no? I mean for all we know a giant machine from some far off alien race MADE our world and packed up and left after making everything needed. I'm not saying its true, but its possible.

Everything is possible, to count everything out saying ONE thing is IT is just ignorant.

Thats what we are as humans. We are an ignorant species. The Earth is young, so therefor everything on it is. So any young thing is ignorant to the world around it untill taught by something else. Sure nature lets it see some of its beauty, but a lot has to be taught by its parents.

I don't know if any of this makes sense or not, and if it doesn't I'm sorry.

For all I know there is a god. It may very well be GOD. We may very well have a Heaven and Hell. We may very well be the middel bridge between. This could be Hell. This could be Heaven. We don't know, and I don't think no human will ever know until death. So untill then keep wondering....

Evolution... Evolution itself makes no sense to me. Evolution is a long process and it contradicts other scientific facts out there. Of course thats stating that these "Scientific Facts" are correct. Its to messy for my taste, as you said random. The selecton of what it becomes isn't really random it has one goal. When a species evolves theres one reason and only one. Survival. Thats what Evolution is about, survival of the fittest. You know the whole Darwin thing.

I think everything does evolve, but thats not what started it. Something started has an end, and evolution is forever going. Everything ages, everything expires, and everything changes. Thats evolution. So saying it started the world wouldn't make sense, because it would evolve from nothing. Nothing in essance can't evolve into something, you must have a (very small or large) substance to start the evolution. Evolution comes from the Theory of the Big Bang, well what doesn't make sense there is the whole what started the bang. Well yes I know thats commonly a theolgical argument against the Big Bang theory but its a valid point.

Scientists argue to theologions that something had to start Earth, and it simply couldn't come from nothing. Well I believe (MY PERSONAL OPINION) if two arguments can fight each other with the same question then neither is complete nor correct. That is my belief...

On the Evolution vs. Creationism thing. Studying your surroundings prooves that everything evolves, thats a fact. I mean ever Theologians believe that species evolve, just not that, thats what started it all. But if everything else evolves, why haven't we? Sure our brains may have grown bigger, but every species known to man has made a physical appearance change. They have grown something, or made something that has increased their survival rate. Humans to my knowledge haven't done that. I may be wrong, but it doesn't make sense that humans would be the perfect being needing no change from the start. Everything has to have a rough draft.

Obviously a creationist could argue that humans just haven't been threatened with survival. That we've never had something above us in the food chain. And thats possible, but even in nature the top of the food chain still evolves. Things still happen to increase their survival, to make them stronger, more dominant, so their prey can't become completely immune to them.


Both of them as I've said don't really make sense to me, both can be canceled out by their own arguments. Which is non-sensical to me.

Of course I could be completely wrong, I could be looking at this in too much of a "this has to be sensable" thing. Everything could be non-sensible, after all sense is something humans created. So I really don't know whats out there, and where it came from. All I know is it is out there, and I'm here. So untill that time I have to leave I'm going to enjoy my stay, and not worry about it.

Heaven, Hell, the after life. All are mysteriouse that will only be solved at the end (or the beginning if you wanna look at it that way) of a person's journey. When that day comes I'm sure I may have to swallow some of these words, I'm sure everyone will.

Oh and also I didn't say I wanted a deep dark nothingness when I die. And who said it'd be a deep dark nothingness. It could very well be just like your sleeping, and you never wake up. We could just live in our dreams after we die. Yet that wouldn't be possible scientifically because the brain is dead without blood and blood stops when you die. ALso the brains stops when you die so yeah thats pretty much out of the question. If we are looking at it schientifcally but hey like I've many times we'll never know.

The thought of an after life I think is a human creation. Just like fantasy. I think its a wish that when we go away, we still some how are here. Still some how stay connected with the ones that we truly cherish. Its only human nature to be scared of nothing in itself, and to be scared of loosing everything that you've faught for, worked for, and recieved in your life. The ending of your life is the end of a magnificent piece of work that has finally finished. When you die you finish you're last project. You created a personality, you developed, you shared it with others, and you left your mark on society.

I think humans just don't want to be forgotten, and to go to the after life would some how give people a sense of meaning, that humans themselves were high enough to live after death. To show that they are strong, and to show that no matter what we will survive.

To survive the essance of nature. Humans are apart of nature after all!

So thats my thoughts, everyone's arguments are valid in my opinion, everyone here is right. Because they believe their own thing.

*Steps off his soap box*

Again if any of that didn't make sense.....sorry. Also if I offend someone I had no intention to and I am sorry...

