Is honor really valued in our society?

[Dagger]

Honor (n.):
1. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
2. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
3. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem.
4. Glory or recognition; distinction.

It seems as though American culture is founded not on basic integrity or authenticity, but instead on winning the rat race. People want to do well in school--without working hard, if possible--so that they can get into a good college, which will then help them get a good job, make lots of money, buy a BMW, and be . . . [i]happy[/i].

The idea that material possessions or fiscal assets can lead to personal happiness strikes me as rather juvenile, at best. At worst, it implies that our society is inherently greedy and selfish.

In my mind, the ideal honorable person would do the right thing whether or not it was not conducive to getting ahead. I realize that what exactly constitutes "the right thing" is open to interpretation, and I'll try to address that in a later post. But right now, I want to say that I believe that an honorable person is one who acts selflessly and sticks to his values, even when he doesn't have to.

A person who refrains from cheating on tests is not automatically honorable--he's just doing what he's supposed to. Is it honorable or even praiseworthy to simply perform one's duty?

Honor should be its own reward, shouldn't it? I've been reading Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf for my English class, and we talked about the understanding of honor in the Middle Ages versus what we think of as honor today. In the feudal era and earlier times, it was honorable to die for one's lord or country. It was honorable to die for the sake of revenge.

That certainly holds true today. Yet isn't it better to try to [i]live[/i] for your cause or your nation? Is that less honorable than dying a so-called glorious death? And what place does honor have in the life of the average person?

I look forward to your answers.

~Dagger~

[Maully]

[color=green]Dagger-

I agree with your assessment of American Standards. When America was founded, people gave up everything and came here penniless for the hope of a better life, and what has that life turned into? Trampling the penniless on your way to the top.

It would be too much of a blanket statement to say there is no or even little honor left here. I know some people who I think to be very honorable. They are people I choose to call my friends, because we have similar values, and their are probably more stringent than mine. These people are going to be teacher and family members, striving everyday of the rest of their lives for financial stability. In order to help further the human existence and give knowlege to the future generations, they will be underpaid and underappriciated.

Off the soapbox... there are honorable people, I think. They are just overshadowed in the social consciousness by the dishonorable ones. Lawyers have horrible reputations for being moneygrubbing and dishonest, but what about the ones who log hundreds of pro-bono hours per year?? The media focuses on the bad and dishonorable, therefore we don't see as much of the positive. I am rambling and I will shut up now (sorry)[/color]

[Adahn]

The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It's written by Steven Covey. The title does seem a little long-winded, but it's to the point. If you truly want to know more about this topic, get your hands on it. It is repetitive, but I think that's for reinforcement. I'd get more enjoyment out of it if I wasn't reading it for my Senior Civics class. I am absolutely serious, you will get more out of that book than you will ever get out of a discussion here. I've noticed that Drix has been using a lot of its principles in his discussion, and he's become, for lack of a better word, effective :).

[Justin]

I agree with your perception of honor, Dagger. And I, to some degree, agree with your assesment of America today.

Honor, to me, is being dedicated to what you believe--which first recquires a belief, being kind, seeking wisdom, being quick to help, and being slow to anger.

-Justin

[Snake Pliskin]

I think that honor is still around, just not as appearent as it was in medieval europe. I think that is is still valued though(even though it should be). Anyways thats what I believe.

[Artemis]

I think that honor and integrity aren't valued as high as they should be, especially in popular culture. I mean, look at "Survivor" and all the other "reality" TV shows..."Let's see, who's the least useful to us? Let's get rid of them!" and then there's all the completely stupid, immoral situations people put themselves into on "The Bachelor" shows. It's like people don't have enough self-respect to be decent. What scares me is the amount of people who actually WATCH crap like that!! Our TV shows and movies reflect the values we hold. From the the values I've seen, I don't have a very positive outlook on our society.
As to materialism and greed, I think it came as a manipulation of the American Dream: we keep trying so hard to be get further and further. Each generation wants to provide for their own children what they missed out on. Instead of focusing on the good ole home values, we've gotten pulled into a downward spiral of replacing quality family time and integrity with material goods.
As pessimistic as I am, I do believe that there are honorable people out there. Like Molleta, I believe the media's just making things worse (we'll save that for another thread...) I think the dishonorable people often simply overshadow the honorable people. The honorable people don't get the recognition they deserve and are often ridiculed instead.
That's enough from me...
~artie out

[Baron Samedi]

Of course honour is not a big thing today. We don't need honour as such, people these days can do without honour. Maybe they view it as a debilitating thing in the rush to get ahead. But does it matter? It has happened and that is it. When everything is costing so much, you need money. Poeple like to be comfortable, so they need [i]more[/i] money. But it isn't enough. they [i]need more money[/i]. It becomes a way of keeping points eventually. I have a bigger/better car/garage/house/ego etc.

You can be naive and say that it is good to die for your cause, but that is stupid. (Don't worry, I'm not calling you naive here)

In the life of the average person, providing I am basically average, it does not hold much ground. I have morals, but I also want to get ahead in life. Personally, if you have good morals and act on them, then that is enough. People will never ever do what is completely right. Not all people anyway. Just because it is right and good to be honourable, doesn't mean that they all will. Sadly.

[DeathBug]

Well, don't you all hold negative veiws of today's world?

Who says the "rat race" can't be honorable? We all know the guy who's stuck in a job he hates, but keeps going so he has enough money to provide for his family.

Isn't that honorable, to put your dreams on hold so your family can have a more comfortable life?

Besides, you're mixing up "Honor" and integrity. Integrity is what really counts.

[Guest Delaz]

NO there is no honour these days, and that is onne thing i would like to change. i have my honour and i do my best to live by bushido like a good man should.

[James]

[color=#707875]So you're some guy in Texas who lives by Bushido? ...Do you also wear a kimono? o_O;;

I agree with DeathBug to a certain extent. You can find honorable people almost anywhere. You can find honorable people in business, in public service...anywhere.

I'm not sure that honor itself is devalued by the average person...but maybe the mass-media itself devalues honor. I don't know. I know that I've met a lot of people who aren't honorable -- and the contrast is great. But luckily, I've also had the opportunity to work with and be friends with people who are very honorable. So from my personal experience, I value honor, regardless of whether the world itself is going down the toilet or not.

Hm...that seemed rather rambly. Oh well.[/color]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]I don?t understand what money has to do with honor. Who is to say that a man that makes millions of dollars a year isn?t an honorable person? Sure he may have a BMW and swanky clothes, but he also may employ hundreds of people, be incredibly generous with bonuses and benefits, and organize several charity events. I find that the wealthy people I know are the most honorable, I don?t think that living comfortably has anything to do with giving back to the community.

I do think that honor, or at least the concept we view as honor, has changed quite a bit since the dark ages. Although we don?t slay dragons to protect fair maidens and longer, honor can still be found in the details. You can find it in the mother who watches other families? young children while their parents go to work. It is evident in people that work at soup kitchens during their lunch hour. Honor is even in the man that held the door open for you at the grocery store when your arms were filled with bags. In the end all of the definitions for honor boil down to having respect for your fellow man.[/color]

[Maully]

[color=green]I had also noticed that the conversation had turned to money, which I think I may have inadvertently started *sorry*, but the two should not go hand in hand. I meant that society doesn't hold some honorable positions, such as teachers, at the stature I feel they should. It was stereotyping for my to say that everyone is trampling people on the way to the top, but... I don't know how to finish conveying this thought. I will freely admit, not all rich people got that way without honor, or they don't have any now. Bill Gates just gave the largest medical research donation EVER for Malaria research in Africa, and just look at all the charity work of Ted Turner, and the fact that he challenges others to do so. In essence, honor is not dead, it is just not the held norm in the mind set of society.[/color]

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Want an example of no integrity? BTW I do agree with Dagger here.

You can tell your country has no honor when someone gets obese off of fast food, which is known by the common public as common sense that it is fattning and unhealthy, and try to sue the company.

You know why Malpracitce Insurance for doctors has jacked up? Because so many people try to get money without trying. They sue a doctor just because they want money, and have no shame in lying under oath.

Same thing with Gambling. People don't feel guilty cheating their way through life. Sure, you can bet 20$ on a football game to make it more interesting. But sit at a slot machine for hours with thousands of dollars and just continue to put one coin after another in. That's a completely different level.

The reason why the thread has switched over to the conversation of money is because that is the no. 1 thing why people have no honor. No Integrity. So if we are talking about no honor, the number 1 cause for it is bound to show up.

[Zen]

Honor is a lost thing. Like a lost language, very few practice it now a days. I covered this subject a while back in my martial arts thread, discussing how many people fight to win no matter how dirty. By dirty, i don't mean kicking in the groin, i mean stabbing an unarmed man with a knife or taking out a 9mm and shootin a person who wants to fight you with their fists. Honor is something people no longer use. They just deny that they have no honor like its a game or an object. It should be with held, or people will look down on you, even if they too do not have honor themselves.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][color=indigo]I don?t understand what money has to do with honor. Who is to say that a man that makes millions of dollars a year isn?t an honorable person? Sure he may have a BMW and swanky clothes, but he also may employ hundreds of people, be incredibly generous with bonuses and benefits, and organize several charity events. I find that the wealthy people I know are the most honorable, I don?t think that living comfortably has anything to do with giving back to the community.

