Has anybody ever wondered.....

[Charlie Levoy]

You know how when you turn on the news and one of the things you hear about is September 11, terrorists, or some war happening in the middle east and how we are trying to help stop the war or something like that.

So say like there's a war in Quatar (or one of those other places) between the people and terrorists. And then the president of the U.S says that we are going to help the the people who live in that country.

So we go over and we chase the terrorists out of the country, but didn't capture them. So then the president says that we are going to leave a few of our troops in the country to protect them in case the terrorists ever come back.

Well the people of that country are not to happy about that so they start complaining, telling us (the U.S)how much they hate us, and we're not listening.

Well eventually some other terrorists that came from the country we are protecting does something that we (the U.S) don't like. Then we react as if they had no reason and attack them back.

Well what alot of people don't seems to realise is that they really hate us and didn't want us their to begin with and what people really aren't asking is why.

Why do they hate us? What did we do wrong? Now that's the question I'm asking you. What do you think is the reason that they hate us?

I think they hate us because they think that alot of U.S people are stuck up, snobby, and are just plain rude and they are getting this idea from the president, the government, and alot of the people who travel around the world.

Here's what I think now I'm asking you. Why do you think they hate us so much?

[James]

[color=#707875]I'll tell you why the terrorists (specifically Middle Eastern terrorists) hate the United States.

1) Gulf War I. Even though the United States did a good thing by protecting Kuwait, people like Osama bin Laden hated the fact that the United States used Saudi Arabia (a holy land) as a staging ground. It was this event that primarily turned bin Laden's interest to the United States. And it was during Gulf War I that Al Qaeda began to attempt to attack US forces in the region.

2) Israel & Palestine. I would say that this isn't a primary concern for Al Qaeda in and of itself, however, America's support for Israel is something that Al Qaeda feeds upon. I think that most objective people can see that both Israel and Palestine are causing problems (Palestineans with the use of terrorism and, until recently, a complete rejection of Israel's right to exist; and Israel's frequent delivery of utter misery on the Palestinean people). I think that the US should be more even-handed in this situation...but that's unlikely at this point I think.

I would say that those two reasons are the primary ones.

Of course, there are multiple shades of grey to all of this. None of these things are any justification for September 11. But, I'm simply answering your question in as simple a way as possible. ^_^[/color]

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charlie Levoy [/i]
[B]

Here's what I think now I'm asking you. Why do you think they hate us so much? [/B][/QUOTE]
It's because their religion is so easily bastardized and instead of the people thinking of them as lunatics they think of them as champions of justice.

[James]

[color=#707875]Harry, [i]any[/i] religion is easily bastardized. I could sit here and reel off 100 examples of Christianity delivering more pain than promise. I could do the same for virtually any religion.

It's not a question of the religion itself being easy or not easy to twist. It's more a question of a handful of nutty/extremist people who use religion as a justification.[/color]

[CB Shin]

In my point of view, Religion for them is just an excuse to hide their own political agenda. Religion puts a curtain on things and gives a reason to them living, or to suicide themselves in the name of religion. The Americans(the goverment) have done a lot of things to start this. They used to hate us because we camped in their land, and now their even more upset because of this. This has been a long time coming and I'm upset at Bush for not taking this matter seriously. He spent billions of dollars in a war that should've never taken place and he promised us nuclear weapons of mass destruction. So....where are they? Just my thoughts,

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]Harry, [i]any[/i] religion is easily bastardized. I could sit here and reel off 100 examples of Christianity delivering more pain than promise. I could do the same for virtually any religion.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
That's true, but when it's coupled with people that are easily willing to believe them then it gets out of hand. Christianity has it's share of fanatics, but most people shrug them off as lunatics (ex: Jerry Fallwell). But with Islam, it has it's share of fanatics, bt people actually believe in them. I'm not saying it can only happen to Islam.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]That's true, but when it's coupled with people that are easily willing to believe them then it gets out of hand. Christianity has it's share of fanatics, but most people shrug them off as lunatics (ex: Jerry Fallwell). But with Islam, it has it's share of fanatics, bt people actually believe in them. I'm not saying it can only happen to Islam. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]Well, there are a few issues there.

Firstly, you might be surprised at just how many people see someone like Jerry Fallwell as a friendly, reasonable guy. ~_^

But moreover, there are different perspectives involved. It's possible that more people support Osama because there's a lack of education in some Middle Eastern countries. It's also possible that some of these countries have themselves seen significant oppression from foreign powers. And that might shape their views.

