Gaming What makes a mature game?

[Shinmaru]

I apologize if this has been a thread before, because I'm kinda new here.

Anyway, being a Nintendo fan and all, all I hear about is Nintendo's reputation for making 'kiddie' games. This got me to thinking; what exactly would the criteria be for a game to be considered mature? For example, Conker's Bad Fur Day is rated M, but throughout the game there is bathroom humor and other things like that, so I consider it to be an 'immature' mature game (not that I'm taking away from the game, because it's a really good game). On the opposite side of the spectrum, you see Zelda: Wind Waker, with the cel-shaded graphics. It looks kiddie, but the gameplay is very deep, and this is what I would consider to be a mature game. Anyone have an opinion to counteract mine? I'd love to read them.

[Epitome]

I think a Mature game is made up by (1)Blood or very graphica and gory viloence. For example Resident Evil. (2) A mature game could be called Mature for maybe sexual "influence" or "talk" if you will. And (3) A game can be made Mature by fighting with " number 1." But I dont think Windwaker would be made Mature. It has a deep gaming to it, but not too viloent or anything.

[EMU]

Yeah, just because a game has a deep story line does not mean that it is a "mature" game as such. A more mature person is more likely to appreciate the in depth story line, but when ppl refer to a mature game, they are talking about how there is mature content in it. Like sex, or drugs, or gambling, or violence or any other sought of things that are usually reserved for when a person is over the legal age. :)

[Shinmaru]

Yeah, I think that these are the opinions on what most people believe make a mature game. Also, I wasn't saying that Wind Waker would be made Mature, it's just that more mature people could probably appreciate the depth to the game. But you probably knew that already. I agree that the games with sex, violence, and such can definetely be mature if they're used right and not just there to give the game some shock value.

[James]

[color=#808080]It really does depend on what you mean by "mature". If you mean something "adult" (ie: violent, sexual), games like GTA and such are going to fit that category.

However, I think maturity is something else. Running around and shooting people at will is not something I consider to be [i]mature[/i]. I would class a game like Silent Hill or Eternal Darkness as being mature. Both games require a mature thought process in order to be fully appreciated - they are deeper than their action, so to speak.

Maturity in games really isn't based on violence. Just look at games like BMX XXX or Carmageddon. Neither game is what I'd classify as "mature", yet both are "adult" titles.

Really, I think you find that a [i]lot[/i] more kids are playing these games than adults. Why? Because I think most adults can recognize something that's passe, whilst kids are always interested in the forbidden fruit - or in other words, something that is above their age level. Kids don't care if there is anything underneath that violence; if they see some blood and breasts, they're happy.

So, this is really a multi-layered question. Generally I think mature games are games that [i]require[/i] maturity to really understand and appreciate to their fullest extent. In that sense, I think all platforms equally posess a myriad of mature games.[/color]

[Shinmaru]

Now this is the opinion that I agree with totally. As James said, mature games are not those that just have gore, nudity, etc. The games that require maturity and thinking to get through are the real mature games in my opinion. For some reason, the game that keeps playing through my mind when I think of this is (sorry for the non-Nintendo reference in the Nintendo board) is Ico. Ico makes the player think through everything and search to find the neccessary paths through the castle. You're not just beating up on bad guys to beat the game. You have to use your mind to get out of sticky situations, and it's kind of like real life (although most people don't have a set of horns and a really pale girlfriend in real life).

[AzureWolf]

[quote]Ico makes the player think through everything and search to find the neccessary paths through the castle. You're not just beating up on bad guys to beat the game. You have to use your mind to get out of sticky situations, and it's kind of like real life (although most people don't have a set of horns and a really pale girlfriend in real life).[/quote] Ah, that sucks. I hate thinking. Why do you think I play video games? That's the time my brain takes a break, which, during the summer, is more often than naught, haha. In all seriousness, though, I guess I'll have to check Ico out. It sounds very interesting.

James is 100% right in his catagorization (is that a word?). He's already said everything I would have said. However, in the hopes to add something to this discussion, I would just like to say that Nintendo seems to trek into new frontiers and is praised and ridiculed each time for doing so. "Kiddie" is just the latest label for Nintendo. We've got Windwaker: a game that takes cel-shading and creates a breathtaking gaming atmosphere. Sailing in Windwaker is surprisingly fun (dare I say, invigorating), and many people will refuse to experience it just because they are afraid to stray away from the norm or what they are used to. Almost makes you feel sad for those close-minded people... Yet again, my roommate is one of these people who refuses to accept Windwaker as a Zelda game solely because of the look (haha, my roommate seems to be a great source of angst).

