Confederate Flag

[Queen Asuka]

[color=hotpink][size=1]Wow, this thread has actually pissed me off to an extent.

I'm from Georgia. The South. I've lived here all my life. I always hated the people who wore the Confederate flag as a symbol of "White Supremacy," but seriously, it is a part of HISTORY. You can't just go and erase that.

And all of these comments about the South, let me let you in on a bit of history:

The people who first populated the South were PRISONERS from England. They took people who couldn't pay their taxes in England, stuck them over here in the Southern states and said "Okay, see what you can do with this place."

Also, the North was Industrial whereas the South was agricultural. Because of that, the South needed slaves to work the fields. The North didn't need slaves. So why would they condone such a horrid thing? I bet if the North was as agricultural as the South, it would have been a completely different story.

I am not racist, and I am sorry that slavery happened. But you all just need to let it go. It happened over 200 years ago. And besides, the slaves were sold to the Americans by other Africans. It's not like we went over there and captured them ourselves.

I feel so angry sometimes because people try to make me feel as if I OWE someone something because I'm a white southerner. Look, the only people owning slaves were the RICH white southerners, not the poor ones. It was such a small majority.

Okay, I totally got off subject, but I was trying to make a point about the South. It was DIFFERENT from the North. The North is where all the power stood anyway. No wonder they had such a huge advantage over the South.

It's just a FLAG! And it's a WHOLE lot better looking than that bull**** flag that the state of Georgia is flying now.

*Sighs*[/color][/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B] The North was not opressing the South; the North was changing with the times, while the South was remaining stagnant. The majority of the South was dirt-poor, slaves excluded. Rather than modernize, the leaders in the south remained stubborn, and resorted to violence prematurely.

Slavery would not have ended in the south; it was too thoroughly entrenched in their economy.

The Confederation was doomed to start with, and there's nothing worh celebrating. As a Southerner, I couldn't think of a worse symbol to represent my region. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Well, if you want to view in a purely economic way the North was oppressing the South. The Southern economy was doing very well thanks to the high demand of both cotton and tobacco as well as other staple foods and commodities (such as hogs, chicken, ect?).

When the railroads were first being constructed in the North, companies received huge government subsidies, however, the same federal aide was not offered once companies were ready to build in the South. The United States government was providing quite a bit more aide to Northern industrial states than to Southern states that relied on an aggregate economy. Many people thought that this was a great injustice, especially since many of the founding fathers wanted our country to rely on agriculture as a means to sustain itself.

This rift grew so large that several states decided to secede from the Union, which they had every constitional right to do. Luckily our leaders realized how much this would affect the future of both areas and they were able to rebuild the Union. If anything, the confederate flag should be symbol for the group of people that followed the beliefs of our founding fathers and fought for the rights that they believed they were guaranteed under the constitution.

That being said, I think the overwhelming majority of people that sport the confederate flag tend to be racist rednecks, and entirely miss the ?Heritage not Hate? standpoint.[/color]

[quote] Why does the South need a flag to "represent" itself when the North doesn't have one? I feel like I'm in the 1800s... North and South lol.

Think what you want about the heritage stuff. I agree with it all. I personally have no problem with the flag itself... but this is one country, we have one flag. I think stuff like this just divides it all up needlessly (and no, state and city flags are another matter entirely).[/quote]

[color=indigo]Southerners are some of the most patriotic people in the country, and I doubt that too many of them want the confederate flag to symbolize the US or the South. I think that the issue is that people want it taken out of existing state flags because of what they think it stands for, which is ridiculous. [/color]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]
I am not racist, and I am sorry that slavery happened. But you all just need to let it go. It happened over 200 years ago. And besides, the slaves were sold to the Americans by other Africans. It's not like we went over there and captured them ourselves.

I feel so angry sometimes because people try to make me feel as if I OWE someone something because I'm a white southerner. Look, the only people owning slaves were the RICH white southerners, not the poor ones. It was such a small majority.
[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with that, which is why I only briefly touched on slavery in my opening argument. (Why should one person be held accountable for the actions of some dead person who they just happen to share DNA with? Also, being a white Southerner myself, I have been in the same situation before.)

Look, I hold two things very dearly: my country and my region (in that order). There are three things, however, that I dislike about my region off the top of my head: sucession, resistance to the Civil Right's movement, and the Clintons.

Two of the three are gone now, but people still parade that flag. I'm not saying that the Confederate Soldiers weren't brave or noble in their own right, but a flag represents political ideals, not the people who uphold them. And I strongly disagree with the ideals that the Confederacy stood for.

