Gay Marraige?

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OlgaTheDwarf [/i]
[B]I am a Christian and believe that God created Adam and Eve (not Adam and Steve) as the first humans. [/B][/QUOTE]

lol... ofcourse he created Adam and Eve (Steve wasn't even a name back then anyway).... I mean seriously, how dense can you get?.... He made Adam and Eve cause he wanted them to be fruitful and multiply... that would be kinda hard had there been two men there now wouldn't it? In fact that would have been then end of the human race. I don't think God wanted that. I mean seriously, there was no need for Gay people when God created humans. Not if he wanted the race to flurish. I can't understand why people keep refering to this ridiculous quote.

[SadClown]

Today I asked a bunch of my gay and lesbian friends what their thoughts on Gay Marriage was and a lot of them said that they thought it was a stupid thing, the idea of marriage anyway. What they all are fighting for is the same benefits that married couples receive, not the right to marry. I think thats a good point. Marriage is a straight thing.

[OlgaTheDwarf]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]I don't think you can compare being gay to lying and then say that you're not judging gay people.

In any case, please bear in mind what this thread is about. This thread specifically relates to gay marriage and people's opinions on it. We do not need a lecture on how Christianity views homosexuality, largely because it's already been explained ad nauseum in this thread alone. Let's move past that and continue to discuss other substantive issues on this topic.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I said that homosexuality is a sin, I also said that lying is a sin, so I can see where you might have missed what I meant. What I meant by not judging gay people was that if, lets say, one of my friends told me he was gay, even though I don't agree with that I wouldn't treat him differently than any of the rest of my friends. I don't treat people whose lifestyles I don't agree with like scum, simply because they don't deserve that, (and the fact that I don't agree with a lot of people I know). So yeah, homosexuality is a sin which puts it on the same level of lying, but if I judged people on their sins I would be a major hypocrite because I'm a horrible person and a bigtime sinner.
Anyway, well I thought my post was be pretty valid seeing as it's not just Christianity's views but mine also. You said yourself this thread was for people's opinions on gay marriages, and I believe I stated in my post that it's what I believe. The rest of it was just me explaning why I believe that.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]lol... ofcourse he created Adam and Eve (Steve wasn't even a name back then anyway).... I mean seriously, how dense can you get?.... He made Adam and Eve cause he wanted them to be fruitful and multiply... that would be kinda hard had there been two men there now wouldn't it? In fact that would have been then end of the human race. I don't think God wanted that. I mean seriously, there was no need for Gay people when God created humans. Not if he wanted the race to flurish. I can't understand why people keep refering to this ridiculous quote. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, I know what you're saying and yes God did create a man and a woman so they could "be fruitful and multiply", but that's not all. It also says in the Bible that God saw that Adam was lonely, so He created Eve to be his Partner. Another thing is that God is God he is all powerful and saying that He couldn't make us all men is limiting his power. If he wanted to he could have made us all men (or maybe we wouldn't even call ourselves that) and give us all both types of reproductive organs. In fact he could have created us in a way that gave us the ability to reproduce without sex (but what would be the fun in that, heh), but he didn't, he created sex as a perfect union between a man and a woman.

[SadClown]

I've been able to bite my tongue up untill now becuase I didn't want to turn this into another argument, but I think you shouldn't go around spouting all this religiouse nonsence and then in the same post say your a horrible person and a bigtime sinner. There's no way anyones going to take you seriously now. How can you claim to share the same views as Christianity and then also say that you clearly don't follow them. And one more thing, I belive Christianity teaches that sex isn't supposed to be fun and sex without the purpose of procreation is a sin. So it's all or nothing sweety. Either you follow all of Christianty's teachings or you don't. But in that case, don't go around professing things in the name of it when you pick and choose what you want to believe.

[OlgaTheDwarf]

Would you rather me say I'm a Perfect person and don't ever sin. Dude, I tell you that I'm a sinner because it's true, and saying I'm perfect would be lying. I'm simply pointing out that, Yes I'm a sinner and that is why I'm a Christian. I need God's forgiveness that He offers freely to everybody. Yes, I could say that I'm Perfect and float around on my little halo all day saying "turn or burn" but I don't because you would say that I'm being a hypocrite. Even Paul from the Bible said that he was the "Chief of Sinners", and whoa, even if people thought I am even half the man Paul was that be whoa.
As for sex only being used for pro-creation, dude I'm really sorry you think that. Go find a Bible read Song of Solomon, (or it might be Song of Songs, the name is different in a lot of Bibles) then tell me what you think. It's a very beautiful story of a Man and his Wife. I talks A LOT about the pleasures of sex. So, enjoying sex is very much OKAY as long as it's within marriage. But, this is very off topic so if you have a problem with me and my beliefs could you PLEASE PM me. (In fact I would like that very much.)