As long as there's no harm in it, trekking and trying new things makes you a better person. New and unique gaming experiences are no different. Which reminds me, Jet Set Radio Future: a recommendation to open-minded individuals for a truly great gaming experience.

[Shinmaru]

A very good point. I know a lot of people who refuse to even talk about Nintendo and the GameCube because "it's for little kids." It's this kind of narrow-minded thinking that frustrates me sometimes (though, it never gets me angry, because I don't take gaming that insanely seriously). Come to think of it, Sega is another company that gets bashed and made fun of on a regular basis. It's sad to see the two most innovative companies in the business (and, might I add, the two companies that saved gaming), put down so often. It makes me sad, indeed.

[Semjaza]

Well regardless of what I consider mature or not... The general opinion seems to be games that are targeting an older audience without any consideration of those in the younger/family audience.

It doesn't have to mean gore or sex or drugs... however, it often does simply because people just don't equate those things with children or family activities. It can obviously be mixed in with intelligent storylines or good gameplay though. Silent Hill, Eternal Darkness, Deux Ex and Metal Gear Solid are all very good examples of mature orientated games that I feel got it right.

Really though, sometimes you don't want to sit and think or be provoked in some manner. You just want to shoot stuff and that's that. I think these games are stuck in the mature category for obvious reasons... simply because they are the equivalent of slasher films. You don't send little kids to see them, as ridiculous as they may be. The same with Conker's Bad Fur Day, which while immature, is still in the same category as South Park or Beavis and Butthead... something I doubt most small kids should be seeing heh.

Whether or not kids are the ones buying these games is really another story and you could go on about it for quite some time. Obviously, I'd say a good deal of people here at OB are under 17, yet they still watch a good deal of R rated movies and play M rated games. There is no avoiding it.

So, in relation to Nintendo... Did Nintendo have a lack of this? Well on GC and N64, I'd say no. However, they always have been stuck into this stereotype for a couple reasons.

The main one is that they have always made family friendly games. On the NES perhaps it wasn't really obvious. They had so much 3rd party support, and the only competitor was basically ripped apart in Japan and the US (Sega with it's Sega Master System, which did well in Europe actually).

When Sega brought out the Genesis/Mega Drive they were smart enough to hit upon this and release things that took advantage of Nintendo's only real weakness. The fact that they didn't do games that simply appealed to people that had since grown up. People who wanted great sports games or gritty looking characters. Sure, Sega had their family stuff, but they mixed it up far more than Nintendo ever did.

This was never really a problem until Mortal Kombat. I'm sure most people remember Nintendo making Midway censor this thanks to the requests of parents and the image problems they thought they would receive. Of course, this backfired. Sega became the cool system here. The SNES was the equivalent of Sesame Street. You might not think so now, but go look at any kids/teen magazine... Nintendo was just not cool.

This bit them in the ***. Censoring games like Wolfenstein 3D and others... while Sega was allowing nearly anything. Nintendo wound up backing off and allowing the gore in MK2, which obviously helped them quite a bit. Sega lost their edge in that aspect... However, I'd say the damage was done. Nintendo would always be a kids toy company.

And so Sony played off this and now MS is playing off this. Nintendo makes child's games. They make toys. They don't care about electronics because they don't over a complete multimedia experience that plays DVDs and washes your dishes... and whatever other crap you can come up with.

So is this something Nintendo can get out of? Eventually. N64 was lucky enough to have support from a few companies that were putting out more adult orientated games... meanwhile, Nintendo was still releasing family orientated stuff. And while they were great and sometimes amazing games, it wasn't helping this image they have been forced into.

This image exists simply thanks to Sega, Sony and MS's PR departments and advertising. People bought into it, and so developers have to as well. They have to follow their consumer base, whether it's real or simply assumed.

Recently, Iwata (the current president of Nintendo) has addressed this and is aware of their image and hopes to even it out some... and I think in a way he is on the right track. Nintendo has done things lately that never would have happened a few years back. They are strengthening 3rd party ties despite lower game sales on the GC by comparison. They are securing exclusives and games from companies that haven't touched Nintendo consoles in several years.

