Confederate Flag

[DeathBug]

Shout-out to other Southeners.

Okay, am I missing something about the "Stars and Bars", the Confederate Flag? I've livced in the south most of my life, and live there currently, and I've got to say, this misplaced reverence for the Confederate Flap torques me off.

Why in the heck do so many people brandish it? Do they kow history? Let's see...

*The Confederate Flag is the flag of traitors, who tried to back out of a binding Union.

*The South lost the war because their economy never could sustain itself.

*The Confederacy was a political step backwards, run along the same principles as the Articles of Confederation. The Articles were a failure, and everyone knew it; who's bright idea was it that just because it failed horribly last time, it might work this time during a war?

*Do I even need to mention slavery?

Every time I see someone wear a flag, cap or patch with that flag on it, I loose some respect for them. Why embrace such a spectacular failure?

See, here's the thing: the south is pretty much the only place people can constantly mock with impunity. This bothers me, but I see people holding on to a flawed idol like the old Confederacy, and I see how it can happen. Rather than revere a really crappy idea, why not create a new heritage and tradition, one that doesn't...what's the word....suck. News flash: The South ain't rising again. Sucession was a bad idea, and look where it got them.

As an extension, look where it currently puts the south. The southern regions have been behind the rest of the country ever since the war, mostly because the Union wiped their economy out. If anything, people should be furious with the old Confederates; if they hadn't been so selfish, the entire region would be more prosperous today.

I have been told that some of my ancestors died fighting for the confederacy. Serves 'em right. I mean, it's too bad theyr'e dead, but let's face it: they were [b]wrong[/b].

So, I call upon those that place an undeserved faith in the old confederacy: discard that tattered travesty of a legacy, and works towards building a new legacy for your region, one of prosperity and culture that we can all be proud of.

[Dagger]

Very eloquently written. I wholeheartedly agree with you, although I can't claim to be a Southener--my state is right on the Mason-Dixon line. I tend to become very uncomfortable about people who display the Confederate flag. It reminds me of slavery, racism, and a myriad of other unpleasant things which we should try to remedy and put behind us, rather than get all nostalgic over. Ugh.

~Dagger~

[Adahn]

I think people who display that flag either really haven't put much thought into what it stands for, or don't have much of a mind to use in the first place. In essence, unless they truly believe in one or two of the things it used to stand for, they're just complete idiots who want to impress someone, or piss someone off.

[Gohan Egret]

*The Confederate Flag is the flag of traitors, who tried to back out of a binding Union.*

And why was that? Do you think they just hopped up one day and said, "You know, this Union thing is whack"? Look at the economical ramifications that the expanding West and business North had on the South.

The South's main "attractions" were cotton and, for the most part, tobacco. That is it. The West provided agricultural advances like no other and the North was the business central of the entire nation.

Also, take a look at the number of railroads built pre-1862. Most ran from the West/MidWest/ and North. The South had very few railroads.

My point is that the South was backed into a corner and, like anything that is overpowered yet desperate, the South lashed out. Not to say progress is a bad thing, but it was for the South.

*The South lost the war because their economy never could sustain itself.*

Obviously, that is a historical fact. So what is your point? How does this make proud Southerners today "wrong"?

*The Confederacy was a political step backwards, run along the same principles as the Articles of Confederation. The Articles were a failure, and everyone knew it; who's bright idea was it that just because it failed horribly last time, it might work this time during a war?*

So, because the Confederacy wanted to try something different, even if it did not work, this makes them bad? Hmm...I seem to recall a nation doing that in 1776 and into the 1780's...

*Do I even need to mention slavery?*

Though I do not condone slavery in any way, shape or form, you do know that Northerners had slaves too, right? There was no dotted line (well, the Missouri Compromise, but was later trashed by another document) that made a barrier of slaves to be limited to the South. It was just nowhere as near as widespread in the North as it was in the South.

