Something to Really think about

[FartMaster745]

If all that we know, all phisical realm that surrounds us and us as well consists of particales like atoms, electrons, neutrons, radiowaves and others, and all of the above as we all know obays chemical and phisical laws - how can we say that we really are intelligent beings and can take our own decisssions?
Does that mean that that our thoughts are just chemical reactions which are destined to give out pre-defined results?
Does that mean that free will is just an illusion and the end result will be exactly the same as it was meant to be unless there would be an "outside interference"?
And might there be "something" behind the process adjusting it according to "it's" plan like adding catalsisers to the reaction?

Kind of makes you thing of God and Soul doesn't it?


Could anyone find a flaw in the "thought"? It realy makes me nervous, are we all so insignifican't? I won't be able to sleep for months now...

What are your thoughts about this?

[OtakuSennen]

o_O ..Whoa.. That's deep.. Very deep..

(I didn't think someone named FartMaster745 would be that philosophical)

Hm.. Well. I can find no flaws with it..

Just think of us as toys.. Dolls or what have you.. Made of plastic.. (Yet for us it is atoms and molecules* Then what controls the dolls? Well, then there's a supernatural omnipotent force.. God.. Then there's the annoying little kid that takes the toys away.. That would be Satan.

But then-- What controls them? Or are the little kids self-reliant?

Ow.. My head hurts..

[FartMaster745]

This is one of those times where you can quote someone famous like Albert Einstien:"Life is a mystery to be live, not solved."

Its very frustrating because just as we find answers to something, a thousand more questions arise.

[AzureWolf]

Ah, fudge... Why do you have to ask this question at midnight? I feel like an idiot: forgetting every argument on the side of free will... Except one... :shudders: Yeah, this support is as lame an answer as you'll get, but you brought up atoms and electrons and it's the only thing that comes to mind. :o

[B]Heisenberg's (sp?) Uncertainty Principle:[/B] [I]You cannot measure both the position and speed of a particle at the same exact moment in time.[/I]
Apply this principle to electrons and it produces some "unexplainable factor." When you see an electron, physically, in front of you, with whatever object (i.e., electron microscope), that's all your going to be able to figure out. Why? Because in order to see an electron, the electron must first emit light, but that creates another problem: for an electron to emit light, it must be excited and release energy, producing a photon (the smallest/simplest light energy, which is what you see). When you see that light emitted from the electron, realize that this photon energy has affected the electron (an electron doesn't just release energy and stay in the same state, mind you), and it creates a new and unknown direction for the electron, one that was not previously expected. NEVER is the movement of an electron predictable.

Some people call this factor "free will," while others call it "the random actions of an electron." It makes you wonder, though, is it really random, or is free will just something that science cannot explain, and something that's dismissed as "random?" How else does science define free will except as "a series of random events?"

[SS3Vahn]

yea i just got a major headache from that. so, if what OtakuSennen is saying is true, then what controls the omnipotent force? is this a neverending chain of these forces are controling the lower ones over and over again? man, i need some asprin......

[Kitty]

I happen to think that... umm... o_O; I.... um... have um.... no clue. I don't think that we make our decisions based on chemicals.
We do have souls. (Maybe. And I'll get my crush to actually talk to me in a long conversation. Wait... is that possible?!?!?!)
Ouch.... My head hurts.... Wait... is that pre-determined!?!? o_O

~A girl who thinks she has brains, but doesn't know for sure she does, but is told she does... and her head hurts after thinking about her head... Ouch....~

[FartMaster745]

AzureWolf,

Electrons and protons are known to have charges. These charges can be named anything, but the scientists choosed negative and positve. Everyone knows that objects with the same charge repel and objects with different charges attract. Since there are literally billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of electrons and protons flying around, electrons are constantly being pulled and pushed. This is my reason why the movement of electrons are so unpredictable. I hope this makes sense.

Okay to stay on topic.

I have a question that I just thought of last night. How are souls created? I mean the population of humans, animals, insects, ect.., on earth has rised incredibly. If all of these questions are to be answered, will it help find the meaning of life?