So I think it can be fixed... However, the only one that can do it is Nintendo. They have the games coming, and their 2nd parties are helping out in the maturity department. It's really just a matter of capitalizing on it.

I think their main problem at this point here in America is their advertising agency, Leo Burnett. The agency is simply awful... I mean they greenlighted that Super Mario Sunshine commercial lol.

It's a long process... and perhaps Nintendo can do something about it... perhaps not. I guess we'll see.

[Shinmaru]

Another good point. I must admit that I am guilty of just wanting to sit down and blow the crap out of things sometimes (usually during the school year when I have a bunch of projects and stuff to do). I don't have Agent Under Fire and such for no reason, after all. I also have to admit that it's true that there are a lot of people who don't want to really think hard when they play games (I believe that there was someone in this very post who said that they don't like it). There are lots of games made just to capitalize on people's need for some occasional violence, gore, etc.

It is pretty much the general opinion right now that mature games simply target an older audience. But, as we all know, there is a decent share of the younger audience playing these games (I should know, seeing as I've been playing some of these since I turned 13). The problem I have with MS and Sony capitalizing on saying that Nintendo is just a "kids company," is that a good portion of their fan bases are children whose parents bought them that system (though, I think that Sony has a bigger child fan base than MS does). It's not like all the kids flock to Nintendo's systems and totally ignore Sony and MS. But I'm getting a little off topic here, I think I just stick to mature games right now.

[Charles]

Yeah, the thing that people have to remember is that there is a difference between mature [i]themes[/i] and mature [i]games[/i]. It's hard to say anything that hasn't been said, but I'll post anyway.

Plot-wise, mature games explore relationships, religion, politics, discrimination and death--an overall awareness of the world. Titles like [i]Xenogears, Grandia 2, Final Fantasy X,[/i] and aforementioned titles like [i]Ico, MGS,[/i] and [i]Eternal Darkness[/i] all explore mature themes--but they don't exploit them for marketing purposes.

When someone dies in a game like the ones mentioned above, it means something. If two people have a relationship, it's not about breasts flopping all over the place or unlocking sexual innuendo. The story is told on a level that allows you to appreciate the complexities of the relationship. Even in [i]Ico[/i], there's just something to appreciate about two innocent children holding hands, while trying to escape certain death.

Games like [i]Conker's Bad Fur Day[/i] may have swear words and tongue-in-cheek humor, but at the end of the day, it's really juvenile. It doesn't take an adult to cuss or tell toilet jokes. Adults are aware. That's really what separates children from adults. Today's children are already experienced in sex, drinking, smoking, and violent behavior. It takes an adult to understand the complexities of life, and to make certain connections.

As games become a more visual sort of entertainment, it becomes easier to compare them with films. Take a look at [i]American Pie.[/i] It's [b]laden[/b] with sexual themes and vulgarities, but it's obviously not mature--and it's not pretending to be. If anything, it plays off of teenage fantasies and stereotypes. Now, compare it to something like [i]Monster's Ball[/i]. That film features explicit sex scenes--but its plot is deep and believable. It takes a certain understanding to appreciate it. I'm sure that you could also make clear comparisons by exploring cheesy crime films and comparing them with [i]The Godfather.[/i]

So, I guess my point is that a mature game is one that asks the gamer to interpret a plot that doesn't rely on cheap gags or exploitation of adult themes and draw their own conclusions from it. Or a mature game is one that challenges the player with clever and challenging puzzles.

In the end, I guess it's up to the individual to make the distinction of what they believe is mature or not. I personally think that something like [i]South Park[/i] is mature in many ways because it contains many underlying political and religious messages, and it satires them in clever ways. And I think that those are things that are aimed at adults, things that children won't really understand. You know, even if they do understand the juvenile jokes and swearing on the surface.

Oh, and to reply in part to what Semjaza said, the illusion that Nintendo makes "toys" is still apparent just by looking at the GameCube itself. Mine is a purple box with a handle on it. Hopefully, the next console will retain the simplicity of the GameCube, while rocking a better design. As it stands, the GC really does look like a toy.

[Brasil]

It's been a while since I've been on these boards, but Charles sent me this thread.
Most posts have agreed that a game is made mature by the maturity level of the gamers playing it.

I believe James made a distinction between "mature" and "adult." I like to think that Mature means With More Intelligence, while Adult has that...offensive air.