I'm not saying it's necessarily justified...but at the same time, it's important not to single out Islam as being a religion that is automatically prone to corruption.[/color]

[Charlie Levoy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]In my point of view, Religion for them is just an excuse to hide their own political agenda. Religion puts a curtain on things and gives a reason to them living, or to suicide themselves in the name of religion. The Americans(the goverment) have done a lot of things to start this. They used to hate us because we camped in their land, and now their even more upset because of this. This has been a long time coming and I'm upset at Bush for not taking this matter seriously. He spent billions of dollars in a war that should've never taken place and he promised us nuclear weapons of mass destruction. So....where are they? Just my thoughts, [/B][/QUOTE]

That's a good question Shin. So now not only have we angered them by remaining on their land, but we could have had a war that was never really needed.

[Burori]

[i] I find it said though that an entire country could hate the US to the extent of actually attacking it with planes.
I have no idea why they would hate the US to do this but I have an idea thanks to James. I truly not only feel sorry for the US but also the Afganastans (sorry for my spelling) What is this world coming to? [/i]

[James]

[color=#707875]Let me remind you that the former Iraqi Information Minister recently revealed that Iraq was smuggling banned weapon parts into the country for the two years leading up to the war.

This whole thing about "where are the weapons?" annoys me. It's ignorant. Nobody said we'd just find some giant missile in the desert with nuclear bits inside it. lol

[/color]

[Charlie Levoy]

No they didn't, but they still haven't them. As usual James you make another good point. Who said that they would find giant missiles and big bombs when they went to Iraqi? Last I knew nobody did.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charlie Levoy [/i]
[B]Who said that they would find giant missiles and big bombs when they went to Iraqi? Last I knew nobody did. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I was exaggerating to make a point. lol

What I meant is that people were expecting the coalition to find physical weaponry. However, most of those said weapons were already destroyed/dismantled prior to the war.

It's rumored that those weapons left behind where smuggled out of the country, but who knows.

The thing is, the weapons are a symptom. They are not a cause. We know, based on documents uncovered during the raids, that Saddam Hussein planned to destroy a [i]certain amount[/i] of weapons (as few as possible), to satisfy the weapons inspectors.

When the inspectors then give Iraq the all clear, it simply uses its existing programs to develop new weaponry to replace what was destroyed.

So unless you want endless weapons inspections (which would be highly impractical), you have little other choice but to remove Saddam Hussein from power. That is, unless you [i]want[/i] a murderous tyrant with a cache of biological, chemical and potentially nuclear weapons. [/color]

[Maully]

[color=green]I agree with James, any religion is very easily taken out of context or taken to far, to fanaticism, is that a word, I'm pretty sure. It is not just the religion that causes them to hate America, there are a multitude of reasons. I think one of the main ones is that those people all live under governments that do not allow free speech, and therrefore, the only information flow they get is government aprroved, and it is somewhat biased anti-American.

Another reason, in my opinion, is that people in the Middle East, many of them are poor, and they see images of the way Americans live, and they believe Americans to be selfish and more than that, wasteful. I think that we must just look like a nation of pigs.

There is also always the issue of oil resources, which America needs, needs in the way of America uses More natural resources than any other nation, and we are portrayed as wanting to take it from them as for whether we are trying to take it from them, well think about that yourselves, I'm sure that you can probably pick up on my opinion even though I may be trying to mask it...[/color]

[Charlie Levoy]

These are all really good points. Now here's another question. Do you think we can do something to keep terrorists attacks (like 9/11) from happening again? If so what?

[Baron Samedi]

If America would just let other people have weapons, rather than hoarding them all themselves, it might help. America is going around saying 'No you aren't allowed to have these' and taking their nuclear and other weapons. So, who has all the weapons? America! Surprise-Sur-bloody-prise. This seems to aggravate the other countries, for some unknown reason, so they get annoyed.

If people would just let others alone, then it would be better. IF everyone would forgo all other ties of allaince, and joined a treaty that stated that all countries would attack those who started a war (aside from mitigating circumstances) then there would be peace. Who is going to start a war if the whole world is going to come down around their ears? A treaty of fear, is better than no treaty at all, and it would work. But America feels like it needs to butt in everywhere. I don't think they would have attacked Irag, just to help the people. They thought he was making weapons, that is why they attacked. If they didn't act like such bigshots in the first place, it wouldn't have happened, well, he may have made weapons, but he probably wouldn't have launched them. The war between Russia and America was good. Because [i]both[/i] sides had strong weapons, which meant that they used other methods. So, if everyone had weapons, than no-one would use them, yes? If America is the only one with weapons, than others will feel threatened, and secretly manufacture them.

