Does mankind deserve to be here??

[DeathBug]

I've experienced an epipheny, reading this thread. Yes, humanity *does* deserve to be here. Would you like to know why?

Because we're the only species who would have this debate. We're the only species who would care that we're doing something wrong, and try to correct that. No other species on Earth is capable of caring about more than itself and (at most) its immediate offspring.

We're not perfect, but we can envision what perfection would be, and we can strive for it. That's what makes us worthy.

[Shinken]

Holy... Crap. I think we have a winner here, folks. Whoa. I guess I'd have to agree with Deathbug now. He's got a point. But still, my opinion is that some people deserve to be here, and others don't.

Hitokiri Battosai

[DarK DeatH]

There are no winners or losers at all... ¬_¬
But I will tell you one thing... Do you know how many forests humans destroyed? Do you know what Earth was like before us? Don't ask me if I do, because I don't, but I believe it was a MUCH more "natural" place... And much more beautiful also... Then we came and changed all that... If we deserve or not to be here, I am no one to judge that, but MY opinion is that we don't...

[DeathBug]

Okay...well, then I guess you'll have to leave, if you'd rather complain about the situation than fix it. So, where you gonna' go?

[Kwai]

Envisioning and striving for really does not make one worthy. No other species care. Why? Its because what they do keeps the balance of nature. What we did screwed up the balance of nature, and if things seem to be falling apart, its cuz we interfered and screwed it up. Whatever we envision, is something we destroyed ourselves. I say its our duty to return the planet before we polluted it. (I keep switching sides -_-)

[DeathBug]

It's not our duty. The duty of every species is to make more of the species. We're adept at that. We want to preserve and repair the planet, despite that fact that doing so often conflicts with our own intrests. That's what makes us deserving: our ability to think beyond our immediate selves, and to think about, in this case, the rest of the ecosystem.

[Kwai]

Yes but the wants and needs of the other organisms that inhabit this earth does not extend to the disruption of the ecosystem and extinction of other species. They are all balanced. Humans, however, though their intentions be for themselves or for the planet, has the ability to destroy the ecosystem and lead to the extinction of many species. Though we are able to think, we simply meddled in the balance, and now it is either we must fix it or we will die along with the rest.

[DarK DeatH]

Oh my God!? To think about the rest of the ecosystem!? You must be kidding there... I mean, when did humankind start to think about the rest of the ecosystem? I can say that never happened... Humankind thinks about itself and itself only... And don't tell me that I'm wrong there because you know as much as I do that that is the truth...

[DeathBug]

If humans only thought about themselves, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

As for 'balance', other lifeforms do not keep in balance by any sort of choice on their part. They don't care about the ecosystem, they care about eating. The only reason any sort of 'balnce' exists is because there's always some lifefrom to eat any lifeforms that get too populated or rowdy.

However, whenever a species gets smarter than the creature that prey on it, the environment changes. That's what humanity is doing. however, we're unique in the sense that we want to change iit back.

DarK, if you're not going to contribute intelligently to the conversation, please shut up.

[Kwai]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]
As for 'balance', other lifeforms do not keep in balance by any sort of choice on their part. They don't care about the ecosystem, they care about eating. The only reason any sort of 'balnce' exists is because there's always some lifefrom to eat any lifeforms that get too populated or rowdy. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes but they do keep the balance don't they? Even though some may argue that its because they don't think, they are actually more beneficial to the environment than us. Thinking may be a gift to us and a curse to the planet.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]However, whenever a species gets smarter than the creature that prey on it, the environment changes. That's what humanity is doing. however, we're unique in the sense that we want to change iit back.
[/B][/QUOTE]

So we are trying to have ourselves get eaten by predators again? Anyway, [b]wanting[/b] to change it back is pointless unless we [b]do[/b] it. Just saying, "We are planning to protect our environment by...." is pointless unless we go out and do it.

