Anime Yaoi or Straight? What's the deal?

[LetalisNox]

Now, let me tell you, I'm not a born yaoi fan. The first time I read a Heero/Duo Gundam Wing fic I nearly had a coronary. Then I became accepting of yaoi, even a fan of it (depending on the writer of the fanfiction, of course) and now there are some pairings that are just priceless to me.

But then I noticed something in anime: It seems to be awfully common for the main male character to have a male best friend and a female that falls in love with him while he more or less ignores her affection and gets on with the story. The two guys end up as a rave fanfiction couple by all the fangirls while the girl gets more flames than a volcano. The whole threesome concept has repeated itself too often to be ignored.

Prime examples being:

1) Gundam Wing (Heero Yuy, Duo Maxwell, Relena Peacecraft) You wouldn't BELIEVE the flames Relena gets. Whole sites are dedicated to hating her.
2) Rurouni Kenshin (Kenshin Himura, Sanosuke Sagara, Kaoru Kamiya)
3)Trigun (Vash the Stampede, Nicholas D. Wolfwood, Meryl Stryfe)

And those are just the most obvious ones.

Is this just the work of irate fangirls obsessed with cute guys falling in love with each other? Or is there more to the deal?

Think about it. Heero and Duo (voted in the top five of favorite anime couples by Animerica magazine) have a great camaraderie in the risk-their-lives-for-each-other sense, while Relena comes off as clingy and goody-goody. Kenshin and Sano are always going off to fight together and what-not, while Kaoru just mopes about her feelings for Kenshin. Wolfwood is the first person to see through Vash's false smiles (Quote from Wolfwood: "Your smile is so empty that it's painful to look at.") and from then on he and Vash establish a relationship more touching than anything Vash makes with Meryl (who does little more than berate him) by the series' end.

So many male/female relationships in popular anime are one-sided, fueled only by the argument of traditional romance in comparison with homosexual romance, an argument losing power more and more everyday. Is this intentional? Why do the two guys always seem to bond with each other far more deeply than the guy bonds with his potential girlfriend, and then we all assume the guy will get with the girl anyway, or we bash the girl into oblivion in fanfiction?

I'm neither a yaoi fangirl nor homophobic(I just like ALL the possibilities), so I can ask this without being biased either way: Yaoi or straight? What's the deal?[QUOTE]"I never could explain why I love anybody, or anything." Walter Whitman[/QUOTE]

[SadClown]

I must admit, at first I didn't like it either. But first you gotta understand that in Japan, people are obsessed with pushing the boundaries. Take CLAMP for example, EVERY one of their works has some sort of taboo or homosexual thing in it, even Card Captor Sakura. In things like JROCK, most of the singers are androgynous or cross-dressing males who play hard death metal type music and have an all female fan base. Personally, I just think there's something intriguing about it.

[MillieFan]

Mmmmm, nice, nice flamebait. I think I prefer something a little more sweet though, something that isn't so obviously flamebait. ~.^

I don't think these setups are "romantic triangles." Maybe that's because I'm not a fan of yaoi or shonen ai and don't read that into it, but a character can have a close friend without them being lovers, even if one of the characters' girlfriends is, politely, a dragon and/or an obsessive.

Also, your theory falls flat in that if it were shonen ai/yaoi fanservice, BOTH guys would have canon girls that were monsters or one would be single, but that isn't the case much of the time (i.e. Milly and Wolfwood, Duo and Dorothy, etc)

And what's the other options? Have the main guy have no friends at all? Have his girl be his only friend as well as his love interest? Sorry, but where you see "love triangles," I see a platonic close friendship and a hopeless or close to hopeless relationship that are unconnected. :love:

The way I look at it, the characters are just friends until/unless the writer makes it explicitly clear that they are more than friends in the storyline of the anime/manga or in a published, referenced interview. :cool:

