God in 60 Seconds

[TheShinje]

[size=1] I don't see this as an issue either. If you don't believe in God, then don't pray, simple. but I sincerely hope that the right to Prayer will not be taken away from those who wish to do so.

I'll ask you this, why can't someone pray aloud? I don't see what's wrong with it. People should be allowed to practise their beliefs however they want, as long as it dosen't force others into their beleif. [/size]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Circuit/J [/i]
[B]
I was wondering about that 79% from another post you made, too. I don't know what source that came from, but I honestly don't believe that's true. Whether the pollsters just overgeneralized the category of "Christian," it wasn't accurate, or whatever. If that was the case, I, myself, believe that the country would be in much better condition than it is now (not to get a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but if you were actually a Chrisitan (and not just someone who claims it), then you would at least [i]try[/i] to keep from wrongdoing as much as possible).



They aren't really being forced into anything. It's just a moment of silence that probably [i]is[/i] intended, directly or indirectly, for prayer, but you don't have to pray at all. Yes, they force you to be silent for a minute, but they also force you to go to school period. And the law probably wasn't made in bias to Christians, but to keep from taking freedom of religion out of schools completely; because that, as we know, has already started happening.



Well, that's kinda the point of Christianity: putting God at the forefront of your life.

Now, I don't think [i]any[/i] religion should be forced upon school, but it should not be abashed (abashed, abashed, abashed), either. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] I like how you take quotes of mine that have no validity in the argument you are arguing, and babble on about them. Whatever.

If you need to understand that [i]I am telling the truth[/i], I'd bade you go to this following site: [url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm[/url]

There. I hope that finally shows you that I wasn't just digging something out of nowhere.

[quote]"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun in the Lee v. Weisman ruling, 1992.[/quote]

And here you are:

[quote]The framers of the U.S. Constitution were concerned that European history might repeat itself in the new world. They wanted to avoid the continual wars motivated by religious hatred that had decimated many countries within Europe. They decided that a church/state separation was their best assurance that the U.S. would remain relatively free of inter-religious strife.

In 1789, the first of ten amendments were written to the Federal Constitution; they have since been known as the Bill of Rights. The First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

This was ratified by the States in 1791.

The first phrase [b]"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."[/b] is called the establishment clause. It has been interpreted [i]by the courts as requiring a separation between church and state[/i]. That is, the government (and by extension public schools) may not:

[b]*promote one religion or faith group over any other
*promote a religiously based life over a secularly based life
*promote a secularly based life over a religiously based life. [/b]

Three tests have been developed to decide the constitutionality of laws that have a religious component:

[i][b]The Lemon test:[/b] This was defined in a Supreme Court ruling in 1971. 10 To be constitutional, a law must: have a secular purpose, and
be neutral towards religion - neither hindering nor advancing it, and
not result in excessive entanglements between the government and religion.

[b]The Endorsement Test:[/b] Justice O'Connor created this criteria: a law is unconstitutional if it favors one religion over another in a way that makes some people feel like outsiders and others feel like insiders.
[b]The Coercion Test:[/b] Justice Kennedy proposed this criteria: a law is constitutional even if it recognizes or accomodates a religion, as long as its demonstration of support does not appear to coerce individuals to support or participate in a religion.[/i] [/quote]

If you need where I got this information, since you seem to not believe I am actually going places for my information, you can go [url=http://www.religioustolerance.org/scs_intr.htm]here[/url].[/size]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B][b]All[/b]

Being a Christian is so simple. Oh, so incredibly simple. You don't have to get baptized to accept Jesus--you get baptized because you've already accepted Him. A church building has nothing to do with Christianity--it's just a stinkin' building! The Church exists within the hearts of the believers, the building is only where they go to gather for fellowship and worship.

Ayiah yiah yiah yiah...

-Justin [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] How can you accept something, as a baby of all things, when you are forced into it, and can't even have the mental power to understand acceptance? Exactly.

I was baptized when I was born as a follower of Christianity. I did not believe in Jesus since I was baptized. This is a bad assumption lol.

