Feminine Masculinity

[James]

[color=#808080]I remember watching a TV show about the children of gay parents.

One guy was sitting in a feminine way and everyone assumed him to be gay. But he wasn't.

He pointed out that in his household, the traditional male/female expectations were shattered. And thus, he was never bound by a particular social restraint (what it is or isn't acceptable for a man/woman to wear, etc).

And I found that interesting. It singlehandedly proves that you can't really "act gay" or "act straight". Being butch as a male means nothing -- you could be the most rampant homosexual on the planet and be more butch than Arnie. lol

At the same time, you could be very delicate and feminine yet still be completely heterosexual. Society tends to enforce these kind of "policies" about what is acceptable for men/women and what isn't.

Basically, I don't think any of it matters. I've known gay people to be very masculine and straight people to be utterly feminine and wimpy. lol Really, it makes no difference. It's all down to the individual, not to the gender or sexuality.[/color]

[Fall]

Well quite frankly, I see it as "not normal". I'm honest. I couldn't wax any part of my body, pluck my eyebrows, or wear makeup for sure. I don't know any boy who would. They might when they grow to be 30 or something, but right now no boy I know would do anything like it, aswell as me.

That's me. Of course, you can probably see that more than half of my opinion is basically because of stereotype that surrounds me.

[Subversive]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Juuthena [/i]
[B]
[color=ff00cc] [size=1]Not this girl. I actually prefer guys who actually care about the way they look.
[/color] [/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

What if he just likes to look like that? I would assume you would think it would be OK for one to let his hair grow the way he wants if you think its OK for him to shave/wax/etc. Do I assume wrong? :/sarcastic stupidity:

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]If I'm seeing a guy, he'd [i]better[/i] get rid of back and excessive chest hair before I have to touch or look at it. Blech.

I think guys wearing black eye-liner are sexy...[/color]

[Blackroseoni]

Myself I tend to enjoy acting more efemminet then a 'normal' guy acts. I like to be out there, trying new things, and tend to try and make myself look more 'girly' I'm not wholly gay, but I like boi's as much as I do girls, so I guess the way I act is 'gay'. But honestl;y, alot of perfectly straight men act 'gay'. especially in the music and television industries. Theres a big diffrence between acting gay and being gay, from my viewpoint.

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkgreen][font=gothic]I am a self-professed goth, and as following, I love guys in makeup. Long black hair, long black skirt, heavy jewellery and graceful fingers.... oh, the fingers....

My boyfriend is a God for such things, and I love him for everything he is. But he doesn't want to wear a skirt, and all goth chicks I know go crazy over that sort of thing. Feminine guys are so... beautiful.

I don't go for the whole hairy, footballer, testosterone-saturated guy that most chicks my age at school drool over.

But please - don't shave between your eyebrows! If someone offers to pluck your bridge, or even wax it, take the opportunity. The nanosecond of pain will be worth the next three months girls aren't laughing at you. Stubble on the inner edges of eyebrows says that you are embarassed about your eyebrows - if you wax or pluck, no one will know you even have a problem. If you count it as a problem, that is....
[/font][/color]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]Yeah, I'd have to agree. Gothic guys are in a class all their own. *swoon* And if I ever see a really masculine one, it won't be the same at all...

Anyone ever notice that the men in Anne Rice books are typically feminine? I think that's when I started getting attracted to less macho types. She makes them so sexy... [/color]

[nezzyjean]

I have no problem with any of that until it came to makeup. But it depends on what kind of make up it is. Liek concealer isnt that bad on guys...but any thing else is pretty weird.

[Blackroseoni]

Ughh...Anne rice,,,can't stand her...theres jsut something about the way she writes that I can't take. Dunno why really, somethign subconcious. Its nothing to do with the guys...its...I dunno *laughs8 but anyways, back on topic.I think goths are stereotyped way to much, for good and bad...I mean...to be a goth isn't to dress all in black and try to look feminine...any type of person could do that...its more of a mindset, jsut liek ebing a skater or a prep is. I jsut think everything has gotten to generalized as of late.

[Jamvis]

I figure that men should refrain from such activities however should be well groomed... *goes back to playing nodeka*

[RPGchick]

i think being too hairy is gross. no one needs a unibrow. as for the makeup thing it all depends. if it is just some foundation,thats okay, but if it is the whole chabang (eyeliner, eyeshadow, blush...) thats just kinda weird.

[Pressure]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lady Macaiodh [/i]
[B][color=darkblue]Yeah, I'd have to agree. Gothic guys are in a class all their own. *swoon* And if I ever see a really masculine one, it won't be the same at all...

Anyone ever notice that the men in Anne Rice books are typically feminine? I think that's when I started getting attracted to less macho types. She makes them so sexy... [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=purple][size=1]Agreed! Lestat... -drool-[/color][/size]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Ravenstorture [/i]
[b]I am a self-professed goth, and as following, I love guys in makeup. Long black hair, long black skirt, heavy jewellery and graceful fingers.... oh, the fingers....