[DarK DeatH]

OK, let the flaming begin...
You tell me that I am the one not contributing intelligently to the discussion? Oh wow, you are the one saying the same thing over and over... "We deserve to be here because we are only a part of the environment evolution"... yeah right... Did you know that there was something called the "Kyoto Treaty" or something like that to reduce the polution released by vehicles and anything that involved fuel? And guess what? Your country didn't want to sign it because "it's one thing that influences your economy"... wow, very caring about others no? So you don't know how to fight back to what I said and ask me to shut up? Yeah, quite an intelligent being you are uh?

[DeathBug]

*There is no balance.* The environment is in constant flux. We're just the only species to notice. Species die out and are replaced all the time, weather patterns shift, techtonic plates move, it never ends. However, we cannot see beyond our current environment. The ecosystem would change with our without us; we're just smart enough to want it to remain the same.

I can't speak for anyon else, but I do what I can to make the environment cleaner than I found it. Millions of people do a hell of a lot more than I do, as well. Do'nt say we aren't doing anything about it, when we are.

DarK, I fail to see what politics has to do with anything. Humanity and the ecosystem surpass political decisions.

You keep saying that we do'nt deserve to be here; so does Metatron. The difference is that he explains his views clearly, whereas you've just repreated the same thing over and over.

We know your opinion, but you've failed to address anyone else's. Therefore, you are not contributing.

[Kwai]

And the constant flux of the environment keeps the equilibrium, which in turn leads to balance. We are interfereing with that, though for the better or for the worse, only time will tell(though its probably for the worse) And remember I am referring to humanity in general. Though you say millions try to make the environment better, there are even more who doesn't do anything about it, and doesn't care.

[DeathBug]

Humans keep the enviornment in balance just as well as any other creature. All creatures alther their environments; we just do it faster. Long before there were humans, thousands of species died because they exhausted their food supply. Didn't they upset the balance? Yet didn't everything keep going along fine?

True many people are incapable of seeing an inch beyond their own noses, but I'm not defending them; we're still the only species able to see the larger picture of the ecosystem.

[Kwai]

True, we alter the environment for the worse faster than the other species, but for the better, we are just as slow at it as the other species. We may intend to do it for the better, but unforeseen repercussions spring up and make it worse. And environment went along fine because it was all works of nature. Mankind creates things not originally found in nature, we dump it, and it takes years to decompose. We also created the hole in the ozone layer. We have done, and continue to damage the environment.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B] The ecosystem would change with our without us; we're just smart enough to want it to remain the same.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]I don't really agree with that. This isn't about stopping changes in the ecosystem's cycles or anything. In fact, I'd say that's a totally irrelevant issue. lol

This is about harming the environment - killing other species off and polluting land/air/water, etc...

I don't think people want the Earth to remain the same as such, they just want it to be healthy and to be, for lack of a better word, "normal" (ie: like it was before we polluted it in any way).[/color]

[DarK DeatH]

OK, if you wanna tell me that humans do good to the environment, you can keep your words to yourself then, because that's not smart...
I mean, animals kill other species, but they don't do enough to bring extinction to other species, do they? No. Also, the ozone layer hole is something made by US... Like stated by someone here already, the polution started, let's say, half century ago right? So, why DID it start at all? If humans were evolving, why would that happen? Wouldn't that be "walking backwards" instead of forward?

[Subversive]

At the time we had no idea what it was doing to the enviroment. Why was it continued: greed by entreprenuers, not trying to conform to the enviromently safe theories. They cared about themselves, thats all.

[DarK DeatH]

That's what I was trying to make that one there to understand... Mankind cares about itself only... But it seems like he doesn't want to understand that...

[DeathBug]

Metatron:

We do no damage the environment, we only change it in ways that are bad for ourselves and other creatures with similar needs to ourselves. The environment *can't* be damaged, because life can adapt and thrive in any circumstances on this planet. You know, like how they say that cockroaches can survive a nuclear blast? Similar to that. There is no 'bad' for the environment, there's only 'bad' for us. When we pollute, we only shoot ourselves in the foot.

James:
Our vantige point for 'normal' is a static viewpoint; because we cannot predict a dynamic ecosystem, any 'normal' view must be a regression by definition.