I hope that I have open some of your minds.

I feel so weak, all I can do is ask more questions...

[wild thang]

if what youre saying is true about the predetermined answers and outside forces interacting, does that mean that everytime you take a quiz or a test and get an answer wrong its because a force moved the right answer out of your head?

personally, i think that we are able to think for ourselves because of the fact that society constantly changes and progresses. or is that what was supposed to happen and has happened according to plan? whos controlling us? if one persons mind is interferred with for just a millisecond, could that cause a whole string of changes in the plan? man, this a lot like final destination.

i didnt know i could think that hard.

[FartMaster745]

wild thang

Are you replying to my comment on electrons? That was just my explanation on how electron are unpredictable.

If you break the human(animals, anything living) body down its smallest possible form, you would get molecules, then atoms, then protons, electrons, neutrons, then quarks(anything smaller then electrons, protons, and nuetrons).

Then if you break down cheese into its smallest form you would get the same result, just with different amounts.

But why isn't the cheese walking, talking, living?

[AzureWolf]

[quote]Electrons and protons are known to have charges. These charges can be named anything, but the scientists choosed negative and positve. Everyone knows that objects with the same charge repel and objects with different charges attract. Since there are literally billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of electrons and protons flying around, electrons are constantly being pulled and pushed. This is my reason why the movement of electrons are so unpredictable. I hope this makes sense. [/quote] ::scratches head:: :confused: I mean, I know what you said, but I don't see its relevance to what I said. :huh:

Realize that anything within an electron microscope is isolated by existing within a vacuum. Within that vacuum, we've got an electron moving at random. There's nothing else there except the electron's own "free will," if you want to call it that. Nothing is interfering with it's movement/motion except it's own "random" energy releases.

Free will, random: how does science differentiate the two? :)

[GinnyLyn]

Deep, very deep.

Indeed, "FartMaster745" just doesn't seem like an appropriate s/n with someone of your obvious deep thought (and maturity).

I, for one, think it's fascinating that we always have to have answers to every question. A matter of a control issue. Therefore, if we had all the answers, would we be able to control all of the chemical reactions that went on inside of us? Realize that there reactions going on this very instant inside each of us that we are not conciously performing.

Therefore, if we had all the answers, we would be God. Heh, maybe He is the only One that figured it out... *nervous laugh*

Anyways, my thought--and good topic! *yanks your "Newbie" title off, slaps "Thinker" title on* ^_6

[FartMaster745]

GinnyLyn

I very much agree, because I'd rather live a life full of mysteries and adventures trying to find answers than to live a life knowing everything and saying to myself "Been there, done that". Not to be conceded, everyone in school always calls me smart and looks at me like I know all the answers. There are times when I feel like I wish I was dumb just to say "HEY! How was that possible?!" and live the moment than to say "HEY! Cheap trick I can do it to!!".

[Zen]

I think theres a really big picture that humanity has yet too discover. HEy, Albert Einstein, had more reason than any one too not beleive in God. But threw out he found that all of these things that he discovered that there had too be a higher form of being at hand.

[noraa_boy]

Cause and effect is fine, but that is a very mechanistic and immature view of the universe, especially when refering to humans.

Having said that, indeed, we follow certain chemical reactions. Love itself is just a chemical reaction in the brain. Induce the reaction in someone and bingo, they're aroused or whatever. That's how some of the speed seduction stuff works.

That aside, Hawking cited the uncertainty priciple in one of his interesting lectures called "Does God play dice?". Take a lookie here: [url]http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html[/url]
It just might give you some thoughts about your decidedly deterministic view on things.

[XeEmO]

I asked the same question in a previous thread and everyone went against me. Oh well, I agree with just about everything you said. I think you put it much better than I did.

[FartMaster745]

I dont really like the idea of chemical reactions being responsible for our thoughts, but if its truely true then I'll accept it. Thank you all for your replies...

I have a really good question about something invovling our minds again. The question isn't related to the topic, but I dont want to annoy people but making a new thread. So should I post the question here because it involves some thinking, or should I make a new thread?