Oh, and just for future reference, I live in the MidWest (IL) and have all my life. I merely offer these points as a look on the other side of the fence. History is not as black and white as it may present itself.

[DeathBug]

I am well aware of the circumstances and history prior to the Civil War.

Yes, the South was in a slump. However, rather than try to change their economy or improve their lot, they voted to leave the Union. They weren't in a corner; there were plenty of alternatives, but they took the road most bloody. why? Ego.

The southern economy's ability to sustain itself does not make the Confederacy wrong; they were wrong for other reasons. Rather, it made them ignorant. Ignorance should not be celebrated.

The Southern states were ruled under the original Articles of Confederation; their economy fell under this system, as did all the other states. Their economy was precarious enough to begin with placing it under a government who could do little more than watch it rot. They weren't trying anything new; they were trying something old that had already failed. tHe only difference is that they were trying it under much worse circumstances than the last time.

Of course Northerners had slaves. However, the Northerners were far closer to doing away with slavery than the South was; the south couldn't, because it was so deeply ingrained within their economy. Had there been no Civil War, the south would not have abolished slavery under their own accord.

The Confederacy was wrong: morally, civilly, economically and intellectually. They were not "glory days", to be celebrated; it was an embarassment, and I don't see how any educated person could come to a different conclusion.

For all of these reasons and more, I again say Southerners would do better to totally drop the Confederate flag, and move on with their lives.

[Transtic Nerve]

I think the Confederate flag has come to symbolize the south... You wouldn't see someone from New York wearing it. I live in the south too, I see it all the time... alot of people who wear it DON'T know anything about it.... just some stupid hick, literally....

I saw one once that had the confederate flag and it said "Heritage, NOT Hate" and really those people are the ones who truely understand it's meaning. They like the south. They like it's country style. It's about the southern heritage, not about slavery or receeding from the union or whatever. I've met some really nice southerners who display that flag as a sign of heritage. They also have a big American flag right next to it most of the time. Just because it has a bad background doesn't mean thats what it stands for today. It's like displaying a Spanish flag in Mexico, are they gonna think you're there to kill of their society lol. No... or a British flag in America... etc etc.

[Nate]

Newsflash Deathbug: The nnorhteners took the southern economy. The Southerns had their economy fine, then SNorth took it by deleting slavery. Talk about yuorself if you talk about us, too. We retaliated because without up, the norht wouldn't get the coton to make clothes. We did the smark thing. By north gettnig rid of slavery, south could make no cotton, could have no cotton to ship up there, hence they dont' have fancy 100%cotton shirts.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shinobi1827 [/i]
[B]Newsflash Deathbug: The nnorhteners took the southern economy. The Southerns had their economy fine, then SNorth took it by deleting slavery. Talk about yuorself if you talk about us, too. We retaliated because without up, the norht wouldn't get the coton to make clothes. We did the smark thing. By north gettnig rid of slavery, south could make no cotton, could have no cotton to ship up there, hence they dont' have fancy 100%cotton shirts. [/B][/QUOTE]

First off, what's this "we" crap? None of us were alive when this happened, so "we" and "They" are two different groups.

Second, the Emancipation Proclimation was issued after the Civil War had already started; however, because it abolished slavery in areas in rebellion against the Union. Of course, these areas wouldn't abide by the Proclimation, because they were rebelling. It was both a symbolic gesture and political move on Lincoln's part.

Third, the South's economy was stagnant while the North's was expanding. Why? Because they had placed themselves into an economical rut, and refused to progress with the rest of the nation.

The South had other options, but they choose not to use them. They did not do the smark thing, as the chaos and poverty that followed can clearly illustrate.

I am aware that the Confederate flag has become a "symbol" of the South; that is what I'm protesting. It's not a fitting symbol; of all the things this region could use to represent us, why choose such an ignomonious symbol of a horribly bloody time period?

[Semjaza]

I'm not from the South, so I wouldn't know... but not many people would have the balls to display that think here in Chicago, I can tell you that heh.