When I was young I didn't even "believe" that there was a God perhaps, or that Jesus was truth. I more or less saw it as a fantasy, which, if you look at it on one point, is what all this could be.

As for what you said about church, I quite believe that. Church for me has always been a waste of time. I totally hate singing. I totally loathe everything about church.

If I want to pray for God, then I shouldn't have to get together with other people to do it. Ah well.

I plan on reading the bible soon if that means anything to anyone. Who knows, things could change when I read it. I doubt that though. I'm sure it'll be a fun little story to read though.[/size]

[Jesus Chicken]

[color=blue]No one can stop someone from praying, unless they lock them in a room, and shoot them if they start to pray.
I would have to say its a pretty stupid idea. If someone feels they have to pray once every hour or something, they can go to the toilet to do it. Taking someone else's time so that they can do something for them is wasting someone's time.
I dunno, I guess religion pisses me off, mainly because people use it to justify ****. Personally I think this is just someone else using it as an excuse to hoarde it over other people. I mean, would there be any chance that nihilists could get sixty seconds out of school to burn a cross or something?[/color]

[Justin]

You shouldn't be baptized as an infant--bottom line. Baptism is a public announcement, of sorts. Publically saying "I've already accepted Jesus, of my own will."

No one is a Christian because their parents were.

As for the Church: You partially misunderstood me. I'm not saying we shouldn't gather together. It's required. "Do not forsake the gathering together of the assembly." Fellowship is a cornerstone of faith. God makes many references to this throughout the Bible, people just choose not to realize its importance.

I merely meant 'church' has nothing to do with any kind of building, lol.

And if the nihilists want to burn their cross, they're welcome to it, I say. The Cross itself is only a symbol, at best. Wearing one or having one in your home does not save you. Besides, the Bible says they're will be blasphemies in the world. So, no big deal to me, they're just burning perfectly good wood.

-Justin

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B][color=blue]
I dunno, I guess religion pisses me off, mainly because people use it to justify ****. Personally I think this is just someone else using it as an excuse to hoarde it over other people. I mean, would there be any chance that nihilists could get sixty seconds out of school to burn a cross or something?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] Mostly same here. But ah well. We're off topic as it is lol.

Yes, I want my sixty seconds to burn the cross!!111

But really, you make that point in a good reason lol. Wasting somone else's time to do someone else's personal proclivities and faiths isn't right. You do not need to pray at school--you can pray at home. Thus, it isn't a big deal.

This is basically what I have said to the beginning of this thread, and that is why no one else has really posted. It'd just be repeating things. But I guess some things have to be beaten into someone's head.[/size]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]You shouldn't be baptized as an infant--bottom line. Baptism is a public announcement, of sorts. Publically saying "I've already accepted Jesus, of my own will."

No one is a Christian because their parents were.

As for the Church: You partially misunderstood me. I'm not saying we shouldn't gather together. It's required. "Do not forsake the gathering together of the assembly." Fellowship is a cornerstone of faith. God makes many references to this throughout the Bible, people just choose not to realize its importance.

I merely meant 'church' has nothing to do with any kind of building, lol.

And if the nihilists want to burn their cross, they're welcome to it, I say. The Cross itself is only a symbol, at best. Wearing one or having one in your home does not save you. Besides, the Bible says they're will be blasphemies in the world. So, no big deal to me, they're just burning perfectly good wood.

-Justin [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] No one is a chirstian because their parents were? Obviously you don't see my point.

What if you hadn't known about Christianity as a religion, what if your parents had not first introduced you to it? What if instead, as you were born, you were gaven into a different religion. Wouldn't you still be worshipping that religion, or be tied into it in some way?

This is my point. Just look at other religions--most likely, the kids of families in these other religions are often in the same religion as their family.

They aren't given a choice. Rather, as they are born, they are forced into baptizim when they are young and unable to make decisions themselves. In this way people are coerced into religion when they don't have any way to push back.

I'm not a Christian in the definition, yet I was confirmed recently, I have gone through all the necessary steps to be "recognized" as a follower of God by my church, and therefore, in some ways, it could be said that I am a Christian. This is what I am saying. Being baptized, you are often young--and in this way, then, you don't even have a say, and nor have you accepted Jesus and God as really things. You've just been put in.