My boyfriend is a God for such things, and I love him for everything he is. But he doesn't want to wear a skirt, and all goth chicks I know go crazy over that sort of thing. Feminine guys are so... beautiful.

I don't go for the whole hairy, footballer, testosterone-saturated guy that most chicks my age at school drool over.[/b][/quote]

[color=purple][size=1]Amen.

Just reading this makes me yearn for [URL=http://www.facethejury.com]Opticonboi, AVRILxHunter, and Dyingingrey[/URL]. Granted, those three fly in the face of the argument that many people are trying to make, in saying that feminine masculinity has nothing to do with sexual preference, but I can't help it. Boys in eyeliner and bracelets turn me on. Granted also that I haven't a chance in hell with any of those three, owing in large part that 2 are homosexual and 1 is bisexual, and also that they all live in Florida doesn't help.

But moving right along.. Ignore all of the above.. If you'd like my [i]actual[/i] opinion on feminine masculinity.. Read below.. ^.^;

First off, I am appaled at what was said by Mnelmoth. Regardless of the fact that I am a girl, that was intensely, [b]intensely[/b] offensive to me. It also sets on an intense wave of pity for you, to think that you would be that close minded and ill-educated. The same for cloricus, minus the pity streak.

What you do to your body signals nothing of your sexual preference. Chris is openly homosexual, and does not alter himself by wearing makeup or plucking his eyebrows, or waxing off body hair. Yet, an undeniably heterosexual, Tommy Lee, does wax off his body hair and wear makeup. As does Marilyn Manson, also heterosexual.

The assumption that any of these three or more things, denotes a homosexual in any way, is utterly vacuous.

Also Mne, I agree with Roxie and Lady M, abnormal body hair is not sexy, at all.[/color][/size]

[Shikaku Kitoku]

Personaly, I think if you call plucking your eyebrows, waxing body hair, or wearing make up "gay", you need to be smacked with a 2x4 for continueing the stereotype. I pluck my eyebrows, wax parts of my AND wear make up...but I'm not gay. I'm not a goth, but I'm just me. Making myself look half dead and sexy is my thing.

So before any of you football jocks want to come in this thread and say "That's gay!", learn NOT to continue stereotypes and learn to accept people for who they are and how they express themselves.

Here's a little scenario: I'm wearing eyeliner, white pwoder on my face to blanch it, my eyebrows are plucked and my arms and legs are waxed...I go to a football game and you and all of your friends are there. I start talking to you and your friends. What do you do?

Now think on that, because the most common answer is based off of stereotypes and it pisses me off. Say something to me about, it doesn't matter. i'm giving my opinion, and if I've offended anybody I apologize to that fact.

[PiroMunkie]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve[/i]
[b]Wearing women's clothing (even though more straight guys do that than gay lol)[/b][/quote][size=1]Shhhhh ... >.> Let us keep that on the down low, lol. Not really, I do not care. Girls love to dress me up on occasion, and I am not one to stop them. I have only ever done it for a long amount of time twice. The first time was okay, but it was nothing specific. The second I was in a cheerleader outfit... o_O Very anti-me in general, but that is what acting is all about, lol. I kept hitting on this one guy, which freaked him out a lot. Especially when I made a lip print on a napkin and gave it to him... ^__^;;[/size][quote][i]Originally posted by Ravenstorture[/i]
[b][color=green]... long black skirt...[/color][/b][/quote][size=1]Interesting you should mention that... for quite some time now I have had that in my "to get" list, but I do not get out much or even know where to look... Perhaps I should speak to some of my female friends...


As for this topic in general, though, at first the title was really misleading. I thought it was talking about how some females might be considered too masculine... but this is pretty much the same thing, just vice versa.

Anyway, I do not pluck my eyebrows simply because I do not think it needs to be done. I shall say that I have very little hair across the bridge, but it has never really been commented on because it is not really that obvious unless you are actually looking. I do not wax because I am not that hairy of a guy, and probably am never going to be. Though, I do not really care... some of my friends found it odd that practically no obvious hair grows on my upper arm; it just kind of fades out after my forearm. As for make-up, hell, I shall do it if I want to. I believe I have spoken on this before, I usually wear make-up on special occasion, but that is probably just because that is the only time it is ever really presented. I would do it any time if the opportunity was given.

My body is rather feminine in general, which makes cross-dressing a lot easier, lol. When I was dressed like a cheerleader as I previously mentioned, I had the skirt pulled down just a little bit to show my mid-drift, and girls kept complaining that mine was better than theirs, lol. They also complain that I look better in make-up than them and such... So really, I have come to the conclusion that if it was not for my reproductive system and my adam's apple, I would be a woman. ^__^

I obviously have no problem with guys who do the kind of stuff this thread talks about. If anything, I tend to get irritated by those who do not, or at least are not willing to try.[/size]

[Mnemolth]

I've tried really hard to not make this post, but alas, enough is enough. The following may offend some people, so if you're easily offended don't read on.

