eleanor Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [size=1][i]Oct. 6 issue No subject can't be helped with a cheat sheet, even school prayer. That's why, after the Texas Senate passed a bill giving students a full minute of prayer or silent time, Deborah Knapp published some help for the school's shortest subject. Filled with Bible verses and blank lines, Knapp's "My Sixty Seconds" takes its readers through 180 school days -one minute at a time. Day 1 starts with Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning...") and then gives this prayer jump-start: "Dear God, Thank you for new beginnings! Thank you for this new school year, my family, my teachers and my friends! Most of all thank you for this time I have with you! Today, Lord, please bless...?Four blank lines follow. (The book advises students to "Pray in your head," but not to do anything "With the book that makes you feel uncomfortable.") Each page closes with "In Jesus' name I pray, Amen." "My daughter was so worried," Knapp says. "She didn't know how she was going to be able to pray for a whole minute." If necessity was the mother of Knapp's invention (it's selling steadily in Christian bookstores and to church groups), she credits Texas lawmakers for creating the need for her book. She offers a "special thanks" to the 78th Texas State Legislature on the book's dedication page and prints an excerpt of the law in the back. -Geoffrey Gagnon [/i] [url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/972470.asp?cp1=1[/url] [from Newsweek] I don't have time to comment right now, but I posted the article. EDIT: My computer is screwed up. I sometimes makes English characters into strange Korean symbols, and I don't know how to fix it.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genkai Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I'm okay with it as long as the students don't HAVE to do it. Or use that book. If they wanna pray to whoever or whatever, they can have thos eminutes, or if they don't, they can doodle or something. They shouldn't have to use that strictly Christian book, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash's girl Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 that's awesome! It's great that we're getting more religious freedom in school. I just hope the kids who do this won't be picked on or anything. It could start some controversy. Well, we'll see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig8429 Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Genkai [/i] [B]I'm okay with it as long as the students don't HAVE to do it. Or use that book. If they wanna pray to whoever or whatever, they can have thos eminutes, or if they don't, they can doodle or something. They shouldn't have to use that strictly Christian book, though. [/B][/QUOTE] I dought it will last, the big issue is athiest people. they will argue the point and in the end you won't see them reading from the bible. but personally I think cool if you want to pray do it but don't force anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [size=1] And this is a big deal why? I feel that anything such as God is a personal matter--you should not be forced to do it. And obviously, this is not doing any such thing as that. And isn't passing any bill like this deemed unconstitutional? State and religion shouldn't have any place with each other, nor school and religion. It's right in the constitution as far as I am conerned. So I hope this bill being passed gets what it deserves--that being that it gets revoked and taken away. Because as I see it it is unconstitutional. Ah well. There shouldn't be some law that tells you as a person what you can do as a person--that goes into the very roots of your beliefs and what you believe, and says you can do something. If you believe in something--such as God--then you will pray for him as you see fit. If you want to do it at school, do it. But only in your head. If it's something personal to you, then do it alone at home. Stuff like this--such as evolution and God being taught alongside one another--should not be issues in my opinion. Evolution is a scientific theory, therefore it belongs in school and science. God is not a scientific theory. They don't belong beside one another. You are learned of God, most people are, at an early age. Supposedly 79% of Americans are Christians, so that should tell you right there. I don't see religion as that big of an issue in its own. It is what it is--you either accept this, or you don't, and be close-minded. I accept religion for what it is, and by this have formed my own opinions. Never should anyone force you into something such as religion.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Asuka Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][size=1] And isn't passing any bill like this deemed unconstitutional? State and religion shouldn't have any place with each other, nor school and religion. It's right in the constitution as far as I am conerned. So I hope this bill being passed gets what it deserves--that being that it gets revoked and taken away. Because as I see it it is unconstitutional. Ah well. [/quote][/b] [color=hotpink]It would be unconstitutional if they called it a "moment of prayer" instead of a "moment of silence." But as long as the SCHOOL or TEACHERS are not praying, then it's constitutional. We talked about that SO MUCH in Government last year. Also, the creationism theory can't be taught in school anymore unless it is a private school, such as a church school. There are many court cases that lead to this development. Also, I don't think they are MAKING people read that book. It's against the law to do that. I think the point of the book is to give Christian students a chance to use their moment of silence wisely and to pray about what they feel like praying about. Yes, prayer may be a personal thing that some say should be kept at home, but if there is a moment of silence to "reflect upon the anticipated activities of the day," why not use it to pray if you're religious? Does it make you that uncomfortable, Mitch?[/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrist cutter Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maladjusted [/i] [B]My computer is screwed up. I sometimes makes English characters into strange Korean symbols, and I don't know how to fix it.