Anime Trigun

[Maully]

[color=green]I am not sure about that pairing either, really... And I really dislike the Eve corrupted Adam thinking. It's blaming the fall of Man on woman, when Adam could have said "No" The serpent corrupted them. That's is why Adam's admonishment from God was much more sever.
Not to mention, in Trigun thining... If that's the theory we are following... Knives was not nearly as successful as Eve was in corrupting the subject. [/color]

[Zen]

Yes, your right, but he did succeed in giving Vash the gun and in [spoiler]making Vash kill Legato, therefore causing him pain and "making him a murderer", as Vash put it.[/spoiler] But by saying the Adam and Eve story compares to Vash and Knives, is not me saying that I beleive completely in it. If you think of it hard, the early series makes it look like Brad, the mean crew member of SEEDS, is the Devil who corrputed Knives (Eve) and Vash was Adam who is inspired by God, or in this case, Rem. But in the end, both failed, and so both were corrupted.

[IloveBebop]

How ironic is it that we are using things pointed in the article for this topic, which is on this site? Since we're using religious symbols, what about the attention toward apples? I don't know why they do that... Is there some biblical point there?

[Maully]

[color=green]Apples are notorious for being the fruit of the forbidden tree, even though it is never said in the Bible what kind of fruit is was. Apples, therefore, represent the Fall of Man, and the the moral shortcomings of man.

In the case of trigun, it also IMO, symbolizes the redemption of at least one particular soul. It is in finally capturing the apple that Wolfwood frees himself from his lifetime of sin and suffering. [/color]

[JazzLady22]

OK, Molletta, I'll try... :)

Right, IloveBebop, there are quite a couple random appearances by apples (i.e- Chapel carries one, Knives takes a bite out of one on the SEEDS ship right before he goes evil), so that could very well be a backhanded reference to Adam and Eve. But like Molletta said, the apple seemed to be more of a redemption symbol, as Wolfwood only got to taste it after he decided not to kill Chapel.

I think Knives did manage to corrupt Vash a bit, but for the most part, was not very successful, as Vash managed to overcome Knives in the end. Some people have suggested God and Satan, and I don't buy that either. Vash isn't that infalliable.

As for Wolfwood, hmmmmmm, he's an interesting one. He kills (and using a sacred symbol to do it), curses, uses the Lord's name in vain, has sex out of marriage, and end up double-crossing nearly everyone on the show. When you think about it, he's more duplicitous than Knives. The only thing I can think of right now is that the Devil's helper was named Wormwood, but that could very well be a coincidence. I don't really buy that he's just a paradox... but I can't think of anything he might represent. Either that or Nightow was making fun of priests when he created him...?

[IloveBebop]

If you look back on the article, it says that the red apple that Knives eats represents the fall of man and that the green apple that Chapel carries represents the redemption of man. At least, that what I found.

[Ellester41]

WHAT IS A PM?? Oh-and Trigun is a really cool show. Vash's past is so sad,with Rem and the crew on the SEEDS ship,but yet some-
how he deals with it! I just don't get how he could be over 100 years old, but look like he's only twenty- or thirty-something... odd.

[Ellester41]

Attention to anyone who cares-
Did you know (or care to) that Millie is carrying Wolfwood's child? Yep. In the episode when Wolfwood dies, he remembers his life, and one flashback shows Millie holding a cigarrete, scolding Wolfwood, saying "Smoking is bad for the baby, darling" or something like that. Just in case you wanted to to know.

[IloveBebop]

That flashback is actually from an earlier episode. I think everyone just assumes that because [spoiler]he's standing next to his bed, with his shirt off, while Millie's sleeping on his bed.[/spoiler] We're talking about religious symbols, right now. I wish that there were people who actually read all of the posts in a topic. By the way, no double-posting.

