Writing Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series.

[Haze]

[COLOR=royalblue]so i just found out we are allowed to discuss books in here. and i wanna kno if anyone else has ever read the wheel of time series. it is really really good. if you havent listen to this: Set in a world where two kinds of magic exist, one female and the other male, the Wheel of Time series features as its hero Rand, who begins the first volume as a simple shepherd. A visitor soon sends Rand on an epic journey to unite the people of his planet against the Dark One, who threatens vast destruction. Rand's quest takes him through a dazzling array of meticulously detailed alien cultures and such unforgettable characters as the mysterious and lovely Egwene, the sorceress Moiraine, and Moiraine's companion, Lan. wow. sounds good eh? you should really check it out. please do. . . i would like someone to talk about it with.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=crimson]the first book is called "the eye of the world"[/COLOR]

[COLOR=limegreen]~haze[/COLOR]

[Sara]

[size=1]I read the first one. I didn't like it that much...the last hundred pages or so were pretty good, but I don't know if it was worth muddling through all the other stuff.

I get all the characters and events muddled with the ones in [i]Sword of Truth[/i] and [i]Shannara[/i]. /[/size]

[Rhys Mayiessen]

[color=indigo]I've read the first two of the series though I want to finish the rest! I really enjoyed the first two and hopefully the others will be as good! So don't spoil some stuff for me! (though one of my friends has a little)[/color]

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=indigo]I've read the entire series, hell, I reviewed Crossroads of Twilight, and I've always found myself less than impressed (don't ask why I keep reading them). I mean, I won't deny that Robert Jordan does have no small amount of talent, but he always seems to feel the urge to wrap everything up in very strange names and carbon copied characters. I mean, take the females. More than 75% of them are overly strong willed, opinionated, high browed etc (his words in most cases, not mine). They're all the same.

Secondly, his plot-lines tend to run in circles. Rand runs around a bit, converts some people, run into a big nasty Dark One worshipping creature, and there we go. The only exception is the last book, that was simply a set up for whatever he writes next. It could have been done in half a book, and actually put some storyline in it.

I really don't care for it much.[/font][/color]

[Haze]

the first book is kind of boring because it has to introduce you to all of the characters, the problems with the world, all that confusing stuff about saidar and saidin, the past, Lews Therin's history, Author Hawking and what he did to the world, not to mention whats going on right now. so it does take a while to get through it. but i must say as they go on, he doesnt have to explain all that much anymore.
ya, the second book is great! have you actually finished the second book? i loved what happened at the end. . . .except for with that [spoiler=] shienerian guy when he tells he is a darkfriend... he was my favorite character. but he definitley took the honorable way out[/spoiler]. or was that even in that book? if it wasnt it wont really spoil anything for you. . . Rand had already been in Shienar. so its still a mystery for ya!
~haze

[The Harlequin]

[font=gothic][color=indigo]I think the other problem with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is it [spoiler]seems to be some kind of outlet for Jordan's repressed life style... I mean, really, the three wives thing was so un-neccessary, and Jordan just seemed to delight in it so much. I swear he's just a repressed old man writing out bizarre fantasies....Of course, that's a long running joke between some friends and myself, and it would take a lot more explaining than that.[/spoiler][/font][/color]

[PrinceGranger]

(I should note I have only read the first 6 books, the sixth one being titled Lord of Chaos)

There's no doubt that Robert Jordan has several sexuality issues he likes to act out in his books. If you don't think that Robert Jordan is a sexist or a pervert... then you may be a sexist or a pervert (bad jeff foxworthy joke, remember him?)

I couldn't agree more with Harliquins accessment that most of the female characters are the same. It makes for both repetetive and therefore predictable reading.

That's the books' strongest weakeness, but there's no doubt that the series has many admirable quilities.