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OlgaTheDwarf [/i]
[B]
he created sex as a perfect union between a man and a woman. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, he created BREEDING as a perfect union between man and woman. Believe me when I say my penis has a perfect fit in a guys bottom. It's still sex, as defined by the dictionary and almost ever scientist.

Anyway, regardless of that issue... whether or not it is a sin to christians, cause quite frankly religion has no part in legality of marriage, we don't give a poop. We want the benefits everyone else gets. We DESERVE them as much as anyone else. All we've done is try to live our lives as hated individuals since the beginning (except in Greek and Roman times where it was fairly normal to have male lovers or... aquaitances)
In this country, the suppposed land of the free, and where our religion has no place in our government, we should be free to marry what we want (obviously restaints count, but gender shouldn't). If you want, we won't make it a religious ceremony. I don't plan to do it that way anyway, but I STILL want to be married... and I WILL be married one day, whether God likes it or not.

And it fouls me how God can have a plan, and yet gay people exist, They're everywhere... And MANY MANY MANY of us are religious people (I mean look at some of the priest lol)... so as far as I see it, gay people are serving their part of God's plan. And you as christians should do nothing to stop it. Cause you know in the end, it'll all work out the way God wanted it to be. So leave us alone shall you? We don't want to involve ourselfs with you, so don't involve yourself with us.

[James]

[color=#707875]I think the basic issue here is that religion cannot be used as a basis to deny gay people equal civil rights. You might use them as a basis for biggotry or a basis for your own personal views, but that's as far as it should go.

There are two reasons why I say this.

Firstly, the United States (like Australia and most developed nations) is a secular state. It's not like Iran, where everything is based on religious law. I could sit here and provide you with quotes from the bible that, if taken literally, would sound absolutely insane. I mean, you can't have it both ways. A secular state has a responsibility to provide laws that are suitable for all citizens, not just those of a particular faith.

Secondly, look at groups like the KKK. They use religion as a way of discriminating against black people (and gays, and jews and just about everyone else on the planet who is different to them). Does that mean that their views should be formed into mainstream law? No, of course not.

If you want to have a point of view that is based upon religion, that's okay with me. But when you start using that foundation as a basis for denying civil rights to parts of society...that's when things start going too far. Even though I disagree with you, I don't deny your right to hold that opinion. And I don't deny your right to stand on a street corner or in a church, and preach all day about how sinful homosexuals are. I might disagree and I might consider it ignorant and hateful, but I am happy to [i]defend[/i] your civil right to be free.

In the same vein, I also honor the civil rights of two people to enter a legal commitment. It's a commitment that doesn't involve you - it doesn't impede your ability to practice your beliefs, nor does it impede your own civil rights.

So, I'm not coming at this argument necessarily on the basis of whether you're right or wrong to see homosexuality as sinful. I wouldn't even debate your rights if you were a member of the Taliban and you said that dancing and video cameras are sinful too. I don't debate it because it's your right to believe what you will. But when your personal beliefs actually begin to develop inequality in society's laws...that's when the line has been crossed. And even someone who is a fundamentalist religious person [i]should[/i] be arguging the same point as me -- because their very ability to practice fundamentalist religion is protected under the law. If your rights are going to be protected, so should the rights of gay people. That's the core of what I'm trying to get across.[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

Well this little sucker is the thing that courses the problems, or for the Christians that is ?
[b]Leviticus 18[/b]
22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Oh sure Jesus and another man in the New Testament says some thing similar but it?s disputable even by fundamentalist standards. (An American magazine called Fundamentalist Standard isn?t sure to believe that statement by Jesus.)

Now what?s this post for? It?s to try and kill off the bible argument in this debate, of course it?s up to each person to what they believe and the following [u][b]might not[/b] [i]reflect my personal view[/i][/u]. All I?m going to do is expand on my first post and show you what the bible says, and then it?s up to you. You don?t have to believe or change your argument and I?m not asking anything, just that I not be flamed in relation to this.

Okay we have the above line right? Nice and simple? Easy to understand? All it basically says is if you screw another man (and you are a man yourself) you are disgusting in the Jewish law and in gods eyes. In two chapters time I also believe it says that both men must die, but that chapter has a thing with ?And they must die?. In fact it finishes nearly ever sentence like that. That?s their law so I?m not going to bag it, let?s move on. (But feminists should rip it to shreds.)

