god

[Zen]

Many say different, maybe its just you. All i know is a large percent of Athiests that i have seen are Goths. My goth g/f, i pretty sure she was. Alot goth kids in my school, athiest. Anyway, what is the deffintiton of a Goth? And why are you insulting me in the first place? Calling me "the single most aggrivating person on the OBs." How is that.

Maybe i made a few mistakes here and there all i'm said was that Einstien thought there was a hire being, even though he knew so much about the scientific properties of, well, everything. I never said any one was stupid. Infact, you have. On more than one occasion. YOu have no right to call a person stupid on there opinions? As i said before, i never said all goths were athiest, nor did i say that all athiests were goths.

[AzureWolf]

Maladjusted and Double Barrel Daigo, please don't fight! I don't want this thread closed until I've made a few rebuttals! Anyway, I guess zipping the file wasn't enough to get people to read it, so I'm just going to cut and paste my two cents about whether Science supports God more, or a lack of Him. Again, these were notes for a presentation, so some parts are undeveloped. Still, IMO, it's a good stand-alone, objective product. :D Defining each side of the argument is crucial before actually getting to it, as can be seen from the "goth" argument some people have started. [quote]Thesis: Science originally questioned the existence of God. However, as more and more ?science? is uncovered, God seems to be an indisputable factor to the universe.

- Defining Theism ? The Facts

? Theism: cut and clean, the belief of a supernatural being generally referred to as God, responsible for existence and the universe.

? The clock-maker theory (Deism) is acceptable in this presentation. However, this will not always be the case ? some points may need the interception of God.

? Theistic thinking is associated with faith and obedience

? God is seen as an infinite being.

? God is accountable for everything: what we can see, and what we cannot

? Three general theistic views:
? Panentheism: God is in this universe
? Ex-Pantheism: God is beyond this existence/plane
? Pantheism: God is the universe

? There are extreme theists (stubborn), passive theists, and argumentative theists (anti-atheist).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Defining Atheism ? The Facts

? Atheism: the denial of God.
? There are several ways of classifying atheistic beliefs, but one point that all atheists can be associated with the disbelief of a god. The defining ways are as follows:
? "An atheist is someone who believes and/or knows there is no god."
? "An atheist lacks belief in a god."
? "An atheist exercises no faith in the concept of god at all."
? "An atheist is someone who is free from religious oppression and bigotry."
? "An atheist is someone who is a free-thinker, free from religion and its ideas."
? Atheists believe that religious thinking hinders freedom of thought

? Atheistic thinking is associated with science and thinking

? Like theists, there are extreme atheists (stubborn), passive atheists, and argumentative atheists (anti-theist).

? Some general beliefs are as follows:
? There is no God or devil
? There is no spiritual realm, no afterlife
? Miracles cannot occur
? There is no such thing as sin
? The universe is materialistic and measurable
? Man is material
? Evolution is a scientific fact.
? Ethics and morals are relative

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Defining Science ? The Facts (Hendrik Lorentz, James C. Maxwell, and Einstein)

? The Science that most closely relates itself to the existence of God is Theoretical Physics (Metaphysics?), which is responsible for bringing cosmology where it is today.
? Theoretical Physics: physics of the universe that need not be proven correct, but are fundamental for other notions or ideas.
? Theoretical Physics have no way of being proven right or wrong, and therefore are completely speculative. However, these theories are based on facts, and are supportive of real-world phenomena (time dilation, length contraction).

? The Universe: Infinite or Finite?
? Thanks to German astronomer Heinrich Olbers, we know the universe to be finite. He discovered so by a relatively simple method of mathematics and logic. Should the universe be infinite, all of space should be covered with light. (As distance increases, the volume of vision increases.)
? A finite universe meant that the universe must be compelled to fall onto itself, as the law of gravity states. Even Einstein?s theory of relativity and other equations compelled the universe to either expand or contract. By using the Redshift phenomenon, and using standards (Cepheids), Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding.
? The discovery of an expanding universe still left many questions unanswered. Closed (fall back)? Flat (zero)? Open (escape)?

? The Universe: Other Information
? Very recently, the universe has been discovered not only to be expanding, but also to be doing so at an accelerated rate.
? Densities of the universe appear to be distributed unevenly. Gravity is responsible for this phenomenon.
? Second Law of Thermodynamics is Entropy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Theism and Science ? A Comparison

? The Cosmological argument: there is a finite number of causes, and therefore there must be one ?cause? that was not caused by anything else

? Second Law of Thermodynamics: Entropy. All reactions create heat, and therefore create entropy.

? Inborn behavior and comprehension

? The universe collapsing in on itself: the apocalypse?

? No center of universe

? The acceleration of the universe

- Atheism and Science ? A Comparison

? The universe is finite. Therefore, God?s infinite existence cannot be considered.

? Densities are distributed unevenly due to gravity

? Science and Atheism both see theism as a ?pseudo-science?

? Darwinism is a theory that, by default, supports atheism
? States that evolution created man, not God

? Expanding universe makes it so that no Godly intervention is needed

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Theism and Atheism ? The Debate
? The pointless points:
? Show there is/isn?t a God
? The bad theist/atheist

? The scientific arguments:
? The Cosmological argument is one that could be perfectly rebutted by the lack of any external force within the universe. However, now that acceleration is present, the atheist argument only holds a relatively unsupported belief that another universe is colliding with ours.
? Entropy clearly rebuts the idea that the universe in infinitely old. The idea that the universe needed a creator cannot be argued.
? Darwinism creates a large debate that ends in favor of an atheistic situation. While it is true that inborn behavior may be adapted from ancestors of evolved species, life still favors an atheistic origin.
? Although the world may be finite, it does not allow us to assume that the age of particles is finite.
? In order for acceleration to be possible, there must be some kind of force behind it. This means that a force besides the universe is responsible for the movement of the universe.

? Ontological argument: Just to be able to think of God proves his existence. Also, there is nothing we can think of that is greater than God.

? The old-age beliefs may just be some kind of myths. Technology and science have time and time again rebutted what was believed to be only explanatory by God (Only God knows).

- Theism, Atheism, and Science ? A Conclusion
Even though I have tried to make a balanced argument, keep in mind that the scientific presentation may have been prejudice towards theism, and the entire scientific picture I sought to create may have been hindered by my inclination to one side. However, as far as the information I have presented goes, I believe that theism is the undisputed champion of belief. There is something about the universe that we can see, and the one that we can?t see, that still beg the questions: Could the universe create itself as well as life? [/quote]

[eleanor]

[size=1][QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Double_B_Daigo [/i]
[B]Many say different, maybe its just you. All i know is a large percent of Athiests that i have seen are Goths. My goth g/f, i pretty sure she was. Alot goth kids in my school, athiest. Anyway, what is the deffintiton of a Goth? And why are you insulting me in the first place? Calling me "the single most aggrivating person on the OBs." How is that.

Maybe i made a few mistakes here and there all i'm said was that Einstien thought there was a hire being, even though he knew so much about the scientific properties of, well, everything. I never said any one was stupid. Infact, you have. On more than one occasion. YOu have no right to call a person stupid on there opinions? As i said before, i never said all goths were athiest, nor did i say that all athiests were goths. [/B][/QUOTE]

Double_D_Daigo, you are pathetic. This is the second time you have quoted me wrong... and how the he** can you have a girlfriend that is Athiest when you're obviously against it?

You're a liar, or someone who likes to make things up and later call them mistakes.

Although I am also at fault here. I cannot scientifically prove to anyone that God doesn't exist. It's a stalemate; nobody will change anyone else's opinion here.[/size]

[Zen]

Okay, lets end the arguement at this. I never said i was against athiestism, i said i don't beleive in it. Just like i'm not Taoist, but i would go out with a Taoist girl. So, yeah. Azure Wolf, i read that thing and its really interesting. Where did you get that from?

[Justin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WW2 [/i]
[B]Ok, I'm just gonna throw this into the fray. Forgive me if it's off topic. :D
Hitler also said God spoke to him about Germany winning WWII. Also Joan of Arc believed God spoke to her, and ordered her to lead an army.

Was these people crazy, or do any of you believe it actually happen?:therock: [/B][/QUOTE]

I question Joan of Arc, but she did successfully lead herarmy.

However, Hitler as proven wrong by the fact that his eleged prophecy did not come true. The Bible talks about false prophets, and one of the ways of identifying them is by whether or not their prophecies come to pass or not.

God does speak to men, but only to those who want to hear Him. God speaks to me; I have a ton of things written down that He's brought to me both directly and indirectly. I'm not much of a prophet, but there aren't many great ones left anymore. I have a few things, nothing anyone would care about here, that God has given to me and they have come to pass, but mostly just about servics and people being blessed at such-and-such a time--sometimes I tell them to people, sometimes I hold them in, just to see if they'll happen--and they do.

I no longer enjoy preaching God's probability by logistics. Not because I lose--to this day no one has ever been able to refute me, glory be to God who gives me wisdom--but because it doesn't save. Jesus didn't use it. He could've easily brought up numerous prophecies to the Pharisees and their kind that He has fulfilled, but He didn't. He could've given them a sign, but He openly denied them that on more than one occasion. Why? Because logic doesn't work. I can logic you all until I'm blue in the face, and you won't believe me. Jesus preached the Good News, and let the Holy Spirit deal with the hearts of men.

The bottom line is that God saves. Whether any of you want to hear it or not, He does save. He saved me, and now He saves people through me. I'm a witness to the modern-day work of Jesus Christ just as the apostles were witnesses to his works while He was still in physical form. I've seen prophecies fulfilled, I've seen people healed, and I have seen the Holy Spirit work in mighty ways.

Yes, I am crazy. You should see me when the Spirit moves, even in the mildest way. Yes, I am narrow-minded. Why would one flee from the truth? Yes, I do preach too much for my own good. Just like Paul, Peter, James, and Jesus Himself. My reason for that is simply that I have two main purposes in life: To preach the Gospel, and to praise the Lord...the latter of which all humans will one day do. And I do it all, and take any flak from it, with the utmost joy and love. I can do it because Jesus lives in me, and though I am more than imperfect(I'm filthy, inside and out), He shines through me, praise the Lord.

That's all I have for now. May the love, mercy and grace of God be with you all. Amen.

-Justin

[Baron Samedi]

Pantalaimon. Pretty bad and controversial topic. I personally don't believe in God. I will submit to the chance of one such Being existing, but I disbelieve the Bible as too many things do not match. This is too difficult a topic to prove or disprove. We currently have Faith Vs. Science. Science cant actually [i]disprove[/i] God, but neither can Faith [i]prove[/i] God exists. The only thing evident in this debate is belief. Belief in the non-existence of God, and in the existence of God. A disprovable topic, for sure. Interesting, but arguments in such a thread go absolutely no where. Disprovable. No way to rpove or disprove another's beliefs. Only blind faith, and faceless science. I personally go for Science, but in the end, does it matter? Live your life. Believe or dosbelieve in God if you want. Does religion really matter that much, that we should waste what may be our only life to look for it. SHould we die for it? Just get on with life, because while God, or reincarnation may be true, it may not be as well. So live.

****EDIT*** I can stand on an Aluminium can. It is coz the cylinder shape is strong. That means i have a SOUL o.O

[lea]

if there was no god, then, anything can be right (it would be right to many people to burn houses, rape and pillage for no reason, all be cause they think its right) what makes right right, and wrong wrong? there is no such thing as a straight line between right and wrong....so, in my opinion, if there was no god, there would be no black and white, everything would be gray....and things would be very very chaotic.

[Sniglefager]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lea2385 [/i]
[B]if there was no god, then, anything can be right (it would be right to many people to burn houses, rape and pillage for no reason, all be cause they think its right) what makes right right, and wrong wrong? there is no such thing as a straight line between right and wrong....so, in my opinion, if there was no god, there would be no black and white, everything would be gray....and things would be very very chaotic. [/B][/QUOTE]

Some people [i]do[/i] think it's right though. I mean, there are way too many rapes for no reason. Same with burning stuff (of course, I like burning things, but not houses) and pillaging. Some people just have warped minds, and/or are insane.

Things arn't gray, but things are very chaotic, with all these suicide bombings, wars, and everything. I still belive in God though.

[AutoKill]

umm... I think bringing "goth", and "punk" people in this hole thing was a bit ludicrous... Sounds to be more like a stereotype then actual fact. Thats almost like saying. Most jocks are christian.
[b]Justin read this[/b]

Anyho, my thinking on how god and religion is actualy simple. (you must think scientifically) When humans started to evolve, their hole thinking became new. Instead of thinking of ways to get food, were they were going to make a house, when to mate,ect. (all basic animal instances) They started thinking about trees, and the sky and the things that they had no idea on how it worked. So what did they do... They made guesses. These guess were non the less wrong, but to them it was cold hard fact. and they stuck to them. It works basicly with every civilization. Today we have became much smarter. and we even think Mythology is silly. (their are alot of references from Mythology to the bible and alot of other things we still us today. Now we are at a conflic at witch their are still alot of religious people, and most scientific people have kind of taken a back set and threw a little bit of new proven things that disprove religion all togeather. This has been going on for hundred of years, back when they started proving that the world wasnt flat. So now their is all this controversy and no one really wants to come out and say anything. Seeing as or hole law is based around some religion. Soon i see this all crashing down. I do wish i can see it also. (i have a thing for major disasters.)
If you had a hard time understanding what is above.. Its basicly says... Humans made religion when they were at the start of their evolution, and this process is on-going.once again i quote Albert Einstein.
[quote]"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."[/quote]
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

thats my 5cents worth.

[Transtic Nerve]

This whole "debate" is just a waste of time.

The people who believe in God will believe in God. No matter what. The people who don't believe in God, won't believe. They certainly shouldn't after the way they've been treated in this thread, thats for damn sure. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's a pity some of you represent yourselfs this way. Thats going for everyone.

I leave this thread on this closing notice: Beliefs are beliefs. Have your beliefs, but have them yourself. It's YOUR belief for a reason, and YOU are not everyone else. So believe yourelf and everyone else will believe in what they want. It's not your job to care about them, it's not your job to preach to them, and it's certainly not your job to try and "show them the light." Don't lead a life blinded by faith, for that is the worst way to live life. You are not God's slave, don't act like it. You are his creation, his child. So live life, enjoy it, whichever way that is, but most importantly, let everyone else enjoy theirs the way they want it to be.