Also, like it or not, the Confederate flag [i]is[/i] used by hate groups and white supremists. They're not going to stop using it, either. You can try to explain "Heritage, not Hate", but face it: it doesn't really help. I say, let them keep it, and really prove how far the South as come.

I would like nothing more than a better symbol to display pride in my region's history/heritage. The Confederacy was a failure from the onset, as well as being a de-evolution in terms of government. (The entire country [b]knew[/b] a confederation of states wouldn't work; they'd already tried it.) It was a bad idea, period. This is [b]not[/b] the part of our history we should celebrate. The Civil War drove the South into a greater level of poverty than any that existed at the time.

Basicaly, the orchestrators of the rebellion really screwed the average southerner over, for the long haul. Incidentally, most of the politicians involved [i]were[/i] the plantation/slave owners. It wasn't them on the front lines of battle, either.

Several supporters of the Confederate flag say that one should "put the past behind us" and not be offended. This is, perhaps, the weakest argument for their cause, for a simple reason: it's a completely double-edged sword. Why can't Southerners put [b]this[/b] very ignoble part of the past behind them, and move on to a greater future?

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]
Also, like it or not, the Confederate flag [i]is[/i] used by hate groups and white supremists. They're not going to stop using it, either. You can try to explain "Heritage, not Hate", but face it: it doesn't really help. I say, let them keep it, and really prove how far the South as come.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Well they hide behind the cross as well, but you don't see political groups getting their panties all bunched up about it. Granted it isn't the same, but you seem more concerned about peopel that have a confederate flag bumper sticker or a T-shirt that depicts the flag. Eighty percent of those people are probably ignorant racist rednecks, the other twenty percent are civil war reenactors.

However, if you want states to rid their state flags of a confederate symbol, then I think you are being ridiculous. The confederate flag symbolizes the civil war (much like the swastika represents World War Two) whether it was intended to or not. Attempting to rid yourself of an icon that represents a part of history never accomplished anything...[/color]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]However, if you want states to rid their state flags of a confederate symbol, then I think you are being ridiculous. color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe that I've never said that.

However, when you say that "80% of those that wear it are racist rednecks", you illustrate my point perfectly. You've made a very vast generalization based soley on that flag, which is exactly what vexes me.

I know several people who wear/display it, and the vast majority of them are not racist, nor rednecks. Yet, they, and by assocation, myself and many other Southerners, are branded as such instantly. I feel they are doing a disservice to themselves and the very region they which to exhault by holding onto the flag.

The South is not a bunch of hicks, and it irritates me greatly when people assume so, or joke exclusivly at our expense. I believe that by keeping that flag, we invite more of the same.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]I believe that I've never said that.

However, when you say that "80% of those that wear it are racist rednecks", you illustrate my point perfectly. You've made a very vast generalization based soley on that flag, which is exactly what vexes me.

I know several people who wear/display it, and the vast majority of them are not racist, nor rednecks. Yet, they, and by assocation, myself and many other Southerners, are branded as such instantly. I feel they are doing a disservice to themselves and the very region they which to exhault by holding onto the flag.

The South is not a bunch of hicks, and it irritates me greatly when people assume so, or joke exclusivly at our expense. I believe that by keeping that flag, we invite more of the same. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Well, I am from the south, and that remark was made as joke...hence the civil war reenactors as the second part...but sometimes (usually) I am the only person that finds my jokes funny. Also, being from the south I can tell you that the majority of people that I know that wear the confederate flag are racist hillbillies...but that is just my experience from living in the south.

I agree that us southerners get a lot of grief about being degenerate rednecks, but I think it is more due to our accents than the display of the confederate flag. Unfortunatly groups of people get labeled, by living in the south that is a label that you'll have to deal with.[/color]

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]Also, being from the south I can tell you that the majority of people that I know that wear the confederate flag are racist hillbillies...but that is just my experience from living in the south.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
Those are the only people that wear it here also. They're not really mountain hillbillies but the kind of people that wear wranglers, cowboy boots, and other crap like that.

[Gohan Egret]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B]I'm not saying that the Confederate Soldiers weren't brave or noble in their own right, but a flag represents political ideals, not the people who uphold them.[/B][/QUOTE]

A flag represents nothing more than political ideals, not the people who died defending the flag? Not the people who cherish the freedoms represented by the flag? Not the people who have long saluted the flag because of what it means - a nation, united by the people, for the people, in the name of equality and rights?

