Time in Dimensional Terms (Theories Inside)

[Corey]

If you are reading this and wish to post something either with your own theories or commenting on mine, I want you to leave any kind of God out of it. This is a purely scientific topic. No philosophical talk please. I want pure scientific discussion. Also keep in mind that this is pure theory. This is what I believe.
---The dimensions that have known boundaries are displayed through the use of segments.
---Ones that don't are displayed through rays.

[img]http://yerocsoor.250free.com/1d.jpg[/img]
1d

[img]http://yerocsoor.250free.com/2d.jpg[/img]
2d

[img]http://yerocsoor.250free.com/3d.jpg[/img]
3d

[img]http://yerocsoor.250free.com/cube.jpg[/img]
A 3d figure

[img]http://yerocsoor.250free.com/time.jpg[/img]
Time, in dimensional terms.

3d is what we perceive time in. The fourth (4d) is the never-ending flow that is time.
5d could be time moving backward, taking into account that 4d is time.
6d could be time standing still. Infinity suspended in a moment.
7d could be time moving in both directions at once. A singularity I can't even imagine.

This is what I see.

[Baron Samedi]

I dont understand that. I would reply, if you could somehow explain it better. And isnt the 'space' dimension in there somewhere? I love this kind of stuff, but require more information *Feed me the KNOWLEDGE*

[Guest dayday]

I don't believe in a 1d. Then that would be only one dimension to the object. It would only have one side and only be looked on from one angle. So, I only get 2d and so on.

[DevilzAdvocate]

no i really dont understand this either but it does look quite interesting, could you try a little more detail, thanx :D

[tattoi nobori]

Pretty heavy topic... cool!
[quote] I want pure scientific discussion. Also keep in mind that this is pure theory.[/quote]
I think first off, we should clarify some definitions. Science is the overservation, identification, and description of phenomena. A theory is a statement [i]devised to explain[/i] phenomena. By these definitions, your post is a theoretical exploration, not a scientific exegesis. I would normally let it go, but you made a point of requesting (and then, seemingly, countermanding that request) that discussion be limited to that of a purely scientific nature.

Anyway, onward! ?_?

One common misconception relating to [i]n[/i]-dimensional thinking (where [i]n[/i]>0) is that when we "reach" [i]n[/i]>3, time travel becomes possible. Apparently, this is based on Einstein's musings that time is the effect of our 3D universe passing through a fourth dimension. Consider also that Einstein regarded time as relative. Without an absolute measure of time, the idea of time travel is questionable at best. To extrapolate this further and make assumptions regarding the fifth, sixth, and higher dimensions is quite incorrect!

By strictest definition, the fourth dimension can be thought of as anything quantifiable. It could be time, as you speculate, or it could be peanut butter! ?_? However, most serious discussions on the subject treat it as an extension of, or new direction in, cartesian space.

One thing we do agree on is the appearance of the most commonly referenced fourth dimensional figure, the hypercube, or tesseract. (The figure below is the graph of the tesseract symmetrically projected into the plane.)

[IMG]http://mathworld.wolfram.com/himg3906.gif[/IMG]

Obviously, it's not very helpful to just throw that up and say, "See! There it is..." The problem for anyone trying to visualize [i]n[/i]-dimensional figures for [i]n[/i]>3 is that we are constrained to a 3D world, so the tools at hand are lacking. It's harder still on a computer monitor, because we're trying to display [i]n[/i] dimensional geometry on a 2D medium! The best method I've found for visualization is projections of figures into the plane. (In this case, the monitor.) Consider the following series of projections, which depict [i]n[/i]-dimensional hypercubes, for [i]n[/i]=2-7.

[IMG]http://mathworld.wolfram.com/himg3909.gif[/IMG]

Beautiful! The figures get more complex, and more beautiful, as [i]n[/i] climbs. Unfortunately, they also become amazingly difficult to imagine. However, among certain high-level geometry geeks, there is talk of an [i]n[/i]-dimensional space where [i]n[/i] is infinite, called Hilbert space, that displays as a flat surface! (Too much, too much! ?_?)

Well, I guess I've gone on long enough. Anyone else want to weigh in?

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Although I have very little scientific inclination, I thought that some tidbits of info that I have picked up here and there may lend to this discussion. It is my understanding that tachyon particals are a proven scientific threory and exist, or are a part of (or however you want to group it) the third dimension. Since they travel faster then light, and to my understanding faster then the concept linear of time, I am led to the assumption that time is relative within the third dimension.

If you view time as an infinitly large bowl, rather than a linear progression, you can visualize how acceleration could be the key to time travel, or at least the key to faster space travel. Obviously this is just some brief speculations that I have made...but I don't understand physics enough to truly add to this discussion.[/color]

[Corey]

When I said purely scientific discussion, I had already had two pots of coffee. Insomnia can sometimes lead one to say the wrong thing. What I meant was nothing that uses God or some paranormal being as a way out.
-----
tattoi, if you could post more information on the tesseract item I would be much appreciated. It intruigues me.