(by the way, I'm going to pester some yaoi fans somewhere with a fic pairing Legato and Milly-and then post a note on it saying I have as much evidence for that as I do for the VxW pairing. Which I'm sure I could contrive just as much, i.e. they both like pudding, they both are subordinate to someone who is ordering them around [Knives and Meryl],they look good together. . . :laugh: )

And before you say I'm totally closeminded, I recognize that there are some relationships that while not openly shonen ai, have nothing much to discourage it *cough cough Knives/Legato or Quatre/Trowa cough cough cough* and while I find those pairings personally revolting as I find all yaoi, these characters don't have ANY somewhat workable opposite-gender relationships, so I'd class them as potential shonen ai fanservice.

[James]

[color=#707875]The thread creator's post isn't flamebait, but I think saying that certain pairings are "revolting" is probably going to inspire more flaming than anything else. Anyway...

I think that there's a pretty simple explanation here. In any anime I've ever watched, I notice that the main male protagonist (assuming it's a male) [i]often[/i] has an obvious female pairing. But, quite often, it seems to me that this pairing is never explored until near the end of the series.

In fact, in the beginning, it often seems that the two are cold toward each other. The two most likely to make a heterosexual couple are often at complete odds with one another throughout the series, until [i]finally[/i] their love is really brought into the open (by way of both sides admitting it, or what have you).

So, I think it's actually a situation where two characters can seem to hate each other (or not be very close) when in fact, the intention is that they are actually the perfect pairing. Does that make sense? You know, it's like if you tease a girl at school you apparently like her. lol

I've definitely discovered that mentality across the board; not just in anime. It's also prevalent in movies and novels, I find. But, that's just my take on it.

Obviously, the close friendships between two characters of the same sex are going to increase the likelihood of a same-sex pairing by somebody else. And that pairing may even be entirely logical and appropriate, in a fan story situation. When people get intensely offended over certain "pairings", I find it ridiculous. Whether or not you accept homosexuality is utterly irrelevant; you have to bear in mind that these characters are merely ink on a page. They aren't real people. So I think it's reasonable to expect people to take existing characters and fit them into whatever mould suits them for their own fan fiction. *shrug*[/color]

[Solo Tremaine]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by LetalisNox [/i]
[B]Think about it. Heero and Duo (voted in the top five of favorite anime couples by Animerica magazine) have a great camaraderie in the risk-their-lives-for-each-other sense, while Relena comes off as clingy and goody-goody. Kenshin and Sano are always going off to fight together and what-not, while Kaoru just mopes about her feelings for Kenshin. Wolfwood is the first person to see through Vash's false smiles (Quote from Wolfwood: "Your smile is so empty that it's painful to look at.") and from then on he and Vash establish a relationship more touching than anything Vash makes with Meryl (who does little more than berate him) by the series' end.[/b][/QUOTE]

I think that's just coincidence- when you're starting out or developing a relationship, I reckon you'll be more likely to be open to people of the same sex who you aren't going to necessarily start a relationship with in order to get things off your chest before they ruin the potential bond with the one you will love. Friends will always do things together and have a different (and sometimes stronger) relationship than those they're destined to go out with, just because it's a different kind of interaction.

[QUOTE][B]So many male/female relationships in popular anime are one-sided, fueled only by the argument of traditional romance in comparison with homosexual romance, an argument losing power more and more everyday. Is this intentional?[/QUOTE][/B]

I think the reasons 'traditional' relationships are more prominent in anime is because they are the ones more typical to the story stereotypes. That's not to say yaoi relationships are any less interesting, but girl falling in love with guy or vice-versa is how it's more or less always been and generally that's what people want to see. Animes are written to be watched, after all ^_^ So they have to pander at least slightly to the cliches already there else it'll be too strange to fully identify with.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Eh? HeeroxDuo, TOP FIVE?! What happened to Kaworu and Shinji, HUH?! Lol, j/k.