This isn't to say some people, while older, get baptized--but in this way they actually have the ability to want to join a religion.

As for what you said as to what I said...that is merely my opinion. I simply used yours to base mine.[/size]

[Justin]

Now, I understand your point. But i find it wrong, lol. Children probably have the best understanding of God out of all people. He simply IS. Childlike faith is powerful, much more powerful than anything I'll ever get on my own.

Children are indeed raised by their families to be Christian--this is fine, in my opinion. Why? The Bible says so, basically. "Raise a child up in the way he should go, and he will not turn from it when he becomes a man." Or something close to that.

The child will eventually reach a point where they can reason for themselves. When they get there, they'll have to decide for themselves what to do. They're upbringing will be their base, but believe me when I say that the things of this world can have a powerful pull on a young person. Even if they reach a point where they've chosen Christ already, as I said earlier, they'll still sin. I do so on a daily basis. Thankfully, I've been given grace, my sins have been covered by it. I'm moved to repentance because I love the Lord and know that when I sin, I've hurt Him.(From this point forward, I'll never forget what I've just said)

True followance of Jesus is not a religion. It's a relationship, a personal one. One where you commune with God daily. The only reason it's to be shared with those who do not have it is so that they, too, can have that grace--Jesus wants them, so He sends His servants to go get them. It should not be forced upon anyone, because it cannot be. It's a personal choice, and only the Holy Spirit can move you towards it.

-Justin

[Mitch]

[size=1] You basically just rehashed what I've said in the past two posts lol. I don't have much else to say. At least you get my point and can base your own opinionations on it. That, for me, is enough.

I don't want repentence for my sins. I don't see God as some personal, loving relationship. And yes, religion [i]is[/i] forced upon people, especially if the families of a child see it fit to teach their children what they've been taught. When I told my parents that I did not believe in God, they yelled at me, and said that they had "raised me wrong." So basically, they seem to think I am a bad person because I do not believe in God.

And that's not right to say. If you actually take a second to think, Justin, I'm just as good as you and you're just as good as me. Your ties with God mean nothing but an admittance that you believe in some creator, and that you believe that sinning is a bad thing which hurts this creator. You ask for absolution due to this, supposedly. Although I'm sure you don't live to die, most Christians do. They put their faith in God because they know--assume--that when they die they will be delivered to God himself, and live a happy and able "second life." This isn't the main arc that Christianity covers, more or less it is the "second coming of Christ," in my eyes. And for that, I could care less.

So basically I am left to say that yes, people are forced into religion, even in the most subtle ways. As I said, do you think you'd still have the same religion if you had been given a different one? I don't think so. All religions have some God which they cover, all of them have this same point.[/size]

[Justin]

I may not have a different religion at this point, no. But oh, so many more throughout the world convert to Christianity every day as a result of evangelism.

I also never said I was any better than you, lol. I clearly said that I'm a sinner, just like anyone else and so, am no better than anyone. In fact, I count myself lower than other people because I know God, and called of God, and filled with the Spirit, but I sin still.

You're no more of a bad person for not believing in God than any Christian is. We're all the same in God's eyes, He's already accepted us. We just have to accept Him.

Anyway, I think I'm probably done now. I just wanted to answer some of the things you said in your last post. :)

-Justin

[FallOut]

I'm surprised that they gave the kids 60 seconds to think for themselves! It's too bad some of them were worried that they wouldn't know what to do with those 60 seconds. Most kids are taught not to think. I can tell this by talking to my friends. If someone is not telling them what to do every second, they don't know what to do with themselves. I believe that God is in that 90 percent of the human brain that nobody thinks to use. I mean, how do you get in there anyways? I know. Does anyone else?

[AutoKill]

This hole thing is just another way to get people back in the churches so they can have more people put money in the collection tray.
?Freedom of speech is one thing, but lets not speak to freaken loud.? -AutoKill

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[B]This hole thing is just another way to get people back in the churches so they can have more people put money in the collection tray.
?Freedom of speech is one thing, but lets not speak to freaken loud.? -AutoKill [/B][/QUOTE]

If you are going to critisize an opinion, or make your own, try to be at least a bit less vague. What evidenced do you have to support your claim? Sure christians want non-christians to go to church. I don't want anyone missing out on God. Money has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.

