Anime Yaoi or Straight? What's the deal?

[eleanor]

[size=1] I'm not saying that yaoi fanfictions was explicit content is good, but it's not just yaoi. Hundreds of authors do it with het couples as well.[/size]

[Kwai]

Its all the same... people have their own... fantasies/expectations about characters, and since those fantasies/expectations aren't fulfilled, they have the need to go out and write their own story with their own fantasy/expectation in place.

[Zen]

O.k., but what i'm saying is that i hate it even when they have a Trigun/Yu Yu Hakusho mix over or stuff like that. I also hate thoughs sorts of things. If charaacter from the same anime/manga fall in love, with a since of "this could really happen" then i'm cool with that. ANd as long the main focus isn't on having fantasy sex, its alright in my book and i will read it. may be even illustrate it if they asked. (I'm a pretty good drawer)

[Evisoun]

I'm an odd one. Maybe even insulting and self-centered to some people.
I support authors that write yaoi/yuri/etc. and don't put out any warnings. I understand that some people are not "ok" with it, but to me, there's nothing wrong. There shouldn't be a warning for that kind of thing because it isn't perverted, it isn't sick, it isn't anything to be warned about. If someone feels that it is and happens to stumble upon a yuri/yaoi-fic, then move on. You're innocence was tainted. You'll never be the same again. Now move on. I'll support yaoi/yuri warnings when I see het warnings plastered all over fan sites.

Also, yuri/yaoi-fic are usually obvious even without the warnings. Example: Harry is lonely. Ron and Hermione are dating. What will the boy-who-lived do when Draco appears naked in front of him with his charmed to tap dance feet?

I agree that bashing the yaoi threatening girl gets annoying.

edit: I should probably add that [i]ratings[/i] are usually included in all fics, along with lemon/lime warnings.

[MillieFan]

As a fanfic writer myself, I've personally underrated a story, albeit by accident (my latest serious story, "Sole Survivor" should be an R rather than the PG-13 it is. Although it definitely isn't lemon, the next chapters I will be uploading are rather gory to say the least, so I'm moving the rating up)

Thing is, ratings work only when those using them are responsible to use them properly-and either due to error/honest mistake as in my case or due to deliberate intent, some fics are rated lower than they should be. (and yes, there are some that are rated higher than they should be but those are much fewer and irrelevant to this discussion)

As for lemon/lime warnings, those [i]need[/i] to be posted in the summary so the choice whether to open the actual page containing the fic is informed. There are some of us who have shared web histories (i.e. others can see where we have been) or who simply don't [i]want[/i] to have yaoi fics in their web history.

[Evisoun]

[QUOTE]As for lemon/lime warnings, those need to be posted in the summary so the choice whether to open the actual page containing the fic is informed. There are some of us who have shared web histories (i.e. others can see where we have been) or who simply don't want to have yaoi fics in their web history.[/QUOTE]
I agree. lemon/lime warnings need to be posted and they usually are. Lemon/lime are not limited to yaoi/yuri fics. If a non yaoi/yuri fan comes across a boy/girl kissing another boy/girl, they can simply alter their web history. And anti yaoi/yuri fans don't exactly read yaoi/yuri fics everyday. Unless they're completely moronic and don't learn from their mistakes, they should usually know when a fic is yaoi/yuri and when one isn't, even before sexual actions occur. Even before they read the story.

[quote]Thing is, ratings work only when those using them are responsible to use them properly[/quote]
When I said ratings, I only included meant sex/sexual acts, etc. (gore and other things don't really fit with this thread). Fics with those kinds of things have higher ratings. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. If ratings are ignored, there are always the lemon/lime warnings. However, there are always stupid and irresponsible people online, so when you see something that you don't like, just click on that nifty little back button and go read something that you do.

I should have said this from the start, but when I say yaoi/yuri I just mean boy/boy relationship, girl/girl relationship. Not boy/boy having sex relationship, girl/girl sex, etc. Shounen-ai is a lot longer word than yaoi.

[eleanor]

[size=1] I really have no problem with the lemons in fanfiction. 99% of the time, I always see warning, and people should know whether they want to read it or not.[/size]

[Japan]

Sad but true, for the Heero Yuy/Duo Maxwell relationship. I still find it hard to believe that Kenshin/Sano and Vash/Wolfwood COUPLES???
I find those 2 hard to believe. Like Kenshin loved that one girl, the one that was in Samuri X: Betrayal. Also, Vash loves [spoiler]Rem Saverm[/spoiler] also, Vash wouldn't be in a relationship with Wolfwood because in ep. 23, [spoiler]Vash didn't really want to see Wolfwood's face b/c Wolfwood killed Saucy of the Gun-Ho-Guns[/spoiler]

[Zen]

Yes and there all very Hetero Sexual. Like i said, Vash is too much a womanizer, wolfwood is a preist.

