Covenant

[Dan L]

I attach a warning to this thread-

It is VERY Christianity related.

This isn't a "Christianity versus the world" thread, but it's a topic aimed at those within the faith, to see whether they have ever been told this. So in the same way that most of us would go into a thread of any other subject we weren't interested in, ranting about how stupid it is, I ask the same respect here.

It's not so much a question to everyone to do with "why can't you just BELIEVE this?". It's actually a question to the Christians on the boards- I'm about to write one of THE most important things I've ever heard in my life, both Christian and in the 19 years before that part of my life.

However, I've NEVER heard it before yesterday.

A brief background-

I'm doing a course called Tribal Training, at a church in Sheffield, a city I moved into about a month and a half ago. I haven't been on OB for a while partly because of various things I had going on in the summer, and partly because afterwards when I mover to Sheffield, it's taken until now and we STILL haven't got broadband sorted at the place where I live. So I'm currently on OB at a job-centre.

Yesterday, Mike Breen, the head of the church, talked to us about covenant. It goes something like this:

In ancient times, there was a practice called "cutting a covenant" which happened between two parties, and then the two entered into a covenant relationship.

A covenant relationship was one where the two people involved would essentially become one. Both of their names would change, in order to incorporate a part of the other party's name into one's own, and each of them had full access to each other's resources.

A covenant relationship was generally between a weaker member and a stronger member. Practically everyone was in covenant with somebody, and not to be in such a relationship would leave you vulnerable to attack from many people.

The sign of someone in a covenant was a scar on their hand- they would cut their hands and then rub ash or dye into it so that it would permanently show. Whenever they walked into a public place and greeted someone they would raise their hand and people would see they were in covenant, so no-one would attack them since when either member of the covenant relationship was attacked, you effectively attacked the other aswell, and you never knew [i]who[/i] else you were attacking.

As you can imagine, it was always the stronger (or more prosperous) person which actually invited the weaker one into covenant, rather than the other way around. Then the process of entering a covenant involved a corridor of blood made by killing some animals and halving them completely (it was such a big deal that blood- seen as the source of life- was the only thing that could seal it), and the two people exchanged places as a sign of their new identities. In some cases they exchanged clothing so that when someone saw one of them from a distance, you saw that person as the one which they are in covenant with.

This is why Abraham pushed for God to make a covenant with him, and why he didn't doubt what God said afterwards. (I'd go into more detail on that little point but I don't have much time- about 10 mins)

That's the background- here's the good bit:

God made a covenant with you-

He invited you into an [i]EQUALITY[/i] relationship, believe it or not. You may have heard a lot of times the concept of Jesus dying for our sins, but it makes no sense whatsoever without this fundamental information: Jesus died, and spilt his blood to seal the COVENANT that God decided to invite you into. God already made the corridor of blood for you by allowing Jesus to die. his blood was perfect, so it was the only blood that could seal such a huge deal.

When you said yes to God and invited him into your life, you did spiritually the same thing that the Abraham's contemporaries did when the two parties exchanged places in the corridor of blood. You gained access to the full resources of heaven. If you doubt that, bear in mind that the bible says that we have full access to heaven in the name of Jesus- "in the name of Jesus" being a reference to the changing of names in ancient covenants.

The Armour of God in Eph. 6 is the same as the exchange of clothing- when the devil sees you, he sees God, and every time he does see you, he fears that maybe you will realise this fundamental fact and use the power you have against him.

There's so much more but I honestly don't have time right now- Just wanted to give what I've heard to those in the faith who haven't, because it's such a fundamental thing which so few of us are told.

-Dan

[Justin]

This most definately falls in stride with a recent revelation throughout the Spirit-filled Church. The power of the name of Jesus.

I once heard this illustration: So many Christians constantly say this prayer: 'God, give me more power.' Well, what would you do if the sky parted, God poked His head through the clouds and said 'Where am I gonna get it? I've already given you everything I can, when are YOU gonna use it?'

Hello, Church! I pity the person who walks around in dispair and negativity because they fear for themselves in this age--the last days(wow, what a revelation there, it's been the 'last days' for 2,000 years.). Christians should have the ultimate reason to be happy, should we not? Hello, we're saved. Not only are we saved, we're empowered.

I really think people should do a deeper study on the Early Church, I'm tired of what 1800-something years of trying to choke out the Spirit has done to humanity's friendship with God. And [i]that[/i] is what Christianity is--humanity's friendship with the Lord. It's not a religion, because religion is the very scale that covers the eyes of many people today.