I'm sure I lost some respect with this post from some of you probably, but I said what I felt so hey thats all I can do ^.^;;

[Braidless Baka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by doukeshi03 [/i]
[B]I believe that when you die, there's either gonna be a large black nothingness, no conciousness or anything and that scares the bejesus out of me. Then there's the other one. We are reincarnated, in another life. However I don't believe in all of this Karma whatever you do in this life is punished in the next...no. What you come back as is pure chance, but there's always some small part of you, your soul if you wish that goes with you...that effects who you are. It won't effect your actions completely, I mean you could be a murderer in one life and a nun in another. I'm just saying that there are going to be similarities.[/B][/QUOTE]

*coughs* Well, as much as I'd love to debate the existance of God, I'm sure this thread was about the afterlife, so, if I repeat what anyone's said, or step on anyone's toes I apologise. I haven't actually read the whole thread O_o!

Anyway! *pulls out Lalaith's soap box for herself*

Onto the main point, I believe in reincarnation... I can only say this from some strange stuff that happened to me when I was little - at about 6 or 7 I promised my grandma that my grandad (who had recently died) was just waiting in "god's waiting room" to be born again as a baby... So, I wasn't making anything up really, I just felt that my grandad was going to be reborn... So I must believe reincarnation, if I was announcing such things as a child.

Also, one afternoon my father and I were watching golf. Again, I was younger than 6... 4 maybe, and he decided to explain the rules to me. I told him I already knew the rules, and explained how they played the game 50 years ago... My father rang my uncle, who's a complete golf buff, and asked him if I was right... I was... but why would I make up stuff like that? And how did I get it right?

I don't know if deeds in a past life affect what you "return" as. I can't imagine that I did anything amazing in past lives to be a human now. And if that was so, how come there are so many bad people around nowadays? That part doesn't work out, I know... But I still think we are all reborn.

Also comes the fact that I'm too afraid to admit that life might just stop **POOF** like that...

So... yeah... *pushes the soapbox under the table for someone else to use* ^__^ I'm done!

[i]By the way... I don't have a [/i]clue[i] how to play golf anymore[/i] O_o!!!

[Failed_Attempts]

*steals Braidless Baka's soapbox quickly from under the table*

You may be afraid to admit that life as we know it will just cease to exist; but, I'm not. For all I (or anyone) knows, the world could just get destroyed in some massive way tomorrow. Who knows? No one.I sure don't, but I do have my believes. Reincarnation, theory of evolution of mankind, theory (big bang) for the earth's creation, I have my OWN set of beliefs.

But...as I was saying. The world could just end in a fiery blaze tomorrow. You don't know it, but, then again, you can have opinions. Right? Heaven and Hell, I feel, was just made up to give people a false sense of security to do good and that they'll go to a "better world." But, your body is just going to rot, in the ground, as I said in my post, previously. I agree with Braidless Baka too. The whole, reborn thing, I think it's true. You may not know what you'll be reborn as, but reborn none the less.

*decides she needs to shut up, and jumps off the soapbox* I'm done, I hope that that made sense, if not, I'm sorry. @_@;

[Blackroseoni]

This seems to be a pretty heated discussion. For myself...all I really have to say is I cannt belive in either eternal damination nor eternal reward...a measly 100 years is not enough to gauge a persons worth to me. I belive in reincarnation, eventually ending in a type of 'ascension' once the reincarnated soul has gained enough time on the earth to be judged for the afterlife.

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][b]hehehe..good ideas, but why don't u ppl read the bible
[/b]

[size=1]Boy oh boy...You're really asking for it.

Mitch--How can you not believe in hope? I mean...wow. Hope--It just [i]is.[/i] Even when I'd rather not deal with it, it still flits around. Emily Dickinson, [b]254[/b].

[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] As I said before, I see God and afterlife as hope in many people's eyes. They simply believe in him because so many millions of other people believe in him, and simply because they do want to live forever.

Hope is a funny thing. It certainly is, but what is it? Can you give me an exact noun for it? One that explains it specifically and powerfully? Perhaps you can and perhaps you can't.

What it comes down to is emotions are what control us so much. Hope is just another motion of emotion and control. It's holding onto something to give life some meaning.

To me, now, it does not seem my life does have a meaning. I'm just here to live and die like so many others, and like you and him and [i]everyone[/i].

I'm not going to believe in something that I cannot believe in. I'm not going to lie and say I do. I do not belive in God. It's as simple as that.

I think watching [i]The Matrix: Reloaded[/i] caused me to consider many things. Hope is one of those. It's what makes us so strong and so weak. And I don't want to hold on to something that's more an apparition than anything else it possibly can be. I'd rather die knowing a truth, but there is no truth. There is only the realization the end is the end. The beginning is the beginning.

Even that right there is flawed. Who's to say? Exaclty.

No one's to say. There could be an afterlife there couldn't. There could be a God, and, there couldn't. To assume is not to believe. Can I say it again? To assume is not to believe.