The quote amuses me.. you must be so proud of yourself. I doubted it's origionality. But when I noticed you had spelled "let's" and "too" wrong, you conviced me.

[John]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1] I like how you take quotes of mine that have no validity in the argument you are arguing, and babble on about them. Whatever.[/B][/size][/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing anything in particular. I just pointed out my opinions, and said all that I thought I should. If you consider that babbling, then that's what you and pretty much everyone in this thread has been doing.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch[/i]
[B][size=1] If you need to understand that [i]I am telling the truth[/i], I'd bade you go to this following site: [url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm[/url]

There. I hope that finally shows you that I wasn't just digging something out of nowhere.

If you need where I got this information, since you seem to not believe I am actually going places for my information, you can go [url=http://www.religioustolerance.org/scs_intr.htm]here[/url].[/size][/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't think at all that you got that off the top of your head, I just thought it was incorrect. I was asking for the source to see where you got it from, not [i]if[/i] you got it from somewhere.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch[/i]
What if you hadn't known about Christianity as a religion, what if your parents had not first introduced you to it? What if instead, as you were born, you were gaven into a different religion. Wouldn't you still be worshipping that religion, or be tied into it in some way?

This is my point. Just look at other religions--most likely, the kids of families in these other religions are often in the same religion as their family.

They aren't given a choice. Rather, as they are born, they are forced into baptizim when they are young and unable to make decisions themselves. In this way people are coerced into religion when they don't have any way to push back.[/QUOTE]
God will always give you the choice somewhere in life to accept him at your will, whether you were "born into a religion" or not.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin[/i]
Now, I understand your point. But i find it wrong, lol. Children probably have the best understanding of God out of all people. He simply IS. Childlike faith is powerful, much more powerful than anything I'll ever get on my own.

Children are indeed raised by their families to be Christian--this is fine, in my opinion. Why? The Bible says so, basically. "Raise a child up in the way he should go, and he will not turn from it when he becomes a man." Or something close to that.[/QUOTE]
Also, The Bible says to "Come forth like a child," or thereabouts.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi[/i]
You obviously place a lot of misdirected faith in people. Just because they are Christian does not make them good. And anyways, aren't most people good people? You only hear about the bad ones. My mum knew a lady who was a real *****. She was very nasty to people at work, a real nasty piece of work. Anyways, she goes to Church and feels that she is forgiven for being a *****. She comes back next week and is nasty all week. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.[/QUOTE]
Of course you're not automatically good if you're a Christian. My point was that true Christians see more point in trying than most others. Yes, most people are good, but there are many bad ones at the same time. Christianity is more than just a belief system, it's actually a relationship with God, as put by Justin. If you claim that you're a Christian just because you follow all the rules, it doesn't make much difference.

[Baron Samedi]

My point was this: You said that you thoight it would be a better place if there were as many Christians as the survey claimed.

[quote][i]Originally posted by Circuit/J[/i]

If that was the case, I, myself, believe that the country would be in much better condition than it is now (not to get a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but if you were actually a Chrisitan (and not just someone who claims it), then you would at least try to keep from wrongdoing as much as possible).[/quote]

I know that you added the proviso that they were true Christians, but all I was saying is that all Christians are not necessarily good people. Sure, there are heaps of good ones, but there are also heaps of good non-christians. It depends on people, not their religion. If you are raised well, then you will likely be a good person. Does religion really figure in it?

Just because there were more Christians doesn't mean they would be better, necessarily. It could be, I was just pointing it out. But we are getting off topic- this is about whether the 60 seconds should be allowed or not.