Praise the Lord!

Man, I feel so much better now. Excellent point, Dan.

-Justin

[John]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]I really think people should do a deeper study on the Early Church, I'm tired of what 1800-something years of trying to choke out the Spirit has done to humanity's friendship with God. And [i]that[/i] is what Christianity is--humanity's friendship with the Lord. It's not a religion, because religion is the very scale that covers the eyes of many people today.[/B][/QUOTE]
Not only is it a friendship, it's an intimate marriage between He and The Church, and every one of His children individually. Christianity involves many levels of respect that are not limited to friendship. Then again, you [i]could[/i] sum it up like you said because if you aren't his friend, you're his enemy.

[TheShinje]

I like the points you have bought up Dan, and btw, it's good to see you back here. I have always understood Jesus dying for our sins as the sealing of his everlasting covenant, while not always in the heart, it certainly has become a primary focus since being filled with the holy spirit not less than 2 weeks ago.

God moves in so many ways that we do not understand, and I believe most professing Christians do not fully grasps the sacrifice God made of our sins. I have heard that, Jesus will still bear the marks of crucifixion when we meet him in eternity, and he will bear them for eternity, I don't know how biblically sound that is, but it falls in line perfectly with your description of the covenant.
-Praise the Lord!

[Baron Samedi]

I just need to quote this, sorry for butting in: [quote][i]Originally posted by Circuit/J[/i]
you could sum it up like you said because if you aren't his friend, you're his enemy.[/quote]

How George Bush-ish. Did you get that from him? Just because you don't believe in God does not mean you are his enemy. Is He not all-forgiving? Does he not forgive sinners? Why would he then not forgive those who merely chose to be neutral in the religion game? Why? If He is so good, then he should forgive all, right?

IF, as you say, we are all His children, then he should care for and forgive the wayward ones as well as the good ones, correct? I just thought that comments was incredibly narrow-minded and un-christian, as I percieve Christians to be. No need to rebutt me, I have no place in this thread as a non-christian. I just thought it was a needed point to cover. Back to Dan's topic.

[Vegitto4]

Actually, Baron, The Word of God does state that if you are not fighting for him, you are against him.

:: picks up handy dandy bible::

"For he who is not against us is for us"~ Mark 9:40

also

Matthew 12:30 & Luke 11:23 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."


Therefore, there is no neutral status with the Lord.


He will forgive those that come to him; However, until they come to him, they are sinners, and will always be looked upon as such.

Revelation 3:15-16 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot. I would thou wert cold or hot. (16) So then, because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" KJV

He Does Love each and every one of us equally. That is why we all have the same chance to accept his Covenant. The Lord does not hold it from "uber evil" people; However, unless you are serious, your repentence(which is a spin 180º, and you are supposed to go the other way to correct your mistakes, and do well to further the Kingdom from then on) will not be recognized.

God does not give out Fire Insurance to those who do not wish to change.

[Adahn]

I've recently begun thinking on such topics, and a few thoughts have come to my mind. The first pertains to communicating with God. I think it's a misconception that communicating with God is a situation where we talk, and he listens. I've come to think that God talks more than we think he does, and we are the ones who aren't listening. The Bible is a great way to see how God communicates, but those words are old and unchanging, and we should listen to what he is saying to us now. I could be wrong, seeing as I have limited knowledge in areas of Christianity, but I think God lives within us all, within our conscience. Whether people realize it or not, everyone knows right from wrong. Those cartoons with an angel over one shoulder and a devil over the other. Almost all situations in which we have a choice have a good decision, and a bad one. In some situations, there is a gray area, a choice where the correct decision is not easily discernable through our conscience, our permanent, living connection with God. In these situations, we pray for guidance, we open our hearts, and we listen. My greatest wish for myself is that I listen whenever God speaks, and also that I close my ears when Satan does.

My second thought is less clear, but it is a thought, nonetheless. I wonder if we realize how much power God truly has given us. Jesus' disciples were given much power to heal, and I wonder if we have the same power. Three miracles are required nowadays for sainthood, and these miracles must be widely known for such a thing to happen. When Jesus performed miracles, he asked that they be kept a secret, so that fame would not spread, because too much fame for a miracle gives rise to doubt. Having said that, I wonder what miracles are performed that are not given fame, I wonder how many saints there would be if all miracles were known. Those that think this same thing would keep them a secret with God, because perhaps that is his will. Who's to say we cannot ask God for such things to happen, if our heart is pure, our faith unlimited, and our purpose just.