Conker was mentioned. Granted, it's loud, vulgar, pompous at times, gory, and offensive, but it's such an intelligent satire masked by vulgarity. Many of the reviews I read have praised it for its ingenuity and said how if gamers can get past the initial shock, they'll find a most enjoyable game.

The fact that only mature (READ: experienced and knowledgeable) people will notice so many of the film references and societal satire (South Park, too. Comment in a bit). How many 13 year olds would get the Dr. Strangelove reference, in the form of the goofy weasel scientist? I was very pleased when I watched the finale.

If Peter Sellers had been turned into a weasel, he'd be in Conker. Surely, today's Matrix-raised, adrenaline-pumped, flash-bang audience would rave over the Lobby level (which was great to play, of course!) and most would notice the Saving Private Ryan sequence, but I'm not too certain that they'd realize they'd just been exposed to 30 year old films.

And the fact that Conker is a satire of his very genre is remarkable. It broke the mold of conventional 3D platformers. The enemies are ridiculous (A giant lump of Poo that is really a T-800), the protagonist an anti-hero and certainly not loveable (as opposed to Mario or Crash), and a main purpose to get rich (as opposed to rescuing a girlfriend or saving the world).

The only other platformer that comes close to this, IMO, is a new development. Gamepro had an exclusive in the last issue. Dangerous Animals...or something...something with "Animals" in the title. Their protagonist is a weasel chained to a cute, helpless bunny (the bunny is used as a weapon, of course), who both need to escape from the lab at which they're being tested on. They do not need to collect any coins or jewels; they simply need to escape, destroy equipment and slaughter guards on the way out. Mature ideas, yes. Adult presentation, definitely.

South Park is an interesting show. Many people are turned off by it and downright refuse to watch it due to the risque humor. But there is so much societal satire that young viewers would not appreciate. When Cartman has become a conglomerous monster, Kyle infiltrates to shut him down and a 2001 Space Odyssey parody ensues. Some ideas in South Park are over the heads of the Jackass audience that the show shares.

Jackass. Is this mature? No. Adult. It's juvenile entertainment watching visuals of idiot pain.

Beavis And Butthead. Again, mindless entertainment. Good if you need a quick laugh, of course.

Simply, in my opinion, in order to ascertain if a form of entertainment is mature or inappropriate (or a combination), we need to first examine the root of the ideas presented in it, regardless of the presentation. Because isn't that what most people defend themselves with? That they don't care about the presentation if the gameplay or substance or plot is there.

I hope that made sense.

Thanks.

EDIT: I looked up the name of the new platformer starring a weasel and bunny. It's tentatively titled CHAIN GANG.

[liamc2]

Ooo...deep conversation.

When you think about it, 'mature' is defined by whether or not if a kid plays it will he/she either A: ask awkward questions from parents or B: be somehow scarred for life (many subcatagories here)

But theres more, Halo, for instance, is MA 15/18+ but it is an awesome game, and the violence is 'tasteful.'

Compare it to Turok: Evolution, which is littered with blood guts and gore, not to mention Nintendo 64 graphics (I apologise to fans, but seriously, it does). The violence is tasteless, look at the opening scene for instance, with the throwing axe. Thats just plain grotty.

But hey, both games have the same rating (well, there abouts).

In my opinion Turok is bloody for the sake of being bloody, and...well...gross...but meanwhile Halo, with its blue alien blood with pleasant splatter effects is cool.

Yet both have the same rating.

I guess it all comes down to some fine line that the rating boad follows and where it's drawn.

Again, all of the above is my opinion, and yes, I apologise about mentioning X-Box in the hallowed halls of the Nintendo forum, but I really found this thread interesting..

[James]

[color=#808080]Also, it's interesting to note the whole idea of [i]mature gamers[/i].

I mean, my younger brother and his friends are all into games like GTAIII and such. And that's fine. But I tend to find that people my age aren't falling over themselves for GTAIII and its equivalents.

It doesn't mean that our taste is somehow superior or anything, it's just a difference in perception. I mean, I consider myself to be a mature person. And yet, I'm quite happy to play games like Mario and Zelda. By the logic of some gamers, that in itself would make [i]me[/i] immature or childish. In reality, the [i]reason[/i] I can play these games and enjoy them is that my maturity allows me to enjoy and appreciate the artistic/creative aspects of the game. So, in that sense, I'm less concerned about how "gay" the Link model looks, and more concerned about how the game feels to play, how the puzzles are structured and how the atmosphere feels.