Heaven's Cloud, if you visualize time as a bowl then it seems possible to have time stop and then move backward. Like so,

[Guest Crimson Spider]

"I would have to agree with tattoi nobori on this one. Einstein?s theory is that time is the fourth dimension. KnightOfTheRose mentioned other dimensions like fifth and sixth, but they all seem to just be variations of the fourth one in Einsteing?s theory. An object can be short or tall; it?s just a variation of the same dimension. It might be the same with time.

As for time travel, I don?t know if it is possible. One theory stated that if it were possible to make two carbon-copy energy generators, shuttle one at a very fast velocity (so it is in the future, like the Planet of the Apes) and then walk into one, you would come out of the other at a different time.

Now time travel is in question, however time manipulation is not. According to Einstein?s theory, time is manipulated by gravity on a regular basis. Objects falling into a black hole slow down according to our perspective (the higher the gravity, the slower the time) and some have tested that theory with stopwatches and what not. What?s my point? Well, gravity is one of the weakest forces in the galaxy, preceded by electromagnetic forces, nuclear interaction, and so on. Most forces are only on a molecular scale. But, if we were able to control the ghastly large amounts of electromagnetic forces required to manipulate time, we may be able to reverse it or make something impermeable to time, or something of that nature."

Now, that is what my sister says. Not me. Do NOT give me credit.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KnightOfTheRose [/i]
[B]
Heaven's Cloud, if you visualize time as a bowl then it seems possible to have time stop and then move backward. Like so,
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]If you visualize time as an infinitely large bowl, and an object moving through time as a marble dropped along the edge of the bowl, the marble would slowly spiral around and down towards the center of the bowl (therefore supposedly simulating the curvature of time). If the bowl is infinitely large then it has no defined center, therefore, so stopping point. However, if the ball reaches a certain point of acceleration, it will continue to spiral around a fixed axis and cease to progress farther down the bowl, thereby halting time. If the marble was to accelerate even faster it would gradually start moving towards the lip of the bowl, illustrating how acceleration could possibly lead to traveling backwards through time.

Hope that clarifys what I was attempting to explain earlier.[/color]

[tattoi nobori]

[quote]
tattoi, if you could post more information on the tesseract item I would be much appreciated. It intruigues me.
[/quote]

Oops! I guess I haven't been back to this thread in a while... Sorry about that!

Tesseract is another name for a hypercube, or 4th-dimensional cube. There are a few pretty cool [url=http://pw1.netcom.com/~hjsmith/WireFrame4/tesseract.html]sites[/url] with Java hypercubes running, but another way to visualize it is to project it into the plane.

Check out the attatched image, which is an illustration of a normal, 3D cube being projected into the plane. It's a simple but powerful concept, the ability to place your [i]n[/i]-th dimensiontal geometry between a light source and plane, and trace the edges when you have a symmetrical view projected into the plane. (I sincerely apologize for the glaring error in perspective, but there's no [b]way[/b] I'm drawing that dumb cube again! ?_? The mis-placed point is inside the silhouette of the cube on the right-hand side, and it belongs on the projection line second from the right. Crap. I should have re-drawn it...) Anyway, notice that the center point in the projection actually represents [b]two[/b] points in the cube, because for symmetry's sake, we've rotated it so that it stands on a corner, relative to the table.

So, if you can imagine symmetrically projecting an [i]n[/i]-th dimensional hypercube for [i]n[/i]=4-7, you'd get figures like the ones in my post above! I hope that helps... Let's keep this thread running, I love talking about this stuff! ?_?

[AuroraDragon]

I'd like to add to Heaven's Clould with this. I belive that you're saying basically that a black hole or a giant bowl could be used as a time machine. I've heard this theory many times, and it seems to make sense. If you were to jump in a black hole, you'd be taken to 70 year periods in the future; or at least that's what I've read. Therefore, theoratically, it may be impossible to build your own time machine. You'd need a fast rate of energy flowing constantly, if you were to hop in, all laws of gravity would not matter at all, so just like in the movies, you would be bent and twisted and pulled in. So, as in other theories as when black holes take you to some unknown place, it is highly possible that they would take you to the future.

As in a seven-dimentional realm, or even higher, I've also read that black holes might be areas where those accour. Where all laws of gravity and all simmilar would be alliminated.

[Corey]

I feel all wierd now because now what I wrote doesn't even make sence to me.
*groan*

I did understand what you said tattoi. It made sence to me if no one else.
I was thinking about black holes last night while trying to get to sleep. It seems to me that the basis of a black hole is that it does not end, correct? It just wraps through space getting infinitly smaller. But if it continues to get smaller is there a point where it get's so small it has to start expanding again?

I once read a book where someone traveled through a black hole into a place where everything was opposite. Space was white. And most stars shone black light instead of white. Does this seem probably or would the expanding hole siply lety out on another piece of space like a wormhole?

[AuroraDragon]

well, a black hole is a thoery of only a 2d object, if that helps at all.

I don't really belive that someone actually did that, but in other cases, it has all so been seen as a worm hole too.

[Corey]

The book was fiction. I was just posing the question if it could be probable.

[AuroraDragon]

oh, see, I did not know that o.O
but, no, it doesn't seem probable to me at all

[eleanor]

[size=1] I do not see how time can change things in a way so that everything is opposite of what we're used to. I don't think it could be probable...but who knows?

In repsonse of Heaven's Cloud 'bowl' theory:
-I actually think it makes sense. =_= I don't know a thing about all these figures you people are talking about [hey, I'm only 13]....

If the marble were to spiral down the bowl, and the bowl had no defined center and was infinite, I guess you'd use that to define the 'time' we're in right now. Going into a black hole, in my opinion, would not make the 'marble' to actually go any faster. I personally think the force of gravity in the black hole would kill you, but...yeah.

But if the marble were to slow down, that would mean it would go faster into the future, yes? Well....doesn't that mean that we must slow the speed of the marble to go into the future? :/ And we'd have to go faster to go back into the past....it's interesting to say in the least.

If I were to imagine time was a ray going on infinitely, how could we go into the past? Could we slow something down so much that it would go [i]backwards?[/i]

....In movies, we usually get the idea that when someone time travels into the future, they are surrounded by a futuristic world. But if we take the bowl theory, and the ball looses its acceleration and jumps into the future, will anything be there? Will anything actually be changed? If that marble were to be Earth, the marble would stop, how could it stop somewhere if the bowl is infinite with no center? O_o[/size]

[Corey]

I love this mind cramping talk.

It could simply lose momentum and stop, thereby causing it to no longer spiral down the bowl but fall down it in a straight line.

[Shaun]

In one of my classes in school, the professor brought up an interesting point: There isn't anything that makes time other than we humans. In other words, time wouldn't exist if we didn't exist. We have the conscept of time because we need it to plan. If we didn't need it, would it exist? I think not. So basically what the guy was saying is that time is an invention of ours. Kind of interesting, isn't it?

[Baron Samedi]

I think not, I have heard about that before. It is unlikely that it would stop to exist. It is like "Does the falling tree, in an empty wood make a sound". You cant test it. But we do not [i]make[/i] time we [i]measure[/i] it. All we do is make a measure of time, we do not create it. Animals do not measure time, but it occurs for them. That is how they get old and die. Trees do not measure time, yet it occurs for them, making them get old, and rotten and die. Time is real. So I disagree with that theory of yours Shaun. Shame that you are leaving, have fun in life.

[AuroraDragon]

I agree with Baron on this one all the way. We only measure time, it would still exist if we didn't walk the Earth. The sun would countinue to raise and set just as it daes now. Time isn't what goes around on a clock, (well it is, but...nvm) it is the procces of the Earth revolving around the sun. Sure, animals don't record it in any way, but it would still be here. Most sleep at night and come out at day; it would never be perpetually (sp?) light or dark if we were not here, time doesn't in any way depend apon us. It wouldn't matter if there wasn't any life at all on the Earth, as far as all scientific laws conduct, does it depend apon living things.

[Solo Tremaine]

I had always thought of time as being a fairly linear thing, except the problem with that is the creation of the Universe- something can't logically suddenly exist from nothing- there would have to be something before that in order for there to be something spring from it.

I've often wondered what caused the Big Bang, and I kind of theorised that maybe a new one was created with each Black Hole, when the material inside becomes so densely packed that it explodes outwards cataclysmically and restarts the Universe. But, that said, Black Holes do actually release matter- thin particle streams do escape from it, and are visible using X-Rays, I think. I've never done any Physics past an AS-Level, so I'm probably wrong

In space, time slows down anyway- it's been seen with astronauts, so it's possible you could use a Black Hole as a time-slowing device, if not an actual time-travel device. That is, assuming time was linear. If it were a bowl, you'd need to find a way to jump back to the other side, and you could probably use a Black Hole to do that.

As far as time travel itself goes, I don't think it's possible to travel into the future simply because it hasn't happened yet. So, if you went back in time you wouldn't be able to go forward again back to where you were, because as son as you travel back you've changed history and a new one has to be re-written. In which case you'd have to go all the way back past the beginning of this Universe to get to the very very far future in this Universe in order to get back to where you were to start with. Or something like that.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KnightOfTheRose [/i]
[B]I love this mind cramping talk.

It could simply lose momentum and stop, thereby causing it to no longer spiral down the bowl but fall down it in a straight line. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Not really and yes at the same time, considering that our entire solar system, perhaps the entire universe moves in a correlating spiral dictating the flow of time (at least according to the theory that I borrowed from somewhere). The momentum of one person is moot, because the entire solar system still forces the person to have momentum. If the marble dropped straight down it would mean a rapid demise into the end of existence or time. Perhaps if a planet stopped orbiting correctly or was to loose momentum then the curvature of time would be affected?or at least our conception of time. If a planet did stop, the delicate gravitational balance that effects our solar system would be obliterated, therefore causing the demise of time in the solar system that we know. Again, this is just a theory that I?ve pieced together from various things that I was taught, heard, or read?so obviously my opinion doesn?t mean too much.[/color]