[MillieFan]

I think that Wolfwood represents the general theme of the anime, that of reconciliation and forgiveness-as well as being a paradoxical and therefore very deep character.
He does all these terrible, confused things that are the exact antithesis of *what* he *should* be and do as a "priest,"-yet he finally, slowly realizes through both his internal conflicts and what is going on around him the truth about what he has done wrong and is doing wrong.

I personally *don't* agree with the simple analysis here, that Nightow was simply mocking priests. It really doesn't fit with other things and the character's too deep for that. IMHO, Wolfwood reminds me A LOT of Spike from Cowboy Bebop: at first, he appears to be a complete paradox and a total lout, but as the story goes on, you see fragments of good in the character, and in the end, he finally realizes how wrong he is-[spoiler]albeit much too late either way, Spike after he chose to kill and is dying, Wolfwood after he chose not to kill and is yet dying.[/spoiler]

Molleta, you made a GREAT point. First of all, in Christian theology, Adam and Eve were separate creations and not related except that God symbolically made Eve from a bone of Adam. Also, in Christian theology, Adam, Eve, and the serpent ALL [i]share[/i] guilt for the fall of man. If this link is against the rules, I apologize, but since it isn't spam or a competing site, and just to prove my point that all involved were guilty, I hope no one minds: [url]http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Genesis+3&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=20&y=3[/url]

Anyway, I don't really think Vash and Knives have any Biblical reference meaning unless, and this is pretty far out there, they are being cast as a Cain and Abel type, which is pretty common in Western settings. However, that doesn't even match too closely unless, in the end of the manga, Knives kills Vash.

I'll post more later: thanks to everyone for getting me back in here (even if you don't want me now! ~.^ )

[ChibiHorsewoman]

Maybe, instead of compairing Vash and Knives with Adam and Eve, you can compair them with Adam and Lilith.
They were created together at the same time and then Knives began not listening to Vash and thus became corrupted. Mayhap that's why Vash decided to seek companion ship with Rem?
The same can be said for Adam and Lilith since they were created at the same time (even tho Lilith is somewhat conspicuously left out of the Book Of Genesis there is proof of her existance.). However, Her and Adam decided that they didn't get along and that's looslely why God Created Eve.
Wolfwood is some kind of irony I think. HE claims to be a priest, yet he doesn't act very priestly. He carries a cross which turns into guns. However, maybe you can look at that as symbolism for carrying his burdens if you're the type with a Christian point of veiw or just like to see things that way.
As for the anime itsself, I can take it or leave it.
Vash is a comical doughnut munching freak with strange hair and a red trenchcoat which I would really like to get my hands on. Yet, even tho he does have the ability to demolish an entire population, he tries his dammest not to do so. And with that note, maybe I can use that for some symbolism.
Let's try to add Wicca into the mix with Christianity. For example: And ye harm none, do what ye will(correct me if I'minterpreting it wrong, but this is how I interpreted the meaning). Vash is trying to do just that. He's trying very hard not to harm anyone else, even when he's being provoked. Also:Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good.
You do realize however, when he does end up injurying others, everyone seems to turn on him, including his own self. There were a few times when he even pushed MEryl away completely.
Okay, so ends my image imagination, I hope nobody is too offended.:)


[COLOR=indigo]This would be comical if I wasn't so drunk[/COLOR]

[Maully]

[color=green]Well, I evidentally killed this thread with the prospect of intelligent conversation. Sorry. Didn't mean to run you guys off. How about this? I lOvE lEgAtO!!!!111 Nope, can't do it.

Vash--That goofy donut muncher. When I first watched Trigun, I though he was kind of annoying, when he would goof out. Now, it's grown on me, you know. He seems two-demensional, shallow at times. The depth of the character at times is good though. I think that the Vash/Knives conflict is well compared to Jacob and Esau (sp?) almost. Twins, one favored by the mother (vash Rem being the mother, of course, and Jacob) the other banished to lead his own country, or gang. Think about it, really...[/color]

[IloveBebop]

That sounds like Trigun. Knives was sort of banished (though not really banished, as he sort of banished humans), and started the Gung Ho Guns. Vash got slightly more attention from Rem, but I think that she favored both of them, because she loved them both like sons. I wouldn't know, I've never read the Bible.