Also, I'm not in a position where I aspire to do adult things. I mean, when you're a kid...all you want to do is drive a car and move out of home and be independent. But when you're an adult with responsibilities, maybe you are quite happy to step back into your childhood, you know? At least, that's how I feel.

Of course, I'm quite happy to play games like Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid, as well. These games are no less artistic and creative than Zelda - they just achieve creative outcomes in a different way.

Bleh, I don't know if that even makes any sense. Chalk this one up to being way too tired when posting. ~_^[/color]

[Shinmaru]

Whew...this is a lot of stuff, even for me!

I think the point about South Park is very well informed. There is a lot of "potty humor" littered in the show, but there is even more smart, satirical writing that adults would appreciate.

When I think of that, I think of Kevin Smith's movies, and Dogma in particular. Obviously, Jay and Silent Bob appeal to the people looking for a quick laugh, but the movie is full of smart writing and has the underlying social and religious messages that manage to make you think (well, it made me think, anyway).

But I'm getting off topic again. I think how mature a game is depends on how mature the player is. If someone plays Conker's Bad Fur Day, and only responds to the vulgarity, then it would be an immature game. However, if the person who plays the game is mature and responds to the satirical elements of the plot, then the game can be quite mature. It all depends on the perspective of the gamer, I suppose.

[Spikey]

[COLOR=purple]I think that the quilities for having a Game being rated mature would be Sexual Content, and a lot of blood and very gorey.Your looking at it how it would be if a kid played it. They wouldn't understand it etc.. And how the storyline is dramatic.

For example: Kingdom Hearts is one of those games that is very dramatic, showing evil, and talking about stuff a kid would not understand. But I don't think a kid would really think about it. You see, the rating company does not look at it like that, they look at it if it has stuff that's aimed for adults, like gore etc..

Now you could, say the game was a mature game, but the rating company does not look at it the same way you do. Though it is an interesting statement you made, but I'm sure they don't look at it that way. Atleast I hope not.

James, I agree totally. Kids now my age are into GTA Vice City more than anything else, and that's good, because I read somewhere that shooting games are the best things for children, because it gets there hand and eye cordnation devolp faster. They use these kind of gun games in the military, that help with your hand and eye cordnation.

I don't consider myself fully mature yet. Depends on how you look at mature. As in over 18, gone through pubirty mature then I don't think so, but acting my age mature yes.

The first mature game I played was probably Crusaders: NO Remorese, probably the worst game ever, anyway, I didn't consider it to be mature. It didn't have enough stuff in it to be mature. The worst thing in it was killing, and shooting other people nothing more really. Although I think it had more to it, I hated it so much, I didn't even want to go to the second level.

I also play the Mortal Kombat games that kids are into nowadays. I enjoy playing them, and yes they are, and should be inteded for mature gamers, but it depends on how you look at it. If you can withstand body parts being cutt off and a lot of blood, and your mature enough to handle that, then I think you can play Mortal Kombat games.

It all really depends if you can handle the stuff, if you can handle Silent Hill 3, then you can play Silent Hill 3, if you can handle Clock Tower, then you can play Clock Tower. Some people can't handle the horrer, and the blood and stuff. But that's okay, that just means your not ready.

I hope all of the stuff I wrote mad any, and some sense thanks for reading my long thought on this topic.[/color]

[Brasil]

A bit Off-Topic my next thought is, but here goes:

Did anyone catch South Park last night on Comedy Central? It was on around...I would say 12 midnight EST. It was hilarious and featured a great satirical element of video game obsession. Cartman had found a "feminine item" of Stan's mother in the bathroom trash; in order to buy the kids off, Stan's mom bought them the newest video game system...I can't remember the exact name but it was something like, "Arocka 3000 Gamesphere."

In keeping with the tradition of new system hysteria, the boys lie to their parents (Kyle telling his mom that Stan is suffering a deep depression from a date rape memory) so that they can play Gamesphere all weekend long. The episode really reminds me of how I was when I was their age. NES and Sega Genesis were my vices.

I also liked the image of the Gamesphere. It was shaped like Kenny, featured a nice Xbox-ian green hue, but the controllers and name parodied Nintendo. I was surprised to notice no Sony references, though. Any thoughts?