And, yet, you want the [i]Confederate[/i] flag taken down?

But besides all of that, it seems you have a problem with the people using the flag rather than the flag itself. The flag is nothing more of a symbol. In this case, this flag has [i]evolved[/i] from rebellion and slavery, to represent a symbol of the South. It is no different than the peace symbol, which, was used in rebellion of war, yet, today, it simply means "Peace."

Things change. A flag is a thing. Therefore, it is subject to change.

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gohan Egret [/i]
[B]A flag represents nothing more than political ideals, not the people who died defending the flag? Not the people who cherish the freedoms represented by the flag? Not the people who have long saluted the flag because of what it means - a nation, united by the people, for the people, in the name of equality and rights?

And, yet, you want the [i]Confederate[/i] flag taken down?

But besides all of that, it seems you have a problem with the people using the flag rather than the flag itself. The flag is nothing more of a symbol. In this case, this flag has [i]evolved[/i] from rebellion and slavery, to represent a symbol of the South. It is no different than the peace symbol, which, was used in rebellion of war, yet, today, it simply means "Peace."

Things change. A flag is a thing. Therefore, it is subject to change. [/B][/QUOTE] What are you talking about? The Confederate flag doesn't symbolize freedom at all. The confederacy had nothing to do with freedom in the slightest. The freedom to keep on enslaving people? The freedom to keep the aristocratic system they had so they can keep the poor poor? To say it symbolizes freedom is laughable at best.

[Soliel]

[QUOTE] [I] Orininally posted by Harry[/I]
What are you talking about? The Confederate flag doesn't symbolize freedom at all. The confederacy had nothing to do with freedom in the slightest. The freedom to keep on enslaving people? The freedom to keep the aristocratic system they had so they can keep the poor poor? To say it symbolizes freedom is laughable at best. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=BLUE] I couldn't agree with you more. I've lived in the south my whole life and I'm just sick of seeing that tired old thing. I live mostly in the city, where I don't see it that much. But in the counrty, its everywhere. My own father and brother think its traditional, but my mother and I think its disgraceful. I mean, why would you want to remember a war your ancesters faught and lost, just because they thought it was right to enslave and morally degrade fellow human beings. I don't know about you other southerners, but I'm ashamed of that part of my haritage[/COLOR]

[Gohan Egret]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry[/i]
[B]What are you talking about? The Confederate flag doesn't symbolize freedom at all. The confederacy had nothing to do with freedom in the slightest. The freedom to keep on enslaving people? The freedom to keep the aristocratic system they had so they can keep the poor poor? To say it symbolizes freedom is laughable at best[/B][/QUOTE]

Where did I say that it represented freedom? In my first point, I was referring to the U.S. flag. Sorry, I forgot to add that in there. In my second point I was comparing how symbols change over time. The peace symbol was an anti-war symbol, but, more or less, it is seen as a simple "peace" symbol nowadays. The Confederate flag now represents a Southern spirit, whereas it used to represent slavery and racism.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gohan Egret [/i]
[B]. The Confederate flag now represents a Southern spirit, whereas it used to represent slavery and racism. [/B][/QUOTE]

You've actually got that backwards: the Confederate flag has been used by the Ku KLux Klan since its wretched conception 160 years ago. It used to be a symbol of Southern pride, but it was co-opted by hate groups shortly after Reconstruction.

Which is yet anotherr eason proud Southerners shouldn't use it; it was nothing to write home about in the first place, and now its conotations are downright profane.

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]It is not our fault that the KKK parades it around, lol. We do not ask them to- do we?

The KKK is in its cycle of rebirth anyway.

But those in the south will use it because they want to- honestly, most people around here could care less what anyone from other states in the south or in the north would think of the things they want to represent with pride, lol.[/color]

[Gohan Egret]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug[/i]
[B]the Confederate flag has been used by the Ku KLux Klan since its wretched conception 160 years ago.[/B][/QUOTE]

And like I said, you seem to have more of a problem with the groups waving the flag around, rather than the flag itself. Is the South massively encompassed by the KKK or any other negative, idiotic groups? No.

But, for argument's sake, why not take down the U.S. flag? Heck, after all, after what was done to Native Americans, the U.S. flag should not represent the nation. But, could it be possible, that the U.S. flag has, just as the Confederate flag, transcended its past mistakes and now represents something more positive? In my humble opinion, yes.

[Justin]

And you say that the Civil War is a part of Southern hstory that is not to be celebrated? That is opinion, my friend, not fact.