[noraa_boy]

Ask it here if you want.

[Skyrose]

Yes, the human population *is* rising, which means we must have more souls to fill each body... or do we? Maybe some people are soul-less. O.o That's a creepy thought.

Or, you can think of all the plants and animals, etc, that we've killed or have just... died out. Maybe we're all the same? A human soul and a lizard soul, or a maple's soul (Yes, I believe plants are at the same level as animals, just in very different bodies), all exactly the same things. That implies reincarnation.

Another thing that implies reincarnation... maybe there's another planet of life out there, and it's population is declining equally to ours increasing. Their souls are just reborn over here.

[FartMaster745]

That was what I was thinking too Skyrose.

My next question:
Why do we see dreams?

Usually sleeping is like a teleportation to the future for our mind, right now we are here, falling asleep, and the next moment we are waking up. It seems to work very fine, but if we are inerupted in our sleep - we often remember uncontrolled images and sound. Sometimes they reflect our daily life, sometimes they're something we could never imagine.
If we need sleep to rest - perform no action for some cirtain time every now and then, then why is brain producing dreams?
Scientists believe that we all, always see dreams, but usually don't remember them because they are stored in our temporary memory which only stores memories up to 5 mintues.
But what is the reason for dreams if we don't remeber them? What are the reasons for dreaming in the first place?

[noraa_boy]

You know, doing a search on google would be the best way of tackling this.

But from what I know, this issue is still being debated by scientists. I think that dreams are when your subconscious grabs some random bits from your memories of things that really affected you can replays it again.

However, dreams may have more of a ... spookiness about it. My mother used to dream vividly of places that our family was going to go, even right down what clothes we were wearing. Bear in mind that the clothes she saw us wearing were ones that she hadn't even bought or seen before yet.

Also, there have been many cases in history where dreams have been used to warn people, or even for God to state his instructions, as seen in the Bible.

"For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men and sealeth their instruction..."

Book of Job, 33:14-16

[FartMaster745]

Lol, I know that google search can help me find answers, but I want to know what the common mind thinks.

I once had a very scary dream once. I was running away from something in hallway were running towards the exit only get you further away from it(strange huh). In this dream I was very scared. I didn't know what i was running from, but I was very scared. Then I just fell into an abyss. Just as I fell I woke up.

This may sound very weird but its true. I didn't wake up because the dream was too scary. I woke up because I literally fell. Not off my bed, but it was like I was floating above my bed and just fell.

Does anybody else have the same experience?

[Sniglefager]

I've had weird dreams like that too. One dream, I was being dragged into a hull. Someone was yelling my name, and right when the person opened a door and pushed me in I woke up. Another time, I dreamt I was in a car with someone, and another car rammed into us. They tried pushing us off a bridge, and they finally did. Right when we hit the ground, I woke up, and my leg jerked. It was really weird. I think the reason we dream when we sleep is because, if our brain was doing nothing, we would basically be dead, just like if our heart stopped. Of course, that's just my opinion

[noraa_boy]

My weirdest dream was when I found a lot money or something in my dream and I realised that this was too good to be true so I asked this guy next to me(I like to think of him as my subconscious) if this was a dream and he said yes. After that I woke up straight away.

[FartMaster745]

What is the purpose of dreaming though? Is someone sending us a message? Or are our dreams fed by guilt? I think guilt is the answer for me.

The brain has enough jobs to keep from going dead such as keep the heart beating, breathing, keeping our eye lids shut, trying to keep the body from reacting to dreams(like sleep talking and sleep walking). I think my brain can think about nothing for a minute or two when I'm spacing out after thinking really hard on a certain subject that requires a lot of thinking.

[Sniglefager]

I can't explain the purpose. I'm not the smartest guy in the world (though I wish I was). But maybe somethings are better left un-answered.

EDIT: I found this.

"They also believe that the brain needs to get rid of information processed during the awakened state, and that dreams are a channel for the elimination of these informations and for the adjustment of the brain. The responsible agents in this search for balance, would be special structures in the brain."

That doesn't explain why I dreamnt my teacher was a vampire once lol