Now you hear liberal Christians and Gay people say that that part of the bible is out dated and this is why -
[b]Leviticus 19[/b]
19 Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. 27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. 28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.

Now this is only a select few (and not the most amusing) but it just goes to show along with the next few chapters that this is in fact Jewish law and is grossly outdated. I personally do not consider Jewish law to be God?s law but that?s your choice. Though if you do believe in that law take off your shirt and look at the tag, is it made of two different materials? Do you have a beard? Do you have a tattoo? (I also believe it says you are not allowed to eat oysters but I cannot find that passage.)
Are you not yourself or other Christians breaking the same set of laws, how can this be applied to gay people but not me for eating a beefalo?

Now it just gets even stupider in my opinion. I?m not joking read it for yourself and use your mind and the thing that comes with it called logic and see what you think. If you do that at least you will understand it in context and you won?t parrot Leviticus 18:20 like so many Christians I know.

All bibles and translations carry the same basic theme and you should be able to find these passages very easily so I?m not going to link anything. I hope the above enlightened you slightly and sorry for any anti-bible bias in it.

[James]

[color=#707875]Basically, there are a lot of similar quotes that can be brought up -- "laws", if you will. And they do get quite silly if taken literally.

So, I always say one simple thing. If you can take one law literally, why not the others? When do we decide which of these laws to obey and which to disregard? I think that they should all be taken literally, or not. The interpretations in-between annoy me, because they appear to serve an inherent human trait; fear of what one does not understand.

But, this is getting away from the basis of the thread. Cloricus, I appreciate your post in the sense that I understand your intention...and I do appreciate that you're trying to inject another aspect into the discussion.

However, I think it's more useful for us to avoid discussing the basic idea of whether or not homosexuality is right/wrong. I don't think that anyone's view will change, regardless of your attempts to provide further evidence to support equality (but believe me, I appreciate your effort in that regard).

My argument (in my previous post) is, I think, more palatable. It's a basic legal issue that I'm raising...and an issue of mere fairness. I think this discussion would be better served if we stuck to that track, rather than move off into another tangent...because if we move down that other tangent, we're definitely at risk of making the thread redundant (simply because we'll be moving into yet another circular debate that doesn't end -- like many before it on this question). Also, this is a very specific question too; it's about gay marriage. It's not about whether you agree or disagree with homosexuality. I can be biast against a certain racial group, but that doesn't necessarily affect my views on whether or not they have the right to be married. I hope that makes sense.[/color]

[MarkM]

49% of the worlds population is homosexual....so thats saying that they cant get marrired in america iths Bull***t!!! what makes the oter 53% so da*n special.....

its sooo stupid!

[Justin]

I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to use my beliefs to tell anyone they can't be married. Obviously, I can't stop you. If you'll look at my original statement, I said I don't have a problem with it so long as they don't think it's ordained by the God of the Bible--the God I believe in. I still meant and mean no offense by anything I've said or will say. I definately didn't mean offense by the statement 'my God', though I see where that could be taken offensively, and for that, I apologize.

Now there are two statements made I still want to explain my side on.

Firstly, about those laws that are so silly by today's standards: Throughout the Old Testament, the physical body and the way humans represented themselves by was(for one reason or another) considered important. Important enough that all those laws(no tattoos, no clipping of the beard, etc.) were made to govern it.

However, whenever Jesus died as the final atonement, the physical took a back seat to the spiritual. You see this quite clearly because the Bible simply stops its focus on the physical being of its characters. Why this is, I can't say that I know. Maybe I'll do a study on it one day. But that is why we can generally eat what we want, and generally do(within reason, and within holines) what we want to our bodies.

Now, for the statement that Christianity teaches sex shouldn't be fun: Then why is it? God designed it that way, as was said. [i]Catholicism[/i](as well as other denominations, I'm sure) teach that, but it is not biblical. That's half of what's wrong with modern "Christianity". Many denominations of the church aren't biblical. Sectarianism itself is a sin, actually; but there's not much one person can do about that. All one can do for that now is make sure the church he attends is bibically sound.

I again want to stress my position: I don't have [i]any[/i] problem with what people choose to do in the privacy of their own homes. Unless of course, it intrudes wrongfully on the rights of others. I don't hate anyone, regardless of their position on any issue. That would be extremely contradictory of what the Word teaches. If you're gay, I love you just the same as any straight person.

I don't like offending people, that's generally something I try to avoid when I can. However, some things I hold as fact are not the same as what others hold as fact, so a clashing of opinions is bound to happen.

I'd also like to stress to people that my opinions don't represent those of the majority of the staff here. So, if you disagree with me, you're not going to be persecuted for it. As you can see, James and Transtic Nerve are both on the opposite side of this debate from me.

Once again, gay marriage is fine and dandy with me. It's just against what I believe for myself, personally, and what I believe for other followers of Christ, and that's the point I was meaning to make with my original post.

Finally, I again want to apologize for offending anyone with my beliefs. But I don't apologize for having those beliefs.

-Justin

[SadClown]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MarkM [/i]
[B]49% of the worlds population is homosexual....so thats saying that they cant get marrired in america iths Bull***t!!! what makes the oter 53% so da*n special.....

its sooo stupid! [/B][/QUOTE]

Where did you get that statistic? What yur saying is just about 1/2 the population of the world is Homosexual? I think not. It's been proven that 1 out of every 10 people is gay, so that doesn't equal out to 1/2 but more like 1/10.

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SadClown[/i]
[B]Where did you get that statistic? What yur saying is just about 1/2 the population of the world is Homosexual? I think not. It's been proven that 1 out of every 10 people is gay, so that doesn't equal out to 1/2 but more like 1/10.[/B][/QUOTE][size=1]I think it was quite obvious that guy did not know what he was talking about to begin with, lol.

I mean, "49% of the world is gay and the other 53% is not"?

I shall tell you what is so special abuot those other 53%; they cannot count.

:p[/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

49% of the world's population isn't gay... lol... I think you mean 49% of the world's population is MALE, 51% is female... but not gay or straight... in fact it's somewhere along the lines of 10-30% of the worlds populations. Closeted or not.

[James]

[color=#707875]Justin, it's okay. I wasn't aiming my crosshairs at you. ~_^

I was talking about those who oppose gay marriage on a religious basis. If you actually believe that being gay is a sin...I don't care. It doesn't bother me.

But, what I was saying (and what you seem to agree with), is that a religious ideology shouldn't be used to surpress someone else's equal [i]civil[/i] rights. As you accurately pointed out, gay people/relationships/marriage doesn't impede your own freedom. You're still free to practice your faith, you're free to live how you choose and you're free to hold the same legal rights as all others in your nation. Same should go for gay people. And it seems like we agree on that...so our stances are not different at all on that particular issue.

[/color]

[Sandy]

Actually, if I may tell everyone another story from my northern homecountry: about an year ago it became legislated that two people of the same gender can [b]register[/b] their relationship. This was of course big news to the thus far pretty silent gay-population of our nation.

When the parliament voted on this issue, the news showed people gathering outside the parliamenthouse. Most of them were "rainbow-people", with colorful clothes and signs. Then there was maybe 20-50 people who kneeled to the first steps of the parliament house, and prayed for the salvation of this country during the whole voting, and I got to admit, that was maybe the most absurd thing I have ever seen Finnish Christians do. I mean, they were chanting "God save us... We will be doomed..."

I personally think that was shocking (but I got my nasty satisfaction from when the law went through, and the prayers left with a sour face ;) ). I think they made a perfect fool of themselves, in front of the 5 million people population of this country. Well, that was their decision, so...

But from that moment on, gay- and lesbian-couples have the law on their side when it comes to registrating their relationship. The church (about 85% of Finnish people belong to the Lutheran church) however, has mostly denied doing the actual ceremony to the gay-couples, which I think is okay.

As an atheist I see that Christians can believe in any weird stuff they believe in, as long as it doesn't intervene with my life. I totally agree that if the Christians think that being gay is wrong, nobody should force them to think otherwise. But Christianity is just a religion among many, and it has divided many times before, so why can't it divide in this matter, also? It's not like any religion is "the one and only". If "God-fearing" gaycouples want to get married in a ceremony, they should have a church of their own - Who is stopping them? People can "re-edit" the bible, like they did at the Councils in the first millennium: take away the parts that they don't like. It's just a book - a book that is different to Jewish and Christians, but is said to be the same book nevertheless.

Humans are so eager to divide stuff, to categorize them and put them in order, so who really cares if gay people (and those who support their cause) organize a whole new sect of Christianity. I just think it's sad, but the world is what it is, and mere individuals can do next to nothing to change it.

[SadClown]

^^ One of the more intellegent things I've heard all day. Thanx! ;)

[Anti]

Im jsut gonna say one thing...First the avarage morals of this country is based on christian code, whether you like it or not, and thus the (mostly) moral battle of gay marrage is based on religious morals. Dosn't matter if you, me or that person over there dosn't like it, its how it is. Also this country is by and large religiously christian, one sect or another, and as long as we have religious polticians passing laws on a religious moral code, then this is a religious fight, period. no matter how much you like or dislike religion. All this "oh this isn't religious, or oh America is religiously free" got news for you, it isn't. ALL of us who interact with AMERICAN society are interacting with the base christian religious beliefs that this country was founded on. Freedom of religion was meant at first within a christian religion. - Now I know msot of that is off topic but Im tired of staring at ignorant bubbles, if your gonna talk about gay rights, understand your talking about what many consider to be a moral battle, false morals (which is what I think..)or not. Don't like it? get over it or change it.

Aerica is far from freedom of religion and so is american society, we may now be more tolerant of none christian religions, but things such as "equality" and indifferentce to religion will never exsist in the goverment as long as we have religious people in goverment, for they will make decisions based on THEIR moral codes, which are largly influenced by their religions.

As far as gay marriages go, Im indifferent, not my problem, their choice not mine, I don't much give a danm for marriage in general so why should I for a group of people Im generaly indifferent to? Your choice, your consequences.

[Guest cloricus]

Just to swing this back onto the legal issues, I personally am not aware of any "dna" laws that prohibit gay relationships. These dna laws are the ones that stop inbreeding and things accruing in our society, so if there is no law against gay people being together then why from a legal point of view is it wrong for them to be married?
If you are talking about a wedding that involves going down to the registers office and signing a paper I cannot see where any possible problems are. (Australia) Is a free country and if the couple is not infringing others beliefs by having it in a church then that should basically kill any religious argument and just leave it at a legal standpoint.
Am I wrong?

[James]

[color=#707875]Well, I think it's reasonable to say that most laws are based on "religious code", in a sense. But there is only so far you can take that. You don't have to be religious to know that murdering someone or raping someone is wrong. Obviously, these laws have a purpose to protect individuals in society.

But as far as gay marriage goes...I think it becomes irrelevant whether you even agree with it or not. I mean, it's not really about your agreement. It's about civil rights. I could go back in time and talk about the days when men didn't want women to have the vote (or, let's say, the "majority" of men). That doesn't mean that women should have been satisfied with the laws as they existed at the time. Obviously, their civil rights were being violated.

I don't see a difference here. There are many practical issues involved, issues that affect the lives of people in a serious and substantial way (as I mentioned, about one partner going to hospital or dying). As a practical matter, I think it's simply about legal equality. You can still disagree...and you can still have your own freedoms.

A lot of people seem to suggest that their freedoms are eroded by something like this. But I think that's very one-sided. As they say "I may not agree with what you say, but I'd die to defend your right to say it", or something along those lines.

I agree with Cloricus' last post here. I think if you look at the pure legal issues, you realize how critical equal civil rights really are. And perhaps more importantly, you realize how unfair and one-sided the law can sometimes be.[/color]

[Anti]

Jsu one thing, while such common sense things as women equality, gay equality, not killing people etc etc, seem like DUH!

thats all persepective based on the morale code you were raised on. If you were raised under a society of a different morale code your view would be different.

[James]

[color=#707875]That's true. But we're not dealing with that possibility here. We're talking about what's appropriate for our own developed society.[/color]

[PloKoonDS]

....... I wont waste any more time reading this, or anything at all on this beyond this retarded posting. What Justin say's is what I say, because from reading what he HAS said, and not taking it out of wack or anything, he is head on with my point of veiw.

Over all, my statement of this thread being "retarded" I will stand beside the rest of my life. I dont really mind if its breaking a rule either, because after all its just my opinion.

Plo Koon

[BunnyBunny05]

[SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman][COLOR=firebrick]I have to agree w/you so much. lol. How in the world can you be anti-american when you are gay....that's a shame, seriously. This is one racist country.....*Balls up fist and starts to cry*:crying: I am feeling kind of sick right now.....more like I need to go to the hospital.... :sick: [/COLOR] [/FONT] [/SIZE]

[TheEsca]

Well, im brand new to this board, and i will state my thoughts. My friends told me this was a pretty cool board, but i see alot of fighting, and dear i say...."nazi"-ism. So i will watch what i say, but i will exercise my freedom of speech.

A- i do not agree with homosexuality or homosexual weddings.
B- i do not judge people on being homosexual, but i will not support it in my personal life
C- I know homosexuals and i know bi-sexuals, and of course i know hetrosexuals, i treat them all as i would want to be treated

well, thats my two cents. i will talk to you all later i suppose, have a good evening.