First of which being charcters, I've got to talk about them just a little, but I'll keep it to the [spoiler]Ta'veren ;)[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Perrin Aybara[/spoiler] is an excellently interesting character, especially in the first few books. The discovery of wonders and undreamed of places combined with a self discovery make for wonderful reading. Then his development as a man. Unfortunately [spoiler]Perrin[/spoiler] really falls apart for me when [spoiler]Fale comes into the picture, anotehr typical female character that is not only uninteresting in herself, but turns Perrin into a dolt and a simpleton who seems only good at whipping his axe about and making the same 'manly' decisions about protecting women and keeping their stomachs calm at the site of blood that far too many of the male characters subscribe to.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Mattriun Catthoun (forgive my spelling)[/spoiler] you have not met a rascal until you have met [spoiler]Matt[/spoiler], nor have you probably ever seen such an interesting 'power' and set of circumstances. Plus, he brings a perspective to the book that is a great addiction and an attitude that the book really needed.

And then there is [spoiler]Rand Al'Thor[/spoiler]. Ah, [spoiler]Rand Al'Thor[/spoiler], or should I say [spoiler]Lews Therin Telamon [/spoiler]. [spoiler]Rand[/spoiler] epitomizes the struggle for identity, the solitude of power and responsibility, the desperation of madness and the hopelessness of destiny. [spoiler]Rand Al'Thor IS the Dragon Reborn[/spoiler]

Notice all the spoiler spots? That's because the terminology and the the identity that Robert Jordan attaches to his concepts and characters is so powerful that to see the words in print would reveal too much of their identity for those that may not yet want that.

On top of all this, Jordan has created a world that really expands on the foundations of fantasy. These books take on a size large enough to explore individuals, idnetities and relationships more thoroughly then a lot of other narratives (of whatever media). I think the books loose pace as time goes on. Again I refer to Harliquin who I agree with when he says Rand runs in circles, 'tis true. But I won't critisize that too much, I only agree to a small degree and plus I think it is the structure of the story; sometimes people, and by people I mean us, ourselves, find ourselves running in circles don't we? [spoiler] plus Rand is a mad man :wigout: and the existence of the forsaken is what's really responsible for all this stalling. (Though that could be identified as a somewhat bothersome narrative device by Jordan to stretch it out, as though I need to read that Avienda glared at Rand and gave him the silent treatment again... 'oh, well Rand thought dumbly and pointed his index finger to his head with his thumb up like a handgun- "der... me no understand women" and then he drolls and trips over Perrin, who is so dumbstruck by a woman he has forgotten how to walk or even stand'[/spoiler]

ok, sorry about that..... more frustrating about how the story looses pace is the sheer number of scenes of 'sexual' tension and political chest puffing. It works to a degree to make me crave the endings of each book and makes me root for the Dragon ;) because I want to see this stupid beaurocracy just shattered. (Keep in mind I'm only through book 6, perhaps it will)

But we may never know, although I think this is one of the best series I've eer laid eyes to (I thought that more strongly during the first 4 books or so) I just had to put it down, I bought the 7th, A Crown of Swords, but just won't open it, I've got better things to do then read about another year of sexist domination (women over men)==> I know that info is more personal, but I thought I'd share my experience as an insight inside what the books and the series are. But let me finish with this, my complaints first surfaced with great anger and frustraion, and I know that is because I had been loving this story so much that I was passionate about it. It's powerful, it's amazing and it was worth it.

Perhaps one day I'll pick it up and finish it. What say all? Anyone read further then me? Understand what I'm talking about? Will it get better?.... aw what am I talking about, I'll finish the series. Why? because it's great. It's the Wheel, it's the Dragon, you'll understand.

[Okita]

Annoying trait about the series is that it packs less and less content into each new book, as the story progress, the main characters' journy diverge and before you know it, around 6 simultanous stories are going on at once, while I have nothing wrong with this style of writting in general, as it tends to spice up the plot and give unique perspective, when it gets to the point that and entire book is roughly 5-6 huge chunk that seemed stuck together and not entirely interwovened then it gets a tad bit desperate. I know that Cross Road of Twilight is simply a building block to the series end, but I can't help but feel cheated.