Well, on your point of the shounen-ai/yaoi authors, same thing happens with het couples. Authors tend to put male characters with other girl characters, flaming OTHER girl characters beyond reason. It's not just with the boys.

[QUOTE](by the way, I'm going to pester some yaoi fans somewhere with a fic pairing Legato and Milly-and then post a note on it saying I have as much evidence for that as I do for the VxW pairing. Which I'm sure I could contrive just as much, i.e. they both like pudding, they both are subordinate to someone who is ordering them around [Knives and Meryl],they look good together. . . )[/QUOTE]

Actually, I advise you against that.

Anyways, another quote.

[QUOTE] while I find those pairings personally revolting as I find all yaoi, these characters don't have ANY somewhat workable opposite-gender [/QUOTE]

The creators of GW said that they never meant to put shounen-ai on the series, and just because a boy doesn't have a potential girl doesn't mean they're gay automatically. Like Charles said, these characters are ink on paper, and authors tend to do wild things with them. Let yaoi/shounen-ai fans do whatever, there's nothing wrong with it.[/size]

[Boogiepop]

personally i have not seen many of these pictures but know they are there. but they do make me uncomfortable to say the least.

[Circ]

My small point over the subject is when I first started getting interested in anime fanfiction, I saw so much yaoi it looked as if heterosexual relationships where exceptionnal among anime fans o.O

Actually, it doesn't seems to matter whether or not there are "official" couples to Yaoi fans. Even married caracters have a roaming troup of rabid yaoi fan. 0.0

[MillieFan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Circéus [/i]
[B]My small point over the subject is when I first started getting interested in anime fanfiction, I saw so much yaoi it looked as if heterosexual relationships where exceptionnal among anime fans o.O

Actually, it doesn't seems to matter whether or not there are "official" couples to Yaoi fans. Even married caracters have a roaming troup of rabid yaoi fan. 0.0 [/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't that the truth! Seriously, I've seen pages of listings for fanfiction where there were about 4 yaoi stories to 5 or 6 normal stories per page listing. :sick: Also, so many fan sites feel that they must pander to this market and host at least one or two yaoi-related images or stories, or at the least provide a link to them.

On a separate but connected rant, yes, I know the characters are just ink on paper and words and that we shouldn't care what fanfic writers do-or that's one way of looking at it.

Another way to look at it is that, [i]especially in the case where the yaoi fans try to "prove" the writer wanted fans to interpret the characters as yaoi[/i], is that it is a form of artistic vandalism.

It is similar to taking a look at the Mona Lisa, thinking "wow, this would be better with pink hair, a moustache, and a toadstool growing out of its head," and spray-painting your features onto the painting itself, or peddling your Photoshop remake of "The Real Mona Lisa" for money and telling both art conoisseurs and people who haven't even seen the real thing that it's supposed to have pink hair, a moustache, and a toadstool.

[Braidless Baka]

Ohhh, I don't know MillieFan... "artistic vandalism" is going a little too far methinks...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i]
[B]I've seen pages of listings for fanfiction where there were about 4 yaoi stories to 5 or 6 normal stories per page listing.[/b][/quote]

The links are there [i]only[/i] because people have written them. If you don't want to read them, they're usually clearly marked as yaoi/yuri or whatever before you read them. Don't like them, don't read them. Some people obviously like them, or they wouldn't be there... O_O;;

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i]
[b]It is similar to taking a look at the Mona Lisa, thinking "wow, this would be better with pink hair, a moustache, and a toadstool growing out of its head," and spray-painting your features onto the painting itself, or peddling your Photoshop remake of "The Real Mona Lisa" for money and telling both art conoisseurs and people who haven't even seen the real thing that it's supposed to have pink hair, a moustache, and a toadstool. [/B][/QUOTE]

And if you like it better that way, then power to you ^_^ The fact is that some people do, and that's how they got into anime in the first place. And if they don't prefer that, if they're interested, they'll soon find out that it doesn't have the moustache, or the mushroom. There was a time when I thought Weiss Kreuz was a shounen ai show... (Although, you've gotta admit, four guys working together in a flowershop? It's just a [i]little[/i] suspicious?)