I do think that honor, or at least the concept we view as honor, has changed quite a bit since the dark ages. Although we don?t slay dragons to protect fair maidens and longer, honor can still be found in the details. You can find it in the mother who watches other families? young children while their parents go to work. It is evident in people that work at soup kitchens during their lunch hour. Honor is even in the man that held the door open for you at the grocery store when your arms were filled with bags. In the end all of the definitions for honor boil down to having respect for your fellow man.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with what you're saying. People can pursue the careers that they love, and end up acquiring a lot of money in the process. Others simply want to make a decent living, and though their occupations may not be ideal, they're happy simply knowing that they're doing their best. However, I think it's unfortunate that some people are so driven to be number one that they pay no heed to the welfare of others. Like Daigo, I've met a lot of people who would cheat, lie, and bend over backwards in order to win--not necessarily in a fight, but rather in whatever area of life strikes them as being most important

At the same time, I've also met people who've astounded me with their honesty and reliability. Our culture doesn't really do much to encourage truthfulness or integrity. Nevertheless, these qualities are there to be found, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

~Dagger~

[Guest BoneBladed Falx]

[QUOTE]Honor should be its own reward, shouldn't it? I've been reading Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf for my English class, and we talked about the understanding of honor in the Middle Ages versus what we think of as honor today. In the feudal era and earlier times, it was honorable to die for one's lord or country. It was honorable to die for the sake of revenge.[/QUOTE]

Beowulf is an interesting example, since it is a transition in a manner of speaking, from pagan to christian values in anglo-saxon society (christian values were difficult to accept). Much of this "death before dishonor" mentality has roots in pagan values of courage, loyalty and overall strength. These views are in part incited by the anglo-saxon view of pre-determination called fate. This moral system basically encourged the thought that it is not worth hiding from something that is [I]Destined[/I] to occur. You can not escape fate, therefore you should not cower before it -- but accept it. This also states you can not change the future based on your actions

Homer's epics, [U]The Iliad and The Odyssey[/U] , also bear similar conotations.

Arthurian Legend also bears a somewhat anglo-saxon feel to it, but these are largly romantic in (i.e. Roman and its lingual descendants) orgin. They were written in their current form after the norman conquests. (buh-bye anglo-saxon poetry...)

As for modern concepts of honor, I find few public ones. But I think the negative seems to be the focus of the contemporary era. Are all buisnesses out to be greedy or harm their workers? No, but we see fiascos such as Enron, and we shake our heads. There is so much scandal in the world, it's sometimes hard to see beyond it. This negativity is noxious; it's poisonous-- it spreads and it seems that the whole truth is obscured.

We fail to see the good people; the teachers, the charitible, and many others. Sure they don't show up on primetime news, but they are out there. The wealthy on down contribute at some level. Honor is about willing sacrifice for the good others. Honor is about utiliziing the skills we have and being the best person one can be. This rarely entails attention. Honor is also an ideal, it can be intangible.

On a final note, the willingness to sacrifice one's self for common good is the halmark of humanity, not naivity. But this like all [I]Ideals[/I] can be perverted...

[Maully]

[color=green] I am on my way to work right now, so I don't have time to say much. I'll edit it tomorrow, though, I promise, it's not spam. I was never required to read Beowolf, so I know little about it except that is is famously hard to read. I do, however, enjoy Homers works... to be expanded later...

I really like this thread. I think it makes people take a second to try and look past the negativity in society and try to see honor and nobility out there, like the lady in front of me at the grocerie store today, the cashier gave her a ten instead of a five in her change and she gave it back...It made me smile. The little things can help restore one's faith. Unlike the guy who tried to rip me off for $10 a couple of weeks ago saying he gave me a $20 and he gave me a $10. Luckily I don't put $ in the drawer until after i give the change...some people[/color]

[Avaris]

These days it more like honour isn't... honoured.

How can we value the "principled uprightness and personal integrity of character" when we thrive on the immodest and unprincipled world of the celebrity?

Personal honour in family and friendship groups is valued a lot more than principles and honour in wide-spread society.

[Santogi Anatoga]

Honor to me is somewhat lost.This is part of the reason I came up with the philosophy that "people suck" and thats all there is to it.Now,I'm not sayin that all people suck,but some do.

"Bronze is more precious than gold,for bronze brings forth life and honor.So make my enemy a golden spear and sword blade and me bronze."Theseis,The King Must Die
(Just thought I'd throw that in there.)