I don't think anyone here thinks of anything historic or traditional up where when they see it. People here automatically think of racism and crazy southern old men who like to shoot things. I'm not saying that's right, but that's pretty much how it is.

[Ayokano]

[COLOR=purple][B][size=1]........I miss it kinnda......They replaced the old GA flag with this stupid blue one.........

When I found out what it ment,before they replaced it,I thought the past is the past,and it doesn't means anything now.I don't see why it couldn't still be on the GA flag,and a soild blue isn't the coolest thing to look at.........[/COLOR][/B][/size]

[Justin]

The original thirteen colonies were traitors also, and the average colonist male was better off than the average British male.

The South had just reasons for their break, and slavery was not one of the core issues until after the war was already underway. The South [i]was[/i] opressed by the North, and in the Declaration of Independence, it says that governments derive their power from the people, to ensure the people's happiness...and it also says when the government becomes destructive of those ends, it's the right of the people to change or abolish that government.

You can pick any flag is this world, and equate it with something horrible. If slavery and failure to accomplish a task they thought to be just are the only faults you can lay on the South, you need to start complaining about some of the failures and horrible things done under the Stars and Stripes themselves.

Not that I'm anti-American. I'm very thankful for this country. But you cannot condemn the Confederate South without looking at the United States of the time.

Now, I do not agree with some things that certain individuals bear the Confederate flag in the name of. Such as, white supremacy. That has nothing to do with the flag itself. As I said, slavery was a political issue, used by Lincoln to gain support from the West--who initially supported the South. Slavery itself would've been gone after a few years anyway.

I think that people who bear the flag for anything other than pride in their heritage are stupid.

You lose respect for someone because they're proud of their heritage? I'm so sorry, but you'll get over it some day.

-Justin

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B] I am aware that the Confederate flag has become a "symbol" of the South; that is what I'm protesting. It's not a fitting symbol; of all the things this region could use to represent us, why choose such an ignomonious symbol of a horribly bloody time period? [/B][/QUOTE]

They have no other symbol to use lol. Are they just gonna take a cowboy hat and throw it up on a flag pole? They only haveone true symbol of the south, and thats it.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]
You lose respect for someone because they're proud of their heritage? I'm so sorry, but you'll get over it some day.
[/B][/QUOTE]

What heritage? A heritage of political degredation? Bloodshed? Treachery?

The North was not opressing the South; the North was changing with the times, while the South was remaining stagnant. The majority of the South was dirt-poor, slaves excluded. Rather than modernize, the leaders in the south remained stubborn, and resorted to violence prematurely.

Slavery would not have ended in the south; it was too thoroughly entrenched in their economy.

The Confederation was doomed to start with, and there's nothing worh celebrating. As a Southerner, I couldn't think of a worse symbol to represent my region.

[Zen]

There are two interpritations of the Confederate flag.

1. To show southern pride and heritage.

or

2. To show racism, which it is rarily used unless in a seriuos hick town.


I'm southern. I'm from South Carolina. The serious Dirty South. But were not all racist. AS many of you already know, most of my freinds are black. But, i don't know whats gonna happen when i move back there.

[Dmitri_Dragoon]

Actually, you all have a good point. Thought there are still some things that you have wrong DeathBug. The South knew that slavery was going to fail. It was apparent, it was going to die off on its own because of the Industrial Revolution. Slavery wasn't needed as much then.

The only reason the South's economy isn't as great as the North, is because all they had was agriculture. That's all they really have now.

Also, it doesn't help when a certain General marches all through the South burning everything he sees. That sometimes has a tough impact on an economy.

I live in Kentucky, sure it stayed in the Union, but it was a border state. It had people fighting on both sides. Hell I had family fighting on the Confederate side, and that makes me proud. Because they were fighting for what they believed in. It wasn't slavery, it was State's Rights. The belief that each state should be able to govern themselves independantly. Sure, it wouldn't have worked had they succeeded. But it was still something for them to believe in when everything else was failing.