I mean, I get unnerved by all the yaoi pictures out there... I'll admit I get a little squirmy if someone suggests my favourite characters are paired off in an act of lustful sex. But, at the same time, it's freedom of interpretation and freedom of speech. Shounen ai doesn't bother me (same for shoujou ai). And the same kind of pictures and fics in a hetrosexual manner make me squirm too. Maybe that's naive and childish of me, but there's my view.

Fans' interpretations of the shows they're watching are part of what makes it a better show, I think. When someone's pointed out a pairing to me, I'm usually surprised I didn't see it first time round. The DuoxHeero pairing was something I completely missed the first time round. Now it's just "normal". As long as there's a basis for it in the story, I don't mind ^_^ It's just another idea for what could happen / be happening in the story, and I like speculation like that. It adds flavour. ^_^;;

[MillieFan]

Or if they look no farther, they will think it is "all about the mushroom and the moustache."

I've seen people angrily blast animes on the basis of fan yaoi pairings that had little to no basis in the anime itself. I've seen people say that, for example, Gundam Wing was hardcore yaoi and refuse to watch it to dispel that canard-while screaming that anyone who does watch it or like it is a yaoi fan.

By the way, [url]http://otakuboards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=404340#post404340[/url]

[eleanor]

[size=1] That is a bad thing, when people tell you GW is hardcore yaoi. Personally, if someone said that to me, I wouldn't care. What's wrong with shounen-ai? It was all those fanfictions that drew me to the show, anyway.

Oh, and in fanfiction stories, I've never seen an author try to force her ideas of a couple on readers. That's stupid. For example:
FFVII stories. Cloud is usually set up with Tifa or Aerith, because it's evident in the game that they both love him. Yuffie, however, seems to take no interest in Cloud. So, does that mean when an author wirtes a Cloud/Yuffie story, they're trying to force their ideas on people? No. Does that mean there's something horribly wrong about the Cloud/Yuffie pairing? That's your own opinion. If you don't like the couple, don't read the story and don't look at the fanart. So when people put Cloud and Vincent together, ignore it if you don't like it.

This is getting stupid. Why are you complaining about...links? Don't click on them! O_o;; That's like saying there's a fansite about Kenshin/Kaoru, and they give you a link to some fanart and fanfiction about that couple as well. Oh, yeah, that's horribly bad. And anyways, you KNOW if your at a yaoi-site of yaoi-fanfiction. Of all the shounen-ai sites I've gone to, I haven't seen a one that stops you ands tells you that you're about to enter the 'Yaoi-zone' of the site. In fanfiction, people usually state if their story if yaoi or not. They even had ratings. Hm, let's see. R and NC-17 would have to go in the yaoi department, yes?[/size]

[animeforever105]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solo Tremaine [/i]
[B]I think that's just coincidence- when you're starting out or developing a relationship, I reckon you'll be more likely to be open to people of the same sex who you aren't going to necessarily start a relationship with in order to get things off your chest before they ruin the potential bond with the one you will love. Friends will always do things together and have a different (and sometimes stronger) relationship than those they're destined to go out with, just because it's a different kind of interaction.[/QUOTE]

*nods head in agreement*.Exactly! I am much more open with my close friends (who are girls),than my close friends(who are guys). There are things you can share with your friends, and there are things you can share with your love (of course your love should probably know all the things your friends do.oh well) I am disgusted by a few of the pictures I've seen. >_< blech! I don't mind people matching guy-guy girl-girl as much as I mind the pictures!The thing is, you may just accidentally see one of these pictures. That's the case with me. I looked at a title that sounded interesting then BOOM! This pornographic picture is right in front of your face. NASTY!

[MillieFan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by animeforever105 [/i]
[B]*nods head in agreement*.Exactly! I am much more open with my close friends (who are girls),than my close friends(who are guys). There are things you can share with your friends, and there are things you can share with your love (of course your love should probably know all the things your friends do.oh well) I am disgusted by a few of the pictures I've seen. >_< blech! I don't mind people matching guy-guy girl-girl as much as I mind the pictures!The thing is, you may just accidentally see one of these pictures. That's the case with me. I looked at a title that sounded interesting then BOOM! This pornographic picture is right in front of your face. NASTY! [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, and while [i]most responsible[/i] authors of yaoi/serious shonen ai (I'm not referring to the "bubbles in the air fics" but to the stuff that's one shade short of yaoi), at least on fanfiction.net anyway, label it as such in the summary (or at the least the first page) for their fanfics and rate it accordingly, some don't.

In my time of being a fanfic fan posting and reading in the Trigun section of fanfiction.net as "AnonymousTrigunOtaku," I've seen, among others, a nearly lemon WxV yaoi summarized in such a way that it didn't *look* like yaoi. The "yaoi surprise" came in the second chapter. I've also seen a KxL shonen ai fic that was done pretty much the same way. Basically, the only reason that one was "shonen ai" instead of "yaoi" was that it was a monologue of Legato's fantasies about Knives and they didn't *actually* have sex in the course of the fanfic. :blackeye:

Basically, if you want to write/draw yaoi/shonen ai, please don't post it online without warnings, and please don't force sites to host it in order to "keep the fangirls happy." I'd like to see more sites that [i]didn't[/i] have yaoi on them in some form or another.

[eleanor]

[size=1] I've also seen some fanfics that don't have warnings, but most of them do. It probably says so in the beginning of the fic in the author's notes or something.

Also, nobody really forced websites to host yaoi stories of pictures. The only person who would decide what to go on his/her website is the owner of that site. [/size]

[OtakuSennen]

Just go on fanfiction.net.. On most popular pages, you'll find more yaoi romance fanfics than opposite-gender ones.. There isn't one opposite-gender relationship at all out of the 4000 fanfictions on Naruto.. It's all Naruto/Sasuke (both guys)... So, obviously there is a large fanbase.. So whether we debate or not, it's here to stay..

As for my opinion? I'm not saying I like it, I'm not saying I hate it.

Hehe.. You're forgetting yuri.. Kidding..

[ninetails390]

I'm not a yoai fan. I don't have a problem with it in general, it's just that some *coughmostcough* fans try to put EVERY boy anime character in a yoai pairing. If it actually relates to the anime, I don't really mind it any more than any normal couple. The thing is, there aren't many of those, almost every male/male pairing I know of is fan-created. Some examples of "fan" yoai pairings are Ryou/Bakura (Yu-Gi-Oh) and Kurama/Hiei (Yu Yu Hakusho). No offense to fans of these pairings, but Ryou and Kurama are some of my all time favorite anime characters, and I find these pairings slightly offending.
Male/male pairings actually suggested in the anime itself aren't as bad. Not very common either, especially when you like mostly shounen (boys) anime/manga series'. (Yes, I am a girl, and yes, I like shounen more than shoujo.) Anyways, to the one and only yoai (well, it's mre of shounen-ai, but its male/male) couple I like at all. Kaworu/Shinji, from Evangelion. Kaworu actually says that he loves Shinji, and seems to really show signs of it, too. It seems like an actual part of the anime itself, especially since from what I've seen on the internet, the creator supports the couple. Ok, now I'm done talking (and talking, and talking, and talking...

[eleanor]

[size=1] I'm a big shounen-ai fan myself, but I can tell you this. The only pairing that I've ever liked that has absolutely no reason behind it is Harry/Draco. That's not even anime...O_o Lol, anyways, most shounen-ai couples come from animes with lots of boys and few girls.

Let's take WeiB Kreuz for example. The main characters are four cute mean who pretend to be flower-shop owners, and become assasins at night.The only 'main' girl is Aya-chan, the younger sister of Aya (Ran is his real name). So shounen-ai fans have a field day. I see nothing wrong with it! There are no girls, only men, what are we shounen-ai fans supposed to do? Same with Gundam Wing. OK, so Relena and that girl who liked Duo is in it. Let's talk about Trowa and Quatre. There aren't any girls for them, and I think [spoiler]Catherine is Trowa's sister[/spoiler] anyway. I don't think there are specific girls for Kurama and Hiei either. I'm not sure, though, I haven't watched YYH a lot. Same with Ryou and Bakura.

But I've noticed that Milliefan has brought up the Vash/Wolfwood pairing. I don't think there are hardly any of these pairing, trust me, I know. I mean....I think Vash and Wolfwood are pretty straight. I can see how some people can get mad because a lot of people do make any anime male character gay with some other guy, but I beleive most pairings come from the idea that the guys have no girls.

Take G-Gundam for example. Every main male character each has some girl that they're in love with, and I have [i]never[/i] seen more than two G-Gundam shounen-ai stories. Get my point?[/size]

[Zen]

Excuse, me but you need to get your story striaght. Vash, Wolfwood, and Merle are not like that. Vash actually has made some moves on Meryle. but SHE always ignored him or told him to stop his senseless search for love when ever he flirted with other women. She acted like SHE hated HIM threw out the series. And Wolfwood is deffinetley not the best friend, but a close aquiantance that Vash talks too once in a while.

And Wolfwood and Vash "pairing up" is a little creepy to me and would never, NEVER, happen. Vash is too much a Womanizer and Wolfwood is a holy preist. (DO NOT MAKE CATHOLIOC CHURCH JOKES ABOUT THAT! Wiat, i'm not cathoplic.) The people who wright those things are not true fans and they do not deserve for there storied to be called fanfiction. (not that being like that is bad, but its not my sort of thing,)

[Solo Tremaine]

Yeah, but the point about fanfiction is that it's written more or less just for the author as a 'What if?'. It's not something that should be taken offence to. If you don't like it, don't read it. It's as simple as that. Saying that the people who write it aren't true fans and don't deserve their work to be called fanfiction is derogating and rather narrow-minded in my view, because they may like the series just as much as anyone else, but just want to explore their own adventures.

After all, you can't deny that you'd have thought about what you'd write about if you had control of the next series. Just because you think one character may be better suited to someone they're not meant to be with according to the series doesn't make you less of a fan at all. That's more or less what fanfiction is anyway; being able to play out an idea that you have for the series that you can show to everyone else, be it yaoi, yuri, straight or even lemon.

[eleanor]

[size=1]Double_B_Diablo: Excuse me, but you need to read my post. I never said Vash and Wolfwood was a couple. I said Vash and Wolfwood were pretty striaght. ::gets extremely angry:: I suggest you actually read the posts before replying.[/size]

[Zen]

I'm not saying that fanfiction is bad, i'm just saying that all that hentai bull crap isn't a true fans fan fic. Its just not worthy of being called a fan fic if they have nothing but fantasy sex couples threw out.

Sorry malajusted.

[eleanor]

[size=1] It's just fanfiction, for god's sake. These anime characters are fictional people drawn by a pencil! [/size]

[Zen]

I know that, but it gets annoying when i get attached to these characters and grow too love them, only to have some weirdo start making a twisted porno script with the characters that i love so much. I kinda want to just, grrrrrr, strangle them for a good while.

[Kwai]

Well... I'm no fan of Yaoi fan-fics... but every person has a different view or interpretation of anything they set their eyes upon... unfortunately, some decide to let their imaginations take (from my point of view) less desirable courses. But thats what the authors of Yaoi fan-fics want to do, let them. I would ignore them rather than start a "You're not a fan cuz you write Yaoi fan-fic!" war...