Japan

[SadClown]

I'd like to point out then when your born, you don't use a book to learn how to speak. Nor do you use a book to learn how to eat or run or anything else. No, you learn by doing it. Same thing goes here. If your acctually studying japanese, you'll understand what I mean.

And just to correct myself and genkai, its HARAJUKU.

[Baron Samedi]

Yeh, but you don't have to be able to talk when you are a baby. If you just went to Japan, considering you aren't going to have months there, and you can't sit and cry to get food, how are you supposed to learn the language. You seem to be saying to go there withput knowing any of their language, and expecting to get by. I could agree with that, but you are saying that Japanese is easy to learn. I am saying that there are people there who speak English.

You need to study some Japanese before you go. I think you could get by without it, as many speak English (on varying degrees of proficiency), but there is no way you'll learn the language without studying it. If you want to, I would recommend learning some basic things... or you could invest in a Japanese/English dictionary. Worked for my dad in Russia.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SadClown [/i]
[B]I'd like to point out then when your born, you don't use a book to learn how to speak. Nor do you use a book to learn how to eat or run or anything else. No, you learn by doing it. Same thing goes here. [/B][/QUOTE]

The same thing does not go here actually.

The speech portion of a child's brain is very, very different than that of an adult's. Children are made so that they can pick up a language without any prior knowledge.

Now, this same thing can happen with adults - I've heard of camps where people go in knowing nothing but their native language. And then, while at the camp, nobody is allowed to speak in any language except the one designated. Within a few weeks they pick it up.

But that is significantly different than Japan. I've been to Japan for two weeks and let me tell you, I did not make any significant advances. Yeah, I picked up a few words. But that's about it.

Why? Because if you're not Japanese, people speak English to you. Even if you respond in Japanese, they keep talking to you in English. The only time they'll use any Japanese is if their English fails them... it's like a last resort.

Now, there are people who know very little English. In such a case, maybe you'll get to work on your Japanese a bit here. But otherwise I don't feel like a few weeks in Japan is going to bring you from nothing to fluency. I've known people who have lived in Japan longer than I've been studying it and I still know more than they do. Honestly. Just being there doesn't raise your fluency.

[SadClown]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]
But that is significantly different than Japan. I've been to Japan for two weeks and let me tell you, I did not make any significant advances. Yeah, I picked up a few words. But that's about it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Thats funny. I know a lot of people who have gone there as exchange students and they said they learned more Japanese than they had in all their years of studying it. A funny thing indeed.

[lea]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SadClown [/i]
[B]Thats funny. I know a lot of people who have gone there as exchange students and they said they learned more Japanese than they had in all their years of studying it. A funny thing indeed. [/B][/QUOTE]
lol, thats because it was [I]two weeks[/I], not a school year....

[Ares]

Anyway, babies do indeed learn differently than adults. It is diificult to go to Japan for a year and learn the language by just talking. If I come up to you and say moshimoshi seihaku baka, and you are from America nad know no Japanese you aren't gonna know what I said, and how are you supposed to start learning? You should actually get a basic knowledge for basic words first. But the best place to go and learn in my opinion is Hokkaido.

[SadClown]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ares [/i]
[B]If I come up to you and say moshimoshi seihaku baka, and you are from America nad know no Japanese you aren't gonna know what I said, and how are you supposed to start learning? [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm glad that you realize that but your still not understanding what I'm saying. Of course you aren't going to become fluent in Japanese the second u step foot in the country. But through interaction with the people you will. Watch the movie shogun. The charector Pilot learns speaking the language the same way.

Wrist cutter, if you know people who have lived in Japan and dont know as much as you do, then don't be offended when I say that they either aren't too intellegent or lived on an American military base. Nor do I understand how you could say "Just being there doesn't raise your fluency," because from my experience, it's the exact opposite. Going to the country is an important part of learning any language. There is no way you can become fluent in a language simply by studying books.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SadClown [/i]
[B]Wrist cutter, if you know people who have lived in Japan and dont know as much as you do, then don't be offended when I say that they either aren't too intellegent or lived on an American military base.[/B][/QUOTE]

The point was that it is just so easy to get by in Japan on English. You need very minimal Japanese skills to get by - and like I said, they have lived there for many years. It's not that they're dumb, it's just that they don't try to learn. Even being there, day in, day out, they don't pick it up, because they don't need to. There's enough English to get by on.

"Going to the country is an important part of learning any language. There is no way you can become fluent in a language simply by studying books. "

I agree.

I think it's only a rare case that someone becomes fluent without going to the country. It's pretty necessary for fluency.

It takes more than just studying books. You can't just read a few a chapters in some "learn japanese" book and think you're able to say everything. It takes practice - and even without going to the country, you can master these books. You can go a long way with books alone, I certainly know I have.

But again, without going to the country for an extended period I don't think I'll ever reach fluency. I can say a lot right now, but there's still a long ways to go.

Unless you're really dedicated to the language and have people who are willing to help and teach you on an almost daily basis, I honestly don't think you can just go to Japan with no prior knowledge of the language and just expect to "pick it up". I think a good foundation of the language first would make the experience much easier and faster.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]I honestly don't think you can just go to Japan with no prior knowledge of the language and just expect to "pick it up". I think a good foundation of the language first would make the experience much easier and faster. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I think this is absolutely true. These people who buy some tapes or visit a couple of websites really aren't going to learn Japanese.

With Indonesian, there were some classes during the three and a half years that I studied, where we had to speak Indonesian for pretty much the entire class. And even then...the level of effort that you need increases dramatically. We were going to travel to Indonesia on a school trip, but we canceled due to the riots in Jakarta. I wish I'd gone, because I think it would have really helped me.

Fluency is near impossible to achieve if you don't frequently immerse yourself in the language -- you need to really rely on it to get by, in order to pick it up most quickly. That's been my experience anyway. Right now, I can't remember 50% of what I learned...even though I revised again and again. This is because I've simply had no need to use the language in my daily life. If you don't use it for a few years...you'll forget. You have to keep using it all the time.[/color]

[SadClown]

^^ Thank you. I'm gad that we all can at least agree on something.

[Baron Samedi]

I agree with your points. The whole argument was that it would be unwise to go there without knowing any Japanese. Because English and Japanese are incompatible, you need to know Japanese words. Eh. That is all. If you go there not knowing any Japanese, it is unlikely you'll learn very much of it. Even James said that he learnt the language first, before expecting to be able to go there and use it. You can not expect to got there without any Japanese grounding.

[SadClown]

I'm pretty sure I said the best way to learn the language would be to go there. People seem to assume that I meant just go there blindly. However, I think it still can happen.