I don't believe in hope. I don't assume there is hope. All I have is what I believe and these are not part of them.[/size][/font][/color]

[Justin]

Heh, I love you guys.

In order to understand the Christian faith(for those of you who aren't a part of it), you have to know that we're going to preach our beliefs(those of us who follow the Bible anyway).

I think most everyone here has defended their beliefs very well, and I'm proud that this topic hasn't turned into a stinking pit of mudslinging. It really reflects the character of our entire board. :)

Maybe this is the beginning of a new, more flame-free Otaku Lounge. One where debates like these are actually possible on a regular basis. :)

Just thought I'd drop this in.

God be with you all,

-Justin

*EDIT*
Mitch; You know what they say about assuming...it makes you and me look like an idiot. Well...yeah, close enough. But you're absolutely correct. Assumtion is not belief. One needs proof, or what proof he can come to. And you'll see that most(all I remember seeing) of the Christians in this thread specifically say they have their proof.

That proof is far more than mere hope. Hope is nothing but the wanting(or expecting) of things to come. Our proof is that those things have already come for us. The things Jesus said in the Bible about Christians--I see them fulfilled everyday.

You may have your belief, by all means. But whether you believe in Him or not, Jesus does has, does, and always will love you, my friend.

Thank you,

-Justin

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray]What it comes down to is emotions are what control us so much. Hope is just another motion of emotion and control. [b]It's holding onto something to give life some meaning. [/b][/size][/font][/color] [/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]Mitch, that's it exactly.

If I didn't have hope, I would have killed myself about thirty times over this week. I've got no qualms about dying. What keeps me from actually doing it?

Hope that tomorrow will be better. Hope that I'll be able to talk to my friends tonight, hope that I'll get a letter the next afternoon, hope that there'll still be orange popsicles left in the freezer when I get home from school. Hope that my friend won't be sick tomorrow, hope that I'll be able to talk to my crush during school.

Hope is being able to look beyond how rotten life can be, and see something pleasant. Expecting that something else is coming. And if it isn't? Well, then you move on and hope for the next thing.

Hope isn't [i]believing[/i] anything. I guess it's almost more wish-fulfilment than anything else. You don't have to declare that you know you're getting an A in Chem, you just have to think, "Heh, that would be nice." And maybe worth living through.

Glory, Mitch--I honestly don't know why you haven't just killed yourself. I wouldn't be able to live without looking forward to what may be next.

[i]Any[/i] kind of emotion is "just something to give meaning to life." Pick one.[/SIZE]

[Kwai]

"Hope... along with the words we like each other..." - Rei and Tabris, Neon Genesis Evangelion...
Hope is the driving force behind a living human being. No hope, there is no point for you to live, or to even exist. I really cannot believe that you have no hope Mitch... for example, when you post all the posts here at OB, I am sure you 'hope' that someone responds or you will receive an appraisal of your posts in the poetry section of OB...

[TheShinje]

[size=1] Could not have said it better myself, Justin.

The evidence that skeptics have longed for in reality, have always been there, God will always provide a way for those with an open mind and an open heart. For the heavens declare the glory of the LORD, through it's amazing complexity and design.

Then there's the exponential increase in knowledge and travel Described in the last chapters of Daniel, startlingly similar to the supercomputer and the Aircraft. making travel and everythign here, and now...

Increased earthquakes were described as being one of the signs of the second coming, earthquakes are so common and in frequency now, that it is almost impossible to get good premiums on earthquake insurance.

There are Wars and rumors of wars, as predicted in the Bible, the rumors of wars are such thigns as the "cold war" which is the ultimate exapmple, and there are constant wars everywhere, not to mention the war on terror, which is a near WW3.

Strange lights in the sky are apparent through UFO's and aliens, perplexing mankind, as they were going to, the trickery of the devil behind this is astonishing.... All this in one chapter of the bible, Matthew 24.

And finally, it was wirtten that the coming of the lord shall not come, until there is a fallign away form the teachings of the Bible and a falling away from the true church. This has been fulfiled.

-It is now illegal to pray in most High schools
- Evolution is however, taught as fact, when it hasn't completely been proven, and its flawed in so ,many ways, blind faith that God desn't exist...

Biblical principles are being thrown out as irrelevant, as we head to the only solution for the worlds problems, a global government, a new world oreder that most people long for, however, The Bible predicted it long before people wanted it, and it will be headed by the Antichrist, and it will also possibly be a mutation of the U.N which is the base work for such a global government.

YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS ARE BEING VANISHED!

The U.S Constitution accepts that the huiman rights were given by God, therefore can't be removed by governments, since the U.N by it's nature is atheistic, they have taken out God from their constitution, and now the Rights are granted by the U.N, with the premise that those rights don't conflict with the goals of the U.N

so, any rights they gove, can be taken away, and this is precisely the reason the U.N will be vital to the antichrist, who is coming...

It was predicted long ago, it was written in the Bible, irrelevant? you do the math,

Remember that jesus loves you, he want's you to know and love him, and he awaits you to choose him, so you can recieve the glorius rapture of being one of the chosen at his right hand. Jesus love you, no matter how much you may hate him, such love.[/size]

[DuoMax]

I believe that death is simply humans transposing to a state of being in whihc the physical body is no longer required

my 2 cents are in there, repond how ye will...

[Jesus Chicken]

I hope there is something out there, waiting to forgive me when I die...I hope that it's not just myself staring blankly into a coffin roof for all eternity...I hope there's something else...
I want to believe in reincarnation, but all these people who say that God is not a hope, are lying to themselves. People believe in God because they need a hope. I think people reject teachings from the bible because they are stubborn, and don't like to be told anything they can't see, taste or touch.
I beleive this, because it's what I believe. I'm not sure about the afterlife, I don't know what is going to happen. For all anyone knows, we could all get sent to a giant turtle in the sky, and be forced to make cream forever.
I would like to emphasise the word KNOWS in what I just said and to quote Josh Homme "No One Knows".
Anyone who thinks they know the answer is obviously wrong, because there is only one way to know the answer, and that is, for you, yourself to die. You can't be told the answer, because then you are just believing it. You can't be shown it, it can't be written to you from a 2000 year old book, it can't be read to you, and you can't hear it from any speaker.
Am I making my point clear to all of you?
I am a nihilist, I think everyone should make their own mind up about it, rather then have it drilled into them since they were four by some old guy.
The afterlife, is debatable until you reach the end of your current life...but till then, no one can say you're wrong in what you beleive in with any justification or proof.

Believe what you want to believe, I just hope everyone of us is proved horribly wrong about it all.

[Dan L]

OK. Another long quoting post, methinks.

*thumbs up to Justin and Shinji Ikari*

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Ah but you are saying that I believe in Evolution.[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually what I meant was that evolution is the general non-religious standpoint.

Sure, there are lots of other different ideas, but most of them are just someone's personal opinion. Creationism is hardly considered an established scientific fact, but there is ample evidence for it if you look. And I know James points to this "telling lies for God" book, but you'll find that the [i]respectable[/i] creationist science societies [b]rebuke[/b] the ones that fudge evidence in [i]exactly[/i] the same way, because telling lies to confirm what God says is to try to bring truth out of lies. Which is wrong.

So yeah. My point is that evolution is pretty much the only other [i]established[/i] idea, hence it was naturally the one I referred to. That doesn't necessarily mean you believe it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]The thought that we as humans know what happened however long ago the univers, Earth, everything was created is assuming way too much. The possibilities are endless. To say that we in our maybe....thousand years of scientifically studying it know exactly what happened is just the opposite of what we've tried to do, its un-scientific.[/b][/quote]

That's completely right. Every scientific method used to prove evolution and big bang theory is based on assumptions. The best one of all is the fact that the proof for the big bang stems from the assumption that there was a big bang at all. People assume that since the universe is expanding, it must have at some point been very small and then it "exploded". However, since we've only been measuring things and recording them for a few thousand years, we have NO IDEA what could have happened before that point.

Scientists assume the earth formed out of a cosmic cloud of some sort, and hence there would have been a certain amount of uranium in the rocks. Thus they can predict the age of rocks by the uranium levels in them. However that is still based on big assumptions, and when you extrapolate assumptions back to 1,000,000 times as long as we've been measuring things, it simply doesn't work because you can't possibly know what happened before hand.

Evolution itself is based on the assumption that intermediary species exist. However they've never once been found. It is merely assumed that they are out there somewhere, and thus fills the great big hole known as the intermediary species problem. Is assuming something's there DESPITE not finding it really scientific?

So yeah. In human terms, "knowledge" comes and "knowledge" goes. Despite the huge number of things that we still know as proven today, from long ago, there were also a great number of really messed up ideas that were [i]accepted as fact[/i] at the time. And people always argued that the evidence was overwhelming. Then what happened? it got proven wrong, or just got forgotten. I suggest you don't get too confident in what the human race finds true today, because human truth changes drastically over time, and much as the evidence is compelling now, the people of tomorrow (if there are any) will look down on us with their far more advanced and correct ideas, which in themselves are just as flawed.

Note: I wasn't disgreeing with you there lalaith.. I think I supported your point more than anything.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Thats what we are as humans..[/b][/quote]

Yeah. lol. Both the Bible and history support that one.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Evolution... Evolution itself makes no sense to me. Evolution is a long process and it contradicts other scientific facts out there. Of course thats stating that these "Scientific Facts" are correct. Its to messy for my taste, as you said random. The selecton of what it becomes isn't really random it has one goal. When a species evolves theres one reason and only one. Survival. Thats what Evolution is about, survival of the fittest. You know the whole Darwin thing.

I think everything does evolve, but thats not what started it. Something started has an end, and evolution is forever going. Everything ages, everything expires, and everything changes. Thats evolution. So saying it started the world wouldn't make sense, because it would evolve from nothing. Nothing in essance can't evolve into something, you must have a (very small or large) substance to start the evolution. Evolution comes from the Theory of the Big Bang, well what doesn't make sense there is the whole what started the bang. Well yes I know thats commonly a theolgical argument against the Big Bang theory but its a valid point.[/b][/quote]

the first bit: yeah, like I said. human understanding is always flawed, regardless of how much improved we think we've become. Certain things we do improve our understanding on. Much as many like to think otherwise, the Earth is most definitely round. And the Earth goes around the sun. The bible does NOT contradict that for two reasons.

1: The passages which "contradict" that speak of the sun travelling across the sky. Look at the sky for a while, and look at what you see. It does move across the sky. That's just what we see as humans. That doesn't mean that when the Bible says it moves across the sky, it means that it's up in the sky going around the Earth. It means the Bible is written from an Earthly perspective, and not a heavenly one, which it is.

2: The people who refuted Galileo's ideas were basing their ideas on Aristotle's idea that "philosophy is more important than science" and thus scientific backing meant nothing at all to them. If you look into it, you'll find the church actually supported his claims. They still supported his claims even after the trial incident. However the main reason for the trial was that Galileo called the pope a fool. Understandably, no-one likes to be called that.

But yeah. My point is a lot of ideas are kept, however there are a great deal which are scientifically discarded. Like the elements system of fire, water etc. That was considered science at one point, and all the "evidence" pointed to it. Only because they didn't know all the facts. and neither do we.

The second bit: Everything evolves in a fashion. However the evolution that we observe is not what creates new species. It creates new variants of a species, like sub species which are thinner, fatter, smaller, larger, striped, spotted, long-beaked, etc. but they're still essentially the same thing. If you were to breed two different kinds of cat you'd get another type. However if you tried to breed a cat to a hippo, it just wouldn't work. And not just because of the size.

What we essentially see is adaptation. Species becoming streamlined to their new surroundings, we do NOT see evolution, ie. new [b]types[/b] of creature come about. An example of this is the fact that in 100 years, we've observed around 2 1/2 million generations of E.Coli. We've forced mutations multiple times. But we've ended up with E. coli every time. Adapted E.coli, but E.coli all the same. This is the supposed proof for evolution, and it's what always had me convinced. But it does not support the idea of evolution into new species, as opposed to evolution [i]within a species[/i], which is both proven, and is also not counter-creationist at all.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]On the Evolution vs. Creationism thing. Studying your surroundings prooves that everything evolves, thats a fact. I mean ever Theologians believe that species evolve, just not that, thats what started it all. But if everything else evolves, why haven't we? Sure our brains may have grown bigger, but every species known to man has made a physical appearance change. They have grown something, or made something that has increased their survival rate. Humans to my knowledge haven't done that. I may be wrong, but it doesn't make sense that humans would be the perfect being needing no change from the start. Everything has to have a rough draft.[/b][/quote]

Humans don't evolve?

Ever noticed the difference between the appearances of people in different parts of the world? In hotter climates people are black, in cooler ones they are white. In china and the far east, they're kind of in-between and have different shaped eyes.

That doesn't mean people should be treated differently. We are all exactly the same species- but that just shows my point. People have been living in seperate places in the world for however long, and ultimately they've all grown to be slightly different to one another. THAT is evolution within a species. but not creation of new species.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Of course I could be completely wrong, I could be looking at this in too much of a "this has to be sensable" thing. Everything could be non-sensible, after all sense is something humans created. So I really don't know whats out there, and where it came from. All I know is it is out there, and I'm here. So untill that time I have to leave I'm going to enjoy my stay, and not worry about it.[/b]

Sense isn't so much something that humans created, with created being in the past. But it's something we create. It's based on our current understanding at all times, rather than some objective idea of what "sense" is.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Heaven, Hell, the after life. All are mysteriouse that will only be solved at the end (or the beginning if you wanna look at it that way) of a person's journey. When that day comes I'm sure I may have to swallow some of these words, I'm sure everyone will.[/b][/quote]

It's best not to wait til the end to decide your view on it. If any one of the majority of religions that believes in heaven/hell is right, then there's a lot to lose if you make the wrong choice. And anyone who says they're not afraid of going to hell (as in, they wouldn't mind if they were sent there) doesn't know a lot about it. And anyone who thinks they can get good with Satan and rule over hell knows even less.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]Oh and also I didn't say I wanted a deep dark nothingness when I die. And who said it'd be a deep dark nothingness. It could very well be just like your sleeping, and you never wake up. We could just live in our dreams after we die. Yet that wouldn't be possible scientifically because the brain is dead without blood and blood stops when you die. ALso the brains stops when you die so yeah thats pretty much out of the question. If we are looking at it schientifcally but hey like I've many times we'll never know.[/b][/quote]

How exactly do you live in your dreams when your brain has already died and rotted?

I mean, once your consciousness goes, what else is there if you don't believe in an afterlife of any kind?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]The thought of an after life I think is a human creation. Just like fantasy. I think its a wish that when we go away, we still some how are here. Still some how stay connected with the ones that we truly cherish. Its only human nature to be scared of nothing in itself, and to be scared of loosing everything that you've faught for, worked for, and recieved in your life.[/b][/quote]

But [i]why[/i] is it human nature. Or more specifically, why is it [i]not[/i] animal nature? What benefit do we actually gain from being afraid of something unless there's something afterwards to be afraid of (ie. if you make the wrong choice)?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]I think humans just don't want to be forgotten, and to go to the after life would some how give people a sense of meaning, that humans themselves were high enough to live after death. To show that they are strong, and to show that no matter what we will survive.

To survive the essance of nature. Humans are apart of nature after all![/b][/quote]

The essence of nature is to live, and keep the species going. Obviously that means it's good to survive to a certain extent, but the "survival as the essence of nature" generally applies to a species as a whole more than an individual. The individual may wish to survive and keep the species going, but it does not fear death as an individual, for the benefit of nature as a whole. The essence of nature itself is not survival but balance. The survival of one individual species is based upon the interactions of nature as a system as a whole. All finely tuned by, in my view, God. However He gave us dominion over the lot of it, and we are far from perfect. Hence wherever we go the balance is disturbed.

How else do you explain one single species having such power over everything else on the planet?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]So thats my thoughts, everyone's arguments are valid in my opinion, everyone here is right. Because they believe their own thing.[/B][/QUOTE]

But my belief, to be right, makes it necessary that other beliefs are wrong. So how can everyone be right if, for me to be right, you must be wrong?

Just thought I'd let you ponder that.

(By the way. A lot of what I said was completely non-based on what you said or believe. Therefore if you come across an argument against something you don't believe, it was more for everyone else than it was against you, lalaith ;) )

Moving on to Mitch..

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] As I said before, I see God and afterlife as hope in many people's eyes. They simply believe in him because so many millions of other people believe in him, and simply because they do want to live forever.[/size][/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Mitch, I went without God or any kind of substantial belief for 19 years. I could have gone for far longer and not really cared. I always felt that there was something kind of watching over my life.. but heh.. I was just a lucky guy, I thought.

But then last year, little by little he started seeping into my life. And I resisted. And I nearly brought about my own end, but He brought me through it and ultimately I ended up believing in and following God.

[b]NOT[/b] becuase I was told to. [i]EVER[/i]. [b]NOT[/b] because I wanted eternal life. I really didn't deserve it at the time. But because despite what I'd done, he still cared for me, and I could feel that.

Earlier, on the day I actually asked God into my life I pretty much broke down due to things I needn't go into. And it just happened that there was a church service later that evening that I said I'd go to, just so I could say "no, I definately don't believe that" afterwards. But at the time I really didn't want to go at all. It just didn't feel right.

I ended up going and the speaker was talking about people who've had their lives broken down, and how God heals them. Some of the things he said spoke to me in kind of a personal way, despite the fact that

1: he wasn't from that church and thus didn't know me at all
2: the people from church didn't know me very well either
3: the people from church had no clue what happened earlier that day, or even that anything did.
4: this was during the talk, he wasn't speaking to me directly at all, nor had he seen me

That night I asked God into my life, not in the church, but in my room. Not out of pressure but [b]of my own will[/b].

So yes. Many people do believe in god for the sake of it. but there are also a [b]lot[/b] of people who don't.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray]Hope is a funny thing. It certainly is, but what is it? Can you give me an exact noun for it? One that explains it specifically and powerfully? Perhaps you can and perhaps you can't.[/size][/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

The ultimate hope is in grace.

Grace is something we don't deserve because let's face it, we're an evil bunch. but God gives it anyway.

why? because those who believe are better? No

because he loves all his creations and wants none of them to perish.

You can put it down to "emotions" all you want, but the thing is, if you never experience it, you'll never know.

If the majority of the human race were born blind, they'd argure that the few that claimed to be able to see were lying, on the grounds that the majority couldn't see. The few were just being hopeful and believing in something that's not there. Of course, there'd also be a fair number who claimed to be able to see but they were just blind too.

Get the idea?

The reason you can't see hope, Mitch, is because you've never experienced God. Thus you can't see it. Thus you're trapped in this blindness that stops you from seeing the reason behind hope, and thus hope seems meaningless to you.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray]To me, now, it does not seem my life does have a meaning. I'm just here to live and die like so many others, and like you and him and [i]everyone[/i].[/size][/font][/color][/B][/QUOTE]

A beautiful sunset is neither meaningful nor beautiful without eyes to see it. Refer to last point about spiritual blindness.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray]I think watching [i]The Matrix: Reloaded[/i] caused me to consider many things. Hope is one of those. It's what makes us so strong and so weak. And I don't want to hold on to something that's more an apparition than anything else it possibly can be. I'd rather die knowing a truth, but there is no truth. There is only the realization the end is the end. The beginning is the beginning.[/size][/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

If there is no truth, how can there be no truth if "there is no truth" must be true for there to be no truth?

Again, refer to spiritual blindness. If you can't see the truth, it's easy to say that there is no truth. But that doesn't mean it's not there.

[Doukeshi]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]Heh, I love you guys.

I think most everyone here has defended their beliefs very well, and I'm proud that this topic hasn't turned into a stinking pit of mudslinging. It really reflects the character of our entire board. :)

Maybe this is the beginning of a new, more flame-free Otaku Lounge. One where debates like these are actually possible on a regular basis. :)

Just thought I'd drop this in.

God be with you all,

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah Justin it makes me happy that people can debate subjects like these civilly without resorting to senseless flaming.

God can be with me if God chooses and if what the bible teaches is right then I shall be forgiven. However, if I'm not and I'm sent to hell then I'd like to think that I'm going to that nice little place in Dantes hell where all those people who were around before Jesus came along went like Plato and Aristotle...kind of like a heaven for non believers.

However, God is not a big part of my life and I'm sure there are far worse people in this world who need Jesus' love more than me

[Decadence]

about human evolution he's right the diff skin color, eye shape, ect. is all a form of evolution. also the humans arnt at the peak of there existence but right now we have technology its sumwhat like we don't absolutly need to evolve cuz we can just try to invent something to fix the problem thus stoping the race from evolving cuz it seems to me that evolution stems from a lasting problem example. the hotter places darkers skin thing see the skin got burnt to easaly so it became darker and darker and darker untill it was very hard to burn same with the realy cold places there skin just got lighter and lighter untill they could get enough of the suns vitamin (cant remember which one the sun gives) to be healthy.

and yes its surprizing there hasnt been much flaiming on this post

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][SIZE=1]
Glory, Mitch--I honestly don't know why you haven't just killed yourself. I wouldn't be able to live without looking forward to what may be next.

[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] [i]That[/i] is where you are not me and I am not you.

You see, you need to realize something. I'm certain this is quite obvious, but just think about it.

I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] hope to live. I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] God to live. I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] reason to live.

Sara, killing myself is not in me at all. I know it's not in you, either. Perhaps it is--but think it over in your mind. If you did decide to kill yourself, to actually go through it, would you actually fall through with it completely. Most likely than anything I don't think you would.

The same goes for me. I couldn't even kill myself if I tried. Yes, the thoughts go through my head nearly every single day, but I still drown them out. I couldn't and I won't go through with that. I am not that weak and desperate.

Now, realize this: all that [i]need to live[/i] is to be able to breathe. All you need is to be able to breathe into your lungs, oxygenate the blood in your heart, and let it flow all around your body. [i]All you need[/i] to live is to supply your body with energy to keep your heart, liver, spleen, kidneys, and every single other organ in your body to work. That's all you need.

You don't need emotion, that's simply tacked onto us and what makes us human. You don't need to have things. You don't need to do anything. All you have to do is continue to breathe and you will live.

Perhaps my life is pointless, but you have to tell yourself once in your life, at least once, that at least you are alive. I've realized this since I could think humanly.

That is why I am still alive.[/size][/font][/color]

[Jesus Chicken]

The man's got it, right there...
We don't need a point, but people feel they need one. Therefore they created something that gave them a reason for being, something they felt they needed: Religion, afterlife, and a diety.
I live for my friendsm my family, music and to experience. No god is my reason for being.
I see no reason for committing suicide, but the only things that are keeping me here, are the things I said before.
All you people who beleive in god, and such, are you saying you live only so you can pass his message on, and then go to heaven? Is that your only driving force?
Personally I don't think that's enough reason to be here...But hey, to each thier own, right?

[Justin]

Haha, Mitch, my friend, it's not the Christian God you're speaking of my friend. Without His grace, we'd all be long dead. ;)

This is the point I've been trying to get across about my God. He, according to my faith, is [i]everywhere[/i] and in [i]everything[/i]. There was a topic a while back about some rare event in nature=(it had something to do with snow), and the topic originator said he believed it was the hand of God. There after, many told him how ridiculous a thought that was...things like that even if God were real, He wouldn't have had reason to do that.

Well, my point is that [i]God is everywhere[/i]. There is nothing that occurs on this Earth that isn't in His sight, and in his hands.

So, therefore, you [i]do[/i] need God to live.

As for your question Jesus Chicken: First and foremost, my main drive is to live for God and with God, yes. But all the things you mentioned are also reasons for me to keep on going.

-Justin

[Mitch]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] Well, Justin, I do not believe in God. Thus he is not everywhere and in everysingle thing for me. Thus you don't need God to live.

If you needed God to live--I'm talking about [i]needing[/i], which, is to say, you could not live without it. It's something that's necessary.

And believing in God is certainly not necessary. I'm living proof of that right here. I don't believe in God, and I'm alive.[/size][/font][/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] Well, Justin, I do not believe in God. Thus he is not everywhere and in everysingle thing for me. Thus you don't need God to live.

If you needed God to live--I'm talking about [i]needing[/i], which, is to say, you could not live without it. It's something that's necessary.

And believing in God is certainly not necessary. I'm living proof of that right here. I don't believe in God, and I'm alive.[/size][/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

If the end point of life is [i]death[/i], when you don't believe then I'd say you do need God to [i]live[/i].

Y'know, Mitch, there's a difference between life, as in thinking, moving about, eating, sleeping, and eventually dying, and life, as in, living in God.

They're not the same thing, and I don't even know how to begin going about describing the differences, so I won't try.

But the point is, God is far more than just blind hope and wanting some peice of eternity for comfort.

*directs you to my last post in this thread, in case you didn't read it*

[Mitch]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] Dan, I completely understand your stance--but just listen to mine.

I don't have God. Thus, I do not live for God. Thus I do not live in God, near God, or anywhere thus attained.

I live because I live. Mostly for those I love.[/size][/font][/color]

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray]
I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] hope to live. I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] God to live. I as well as you [i]do not need[/i] reason to live.

[i]That[/i] is where you are not me and I am not you.[/size][/font][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]Thank goodness...unless you don't believe in [i]that[/i], either.[/SIZE]

[Mnemolth]

It must be nice to believe in God.

To know that there is someone out there that understands and loves you. To know that there will be a day of judgement and that justice will be served. To know that your transgressions can be forgiven, regardless of their gravity. To know that your life has meaning and purpose. To know that you are not alone.

It must be nice. Like a sexy wet dream on a hot summer night.

To quote a phrase I'm sure most of you will be familiar with, "Unfortunately no one can be told what the Matrix is".

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]It must be nice to believe in God.

To know that there is someone out there that understands and loves you. To know that there will be a day of judgement and that justice will be served. To know that your transgressions can be forgiven, regardless of their gravity. To know that your life has meaning and purpose. To know that you are not alone.

It must be nice. Like a sexy wet dream on a hot summer night.

To quote a phrase I'm sure most of you will be familiar with, "Unfortunately no one can be told what the Matrix is". [/B][/QUOTE]

and to end that quote "you have to see it for yourself"

emphasis on the word "see"

[ianthestampede]

Hi... well i'm here to tell you what i came to believe.
The human race is a selfish creation of animals. which is possibly why we are all sitting here talking about questions that we may never know. Everything we know and see and feel is of course our own perspective on the world and everything else. Our logic is based on calculations that we made up, as a human race. The bible was created almost as i see it, a guide line on how to live a good life.
It's suprising to me that the bible refering to the creation of man with simple elements. But thats all we are made out of, elements put together. Well our body's at least. Someone told me that our souls are pure energy. if thats true, everything should have a soul. Which i wonder, if our "energy" goes somewhere special,does all the other matter's energy go somewhere special. If not why are we soo special? I'd really like to believe that there is somewhere special to go after we die. But it seems all we do is enrich the planet with more nutrients to continue the cycle of life. but i'm not gonna belittle with anyone else's beliefs cause everyone has a different perspective of the other world. this is only my opinion. i could type more but i have to leave shortly. so.... Peace!
X.x jigga what? XX.xx jigga who? x.X

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue][size=1]I knew I shouldn't have opened this thread. Too late now...

I believe in the soul. I don't think we are just bags of flesh. This is just one form of existence, like a change of clothes. So, yeah, I do think there is an afterlife... or that life continues, more accurately.

As for what's on the other side... hopefully good things.

Having said that, I've noticed that there are some people here that use even the remotest spiritual topic to make incredibly long and sermon-like posts that barely anybody has the patience to read, in order to convice everyone that they are right. How's that working for ya?[/color][/size]