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Circuit/J [/i]
[B]I'm not arguing anything in particular. I just pointed out my opinions, and said all that I thought I should. If you consider that babbling, then that's what you and pretty much everyone in this thread has been doing.[/b][/quote]

[size=1]Yes, I do suppose I was being rude, and I just didn't see you were basing things I said off as opinions. I've done the same thing to Justin heh. So I am sorry if this bothers you in fashions, or is rude; which, I'm sure, is what it is.[/size]


[quote][b]I didn't think at all that you got that off the top of your head, I just thought it was incorrect. I was asking for the source to see where you got it from, not [i]if[/i] you got it from somewhere.[/b][/quote]

[size=1]"I was asking for the source to see where you got it from, not if you got it from somwhere"? Aren't those one in the same? I'd say so.

Well, I gave you my proof, so now I hope you understand that I didn't just pull numbers from anywhere. I would hope you'd have enough understanding to see I wouldn't just pull numbers from nowhere...but whatever. [/size]


[b][quote]God will always give you the choice somewhere in life to accept him at your will, whether you were "born into a religion" or not.[/quote][/b]

[size=1]Obviously you don't see my point. I wasn't saying that I wasn't "born into religion," more or less I am saying that if you weren't born with religion in your family, and had never heard of religion in general, then you probably wouldn't being following your religion. It goes to show what religion is like. It's like a fad in my opinion, and I see that eventually it will no longer be ingrained in society. Eventually it'll just be like African Americans and Whites--Abolitionists and Religionists--and eventually it'll all mesh into one and fade away.

Can I ask you: if you were not born into your religion, and never had even heard of it, do you think you'd have this "personal relationship with God"? I don't think so, and this is my point: you're believing in something because you were fished into it and seen into it your whole life.[/size]


[quote][b]Also, The Bible says to "Come forth like a child," or thereabouts.[/b][/quote]

As I further made crystal clear, this wasn't even the point of me mentioning children. I was merely going along with what I replied to above: babies are baptized into religion, and Justin had said that when you are baptized "you are accepting you believe in God and Jesus;" I was pointing out that babies--nor a child--do not have the will and mental understandings to make these types of decisions.


[quote][b]Of course you're not automatically good if you're a Christian. My point was that true Christians see more point in trying than most others. Yes, most people are good, but there are many bad ones at the same time. Christianity is more than just a belief system, it's actually a relationship with God, as put by Justin. If you claim that you're a Christian just because you follow all the rules, it doesn't make much difference.[/b][/quote]

[size=1] See more point in trying at what more than others? Believing in God? No, that isn't true. Other people of other religions do just as much, and don't you think I've tried to see God? Of course. So this is a horrid assumption.[/size]

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1]"I was asking for the source to see where you got it from, not if you got it from somwhere"? Aren't those one in the same? I'd say so. [/size]

[/b][/QUOTE] [FONT=arial]There's a difference, Mitch. It's the equivalent of asking which cookbook someone got a recipe from. Not necessarily "You made that recipe up," but "Did you find this in [i]Betty Crocker[/i] or the back of a cereal box?" [/FONT]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][FONT=arial]There's a difference, Mitch. It's the equivalent of asking which cookbook someone got a recipe from. Not necessarily "You made that recipe up," but "Did you find this in [i]Betty Crocker[/i] or the back of a cereal box?" [/FONT] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] Ah, I see. But really, in essence, some recipe I found on the back of a cereal box could be shown to emanate from a [i]Betty Crocker[/i] recipe book. And, in this way, all the sources I'd give would be the same except for more vague.

And I'm not really one just to pull statistics out of nowhere and set them as right, am I? I hope people don't think I am that heartless.[/size]

[Baron Samedi]

Yeh Mitch. You thought he was asking [i]if[/i] you got it from somewhere, he was asking [i]where[/i] you got it from.

Difference.