I say that it should. Even being the erroneous failure that it was, any man who wll fight for what he believes is worthy of honor.

What you seem to be asking is that we forget about the Civil War. And I'm saying that you're asking something that will not be granted. I won't forget it. Neither should anyone else. Just because you have no pride for your ancestors doesn't mean that others don't; and you don't have the right to ask us not to.

No, I do not agree with slavery. Yes, it is contradictory to ask for freedom for yourselves, but not grant it to others. But you have to remember these people were raised far differently that we all were. Yes, a confederation was a backwards step--but the USA tried that too, and look--we're still here. Who's to say it wouldn't have been the same for the CSA? Yes, the South lost. But it had much to be celebrated and remembered.

If you have a problem with tht flag, guess what. It's your problem. One you may choose to solve, or one you may let cause you unnecessary worry, and therefore shorten your life. It's still going to fly, and that's that.

-Justin

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B] Just because you have no pride for your ancestors doesn't mean that others don't; and you don't have the right to ask us not to.[/B][/QUOTE]

How dare you say that I have no pride in my ancestors; I never once said anything to that effect. In fact, I've stated several times that I do have pride in my heritage and my region; I believe that the Confederate Flag in an innappropriate symbol to represent them. That has been my standpoint from the beginning.

I did say that the Civil War was not something to be celebrated, but it is my opinion; I never presented it as anything else. My entire goal was to convince others to adopt my point of view. I have never tried to do anything else.

I have tried to present my views in a calm, professional matter, but I take great offense to your flippant dissmisal of them. If you do not think this matter is important, then please refrain from commenting.

I have said it before, and I will say it yet again: I am proud of my heritage, but I do not think the Confederacy was a part of the history to celebrate, and its battle-emblem is not a fitting symbol for the south.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Deathbug, I no longer understand the point you are trying to make. At first I thought that you were debating because you thought that the confederate flag was a symbol of oppression and slavery in the civil war and it shouldn?t be depicted in state flags any longer. But later you stated that having a depiction in a state flag didn?t bother you, but it did bother you that people are wearing or displaying the flag because the flag was corrupted by hate groups like the KKK, however, at the same time you said that you know people that wear the flag that aren?t stupid or racist. Now it seems that you have abandoned that perspective and you are once again saying that the confederacy was a stupid thing, but you said earlier that you understood that the confederacy wasn?t created because of slavery, so I don?t understand where you are coming from.

I am not posting this to attack you, but I am unsure of where you are coming from. I am not a fan of most people that wear or hang the confederate flag, mainly because 90% of the people that I have met that do so are racist, ignorant people. But I don?t think that the flag was intended for that, it seems that you are upset at an icon, not the people that have soiled its intended nature.[/color]

[Vash's girl]

I live in Louisiana (the boonies). I live in a fairly large city but all of my family live in the deep redneck south. I've seen the confedy flag plenty. The people here don't look at it and think of slavery or a failed war. They think of heritage, they think of their ancestors who were lost at war and respect them by waving the flag. I respect flag. My triple or double or whatever great grandparents died fighting for it, it was a cause. Somebody said that the people in the south were poor. They were not! Living in louisiana, i got a lot of history lessons. Cotton and tobacco were a pretty good way to make money. Where do you think everyone got clothes from? They provided the north with their crops too, they were making money like crazy. I've been to plantations, and those things weren't cheap! Slaves weren't either. Most good respectful white people took pretty good care of their slaves. But any way, I repect the confedy flag. It started as a good cause. Don't freak out of the slave issue cause slaves were working in the factories in the north. Northerners were selling slaves in the south. Whatever, everyone's guilty of some sort of crap. Oh, we're not all rednecks down here. Go Louisiana! I love it here!

[Mitch]

[size=1]History repeats itself.[/size]

[Dark Youkai]

It irks me to no end to sit and watch as people condemn the Confederate flag with out logical reason. Many say it should be done away with because it represents slavery. You forget: the Civil War wasn't about slavery. It doesn't make any sense to argue about a cover-up for the war in which it was used. As many have already mentioned, the South didn't solely have slaves. They just had more, and that's because they had huge plantations. I'm not defending slavery, I'm entirely against it, but slavery isn't the issue here.

Someone mentioned KKK and that the flag should be done away with because these evil-intentioned people used the flag to represent themselves, and therefore the flag is evil. As someone mentioned: if you're going to condemn the flag because it was used to represent something bad, should you not also condemn the US flag? Practically every symbol has been used for something less than it's intended purpose, but that doesn't make it evil all-together.