[/B][/QUOTE] Change your encoding. For IE: View -> Encoding -> Western-European (Windows) For Netscape: View -> Character Coding -> Western (ISO-8859-1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I agree with Mitch. I don't see how this matters. I mean, if you want to do the prayer thing, then you go and buy the book and do prayers in class. If you don't you sit there and waste time. What is the problem? I personally reckon that religion should be kept out of school, but I don't think that 60 seconds of non-teaching is a [i]bad[/i] thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 No, Tori, actually teachers have right to pray, as well. The way I see, so long as it's private, there's no visable issue. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Asuka Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B]No, Tori, actually teachers have right to pray, as well. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=hotpink][size=1]Teachers can only pray if they cannot be seen by the students. If they want to bless their food at lunch, it cannot be in the cafeteria while kids are in there. If they want to pray during the moment of silence, they cannot do it in front of the classroom or in the classroom with students present. It's against the law and they can lose their job over it. If you'd like, I can quote some court cases for you.[/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 [color=indigo]I don't understand why prayer in school is still such a big deal. Students have seventeen hours a day outside of school in which they can pray constantly if they so desire. I f they need to bless their food, I am sure they can do so without having to lead the school in prayer...I don't think that students need a minute of silence, most of them are zoned out enough in class.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 [size=1] It matters to me because religion and public schools never really mixed well together. I really don't give a moment's thought when I see a student at my school praying at lunch. What I give a moment of thought to is when one is verbally harassed or given punishment when praying in school. Bluntly, I don't care until I see something result from religion in school, which is inevitable. It's probably not a big deal to most people, anyway. It was a tiny article in the corner of Newsweek magazine. I just wanted to generate some discussion.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 [color=#707875]I think that religion in school is probably a big issue for many people because of the principle, but also because of that whole "slippery slope" argument. I can definitely see why religion and state are seperated; the same is true here in Australia. It's actually a good thing for religion, too...because it encourages religious freedom, rather than a singular theocratic system. In any case, I think that a moment of silence is fine. If you want to pray, go ahead. If you want to draw in your book, go ahead. If you want to simply contemplate the events of your life...fine. Who cares, really? I don't see this as an issue. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathBug Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 I don't really care about the issue itself, but I'd like to give Maladjusted mad props for the thread title. That was just funny. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 It was a good thread title. Especially considering I love the movie [i]Gone in 60 Seconds[/i]. I keep hoping one day someone will ask me why I pray during the moment of reflection.(which is what it's called here) But I doubt anyone will. Most of the people in my first block class already know my convictions. Ah well...life goes on.. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Wouldn't it be obvious why you are praying though? I mean, Christians generally pray. So, you pray because you believe in God. Easy assumption. And the thread title really made me laugh. Nice idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i] [B][/b] [color=hotpink] Does it make you that uncomfortable, Mitch?[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE] [size=1] No, not at all. People should be able to do, personally, whatever they want when they want. It doesn't make me uncomfortable at all. I just don't see an issue; if students want to pray, they will do it during the time away from school.[/size] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B]No, Tori, actually teachers have right to pray, as well. The way I see, so long as it's private, there's no visable issue. -Justin [/B][/QUOTE] [size=1] This is the whole point of my earlier post. If you are christian, and you believe in what you believe, you will prayer wherever and whenever you want--you don't need some "moment of silence" to tell you you can do this. The same thing goes for teachers. This is why this shouldn't even be a big deal and isn't. You don't need a law to make it officially right to prayer at some certain point...you don't need that. It's called taking an initative and praying whenever you want, wherever. I personally don't see why you would need to pray at school, unless you are a very othodox Christian, and you put your beliefs of God above all else. School and religion have always been separated. If you want to pray and not feel viable to anything at school, then go to a private, catholic school instead of a public.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 You'd think that, Baron. But I know a lot of people who acknowledge God, and think they're Christians because they simply acknowledge Him. So, to them, casual prayer is kind of foreign. And Mitch, I can see where you're coming from. Total seperation of religion and state would kind of negate this whole moment of silence thing--which is obviously geared towards prayer. However, a general moment of silence is good enough that it really shouldn't offend anyone, but it at least curbs the tide of people pushing to have religion replaced in school. Now, on religion in school: Legally, it's wrong to biasedly teach one religious position. I do, however, think they should teach, at least, the major religions of the world. Morally, this nation seems to have been in a lot better shape when religion [i]was[/i] in school. However, that wouldn't be very fair, in a legal sense of the word. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][size=1]And isn't passing any bill like this deemed unconstitutional? State and religion shouldn't have any place with each other, nor school and religion. It's right in the constitution as far as I am conerned. So I hope this bill being passed gets what it deserves--that being that it gets revoked and taken away. Because as I see it it is unconstitutional. Ah well.