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]
[B]If America would just let other people have weapons, rather than hoarding them all themselves, it might help. America is going around saying 'No you aren't allowed to have these' and taking their nuclear and other weapons. So, who has all the weapons? America! Surprise-Sur-bloody-prise. This seems to aggravate the other countries, for some unknown reason, so they get annoyed.

If people would just let others alone, then it would be better. IF everyone would forgo all other ties of allaince, and joined a treaty that stated that all countries would attack those who started a war (aside from mitigating circumstances) then there would be peace. Who is going to start a war if the whole world is going to come down around their ears? A treaty of fear, is better than no treaty at all, and it would work. But America feels like it needs to butt in everywhere. I don't think they would have attacked Irag, just to help the people. They thought he was making weapons, that is why they attacked. If they didn't act like such bigshots in the first place, it wouldn't have happened, well, he may have made weapons, but he probably wouldn't have launched them. The war between Russia and America was good. Because [i]both[/i] sides had strong weapons, which meant that they used other methods. So, if everyone had weapons, than no-one would use them, yes? If America is the only one with weapons, than others will feel threatened, and secretly manufacture them. [/B][/QUOTE]
What are the chances of America blowing up a city randomly to provoke terror? None. Other countries have been known to support terrorism but you think it's alright for them to have these weapons. Wake up to reality and realize that people are willing to use them to further their goals. No stupid treaty would stop them.

[Drix D'Zanth]

I suppose I should jump in here and give my take on a few points.

Many religions can be streched to the point where fanatics kill people in "the name of god." I agree, not all worshipper of Islam should be condemned.

As for finding nuclear weapons? James put it best, i suppose. Iraq is a country about the size of California in sq. miles. Intelligence reveals that durty bombs could be manufactured in a plant about the size of a small house. Here's what I'll do, I'll go hide my nuclear weapons in a house somewhere in california, give you an army .. and you can find them. Oh yeah, I can move them to other countries, move them around my country, bury them and mark the spot with GPS. That's not fair? Tough.

Get the point? I wish the world would slow down for a second and be patient, I mean we found evidence of nuclear weapons in BACK YARDS. It's going to take a long time to find something that Hussein meant to keep secret for so long.

Personally, the risk of seeing a major US city go up in smoke one day is worth the destruction of a tyrannical power. Now that we've basically done that, I think we should turn the country over to the UN. I think we made the US safer today and for years to come through this action. It usually takes years after an event, for people to realize how important it was.

Should countries like North Korea, or Iraq be allowed to have weapons? Nope, they can't be trusted with them! Can we? Absolutely, unless in times of dire war or nuclear attack would we ever respond in such a manner. The US has never used it's military muscle as a bargaining tool, we don't force our opinions unless they directly relate to the security of our nation (Iraq).

Do I think there WERE nuclear weapons in Iraq? Yes, there was intelligence to prove that. Have I seen the intelligence myself? No. Would I want to? NO. Why? Because any studier of the history of intelligence knows that once we reveal the locations of "secret' establishments, the opposition capitalizes on the fact. It also puts the people who gathered intelligence in Iraq at risk.

I'll post more.. I have to get to work

[Adahn]

I think that if any country has 3,000 people murdered in a matter of hours, they're going to be rather perturbed. 3 days after 9/11, the house and senate voted (almost unanimously) to allow the United States to use any means necessary to deal with any group or country "he believed" that aided terrorists involved in the attack on the WTC. They specifically made it so that the president had complete judgement over who was involved. If the president believes Iraq had something to do with 9/11, then the president can act accordingly. Bush is doing what he was told by the people that represented almost everyone in the United States. What would you do if someone murdered a member of your family? If anything, we're being too nice. If someone killed someone in my family, I would probably tear them to shreds before coming back to my senses. Over 3,000 people MURDERED. Tell me the name of ONE country (non-communist/dictatorial) that would do less than their absolute best to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Charlie Levoy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]I think that if any country has 3,000 people murdered in a matter of hours, they're going to be rather perturbed. 3 days after 9/11, the house and senate voted (almost unanimously) to allow the United States to use any means necessary to deal with any group or country "he believed" that aided terrorists involved in the attack on the WTC. They specifically made it so that the president had complete judgement over who was involved. If the president believes Iraq had something to do with 9/11, then the president can act accordingly. Bush is doing what he was told by the people that represented almost everyone in the United States. What would you do if someone murdered a member of your family? If anything, we're being too nice. If someone killed someone in my family, I would probably tear them to shreds before coming back to my senses. Over 3,000 people MURDERED. Tell me the name of ONE country (non-communist/dictatorial) that would do less than their absolute best to make sure it doesn't happen again. [/B][/QUOTE]

By what? Murdering more people? Cause that's what we're doing.
Does any body agree with this method?

[CB Shin]

Both persons have strong points of view, although I would have to agree with Charlie Levoy. You can't solve military/terrorism acts by using more military acts. If we try solving the problem this way, some other terrorist group might start attacking the U.S. because they were pissed at America's decision to bomb the Iraq cities. Simply put, you can't end blood shed with more blood shed(not to sound like some penniless hippy, no offense).

[Charlie Levoy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CB Shin [/i]
[B]Both persons have strong points of view, although I would have to agree with Charlie Levoy. You can't solve military/terrorism acts by using more military acts. If we try solving the problem this way, some other terrorist group might start attacking the U.S. because they were pissed at America's decision to bomb the Iraq cities. Simply put, you can't end blood shed with more blood shed(not to sound like some penniless hippy, no offense). [/B][/QUOTE]

How ironic that it was because of that same reason that 9/11 happened.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]Many religions can be streched to the point where fanatics kill people in "the name of god."

Personally, the risk of seeing a major US city go up in smoke one day is worth the destruction of a tyrannical power. Now that we've basically done that, I think we should turn the country over to the UN. I think we made the US safer today and for years to come through this action. It usually takes years after an event, for people to realize how important it was.


Do I think there WERE nuclear weapons in Iraq? Yes, there was intelligence to prove that.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Alright. I agree with your first point. Almost any religion can be twisted in order to justify murder. For anyone who doesn't believe me, remember studying the Crusades? That was almost the reverse of our situation today: bloodthirsty Christians slaughtering countless Muslims "in the name of God."

I also agree with your second point, but for slightly different reasons. The leaders of our country were extremely rude to the other members of the UN in the period leading up to this war. Some even commented that the UN was becoming obsolete. Many believed that we could win the war (which we did) and stabilize Iraq (which we haven't) without its assistence.

Isn't it ironic that we're now crawling back to the UN, practically begging for help? And do we ever need it. When eight Iraqi policemen are accidentally killed by US troops, something's seriously wrong. Our army is simply spread too thin, and we can't afford to risk more American lives.

I never supported the war on Iraq, but now that we're in there, we need to get the job done, and get out as soon as possible--with the help of other countries. We may be the world's only "superpower," but we're far from infallible.

Your third point is debatable. I'm not a high-ranking government official, and I haven't seen the intelligence either. I thought I should point out, though, that intelligence is never completely certain. It's a composite of semi-reliable informats, rumors, and educated guesses, as well as hard evidence. So simply because intelligence may have seemed to indicate that nuclear weapons were made in Iraq, doesn't automatically mean that they were or are definitely there.

Finally, I'd like to thank you for giving a meaningful contribution to this debate/conversation. I may not agree with everything you've said, but it was definitely interesting to consider your point of view.

~Dagger~

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charlie Levoy [/i]
[B]By what? Murdering more people? Cause that's what we're doing. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes pretty much. It's easy for someone to support a cause when their family isn't dying.

[quote]Alright. I agree with your first point. Almost any religion can be twisted in order to justify murder. For anyone who doesn't believe me, remember studying the Crusades? That was almost the reverse of our situation today: bloodthirsty Christians slaughtering countless Muslims "in the name of God."
[/quote]
Don't you remember studying the Crusades? The christians got slaughtered.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]
Don't you remember studying the Crusades? The christians got slaughtered. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's true that they didn't end up taking over the Holy Land or anything. But if I recall correctly, many civilian Muslims died (whereas the Christians were mostly soldiers). *shrugs*.... I'm not a big history buff, so perhaps that wasn't the best example to bring up. Anyway, I was trying to reinforce the idea that religious violence isn't something unique to Islam.

~Dagger~

[shahi]

I belive its the govorment paying all this money for other countrys that might just want to be left alone yet they don't have the money they need to send every one in america to collage for free but I bet you all that money the repubilcan goverment is getting could go to collage funds. all these other problems in the world and all this money is olny going in to a war that could have been prevented