For those of you who didn't understand my initial post, and that's, from what I gather most of you, here's a breakdown.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]In a word - gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

But a [i]real[/i] man wouldn't pluck his eyebrows, he'd let them grow wild. He certainly wouldn't wax any part of his body. So what if his back is hairer than a gorilla, back hair is sexy. Just ask any girl! :D [/B][/QUOTE]

"In a word - gay". That's short and sweet to grab your attention. It also captures a sentiment many here share but will not express publicly. It a stereotype.

And its followed immediately by "Not that there's anything wrong with that", which of course is a homage to Sienfield. And what does it mean? It means people are hypocrites. Nobody wants to say they subscribe to any stereotypical viewpoints, everyone wants to pretend we're all so rational and reasonable people, but in reality that's all just bull. We all pretend we don't have a problem with gay people, but in the same statement, we're make it a point to stress that we're not gay.

You can see the same thing happening in this thread (no doubt people will start making other excuses once they read this post). People say there's nothing wrong with doing all those things but they STRESS, and strongly so, that THEY don't do it. Trying to have their cake and eat it too. :rolleyes:

And just in case you didn't get it was done with tongue firmly in cheek, I even put a ;) to be obvious. And I didn't stop there. I went on to say "But a [i]real[/i] man wouldn't pluck his eyebrows, he'd let them grow wild. He certainly wouldn't wax any part of his body. So what if his back is hairer than a gorilla, back hair is sexy. Just ask any girl!".

The first line shows the stupidity, in my opinion, of the macho ethos. And if you didn't get that, you should have got the last two lines. And if you had got them you would have understood that the whole post was mocking itself.

Its a universal well known fact that back hair is one of the biggest turn-offs for girls. Generally speaking, girls don't like a mass of body hair on their man. There is a substantial minority who do, but only sparingly, and we're talking here about the chest. VERY FEW GIRLS, IF ANY AT ALL, like their guys to be wearing a rug on their backs!

So as soon as I said that back hair is sexy, that was a dead giveaway. And even if that didn't sink in, my last line, "Just ask ANY girl", should have made it as plain as daylight.

See? Once I explain a post, once I've dissected it and analysed it to death, it takes ALL the fun out of the post. THAT's why I don't want to do it. THAT's why I didn't want to explain myself. I would have thought someone sooner or later would have got it and said something, but apparently not.

I am of course human and I make mistakes, yet, here's a hint - and you can take it as condescendingly as you like, I don't particularly care - if I make a post, especially a short one, that seems moronic, then there's a good chance you're missing something.

[Corey]

I didn't really take it seriously, but I also didn't see the comedy in it.

Some people just have that state of mind. I don't hold it against them. Others shouldn't either. It's just how they think.

[Manic Webb]

You know, I thought about public cross-dressing once. My old high school had a "Powderpuff Game" where girls play football and guys dress as cheerleaders and learn a cheer. It was the Senior class vs. the Junior class. It looked kinda fun (and funny) when I saw a lot of people doing it during my junior year, that I almost considered signing up to be a cheerleader during my Senior year. But alas, I didn't have the legs for it. :p

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shikaku Kitoku [/i]
[B]Here's a little scenario: I'm wearing eyeliner, white pwoder on my face to blanch it, my eyebrows are plucked and my arms and legs are waxed...I go to a football game and you and all of your friends are there. I start talking to you and your friends. What do you do?[/B][/QUOTE]

You're not one of those freaks (no offense) who paint their faces (and sometimes beer-belly) the team's colors, are you? :p

Seriously, it'd have to depend on what you were talking about. I'm already hesitant to talk to people [i]not[/i] wearing eyeliner and face-powder (I lack them there "social skills"), so you'd have to say something I want to talk about. And I'm not going to lie to you; if I notice your face is powdered, I'm going to ask why.

And again, waxing doesn't bother me. I think only a handful of people in this thread have said something against waxed legs...

[Duo Maxwell]

I see nothing wrong with a guy doing these things, infact I quite like feminine or androgynous guy's (this explains my obsession with Brian Molko :wigout: ). If I walk down the street and see a guy with some sort of make-up on I'll probably assume their gay or something, but love how they don't care what thers think about them wearing make-up. And more then likely the way they applied it, as far as I know I'm probably the only person I know who'd go out with a guy who wore chicks clothes, put on make-up, waxed, etc.

I think people should butt-out of the personal activities of others and stop judging people for what they wear, and do.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]You're right Mne. Some people just [i]won't[/i] get your humor. Hmmm... I wonder why.

Because it's an entirely new level of insulting, stereotyping, and showing real ignorance. Also why? The majority of Otakuboards is in their teenage years. And I think I speak for most teenagers when I say it's a stupid way of saying things. I don't want your hidden messages or your sarcasm. Just be plain honest for God's sake. Life's too short to sit around and figure out what the hell some guy on a message board is trying to convey. Most of us DO have lives. ^_~

And I know you'll say something like "It's my right to say these things in the way I do" and you are absolutely correct. You are 110% correct. And there's no doubt you'll keep on doing it. But just keep in mind that if you keep on doing that, you'll have to explain more and more of your posts to members who aren't going to sit there and spend twenty minutes figuring out what you're attempting to convey to us. Guess you can't have [i]your[/i] cake and eat it, either.[/color]