At school we aren't aloud to wear the Confederate flag. The thing is, I know for a fact, that the people the school is trying to protect, the African-Americans, would wear the Confederate flag as well if they were aloud. How do I know? I asked them. They said they even had family fighting for the South.

I think I'll just call it quits on this rant.

[LostProphet]

[color=blue][font=arial]If I may say something....

Although the South did lose the war, it was mainly because of one big mistake....

Special Order 191, the battle plans for Gettysburg, that came directly from Robert E. Lee, were rolled up into Cigars to hide what they truly were. The couriers that were in charge of distributing these lost them aolng the way from one commander to another. Union Scouts happened upon them, turned them over to General Meade, and basically took any element of surprise from the Confederate Army.

I believe, if it weren't for the loss of SO 191, the Confederates would have won Gettysburg, and from there, possibly taken Washington D.C., giving the Civil War victory to the South.

Do I support the ideals the South held? No. Slavery is a bad thing, and the belief that humans are property is absolutely preposterous to me.

If the South would have won the Civil War, and needed to support themselves, I believe they could have adapted. The industrial age had a profound effect on mainly agricultural nations (The US in the early 19th Century, the CSA during the Civil War) and that could have possibly turned the tide on the South's Economy.[/color][/font]

[amibasuki]

[FONT=arial]while to some people the Confederate flag may not have anything to do with its negative connotation, about 95% of the rest of the country does look at it that way.

as an example, you wouldn't go over to Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter) and wear a swastika patch on your coat, would you? sure, you could justify your wearing it by arguing that the swastika was originally a symbol of peace; but because of what the Nazis did while they were using that symbol, everybody nowadays thinks of it as a symbol for hate, violence, and murder. hardly anyone thinks of it for what it originally stood for. you can't go walking around wearing it and expect people to think nothing of it.

when I was in 8th grade, my English teacher saw a girl walking around with this overly exaggerated Confederate flag beaded chain around her neck on the day when we were supposed to be singing a song in honor of Black History Month. she tried using something along the lines of this same debate to justify her wearing it. but she, along with everybody else, knew exactly what she was doing, including our teacher. he took it up, and wore it around his neck while he was out running errands after school. he said everybody, black and white, who looked at him were dumbstruck. he had quite a few people come up and ask him why in the heck he was wearing the Confederate flag around his neck. now why would they ask him something like that? because when most everybody thinks of the Confederate flag, the Civil War and slavery almost always comes to mind, even if slavery wasn't a reason for the war. for them to see a black man wearing the flag so openly was taboo. keep in mind, he said [i]everybody[/i], not just a couple of people here or there, was surprised. if so many people think of the flag with that connation, it eventually does become a symbol for that idea or meaning.

it happens to words, too. gay used to mean bright, pleasant, cheerful, etc., then people started associating the word gay with homosexuals. while the previous meaning still exists, you will hardly ever hear the word gay used in that context in this present time. and even if you don't agree with the new meaning for the word, you can't just act like the new definition doesn't exist.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is basically what I first stated: while the Confederate flag may not be offensive to some people, it does still have that negative connotation to everybody else. and if that's what the majority of the people take it for, then it should have been changed.
[/FONT]

[Harry]

[QUOTE]
[B]You lose respect for someone because they're proud of their heritage? I'm so sorry, but you'll get over it some day.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Before the Black civil right's movement the only state that flew the confederate flag was missouri, but when it happened all of a sudden all the southern states flew it. It is a sign of racism.

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]Poor Texas. lol. It had barely been in existance, but had already been through one war and was suddenly sent into another one. From what I have read, Texas was predominantly Confederate- and sent alot of its populace to the front line. Yet, with that said, I have honestly never seen anyone donning a Confederate flag in any form, ever. Plus, there are a few others things in Texas history that we can brag about if we wanted to [unfortunately some people do].

I see the Confederate flag as a symbol of someone takeing up a cause. If people want to cry "evil racist symbol" consistantly, then they can- if it was a real southerner wearing the confederate flag, then he would care less how people ract.

With that said, there are many other things southern states could be proud of that are more modern- maybe to lessen the 'argh, evil' controversy about this- but, of course, I let them do as they wish.[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by amibasuki [/i]
[B][FONT=arial]as an example, you wouldn't go over to Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter) and wear a swastika patch on your coat, would you? [/FONT] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]lol. Please, spare me. That is a whole different thing. The Nazi's killed jews, gypsys, Jehovah's Witnesses. They started a World War that killed millions in civilians and military personnel. Trying to compare the Confederate symbol to the Nazi symbol is hailarious.[/color]

[amibasuki]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i]
[B][color=crimson]lol. Please, spare me. That is a whole different thing. The Nazi's killed jews, gypsys, Jehovah's Witnesses. They started a World War that killed millions in civilians and military personnel. Trying to compare the Confederate symbol to the Nazi symbol is hailarious.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
[FONT=arial]meh, I wasn't trying to say that what the Southerners did was as bad as what the Nazis did. I was talking about how the swastika used to stand for something good, but was turned into something bad because of what they did. it's the same thing for the Confederate flag. before the whole Civil War started, the flag probably did stand for heritage and whatnot. but after the war, it picked up the negative meaning as well, and people started looking at it in a negative way rather than the positive one. my comparison is correct.[/FONT]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]No, it is not correct in my eyes. The reasons for which why both symbols have become 'evil' are radical, one is clearly more defined and "horrible" than the other. You have to take it as a whole- the swastika became a nightmare for people, sometimes literally. Just takeing the core symbols without looking at how they transformed through events in history seems wrong.

I am not really pro+confederate south, but that is still a stretch. Surely there are other symbols you could compare it to. Something more reasonable than the swastika. Your example with 'gay', however, was good. I am not trying to attack you personally, or anything- sorry if I come off as such. =)[/color]

[amibasuki]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i]
[B][color=crimson]No, it is not correct in my eyes. The reasons for which why both symbols have become 'evil' are radical, one is clearly more defined and "horrible" than the other. You have to take it as a whole- the swastika became a nightmare for people, sometimes literally. Just takeing the core symbols without looking at how they transformed through events in history seems wrong.

I am not really pro+confederate south, but that is still a stretch. Surely there are other symbols you could compare it to. Something more reasonable than the swastika. Your example with 'gay', however, was good. I am not trying to attack you personally, or anything- sorry if I come off as such. =)[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
[FONT=arial]lol, I didn't figure that. just a lively debate going on is all.

the swastika and Confederate flag comparison is a stretch, I agree. like I said, I wasn't trying to make them seem equal in harshness by any means, lol. just naming examples of how something that started off with a good meaning can end up with a bad one. the swastika was just a magnified version of it 0_o'.[/FONT]

[DeathKnight]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by amibasuki [/i]
[B][FONT=arial]the swastika and Confederate flag comparison is a stretch, I agree. like I said, I wasn't trying to make them seem equal in harshness by any means, lol. just naming examples of how something that started off with a good meaning can end up with a bad one. the swastika was just a magnified version of it 0_o'.[/FONT] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Yea I guess so.

Plus, that was somewhat recent.. I would guess walking around in Europe with that on SHOULD piss some people off, heh.[/color]

[lea]

well, in relative, people somtimes wear the confederate flag as a sign of rebelion.
i am not to sure the show "dukes of hazard" meant the confederate flag painted on top of their car as a sign of racism

[Semjaza]

Why does the South need a flag to "represent" itself when the North doesn't have one? I feel like I'm in the 1800s... North and South lol.

Think what you want about the heritage stuff. I agree with it all. I personally have no problem with the flag itself... but this is one country, we have one flag. I think stuff like this just divides it all up needlessly (and no, state and city flags are another matter entirely).