Personally, I live in Mississippi, and I wear the Confederate flag because I'm proud of the way the Confederates fought for a cause, whether or not they won. I think that if you want to condemn the flag because some people misuse it, than so be it. That's your problem, and it's not going to change anything .

-Ayami

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]
I am not posting this to attack you, but I am unsure of where you are coming from. I am not a fan of most people that wear or hang the confederate flag, mainly because 90% of the people that I have met that do so are racist, ignorant people. But I don?t think that the flag was intended for that, it seems that you are upset at an icon, not the people that have soiled its intended nature.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Where I am coming from:

I am proud of my region/heritage, but I think that the Confederate flag is one of the worst symbols for it that could have been choosen.

I never said that it should be removed from other state flag designs; I don't know where that issue came from.

I think the Confederate flag is a poor emblem for a variety of reasons. Admittedly, I've been bouncing around on which reasons I cite, because everyone I reply to responds to a different issue.

To simplify, there are [b]a lot[/b] of reasons I think the Confederacy was bad, and therefore the flag is bad by association.

Many people have said the flag looks cool; I agree, but fail to see what that has to do with anything...

What really bothers me about the whole thing: the flag has become a symbol of the region, and a large group of people wear it to display Southern pride; "heritage, not hate".

The reality is, the rest of the nation instantly thinks less of people who wear/display the flag, and we do ourselves a disservice by encouraging it.

I think the south can do better.

I am not an advocate for using political resources to take down the flag; that infringes free speech. My whole goal was to convince others that it is a bad idea, so they drop it because they agree with me.

I stand by my position, and, despuite all the heat this thread has generated, I would start it again.

[Gohan Egret]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug[/i]
[B]The reality is, the rest of the nation instantly thinks less of people who wear/display the flag, and we do ourselves a disservice by encouraging it.[/B][/QUOTE]

Can you provide a source that backs up this statement? I would like to see this supposed 100% finding that says that everyone thinks badly or poorly of someone with the Confederate flag. I, for one, do not. Why? I know the history. I know both sides. I respect their right to wear what they want as long as it does not harm me.

Also, trying to convince people with your opinion's is not helping your argument. It makes it seems as if you are on some divine quest to right the wrongs of the past or something...

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dark Youkai [/i]
[B]
Personally, I live in Mississippi, [/B][/QUOTE]
Well that explains it all right there. And if you dont' understand what I mean, Mississippi is one of the most racist places in the U.S.

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gohan Egret [/i]
[B]Also, trying to convince people with your opinion's is not helping your argument. It makes it seems as if you are on some divine quest to right the wrongs of the past or something... [/B][/QUOTE]

What is wrong with trying to convince people with my opinion? I could be truley arrogant and say that "The Confederate flag is bad" is a [i]fact[/i], but I am well aware that it is my opinion, and is a fact only to me and others who share that opinion. As I said, the goal is to convibce others that my opinion is right.

Your last statement makes no sense whatsoever, for two reasons:

*Sharing my opion on a message board is hardly a "divine quest"; it especially can't be when I haven't envoked religion at all. I merely presented my view on a subject that was of interest to me.

*The only only "wrongs of the past" that are any of my concern are any that I have personally participated in. Why should I feel any responsibility for what some dead guys who share some cromosomes with me did?

I do not appreciate personal insinuations. I have been trying very hard to keep this strictly an ideological debate, and would like it if other posters on the thread would maintain the same level of healthy debate, and not indulge in ad hominen.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]Well that explains it all right there. And if you dont' understand what I mean, Mississippi is one of the most racist places in the U.S. [/B][/QUOTE]

The above is a perfect example of the kind of personal attacks I'm talking about.

Harry, even though we are generally on the same side of the issue, it was entirely innappropriate and downright rude to make that statement. Even though I don't agree with what that OBer posted, to instantly assume that their viewpoint is inherantly flawed souly because of their region is wrong.

S/he had a right to his/her opinion, and should not have been personally attacked for stating his/her position.

At the same time, Harry instantly proved my point. "Confederate flag=Racism". He made an instantly degrading judegement on that person because they support that flag.

The reasoning behind that snap-judgement doesn't matter; it occured, and will continue to occur until we in the south disregard that flag.

[shahi]

every time I see the falg I get mad its not the fact that people still hang it up that bothers me its what Ive been told it represents I don't know much about the history of the flag all I know is In the books I've read It represents salvery(tried hard not to offend any one)