Kenshin loves Kaowru and Sano likes the doctor lady.

Heero Yuy loves relina peacecraft and i think that Duo loves Sara aor what ever that long haired blonde chicks name is.

I don't see why they can't just use characters who don't have romances yeet like Quatre, or Sanoske and the doctor woman.

[eleanor]

[size=1] You know....3x4 is a popular coupling as well. I think a lot of people use Gundam Wing shounen-ai couples because it's so...invitable. Five guys, some girls who barely show up in the show compared to everyone else...[/size]

[Evisoun]

[quote]Heero Yuy loves relina peacecraft and i think that Duo loves Sara aor what ever that long haired blonde chicks name is.[/quote]
Heero doesn't love anybody. Neither does Duo. Gundam Wing is not a romance anime. -You- may think that Heero loves Relena, but in the actual series, they are not in love. Nobody is in love (romantically), except for maybe Noin and Zechs.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Besides, Relena annoys the crap outta me.

O.o Anyways, that may be another reason that a lot of shounen-ai go for GW. They like to make romance happen, even though the Evisoun is correct. I don't think GW is a romantic series.[/size]

[MillieFan]

Japan 86, the name of the Gung Ho Gun is [i]Zazie[/i], not Saucy.

Double B, I don't really want to spoil episode 23 for you if you haven't seen it yet, but Wolfwood isn't exactly your average priest ~.^ however in the anime he is definitely NOT gay either. [spoiler] in episode 23 it's HEAVILY implied that he and Milly did a lot more than eat sandwiches ~.^ [/spoiler].

[Zen]

Oh, i know that very well. When i say that they didn't get to completely explore there relashionship, i mean , marriage, children(or at least Wolfwood didn't see them), DAtes, etc. But it was a very, very traggic romance. And Wolfwood, he is deffinetly a Baptist. Because he is allowed too explore relationships. He not Jewish becaue he carries a cross and hes not catholic for obvious reasons. and i klnow he was [spoiler]he was working for the Gung-Ho Guns.[/spoiler]

[MillieFan]

As for Wolfwood, he corresponds to [i]no[/i] denomination or belief within orthodox, Biblical Christianity. There are a few similarities, but in the anime, it's never stated what he is or isn't-he's simply an *undefined* priest that could be argued to be almost [i]anything[/i] under the umbrella of religions and denominations within those religions. IOW he could be intrepreted as almost anything (except maybe a Quaker LOL ~.^)

In the manga, it's specific that Wolfwood represents no belief with an actual counterpart: in the manga, he represents a religion in the story centered around the worship of the plants.

^sigh^ Ignorance is not bliss, it is merely ignorance.

Sorry if I seem like I'm being mean. -^.^-

(BTW Metatron thanks for the clarification on the manga.)

[Kwai]

Correction on your point about Wolfwood's religion Milliefan... its not centered around worshipping Knives, but Plants in general... and as I recall, it was called "Michael's Eye"...

But anyway, back on topic, I would much rather prefer that the yaoi authors kept their own fantasies within their own minds rather than display it to the public, but i guess its freedom of press....

[LetalisNox]

Well, yaoi implications in popular anime are not entirely in the broad imaginations of fangirls. Japanese doujinshi art caters to the yaoi fanbase with pictures that go from merely suggestive to . . . well, way beyond suggestive. Any fans of GW can find Heero/Duo and Trowa/Quatre doujinshi spanning the net in the hundreds, decidedly more than straight doujinshi. And let's all not forget about CLAMP . . . 'nuff said there.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Well, if we weren't allowed to express our opinion on shounen-ai, why should het writers be allowed to? :P[/size]

[MillieFan]

Doujinshi is fan art/fanfiction. . .unless it is officially licensed and endorsed, no matter how "close" it is to the original work (and yes, there are some "artists"-for lack of a better word-who can draw the characters almost as well as the original artists or even better).

My point is, the GW doujinshi is about as valid an excuse for yaoi as saying "But the guy ahead of me did it" is for running a red light.

[James]

[color=#707875]I don't see much logic to your arguments here, MillieFan.

I mean, I'm a fan of The Simpsons, yet you're probably aware of some of the gross "Simpsons fan comics/images" that they have out there. The question is, does it really matter to me?