***EDIT***

Sorry Mitch, you snuck in there ahead of me :D

***EDIT***

[Mitch]

[size=1] Well, by answering if, I showed where lol, as I logically showed in my responce to Sara's post.[/size]

[AutoKill]

[quote]Originally posted by
Drix D'Zanth,
The quote amuses me..[/quote]
I actually did that one while I was pondering over the subject topic. *Gives my self a cookie*
I made it "vague" to make people laugh. I would hope a good Christian church wouldn?t fall the to corruption of money and greed.... But when has that ever happened in history...:rotflmao:
The point of my post was to stress a point about how there is church and state. But the thing that angers me the most about Christians. Is their ever dying devotion to think that they have absolutely every thing right, and its their life work to save us non believers from going to hell.... Wait. you might say am being "vague" again. Only the Bible beating Christians do that.. Sorry

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[B]I actually did that one while I was pondering over the subject topic. *Gives my self a cookie*
[/B][/QUOTE]

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is why I'm sarcastic, so I can read this.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[B]I made it "vague" to make people laugh. I would hope a good Christian church wouldn?t fall the to corruption of money and greed.... But when has that ever happened in history...:rotflmao:
[/B][/QUOTE]

You don't seem to understand. Jesus says, if you kill, you aren't Christian, you are detatched from god through your sin. If a Church is corrupt, it is no longer a church....

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[B]
The point of my post was to stress a point about how there is church and state. But the thing that angers me the most about Christians. Is their ever dying devotion to think that they have absolutely every thing right, and its their life work to save us non believers from going to hell.... Wait. you might say am being "vague" again. Only the Bible beating Christians do that.. Sorry [/B][/QUOTE]

Your previous comment had pretty much nothing to do with "state"... right. So let me get this straight... You are pissed because someone doesn't want you to spend eternal torture and cares enough about you to offer salvation? That's pathetic. It's like telling a lifeguard to go screw himself AS you are drowning.....

We've got everything laid out before us in the Bible and Holy spirit. Of course we think we're right, God's word is unchanging... What guidelines do you live by? No.. you weren't vauge this time, just mislead.

[FallOut]

I haven't heard anything here remotely Christian as I see it. If the punishment for sin was death, and Christ is your savior, then why do you still have to die? You don't have salvation at all. To be saved from death, now that would be salvation from your sins.
And why do the so called Christians think they are going to have a new body in a spiritual place? Why the heck would they need a body? And if Christ fulfilled the Lords prayer, wouldn't it be "on Earth as it is in heaven? And why are people waiting around for the end of the world? When it says that "once at the end of the world Christ took away our sins?" And why is everyone looking for Christ to appear? When He said himself that the Kingdom of God would not come with outward show, it would come from within? Everyone in the churches (or tombs) as I call them, are running around trying to do what Jesus would do. If they could do that, then why did Jesus have to die? They talk a talk, and walk a walk and it is all cra*. They give more power to satan than they give to God. Did Christ say, "All power is given to me in heaven and on earth" and then give the devil some back? They give the devil power to keep their stupid judgments alive. No, they have only taken satan's place. They are like Necromancers, lulling those asleep back to the second death. Every so called Christian I know has absolutely no power. The only power they have is like rubbing two sticks together. Their own sacrifice and their works. The ultimate power is to be transformed incorruptible now. If you could receive the truth about what Christ did, it would take down all the rest of your cra*. Nothing would be impossible. But that would take some faith man.... that's where faith would start, but not where faith would end. Until then, you haven't recieved squat. Jesus said you could receive salvation when you died OR you could receive it now and never die. It's as simple as that. Jesus is not a man anymore, He is God and god is all and in all. There is no separation between GodJesusHolySpirit. I've heard so called Christians praying to all three separately. What kind of image of God is that? The truth has already returned to this world....too bad everyone missed it.
Yes I believe Christ will appear in all his glory, but that glory will be on those who have been truly redeemed from death. Not those waiting to die. They will have to stand in line.

[John]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FallOut [/i]
[B]I haven't heard anything here remotely Christian as I see it. If the punishment for sin was death, and Christ is your savior, then why do you still have to die? You don't have salvation at all. To be saved from death, now that would be salvation from your sins.