I agree that the female characters a slight... repetitive, but speaking of characters in general, I have to say that it's one of the story highlight for me. My favourite character is Matt, and I believe alot of reader also share my view that he one of the few male character in the book that has common sense. (though not as much as I'd hope)

But seriously, I've been following this series since book one and I while it has it's fault, I still feel that it's a classic and well worth reading.

as a side note, yes I believe Robert Jordan is an old pervert too, just see his review for the Kushiel series by Jacqueline Carey.... (though I freely admit I too love the series :) )

[Sarangeyo]

I love the Wheel of Time Series! We have all the books released! (My dad is a major fan). I've only read to book 5, but I'm working on it. :D I like Mat and Perrin the most. I like Rand al Thor too, just not as much. Egwene is pretty cool along with Elaine, but my favorite girl character would have to be a tie between Nynaeve and Min. Though Elaida...She really is such a...well I'll not go there. ^^

The storyline is so well developed along with the world. It's hard for me to not like the books. ^^

-edit-Sorry. This really was a sucky post, so I'm adding to it. Gomen.

I don't think that Robert Jorden is a sexist or pervert. I think, though some of the female characters are...shall we say odd, he has a good idea of how some women think. Nynaeve is such a feminist. lol ^^ The difference between the characters are a lot greater than some people think. Nynaeve and Egwene are very different. Egwene is much more feminine and she doesn't really have that beef against men. Min is a major tomboy. Moraine is a strong woman, who believes in order. Siuan is a great leader. Also, since women were the only ones who could channel for such a long time (without going nutso in the least), it only figures that Women became the dominant sex. That's how it was in our world--Men being generally more strong (physically), and thus they became the dominant gender. That's changing thankfully. (Now, if you want total domination over men--read about drow. They get pretty hardcore.)

To cut this short, I think R. Jorden got a pretty good idea ofhow the relationships between men and women would be in his world.

[PrinceGranger]

On the one hand I want to agree with Sarengeo and say that the female characters are indeed different; cause they are. Jordan even does a good job of getting inside their heads at time and showing us what kind of women they are. I found the amount of the 6th book, Lord of Chaos, that was told from Nynaeve's perspective to be exceptionally well done. It's a subtlty of presentation combined with the real life perspective of a normal person caught up in the craziness of the Wheel. We can definitly see that Nynaeve from her more traditional and conservative farm-life upbringing is not the same kind of woman as Elayne with her sense of ceremony and human chess. Egwene is another interesting facet of that, the way in which she is or has grown up to [spoiler] Aiel and Dreamwalker, a much different path then her Two Rivers sister Nynaeve [/spoiler]. Moraine is strong too, just like Sarengo mentioned, but Moraine's character is the beginning of everything that's wrong with these books.

Moraine is a strong character, and a character in a position of power. Yet... her power seems incomplete. I can sympathize with her dilema, power beyond imagination and yet at the same time limitations. But that's not the point here, the point is that she plays some kind of mother roll to many of the early women in the book and many of the early men. I shouldn't phrase it that way, because a mother roll is not acurate, but she sets the stage for the relationship between men and women on the planet. Men; cower, fear, respect and listen to me (or don't but I'm so brilliant that everything you do that is the opposite of what I say is exctly what I want because I cleverly predicted your rash and emotional decision making and told you the opposite of what I wanted KNOWING you would do the opposite of what you were told!) Women; emulate me, we are the world's leaders, we are smarter then men, and we as a gender are so great that we must keep our knowledge and customs a secret from man, never shall we give up our powers and advantages.

Manipulation through lies and sexuality, dismissal of female faults or mistakes simply because they are women, the long term mindset that men are dumb and need to be 'shown what is right' and the game that these women seem to enjoy in enforcing their superioir knowledge and decision making.