The answer is simply "no". Why? Because, quite simply, these are [i]works of fan fiction[/i]. They bear absolutely no reflection on the original creator. People who view that stuff know that it's fan fiction. They know, in most cases, that these characters [i]aren't intended[/i] to have certain relationships. But don't you see? That's not the point.

Few people would say or imply that these relationships exist in the original series. That's totally beside the point. People are merely taking existing characters and using them to construct their own fan stories. It's no different if I take a FFX character and put them in a battle with a FFIX character. You could say "that makes no sense!", but it doesn't [i]need[/i] to make sense. It's my work of fan fiction. I'm not using it to seek money, and I'm not claiming that it's official or anything like that. And my fan work certainly don't change the original work or anything.

By your standards, we shouldn't allow half the RPGs in Adventure Arena -- because often, they are using characters from established series and those characters are being played out of their original context. See what I mean? [/color]

[MillieFan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]I don't see much logic to your arguments here, MillieFan.

I mean, I'm a fan of The Simpsons, yet you're probably aware of some of the gross "Simpsons fan comics/images" that they have out there. The question is, does it really matter to me?

The answer is simply "no". Why? Because, quite simply, these are [i]works of fan fiction[/i]. They bear absolutely no reflection on the original creator. People who view that stuff know that it's fan fiction. They know, in most cases, that these characters [i]aren't intended[/i] to have certain relationships. But don't you see? That's not the point.
[/quote]

I agree with you there. However. . .

[quote]
Few people would say or imply that these relationships exist in the original series. That's totally beside the point. People are merely taking existing characters and using them to construct their own fan stories. It's no different if I take a FFX character and put them in a battle with a FFIX character. You could say "that makes no sense!", but it doesn't [i]need[/i] to make sense. It's my work of fan fiction. I'm not using it to seek money, and I'm not claiming that it's official or anything like that. And my fan work certainly don't change the original work or anything.

[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed mostly with what you said. However, while most written fanfiction (at least on fanfiction.net) has openly posted disclaimers that it is fan works, not a part of the series, etc. my main problem is not with that.

My main beef is with the authors that attempt to twist the original work to back up their claims. There are several sites that argue, for example, that the writers of Gundam Wing intended a relationship between Heero and Duo.

As a matter of fact, there was a person posting on this board itself in one of the threads like this (maybe even this one itself) arguing that the writers of Trigun implied the Vash/Wolfwood pairing and that the writers of Ruruoni Kenshin implied the Kenshin/Sanosuke pairing.

Also, if a work is clearly labeled and has disclaimers, then it isn't usually even on my radar.

However, one of my other main complaints is not so much written fanfiction, but high technical quality fanart. Fanart usually doesn't carry disclaimers (where would you put it after all?), and some of the Kenshin/Sano, Heero/Duo, and Vash/Wolfwood pics out there could easily pass for series screenshots-and do just that.

Maybe you haven't had the experience of someone telling you your favorite anime was porno. Maybe you haven't gotten into a discussion of homosexuality when you asked someone about another anime. I hope this never happens to you, but both have to me, because I have a friend who judges anime on the basis of artwork allegedly from it.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Really, Milliefan, the people who are trying to support Heero/Duo relationships don't twist the anime around. All they do is point out facts from the anime that they think hints toward the pairing. Most of the time, the facts are pretty stupid and it probably just represents a friendship or connection of the two, so don't get so angry about it.

I've hanged around the Anime Lounge for quite some time, I've never seen anyone argue that the writers intended for gay relationships in Rurouni Kenshin and Trigun. And I certainly haven't seen them in this thread. If there are threads like that around here, just ignore them. The only people who really know whether the anime is hinting toward relationships are the people who made it, and unless the creators come out and tell the world if the anime is or isn't, everyone should keep their mouths shut and not complain about what other people are doing. It's their own buisness, and no matter how hard you complain, nothing's going to change it.


[b] **** In an interview with the creator of Gundam Wing, when he was asked about Heero and Relena's relationship, he replied that he was not good at that kind of thing [romance] and that they were not supposed to really have a boy-girl relationship.

Even so, they have a connection, be it just friendship or a mutual respect. Still, Ikeda said somewhere else (I'd have to look it up again to tell you where) that he couldn't give real explainations about the characters because everyone sees them differently. He said that the characters are what the watchers make of them, and he cannot dictate what the fans think. **** [/b]

Even the creator of Gundam Wing is leaving the fans alone.



And what do you expect fanartists to do?I really don't see what you're complaining about. I can assure you that 99% of all high-quality fanworks and art is usually signed by the artist. If one's art is SO good and looks exactly like a screenshot from the anime....well, you know what? That's nearly impossible. I have never, [i]ever[/i] seen a person's art that looks like a screenshot from an anime. If there are some out there, well then I say good for them.

If your friend is judging anime from artwork, tell her that what she's looking at is only Fanart, something very different from the official artwork. Heh, won't work on GW though, they hace official pictures of Heero/Relena as well as Heero/Duo. :P

I have had tons of people telling me that all anime is pornography and hentai, or "Oh, I heard that anime was ALL about gay guys,". You're not the only one, I think a lot of anime fans have been told this. [/size]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i]
[B]

My main beef is with the authors that attempt to twist the original work to back up their claims. There are several sites that argue, for example, that the writers of Gundam Wing intended a relationship between Heero and Duo. [/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]I'd still have to ask you why it even matters. Who cares, really? Is it so bad if there [i]were[/i] an intended relationship? I mean, surely the original writers will have an answer to this question. If the writer says something akin to "I'll let you decide", then it should be a non-issue.[/color][quote][b]

As a matter of fact, there was a person posting on this board itself in one of the threads like this (maybe even this one itself) arguing that the writers of Trigun implied the Vash/Wolfwood pairing and that the writers of Ruruoni Kenshin implied the Kenshin/Sanosuke pairing.[/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]Once again...so? People make a lot of claims about video games and anime (particularly when it comes to character pairing), but I still don't see that it matters. You know that people like to gossip about these things...and if they're going to analyze something like anime, a lot of people are bound to get it wrong anyway. It shouldn't affect your enjoyment or perception of the series. And you shouldn't worry what others think. If people are going to base their assumptions on discussions like that, then they clearly aren't looking at the situation very hard.[/color][quote][b]

However, one of my other main complaints is not so much written fanfiction, but high technical quality fanart. Fanart usually doesn't carry disclaimers (where would you put it after all?), and some of the Kenshin/Sano, Heero/Duo, and Vash/Wolfwood pics out there could easily pass for series screenshots-and do just that.[/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]I don't know...I still don't see a problem. I could probably find pictures of The Simpsons or something that looks like a screenshot, but it's actually a doctored image that contains something sexually explicit. But if it's sexually explicit, most people with reasonable intelligence know that it's not legitimate.[/color][quote][b]

Maybe you haven't had the experience of someone telling you your favorite anime was porno. Maybe you haven't gotten into a discussion of homosexuality when you asked someone about another anime. I hope this never happens to you, but both have to me, because I have a friend who judges anime on the basis of artwork allegedly from it. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]Well, I don't know. If people are going to judge anime based on something like that, then they're not using their brain in my view. And surely all you have to do is explain it to them.

I don't think other people's perceptions should matter. My dad doesn't appreciate anime, but I don't care. My mother and I watch it occasionally...and she appreciates it. And that's fine. I don't need anyone's validation or approval to enjoy an anime.

Besides, this all seems to revolve around homosexuality. What happens when someone implies a relationship between characters of the opposite sex (where one does not really exist)? Are you just as outraged? I hope so, because it seems like you're more offended by the homosexuality than the factual aspect. I could be wrong about that, though. I understand that it's annoying to have something misinterpreted (with an anime/game that you enjoy), but it doesn't mean that same sex fan stories are bad or problematic. They're no different to other fan stories, which might be just as inaccurate in other ways. They shouldn't be singled out.[/color]

[MillieFan]

[quote]In an interview with the creator of Gundam Wing, when he was asked about Heero and Relena's relationship, he replied that he was not good at that kind of thing [romance] and that they were not supposed to really have a boy-girl relationship.
[/quote]

Then my question is: if Ikeda was not good at romance, even simple boy-girl romance, then how could he have written in anywhere from 1 to 6 same-sex romances? If someone isn't good at writing romance, odds are they aren't going to be any better writing yaoi romance than straight.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i]
[B]Then my question is: if Ikeda was not good at romance, even simple boy-girl romance, then how could he have written in anywhere from 1 to 6 same-sex romances? If someone isn't good at writing romance, odds are they aren't going to be any better writing yaoi romance than straight. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]Nobody here is saying that he is writing yaoi romances. Once again, it comes down to the whole idea of fan stories taking the anime and producing something new from it. I don't doubt that there are people who also write about invalid/unfeasable opposite sex relationships between anime characters, too.[/color]