DarK: Animal species can't make other species extinct, because they have no concept of the word. They only want to do two things: eat and make more of themselves. They are not noble, they're ignorant.
Human evolution ois just that: *human* evolution. And evolution creates species that can survive in their ecosystem. However, humans have progressed, because had they not, all theyt would care about is food and reproducing, like every other creature on the planet. Pollution is an evolutionary throwback, because logically, any species that makes its enviornment uninhabitable is doomed. However, humanity can recognize and try to rectify its flaws, and that makes it unique in the animal kingdom.

[juna]

I can't believe this is the same thread from today.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DarK DeatH[/i]OK, let the flaming begin... //Words like those close doors\\.
Any who, when you Google the Kyoto Treaty, one article reads, "A strong majority of Americans have indicated their support for the Kyoto Treaty" [URL="http://www.americans-world.org/digest/global_issues/global_warming/gw2.cfm"][/URL]
Hopefully we can find a way to all work together, hopefully we can find a way to do a lot of things; but getting so passionate over one's own side of the argument, can blind one to the others side of the opinion. As [i]Deathbug[/i] stated and I would agree with: [quote]...we're the only species who would have this debate. We're the only species who would care that we're doing something wrong, and try to correct that. No other species on Earth is capable of caring about more than itself and (at most) its immediate offspring.
[/quote] We care, we reason, we have thoughts, spoken word and a desire to live on as a species; And hey, I'm pretty glad to be around. ^_^

[Subversive]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DarK DeatH [/i]
[B]That's what I was trying to make that one there to understand... Mankind cares about itself only... But it seems like he doesn't want to understand that... [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe in general. I do not think like this, I know alot of the people around me don't. Is the glass half empty, or half full? Is the mankind evil, or good natured and just making mistakes?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]
We're not perfect, but we can envision what perfection would be, and we can strive for it. That's what makes us worthy. [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly. I personally do not believe we evolved from "monkeys". But monkeys can't think like us, they can't type like this, they can't even see these colors. So- yeah we're higher then them.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DarK DeatH [/i]
[B]That's what I was trying to make that one there to understand... Mankind cares about itself only... But it seems like he doesn't want to understand that... [/B][/QUOTE]

"That one there"? I learned your name....:(

Anyway, allow me to reinterate: We would not be discussing this if we only cared about ourselves. You care, I care, that one there cares. Yes, many do not, but those are the same people who talk during movies or speed in school zones.

The only goal of any life form on the planet is to make more lifeforms. Anything else done towards any other purpose is extra.

Guess what? We're still the only species that thinks about anything else.

If you think that humankind (because womenkind is people, too) is basically evil, I can't change your mind. However, I think that's a pretty bleak outlook to have on life.

[DeathBug]

DarK, please stop bringing politics into the equation; it makes you loose your place as an unbiased, rational thinker.

If this debate makes anyone reading it think about what their place in the environment, then it's done enough. however, if you think it's pointless, why participate? Why not simply go off and contemplate how evil humanity is, or something?

What scientific evience do you have to back up your views? If it's the scientific viewpioint, there must be some.

Subversive:
When I used monkeys as an example, I wan't saying anything about evolution, I judt picked them at random because I like monkeys.

I especially like those little spider monkeys, with the long tails they can grab stuff with. You know, like the "Outbreak" monkey. those are cool.


Hey...there was another post after mine a few minutes ago...I don't know what happened, but I would'nt purposefully double post.

[DarK DeatH]

First things first: I will tell you this again dude, do not double post... [edit: this was supposed to go to Spider Dragon or whatever his new name is]
Now back on topic:
I know that there are still some people who care, for example, the Greenpeace corporation... BUT, that is the minority... It's the truth, you know it is, I know it is, everyone knows it is... Why is it that people sometimes throw their candy's plastic wrap on the ground and say "it's only one, won't make a difference"? It's that one that makes another one come and another one and another one and so on... Pople know that, but why can't they actually act instead of just know it? That's what I'm trying to say... There are those who do their part, but the ones who don't are the ones that stand out more, because they are more in number, and even if sometimes their intentions are not to cause the problem, they are also not thinking about helping so that the problem will be solved...