[JazzLady22]

i :love: legoto 2! OMG!

OK, Molletta, you're right, that doesn't work.

It takes a little twisting, but Knives being banished sounds right to me. All the time he was on Gunsmoke, he barely interacted with humans at all. He lived in a kind of exile status, not really doing anything big and obvious against humans (unless you count July, but he hid behind Vash). And after July, he was unheard of for about 20 years.

I think Rem didn't favor Vash much more than Knives at first, but rather Vash wanted to spend more time with her, took more of her advice to heart, and liked her a lot more than Knives. At least I thought that until she cut his hair in a style that meant a lot to her... but she might have cut Knives' hair the same...

I'd like to expound on that, but I need to reread that particular story in the Bible...

[ninj4_monkey]

i've seen every episode with a few freinds and we al agree it was ment for the gods

[KharBevNor]

Trigun doth verily rock. It is the only anime series I have ever watched that had me both guffawing in laughter (numerous times) and crying [spoiler](At Wolfwoods death and several times ine pisode 25.)[/spoiler]

[MillieFan]

*Phew* The odor of sp@m in here is atrocious. Where's a mod when you need one? :p

OK, now on to something that requires a little more thought: Who, exactly, are the shounen ai/yaoi couples in Trigun, if any?

I personally support Knives/Legato and Legato/Midvalley for animeverse and Knives/Legato and Wolfwood/Midvalley for mangaverse.

I think there's much evidence for K/L and L/M in the anime, because the way Legato refers to Knives and behaves around him is very conducive to implications of some subtext there, and Midvalley wears that pink shirt and is always hanging on Legato like he's some groupie or something.

In the manga (at least the translations at "Make A Little Lightbulb In Your Soul"), I think it's implied fairly well that Wolfwood and Midvalley were together in the past but split up. I'm still a definite partisan of Wolfwood/Milly in both anime and manga, because it's such a good pairing, and there's nothing saying Wolfwood couldn't be bisexual rather than pure yaoi.

The pairing I absolutely can't understand is Wolfwood/Vash. Maybe in the manga it's different, but in the anime, they're obviously just friends (aside from that fanservice scene in episode 20 where they landed on each other in that really odd way. . .), and Vash is IMHO heterosexual-all the times he acts perverted when sober, it's with women. Even if Wolfwood *was* gay or bi, a shounen ai/yaoi relationship (unless it's NCS) requires that *both* sides be interested in it. Hence, you heard right-I personally think the most popular Trigun pairing, at least on fanfiction.net, is utterly groundless and OOC. :)

So? What does everyone else think? Any Wolf/Vash fans out there who think you can prove it? Any other K/L or L/M fans who want to actually come out and admit they like a pairing that is generally ignored by the masses?

[Maully]

[color=green]Juat when I fear the worst, you come to the rescue....again, MillieFan. I can see a pairing between Knives and Legato except for one thing. Knives hatred for all humanity. I don't think that Knives would "lower" himself to the level of any kind of realtionship with on, except one like I picture the GHG, a vehicle to use to destroy his brother...

I think the W/V is completely unfounded... It's just some idea that fans enjoy, but it is not supported by the plot of the series.[/color]

[MillieFan]

Yeah, I was lurking all the time, and was about to give up because of all the spam. :sigh:

LOL, yeah. . .however, Knives might use Legato in that way just to torment him, break him all the more. . .sort of like stringing him along in a relationship that will never reach any point of resolution for Legato. . .*cough*

[Xai]

[color=crimson]Well, people will pair up characters that they think look good together, regardless of how well it would work. I think that goes for both shounen/shoujo ai and hetero stuff. :-) But I kind of see why so many people like the Wolf/Vash pairing.. it's hard to explain why. But I agree that they are a VERY popular pairing. Almost every time "Trigun" and "Yaoi" are discussed together Vash and Wolfwood are mentioned.