The ultimate power is to be transformed incorruptible now.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hey! You're right! I wanna be stuck on earth right now for the rest of my life! I want immortal powers, and I want them [i]now![/i] I ain't waitin' for [i]nothin'![/i] I don't want to experience a physical death to receive a glorious paradise! I'd better have immortality, because being stuck on a planet like this forever is waaaaaay better than anything else I could ever receive!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FallOut [/i]
[B]And why do the so called Christians think they are going to have a new body in a spiritual place? Why the heck would they need a body?[/B][/QUOTE]
It's taken as a figure of speech. It says a new body to mean a new "you," as best I could put it. And we believe it because it is clearly stated in The Bible, and that's what we go on.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FallOut[/i]
[B]And why are people waiting around for the end of the world? When it says that "once at the end of the world Christ took away our sins?" And why is everyone looking for Christ to appear? When He said himself that the Kingdom of God would not come with outward show, it would come from within?[/B][/QUOTE]
Why are people waiting around for the end of the world? Well, it's that or death (physically). I personally don't care which, but I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to see the Rapture.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FallOut[/i]
[B]Everyone in the churches (or tombs) as I call them, are running around trying to do what Jesus would do. If they could do that, then why did Jesus have to die? They talk a talk, and walk a walk and it is all cra*. They give more power to satan than they give to God. Did Christ say, "All power is given to me in heaven and on earth" and then give the devil some back? They give the devil power to keep their stupid judgments alive. No, they have only taken satan's place. They are like Necromancers, lulling those asleep back to the second death.[/B][/QUOTE]
Of course we can't do what Jesus could, but we are clearly commanded to do what we can. Do you suppose we should just say "Ah, screw it. I'm saved, so I guess I'm free to do whatever I want?" [B]No,[/B] because that's not what we are commanded to do. The devil has no power but the power we gave him, as you said, but we don't run around doing whatever we can to assist him. Those people are called satanists. They are the religious opposites of Chrisitians, and if you can't see that then (and I'm doing my best to put it as it is) you are very sad. But the fact is, everyone is going to sin. That's been said countless times now, and I thought people had figured that out by now.

[QUote][i]Originally posted by FallOut[/i]
[B]Every so called Christian I know has absolutely no power. The only power they have is like rubbing two sticks together. Their own sacrifice and their works...If you could receive the truth about what Christ did, it would take down all the rest of your cra*. Nothing would be impossible. But that would take some faith man.... that's where faith would start, but not where faith would end. Until then, you haven't recieved squat. Jesus said you could receive salvation when you died OR you could receive it now and never die. It's as simple as that. Jesus is not a man anymore, He is God and god is all and in all. There is no separation between GodJesusHolySpirit. I've heard so called Christians praying to all three separately. What kind of image of God is that? The truth has already returned to this world....too bad everyone missed it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, we have no power, but God has power. We aren't anything but messengerpeoples. We don't save people at all. And can I then suppose that [i]you[/i] know "the truth about what Christ did?" Or where Jesus said "you could receive salvation when you died OR you could receive it now and never die?"
"I've heard so called Christians praying to all three separately." Forgive me. From now on I will pray to GodJesusHolySpirit, even though Jesus prayed to God. But as you said before, we're not supposed to act like Jesus.

The truth has been around since the beginning of time....too bad you missed it.

[Justin]

Hmm...I wish you'd have used paragraphs, so I could better understand your post. But I'll do what I can:

Why are we waiting on Christ to return? We're ready for Heaven, lol. I'd certainly rather be there than here. And when He does return, and everything has come to it's full completion, it will be on Earth as it is in Heaven. Earth will be reinvented.

We're not saved from physical, no.(though, on occasion people ae still raised from the dead, as Lazarus was) But we're saved from the eternal judgemet and death that we all deserve through acceptance of Christ.

What do I mean by that? Humans are a failed product, basically. We were created to be in harmonious fellowship with the Lord, but we stole that from ourselves and from Him. God has every right to cut us all completely off from Him. Which would automatically send us to Hell--there and there alone will you be totally away from God--actually, you won't be, now that I think of it. Even those in Hell will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Lord.

The distinction between the three of the Godhead is their function. God the Father is the Lord Almighty. The God of Isreal, Jehovah, Yaweh, whatever name you call Him by. Jesus is the Saviour. The One who bring humans the chance to get back to Eden.(where we HAD harmonious fellowship wth God) Jesus Himself is actually just a manifestation of God on Earth. But because He is called the Son of God and defined as our intercessor with God, He has a different function. The Spirit is God's hand. The Comforter Jesus promised.

But even with all that, they are still the same, single, all powerful God. So, in a sense you're right, they are one. But their three functions are defined as three different parts. I don't undersand it, in truth; but that's because I'm human and He's God.

The devil has no power at all--and it is not ours to give it back. The only thing the devil can do is tempt, not force. So when humans do wrong, they give nothing back t the devil, their sin is none of his business.

Most of Christianity has deteriorated into a simple religion, I believe that is what you're saying. And I agree wholeheartedly. The state of certain portions of Christianity is almost depressing. Churches who no longer believe in the modern power of the Holy Spirit(they obviously don't read their Bible, considering God said through Joel "...my Spirit will be poured out on ALL flesh."), churches embracing the idea that Jesus is the Truth, but not the only Way(which is odd, because Jesus said "I am THE way..."), and churches beginning to say that the Bible is unreliable, because it was written by men(so they believe that God Almighty can deliver the Word, but not preserve it? Haha.)

But people do exist who have that personal relationship with Christ, trust me.

No person has any power, at all. The power of the Holy Spirit comes through those who use it in faith, and who submit to God in using it. If they do no do both, nothing will happen. Faith and submission, two incredible necessities that so many fail to understand.

I hope I've answered some of your questions or whatever. Maybe next time you could chop up your post a little more, if you don't mind. :)

-Justin

[AutoKill]

Drix D'Zanth....

You just don?t get it do you. You are just a subject of human reasoning. Am sure that you have no clue what am talking about. Seeing that most Christians don?t have a original thought in their head.
Every one is subject to curiosity. You can find this out just by looking at little kids. Their minds are growing and in this time they make complete thoughts in their head on how things work. If they see a bird flying they probably aren?t going to make the conclusion that the bird can fly b/c its bones are hollow and it has wings. (Not unless they were told by their parents are teachers) So they may think about this and say, ?The bird can fly because it?s small.? That is a example of human reasoning. Making a hypothesis from your own observations.
So is it to hard to think that humans made up religion just out of stupid human reasoning. Greek mythology is full of examples. So what makes the bible so different? People just seem so mystified by the bible, that they think it?s so remarkable. Every one seems to think 2000 years people were stupid. I will give you another example. People did not know if the world was flat or round. If any one 2000 years ago happened to look up at the sky they would see that the moon and sun formed a circle. And then a person used shadows to prove that the earth was round. The bible said that the world was round. The bible is full of these little things that prove to be right. So people go along with human reasoning at its the best. I image it would be hard to prove something wrong that has been added on to for 2000 years.

Please Drix D?Zanth, try to give me a little more of a argument other then quoting every thing I say. You falter me to much by doing so.

[Dagger]

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[B]Drix D'Zanth....

You just don?t get it do you. You are just a subject of human reasoning. Am sure that you have no clue what am talking about. Seeing that most Christians don?t have a original thought in their head. [/b][/quote]

First off, certain generalizations are just about impossible to prove. I'd like to see you try to support that last statement. Anyway, what makes you believe that "most Christians don't have an original thought in their head?" And if you're of the opinion that Drix doesn't get it, please, for the love of all things good, explain why.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AutoKill [/i]
[b]Every one seems to think 2000 years people were stupid. I will give you another example. People did not know if the world was flat or round. If any one 2000 years ago happened to look up at the sky they would see that the moon and sun formed a circle. And then a person used shadows to prove that the earth was round. The bible said that the world was round. The bible is full of these little things that prove to be right. So people go along with human reasoning at its the best. I image it would be hard to prove something wrong that has been added on to for 2000 years.

Please Drix D?Zanth, try to give me a little more of a argument other then quoting every thing I say. You falter me to much by doing so. [/B][/QUOTE]

I honestly have no idea what you're attempting to say. Your earlier posts made it sound as though you despise Christianity in general. Now I'm really quite confused. I won't even bother discussing your last sentence.

Back to the topic at hand. I go to a Quaker school, and we have several minutes of silence before every class. I'm not particularly religious, but it's nice to have some quiet time. Some people pray, some don't--everyone ends up happy.

~Dagger~