[/B][/size][/QUOTE] Actually, it isn't. Contrary to common belief, the bill of rights really says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Nowhere in it does it say anything about separation of church and state (or school). [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][size=1]Evolution is a scientific theory, therefore it belongs in school and science. God is not a scientific theory. They don't belong beside one another. You are learned of God, most people are, at an early age. Supposedly 79% of Americans are Christians, so that should tell you right there.[/B][/size][/QUOTE] I was wondering about that 79% from another post you made, too. I don't know what source that came from, but I honestly don't believe that's true. Whether the pollsters just overgeneralized the category of "Christian," it wasn't accurate, or whatever. If that was the case, I, myself, believe that the country would be in much better condition than it is now (not to get a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but if you were actually a Chrisitan (and not just someone who claims it), then you would at least [i]try[/i] to keep from wrongdoing as much as possible). [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][size=1]I don't see religion as that big of an issue in its own. It is what it is--you either accept this, or you don't, and be close-minded. I accept religion for what it is, and by this have formed my own opinions. Never should anyone force you into something such as religion.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE] They aren't really being forced into anything. It's just a moment of silence that probably [i]is[/i] intended, directly or indirectly, for prayer, but you don't have to pray at all. Yes, they force you to be silent for a minute, but they also force you to go to school period. And the law probably wasn't made in bias to Christians, but to keep from taking freedom of religion out of schools completely; because that, as we know, has already started happening. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch[/i] [B][size=1]I personally don't see why you would need to pray at school, unless you are a very othodox Christian, and you put your beliefs of God above all else.[/B][/size][/QUOTE] Well, that's kinda the point of Christianity: putting God at the forefront of your life. Now, I don't think [i]any[/i] religion should be forced upon school, but it should not be abashed (abashed, abashed, abashed), either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ares Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Yeah, you should not be forced to pray, but you should be able to. I think it will turn into a big issue and who knows if it will last? I believe they'll take it out of public schools. I guess we'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 [quote][i]Originally posted by Cicuit/J[/i] I was wondering about that 79% from another post you made, too. I don't know what source that came from, but I honestly don't believe that's true. Whether the pollsters just overgeneralized the category of "Christian," it wasn't accurate, or whatever. If that was the case, I, myself, believe that the country would be in much better condition than it is now (not to get a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but if you were actually a Chrisitan (and not just someone who claims it), then you would at least try to keep from wrongdoing as much as possible).[/quote] You obviously place a lot of misdirected faith in people. Just because they are Christian does not make them good. And anyways, aren't most people good people? You only hear about the bad ones. My mum knew a lady who was a real *****. She was very nasty to people at work, a real nasty piece of work. Anyways, she goes to Church and feels that she is forgiven for being a *****. She comes back next week and is nasty all week. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 [size=1] According to the Bible, God will never stop forgiving you. If you truly were a devoted Christian, you would not look down on that lady as someone less worthy than yourself. [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 I don't. I don't even know her. But my point was, that being Christian does not make you good or nice. She was a hypocrite. Just because someone is Christian does not make them good. I'm not a devoted Christian. I'm not even an un-devoted Christian. I'm not Christian. o_0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 [b]All[/b] Christians are hypocritcal. Why? We're all still sinners, frankly. What's the difference between us and those who ar not Christians? We have accepted the blood of Christ, and are given God's grace. [i]By God's grace[/i] we are saved--not by our perfection. People aren't Christians because they pursue purity. People pursue purity [i]because[/i] they're Christians. Being orthodox has nothing to do with it. Anyone saved by the grace of God will know what they're supposed to do--"Let he that hath an ear..." All that is necessary is listening. Being a Christian is so simple. Oh, so incredibly simple. You don't have to get baptized to accept Jesus--you get baptized because you've already accepted Him. A church building has nothing to do with Christianity--it's just a stinkin' building! The Church exists within the hearts of the believers, the building is only where they go to gather for fellowship and worship. Ayiah yiah yiah yiah... -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlgaTheDwarf Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Well, personally I really don't see the big deal with this bill either as many other people have said before me. Why, well no one (at least not where I am live) would get in trouble if they prayed at school, as long as they keep it to themselves. If they were running up and down the halls speaking in tounges then maybe that would be a problem, but as for just praying to oneself that no one could stop me from doing that. We don't have thought police (yet) and I don't need an ordained minute to tell me to pray, it's just something I do and would if I went to public school. Anyway, good creative title! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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