Now I'm not a big yaoi fan, but I think a yaoi pairing in Trigun that really could work(outside of fanfics) is Midvalley/Wolfwood. I've heard that they had some sort of relationship in the manga. Some people say that they were just friends though. I guess it just depends on how you interpret it.^^;*shrugs*[/color]

[Maully]

[color=green]I could definitely see the Wolf/Midvallry pairing... It's very easy to support if you want to see it. It sticks out really easily to me.

As to K/L pairings...I could see it working as an abuse form from K to L...Legato searching for meaning or more and Knives just trampling his spirit.

I find it difficult to picture Vash in any pairing, really. He's just so Eodipal towards Rem. even the affection towards Meryl that is alluded to is not convincing for me.[/color]

[MillieFan]

Yeah. . .I see IC or implied canon K/L as abuse on Knives's part and unrequited or uncompleted (depending on how you prefer to think of it) longings from Legato. However, on a slight alteration of the universe, if the writer's good enough, Knives falling in love with Legato because they *are* all each other has is kind of plausible. (note "kind of.")

As for Wolfwood/Midvalley (or even the most rare bird in fanfiction pairings since it wasn't implied in either anime or manga despite being quite possible, Legato/Wolfwood), I happen to like these pairings.

However, the one thing I find so annoying about their writers is that they usually outright dismiss WolfwoodxMilly as impossible. ^sigh^ I'd like to see a shounen ai and het writer who was open-minded enough to the possibility that Wolfwood could be equally interested in Milly as he was in Midvalley or Legato. I wish I hadn't retired from writing shounen ai fics sometimes or I'd even try it myself. ^sigh^

[quote]I find it difficult to picture Vash in any pairing, really. He's just so Oedipal towards Rem. even the affection towards Meryl that is alluded to is not convincing for me.[/quote]

[img]http://mywebpage.netscape.com/SassyHush/shecheers.gif[/img] Yay! So I'm not the only one who likes RemxVash! (Of course, I'm incredibly biased since I'm currently co-writing Dark Mirror, but anyway. . .) I'm happy. . . :)

[Maully]

[color=green]I've never really thought too much about Wolwood/Legato... It's an interesting though. I shall have to muse over this one, first thought though, I find it very intriguing.

As for Wolfwood/Milly pairings, I see it as plausible, but unlikely in the long run. I don't think he has the patience to deal with her all the type. He would lose his mind, lol.

Vash and Rem, Vash loves her, truly... I don't think it was the same for Rem though. IMO, she saw him as a little boy and had more of a motherly love for him. As a pairing, I don't see how it would work.

My favorite pairing I think is Knives/Legato, even though I don't see it as working in a healthy menner, and maybe that's the appeal. I did find you Milly/Legato pairing interesting though...[/color]

[MillieFan]

LOL, I wanted to rewrite that one someday I think. I removed that Milly/Legato fic because it just didn't work in my opinion. . .LOL. I like the pairing, sort of. . .I mean, it's heavily intriguing, but I just couldn't make it work. I wish someone else better than me would try it. :)

[Maully]

[color=green]Legato is so dependant...After losing Knives, he would need someone to be his master, if he were to survive. Have I seen that he and Wolfwood are still alive in the manga? I never remember what the differences are at this point. WHy not Milly? I just found it to be a fresh idea, even if you don't like your execution, hehe. I always enjoy a new, fresh take on things. Besides, I love Legato and find him really interesting, so I like things that delve into his story.

Okay, here's a bit of a hotpoint, what about Knives/Vash? Knives wanted to live out his life with Vash alone, and while it is a longshot and is perhaps a one sided relationship, I think this could be twisted, and I emphasize twisted into a story.[/color]