I am a man, but don't hold that against me. I point out injustice wherever i see it, and I find the representation of the sexes in this book to be negative for both men and women. Again, I agree with Sarengo when she points out that there would be a noticable difference between the sexes if one sex had access to the True Source and one did not. But I don't think the difference we're seeing are attributable to that. From the women's circle in the Two Rivers to Faile the Hunter for the Horn to Padan Fain to Sameel: we see all kinds of situations where the sexual barrier and advantage that Saidar (Saidin? which one is it now? Hulk confussed) could give women plays no part. The Women's Circle is just another example of female unity in the face of male incompetence. Faile is an independent women in a world where it seems that everyone is one of two exteremes; docile and subserviant to men (which we can only assume exists since the Two Rivers girls are always shocked and outraged by custom and culture; even if we never have SEEN one submissive woman (not even Min)) or on polar opposite of that; 'independent' of men or even 'dominant' to an almost abusive level as we see in the CLICHE domani women. I'd like to point out that women are never independent or dominant in these books, precisely because of the dependency they have on men. It is just that instead of working with men, as the men are willing to do (if not always unreluctantly) they choose instead to use tits power games to make men act. I'll hate the world of dreams forever if for no other reason then it has given Jordan liscense to turn every female character in the book into his own personal barbie doll. 'I think today Elayne will wear a grean dess with a sweeeeeeping neckline that shows of her ample bossum, oh but then a naughty thought of Rand in his Huckleberry Hound tighty-whities makes her heart do summersaults and the next thing she knows she looks down and sees that she is in a dominatrix attire made entirely of lether and some strange material that is used to hold it all together, not solid like metal, but not soft like fabric...and what is with these interlocking metal teeth in the mask she now wears over her mouth- and what description of a costume in the dream world would be complete without mentioning those breasts at least twice... now her ter'angrel ring, the ring of dreamwalking dangles down between her pushed up and exposed breast tops, slidding across one onto the other as she swayed from side to side.'

The only people that demonstrate any real sense of sexual equality are the bad guys. The Dark One doesn't seem to have any problem recruiting men and women for his ranks. The Forsaken take themselves and each other seriously, or at least equally so. Sameel is just as big a threat to everyone as Moghedian (sp - sorry). Instead sexism and what I consider to be degrading and insulting behavior is always displayed by the 'good' guys. And don't get me wrong, they are the good guys, since they struggle to prevent the end of civilization as it is known and prevent the untimely deaths of almost all of mankind, but still--! Is this the message that Robert Joradn is attaching to 'good' in his books? That men should continue to regard women as less then equals and individuals? That we of the male persuassion just consider woman as an inferior species in need of our assistance and every turn and rather then be allowed to develop and grow as individuals, live a life of shelter where 'bad things' cannot hurt them and where tall walls keep them safe? Does Robert Jordan want to continue the generalization and insultingly inaccurate comment that men are stupid individuals? That men are placatable boobs who not only will endure and tolerate women to come in and out of their lives outside of the rolls of government, diplomacy to manipulate them? What purpose do men play in the world other then to wave around their phallic swords of power if they are only going to march off to do the deeds and bidding of women?

Surely I don't argue for the reverse of any of these things, surely women as all people deserve rescue and protection when it is available. And surely a fool of a leader needs guidance, be that leader man or woman and be that guider the same or the other.

Siuan Sanche? Bah, great leader, great shmeeder. A great leader let the ranks deminish? A great leader allowed herself to be so EASILY [spoiler] dispossed? [/spoiler] A great leader that has let the black and red Ajah struggle all the real power away from her? What testiment do we have to the greatness of Siuan Sanche other then the 'look on her face' when the other characters are so easily intimidated by her? Her sidekick, Leanne is a perfect example of what I'm talking about as we see her become [spoiler] an instant body whore the second her Aes Sedai powers are stripped from her. [/spoiler]

Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling and that no one really cares. If you've read the books you either agree with me or you don't. They're good, but Robert Jordan's greateness will forever be soiled in my mind because of this decision for sexuality. I agree again with Sarengo who says "I think R. Jorden got a pretty good idea of how the relationships between men and women would be in his world." Like I said, I do agree, but not EVERY relationship. Not EVERY governemnt. Not EVERY palace and EVERY feast and EVERY woman at EVERY dance in EVERY city in the whole damned world. Robert Jordan isn't a women, even if he really wants to be. His books are sexist and his mind is narrow when it comes to sexuality . <===period


I don't want to be negative though, let's talk about some of the positive aspects of the books :devil: