Transtic Nerve Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Whether or not this country is based on religious morals, it has no place. It says so in our very own constitution and by making it based on religious values, that initself is un-American. This is precisely whats wrong with this country. Among other things. Again, whether or not you're for or against gay marriage, it's quite frankly none of your damn business. I am not FOR organized religion but I'm not out protesting it, I'm not out voting against it... I let it be. It's not my life, it has no part of me, and thus I don't give a rat's arse. Religious folks tend to have this... thing where they jump all up in other people's business because they are "sinning".... uhh hello?... go away. If we're sinning we know we are, we don't care... and we certainly don't want or need your guidance or we'd already have used it. I know that sounds rude, but I don't mean it like that... I mean it in the way that we don't appreciate being told how we shoud live our life by people we a) don't know and b) don't care to know just as much as you wouldn't appreciate us telling you to "be gay for one day"... exactly... The issue here is personal rights of people... and we have the right to express our love to the fullest extent, and that means getting married... denying that right... why not just sweep us all under your american carpet and maybe we'll go away.... but it doesn't work that way,a nd now it's coming backto bite them all in the arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheEsca [/i] [B]Well, im brand new to this board, and i will state my thoughts. My friends told me this was a pretty cool board, but i see alot of fighting, and dear i say...."nazi"-ism. So i will watch what i say, but i will exercise my freedom of speech. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=#707875]"Nazi"-ism? If I hear that phrase from someone about this board one more time... lol If there were any trace of "Nazi-ism" here, this thread would be closed and people like you may very well not be welcome. That would be Nazi-ism. The very fact that this thread proliferates with various views is an example of the exact opposite to what you're suggesting. Secondly, there is no "fighting" here. Why is it, that whenever a serious debate occurs -- and proceeds in a mature manner -- people immediately say "come on guys, stop flaming each other"? I really have to question that logic. Your post is the first post I've seen in this thread to be truly argumentative and rude. And I don't like it; you certainly haven't made a good first impression from my point of view. I'm sorry if I seem unreasonable, but I'm unimpressed. If you are incapable of serious debate, don't post in these threads. Simple as that. Going around saying that something is Nazi-like or whatever (when it's clearly the opposite; your own participation demonstrates that), is just childish. It has no place in what should be a mature debate. Please, let's not degrade things to this level and drag the entire thread through the mud. So far, everybody in here has been quite civil and respectful -- nobody has flared up in any major way and everything has been explained pretty well. On all sides, people have been pretty careful to respect one another. It's when people come in throwing terms like "Nazi-ism" around that these threads start to degenerate. I've already dignified your post far too much by even responding. But I'm really not in the mood to see comments like that at the moment, particularly in a venue where people are [i]trying[/i] their level best to have a civil discussion. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 [size=1] I support gay marriage, in the sense that we should have the unremoveable right to choose for ourselves our lifestyle and who we are. The most important rule that jesus gave us was to "love one antoher as I have loved you" I am also bisexual. There is nothing wrong with that lol. It was after all the way i must have been created because i did not choose to be bi. My spiritual life would have been far easier for me if I weren't bi, So to TN, Lailaith and others, I know what you mean in all honesty. When it comes to munam (human - I'll leave that humiliating typo for soemthing to laugh at lol) rights, I also believe in allowing people to air different beliefs and choose different paths form that which I chose, it makes sense lol. well that was my 200 cents, hope you could understand it as it was difficult to write ~_^ [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadClown Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 ^^ Very well spoken. Your my new best friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taylor Hewitt Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Marriage... Gay marriage... can't 2 people have the same relationship unmarried as they can married? I have no problem with homosexuals lesbians and gays allowed to marry. That's fine. But I believe God made it that man and woman would marry, have sexual intercourse and have a child to repeat the cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 *hasn't read anything so far* Sorry, I'm on a slow, charged by the minute dial up connection and thus don't have time to read everyone's replies before I post. My thoughts are essentially this: Marriage, at it's roots, is a religious ceremony. Thus, if you want to get married in a religious ceremony, I don't see how you can do it if your marriage goes against the beliefs of that religion. If you want to get married in a ceremony which calls God in as a witness, and the nature of your marriage goes against this God ([b]regardless[/b] of whether the religion is actually true or not), then really I don't see the point. If however, you wish to be lawfully married to a member of the same sex, but don't want to go through the whole religious service thing, then why not.. go break a leg and whatnot. I don't mind same sex marriages in society as a whole. There are worse things that some people in society do which go against my beliefs. However what I do ask is that you don't ask us to compromise our beliefs by God-ordaining you in a marriage which goes against our beliefs. That's not intolerance- because like I said I don't mind what you do outside, it's what you want me to support inside the church, that I don't like. By no means does that mean I would turn a gay man away if he turned up at our church- we'd welcome him in like any other person, but we will [i]not[/i] support a relationship which goes against our beliefs. But like I said, if you want legal marriage for same-sex couples then I have no problem with that as long as you don't force the church to support it. (hope I made sense) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 [color=#707875]Well, what about churches that accept gay people? They do exist. The church as a whole (and the "national heirarchy" or whatever it's called) doesn't have to support it, for sure. But some churchs who currently support homosexuality may also choose to support homosexual marriage under their designated religion. I think it's arrogant to tell other people that they can't have a religious marriage ceremony [i]if[/i] it doesn't necessarily force the entire church to follow a line of thought...and if it doesn't intrude on your personal beliefs. As I was saying earlier, it's not something that impedes your right to practice your faith. It doesn't change your beliefs, or force you to change them. Just as you have the right to have one religious observance, others have the right to their own religious observance (their interpretations of the same religion, or of other religions). So, once again, it's a freedom of religion thing in this case. The church at large doesn't support homosexuality, but some small churches do. From a purely religious standpoint, I don't see an issue with those specific churches marrying couples. You might not agree, and that's okay -- it's your right. It's also your right to practice religion differently to that specific church. EDIT: It might be worth reading the last few pages of the thread, Dan. Some good points were brought up...and it'd be a shame to see some good discussion repeated again. I know you're connection's slow, but the last page or so is worth viewing for the debate to go forward, I think.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Look at it this way if you lack true understanding of the Bible and take it as the word of God instead of the message of God. It only says that it forbids two men to lay together. So if they do it standing it's all good (heh). I really have no problem with Gay marrige. I don't see it happening as a Religious activity, but really what marrige is (and always will be in this country), is a financial arrangemnt. And I don't this that anyone choses to by Gay, so dare I say?! God made them Gay?! It is not their choice, and I refuse to tollerate them. To tollerate is to insult. I understand where they come are comming from, and I see no reason to deny a homosexual there rights that every other American is entitled to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 you know whats funny? In Orlando, at the gay pride parade, we go right by the downtown Catholic church... I don't remember whats it's called... but regardless, we go right by a catholic church... and EVERY year.. the priest and the nuns stand outside through the whole parade, wave, smile, and put up a banner on their church thats says "Jesus Loves Everyone" It made me happy. It makes me have faith in people. If a priest and the nuns can do it, how come the simple church goers can't? Seems ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Heh, because Catholicism has generally split from larger Christianity. Hence the Reformation. I had an epiphany just now. People can claim whatever they want, for all I care. The term 'Christian' holds little meaning in the world anymore anyway. I'll preach the Bible, black and white, with no variances or other doctrines, as the Word of God. If you think that's wrong and you're right, go ahead and preach what you will. Everyone will serve the ultimate purpose of humans in the end anyway. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just make sure you preach the other way (heh), most of us like to do searching on our own. You are right in saying words have little meaning. God preaches love, compassion, and understanding; to many people just pick and chose and find a lable. So how would God look upon you for gay bashing, for refusing to understand what the world presents to you as reality. Walk the path before you preach it I say. I lived an increadibly moral life before I even began to look into spirituality. I walked the walk, before I talked the talk... "Living generally meens living in imitaion and therefore in fear."-Bruce Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wicked Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I think that gays should be married lawfully. but not by church, that is something special that a man and a woman go through when they love each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I see marrige only as a financial arrangement. I really don't buy into ritual too much...If two people love eachother in this increadibly crazy world, who am I to judge? Heh...Beatles Quote-"All you need is love". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadClown Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B] Everyone will serve the ultimate purpose of humans in the end anyway. [/B][/QUOTE] And what would that be? And as far as marrying in the Church being exclusive for a man and woman that love eachother, thats BS. It's for people who share a common faith. The church isn't there to ordain love, it's there to preach their beliefs about the world. And don't get me wrong, I dont have a problem with ppl believing what they want. I just choose to find it on my own, rather than be told. And i get very irritated with ppl who have the "my way or the highway" approach to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Well, I could tell you in my own words what I think the ultimate purpose of humanity is, but language like that could get me banned...I think that the Quakers had the best idea for Church...Yow go there, you pray in total scilence, and you get up and leave. Just you, a room, and God... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patronus Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 [size=1]Not allowing gay marriages is restricting freedom and committing racism/prejudism. It's just another form of government stupidity. -L/Z[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 The purpose of humans(in this finite life) no matter what opinion you choose is simple, I say: To live. The ultimate purpose in my belief? Read the Bible for that answer. I don't feel like raising the conflict stating that openly would create. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 "Be fruitful and multipy", etc...(i.e. like rabbits in a cage, have you seen that commercail?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadClown Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Sounds like a dumb purpose to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Eh, it works. I honestly like the Evangelion purpose better, each generation is step closer to God or something like that, sounds nice on paper, but it really is a bunch of bs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 [size=1] My purpose is to live for God. That may not be the case for you, but it is for me. there is too much evidence for the existence of god for me to ignore it... That isn't a dumb pupose ^_^ it's actually very self rewarding I suggest a "try it before youu knock it" scenario. as for me. well, I've got alot of very difficult stuff to sort out with my creator. The very person who has kept me alive these past few years, without him I'd be DEAD. So please, at least give it a go. Conviction of the Holy Spirit isn't a burden, it's shown me a better way of life. Sorry if that's too harsh for you, but it's the truth. [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 You are misunderstanding... most gay people believe in a GOD.... there's not alot of athiest or wiccans, at least ot as many as there are christians (for lack of a better word)... We believe in God, many of us go to church... We just don't believe that being gay, or involving ourself in sexual ativities with the same sex as being sinful. One could say we don't believe in the bible. Something like along the lines of how the Jews don't believe Jesus is the messiah. It's not that we're completely denying the existance of God, cause we're not... I'm not... But I don't have to follow a book to tell me what God wants and how he wants it. Ihave faith that I lead my life the way God wants it to be. And if it were supposed to be any different, God would have made it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 "Live for God"-I have a bit of troubble with this one...I life for myself and others. Sure, if that servers the will of God, then good for me. If not, oh well. I led a great noble life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 If a church can accept gay people and perform some kind of service to unite two of them in marriage, then fair enough. If the church wants to do that, then it's entirely up to them. However, that is not compliant with the fundamental Christian beliefs. Ultimately, all scripture is believed to be given by God, through inspiring people-- I have no problem with whether or not you believe it [i]did[/i] happen, but ultimately, if God really is there and if he's as powerful as religions tend to think, then surely it [i]could[/i] happen regardless of whether it did or not. Ultimately you have as much proof that the Bible isn't of God that I have that it is- and if it could be, then it's all down to belief at the end of the day. Now, Christians ought to believe the whole Bible. If they don't, that's what's known as "compromise". And believe me, some of the things which the Bible says which "go against science", don't really. Like the famous verse which says that the Sun goes around the Earth.. actually it says the sun goes around the sky. Look into the sky and lo and behold, that's what you see. Regardless of whether the Bible is from God or man, it is written from a perspective from [i]Earth[/i], and thus you have to take it that way. Now, there are quite clear references in the Bible that homosexuality is not what God wants-- and seeing as the Bible is the centre of Christianity, it seems a bit silly to perform "God-ordained" marriages with gay couples, if the religious text goes against it. Thus I believe that if you're gay and want to marry, you should look to do it legally, but not in church. Many churches may decide that they're going to be more "open to new ideas", but at the end of the day that's up to them. [b]PLEASE[/b] bear in mind that it also says in the Bible "for God so loved the world that he sent his only son, that [i]whosever[/i] believes in him shall not perish but have eteranal life". REGARDLESS of your sexual orientation. I have [i]no[/i] problem with gays, and the nuns which TN saw were quite right when they said that Jesus loves everyone. The point I'm making is NOT a matter of whether or not God loves you, it's a matter of whether or not God supports the relationships you may be in. That makes you no less loved by God, and it makes you no less loved by me, all it means is that I can't agree with what you're doing, in the same way that I don't agree with a few people even [i]within my own church[/i], but I don't believe God saves us based on what we do, but on whether or not we want to be saved. In summary: 1- You have the freedom to do what you want 2- I have the freedom to disagree with what you may be doing, but 3- That doesn't mean I have to hate you for it. And ultimately, I can't support something I don't agree with- if some churches feel that they agree with homosexual relationships, and they can support it and ordain it, then that's fine. But a lot of churches don't feel that way, and I don't think anyone should expect them to conform to what they don't agree with, bearing in mind that in many of these churches there's no actual hostility towards homosexuals. (please don't correct me on that- I'm not talking about your average, dead, congregation of 20 church, but the lively ones that [i]actually practice[/i] love and forgiveness- if you went to one you'd find little hostility at all) Hope I managed to elaborate a bit on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 [color=#707875]I agree with you, Dan. And that's basically what I'm also saying. The point is, the United States, United Kingdom and Australia (the countries most relevant to members here) are not theocracies. They are pluralist, secular democracies. My fundamental point is that gay marriage doesn't impede the rights of anyone -- religious or otherwise -- and it doesn't prevent them from disagreeing or from rejecting homosexuality. If gay marriage saught to change the actual belief system of the church, that obviously wouldn't be right; just as the church's disapproval of homosexuality shouldn't be enshrined in the constitution as a law. The key issue is to ensure that all parties have appropriate freedoms under the law, where either party's practices do not impede the rights of the other. So yeah, I think most of us are agreeing with that sentiment -- Dan, I appreciate your willingness to look at my side of the issue and to understand the secular/state-related aspects. Far too many people look at this as a purely religious issue, where it's obviously much broader.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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