Also, I have a little story that might be of interest. When I was young, too young to remember, I was sledding in my backyard. My mom pushed me, but unknowingly, she pushed too hard and I was heading for a tree. Somehow, I was stopped when it seemed as if I were going to hit the tree headfirst at a high velocity. When my mom ran down to get me, I apparently told her that I saw an angel on top of a tree. This is not from my memory, but I see no reason why my mother would lie about something I said.

Lastly, I would suggest that we respect Baron Samedi's request for no rebuttal, and keep this topic on matters that concern those who believe in Christianity.

[Kanojo]

How are you saved?
To be saved is to be saved from death
Adahn was saved from death
Will he continue to be saved from death?
How can you say you are saved from sin?
Death is the only punishment for sin
Christ did not give us the blood he poored out
He gave us his blood at last supper
He did not drink of that cup at that supper
He drank of another cup later in garden
The one no one else could drink from and live
It was our blood that flowed down his face
It was the only way Christ could die
His blood was incorruptible
He gave man his flesh at that supper also
Incorruption was there also
The power of Jesus name lies in incorruption
He is eternal life
He is the Kingdom
He will drink this cup with you
It is a cup of faith
It is where faith begins
It is not faith to believe in a god of death
Death is all around
Easy to believe in death
Faith is to believe what no one dares to believe
Faith is to believe what no one can see
Kanojo will never die
Her God is the same God who gave eternal life to man
God did not change
Man did
Jesus made a way for man to be changed back
On Earth as it is in Heaven

[Dan L]

Adahn, you have some proper decent ideas there- I'm just going to take a post to expand on them, in the way I see things:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]I've recently begun thinking on such topics, and a few thoughts have come to my mind. The first pertains to communicating with God. I think it's a misconception that communicating with God is a situation where we talk, and he listens. I've come to think that God talks more than we think he does, and we are the ones who aren't listening.[/B][/QUOTE]

So right!!

God is ALWAYS talking to us. What we hear is not based on how much god's saying, but on our capacity to listen. In order to hear God more, you need to be able to listen more, to focus more on his voice.

For ages I was told about "focussing on God" and "seeking His face", but I was never told how to do it so it resulted in a lot of frustration. Probably the best way to focus on God is through Spiritual Disciplines.

I think there are 12 Spiritual Disciplines in total, each of which helps us grow in our faith in different areas. They include:

Study- simply put, this is reading the bible. Most Christians do this in some form but there is also a knack to doing this effectively. As you read you need to ask certain questions like "When this was written, what was it meant to be saying, ie. what is the context?" Sometimes you need to look into commentaries and other theological resources to actually find this out. It's not "unspiritual", it usually adds a lot of depth to what you're reading. For example, if Mike Breen didn't study the nature of covenant by looking up these sorts of things, he would never have given the mind-blowing talk he did the other day. Other questions to ask are "How is this text speaking to me at this point in my life?". One of God's main methods of communicating is through the Bible- but because of the sheer age of the book, some of the cultural references are lost on us, so we usually need to look into the first question in order to have a decent answer to the second. And finally, always ask "How can I apply this", because no-one who hears from God should be exactly the same afterwards.

Fasting- This can take many forms. Essentially it is abstaining from something for a period of time. Usually it is in the form of fasting from food (and sometimes water) for a time. To start off you may want to fast a meal, maybe once a week, then go up to a day, once every two weeks, and keep building up until you feel confident to take a step up. Most people I know who fast, do so for two days a week, but it takes a while to get to that level, and you do NOT want to be doing it out of legalism ("I [i]have[/i] to do this") but out of a desire to deny yourself and further your own faith. Once you become confident with 1 day fasting you can occasionally take steps up to 2 day, 3 day, or 1 week fasts, but these are generally for more specific purposes, or on a less regular basis. As I said earlier, you can also fast from various other things. I know someone who's fasting from caffiene at the moment- it doesn't have to be food, but food is probably the most effective when you feel ready to try it.

The long-term benefits of fasting are that it helps you to control your own appetite. A lot of the time, we are controlled by whether we feel hungry or not, and that defines when we eat. By fasting, and gradually becoming able to control your appetite for food, it also helps you gain control over problems such as lust, and general sinful "appetites". Thus at the same time it also helps you to focus on God by gaining self-control over a lot of the things that get in the way. By no means does it makes us any more [i]worthy[/i] to hear from God, but it clears away a lot of the stuff which gets between us and God.

There are about another 10 Disciplines, including Worship, Solitude, Silence, Prayer. By no means do you need to do them all, but they all help in some way or another to further your faith as a continuous process, and to focus more on God. I won't go into the others partly because I need to crack on with the rest of what you said, but mainly because I haven't had any real teaching on them, so I'd just be waffling about what I thought they were about.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]The Bible is a great way to see how God communicates, but those words are old and unchanging, and we should listen to what he is saying to us now.[/B][/QUOTE]

You're half-right and maybe half-wrong there. Yes, the Bible is words of old. But if by that you're meaning that it's not as important for us as what God's saying today, then that's a bit of a misconception.

The Bible is very clear that God never changes, or that he is eternally the same. The Bible was written in a certain context, which no longer exists today in the Western world, but at the same time, the message behind it stays the same. The Ten Commandments were written specifically for the Israelite people, and were specifically written to correct behavioural issues which were less than God intended. The actual context is far different from today, but the message behind them, and the lifestyle that God promotes in still the same today.

Jesus' teaching took place 2,000 years ago. Various images he referred to would have been understood far more by people of the day, who all knew about the way vines grew (referred to when he said "I am the vine, you are the branches"). The culture has changed significatly, so the actual words which God speaks to us have changed also, but the message is the same, so the Bible, when in relation to modern-day guidance, serves well not only as a way of hearing from God, but as an acid-test for words of prophecy (where prophecy is words from God spoken to people, not just words for the future). If the prophecy of new matches, in terms of the underlying message, the words of old, then you can be fairly sure that it's of God, because he doesn't change his ways. If, however, it's in direct opposition to a verse of scripture, then it clearly isn't from God. This is also another reason why it's good to familiarise yourself with as much of the Bible as possible- it increases your discerning ability w.r.t. what God may be saying to you, and to others.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]I could be wrong, seeing as I have limited knowledge in areas of Christianity, but I think God lives within us all, within our conscience. Whether people realize it or not, everyone knows right from wrong. Those cartoons with an angel over one shoulder and a devil over the other. Almost all situations in which we have a choice have a good decision, and a bad one.[/B][/QUOTE]

That's right- Mick Woodhead, the vicar of the St. Thomas' Parish Church here in Sheffield (the church has two parts- the Crookes Parish Church and the Philadelphia Campus) taught us on Genesis the other week. One of the things he said was that God when he created us, put into us a "conscience", which would essentially let us know when we are considering something that is wrong. Eve wrestled with her conscience when the Snake in the garden told her to eat the fruit.

Ultimately, it's one of the products of our being made in God's image- a little niggling feeling about when we're straying further away from his will.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]My greatest wish for myself is that I listen whenever God speaks, and also that I close my ears when Satan does.[/B][/QUOTE]

I always found/still find it hard at times to decide whether something's of God or the Devil. As you read the Bible more and get more into the Spiritual Disciplines it doesn't necessarily become easier, but your ability to discern grows. As you spend more time seeking God and listening to his voice, you learn what it sounds like to the point that you can tell just from what is said, whether it's of God or the Devil.

I have by no means reached that point yet, but there was an excellent talk about that point at New Wine this year, from a guy called Mark Bailey, who leads a church in Cheltenham, here in the UK.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Adahn [/i]
[B]My second thought is less clear, but it is a thought, nonetheless. I wonder if we realize how much power God truly has given us. Jesus' disciples were given much power to heal, and I wonder if we have the same power. Three miracles are required nowadays for sainthood, and these miracles must be widely known for such a thing to happen. When Jesus performed miracles, he asked that they be kept a secret, so that fame would not spread, because too much fame for a miracle gives rise to doubt. Having said that, I wonder what miracles are performed that are not given fame, I wonder how many saints there would be if all miracles were known. Those that think this same thing would keep them a secret with God, because perhaps that is his will. Who's to say we cannot ask God for such things to happen, if our heart is pure, our faith unlimited, and our purpose just.[/B][/QUOTE]

I often think about this. The sheer power we've been given is amazing- we have been given the full power of God, and yet as time has passed since the day of Pentecost, over 2,000 years we've seen it not grow but diminish. A few figures stand out extraordinarily, such as John Wesley, Smith Wigglesworth, and in the case of the present day, Brother Yun (who fasted from food [i]and water[/i] for 76 days- something I doubt most will even believe possible). I think one of the main problems is culture:

There are so many cultural influences which affect the way we think these days. Most of which seemingly aren't adressed in the Bible, so we carry on with them despite the fact that many of them prevent us from leaving areas of our life to faith, and submitting them to God's will.

In addition, many Christians tend to focus [i]way[/i] too much on the "God loves you as you are" aspect of the gospel, and completely missing out the "God wants to help you improve" aspect, so a lot of the time, the preacher will be there every week to forgive people of their sins, and tell them that they're loved, but there will be no means for people to learn to "go and sin no more", which is just as biblical a concept.

Although it's all well and good being loved, faith to do great things usually grows through removing the things which consistently get between us and God. This often means going against the general trends of the culture of the day, something which I don't see many Christians doing, or willing to try.

Most of the well known figures behind revivals through the ages got did incredible things. They were normal men nonetheless, but they went through years of increasing their grasp on the spiritual disciplines and such- John Wesley got up at 3 am every morning to pray for a few hours before he did anything. If any of us tried that, we'd be falling asleep while trying to pray at that time, and grouchy from not getting enough sleep.

John Wesley demonstrated incredibly the power which God can give to us, but at the same time he made huge sacrifices for the Lord- not least of which focussing more on God, and what God is saying to him, than what the culture of the day dictated for him to do. That doesn't mean you don't use that culture to reach people, but you need to understand the way it affects your thinking, and if it affects your thinking, to be further away from God's will, then you need to change yourself away from it, ie. to be "in the world but not of the world".

And yet at the same time you need to be respectful of those that haven't grown as much in the same areas as you- not to look down on them as "unholy", which can be an easy thing to slip into.

In short, if you want to know more of the full power God has given to you, you need to do it gradually. There are so many things to consider, especially in days when we live in a culture such as this. One of the most important things is patience- We tend to live far too much in a culture of instant gratification- becoming more confident in the power of God needs to be a process, not an instant thing.

The best way to get started is to focus on a spiritual discipline and to work it slowly into your life until you feel confident about it, and then work on another one. It sounds legalistic, but as long as in your heart, you're doing it to further your faith rather than out of a legalistic need to do it, it's really not like that.


Lastly, if you do want to get into the disciplines, I recommend looking at these sites:

[url]http://www.spirithome.com/spirdisc.html[/url] -- a good introduction, particularly to why Christians practice the spiritual disciplines.

[url]http://www.watersedge.tv/disciplines_prayerstudy.htm[/url] -- An excellent online guide to the spiritual disciplines, including how to get into them starting small and growing from there.

[Kanojo]

Jesus came to set us free
Free from death
Free from Dan L
Free from sacrifice
Man cannot sacrifice and live
Man cannot sacrifice and be free
Satan is gone
Man has taken his place
Trying to be God's mirror
Only reflection is not God
Reflection is death
Dan L is like Necromancer
Lulling those asleep back to second death
Awake! Awake!
Or sleep the sleep of death!
Kanojo is free!
Kanojo will wake the dead!

[Justin]

FallOut's sister, I assume. Jesus came to set us free, but if there is no Satan, what then are we free from? If there is no judgement, what then is salvation?

Your points are all excellent, Dan. It does me good to see how much you've grown.

Just as Dan said, God does not change. Therefore, neither does His Holy Spirit and the gifts He can give us. I know saints gifted with the authority to heal and authority over demonic forces. I know saints gifted with prophecy, and I know saints gifted with tongues(I'm one of them) and discernment. This is the [i]living[/i] God that I am talking about. Not some plastic figurehead that men can form to fit [i]their[/i] needs and desires, that god is an idol. Most people aren't comfortable with a God that they have to conform to, rather than one who conforms to them. It took me a while to realize this truth, as well as others. Revival has come to the Church, but now it's time to share that with the world.

-Justin

[Kanojo]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]FallOut's sister, I assume. Jesus came to set us free, but if there is no Satan, what then are we free from? If there is no judgement, what then is salvation?[/B][/QUOTE]

Kanojo already answered this question
Free from death!
Salvation from death!
Your false image of god cannot stand without satan
This is why you cannot comprehend what Kanojo says
Small children understand Kanojo!
What has this church revived?
Only keeps reviving image of god of death
Image is only held intact by giving power to satan
You have no salvation without your satan
You have no judgments without your satan
False image of god has no power without hell or death
When you can receive a God of eternal life
This will be your judgment day
This will be your salvation day
This will be the day God receives all glory
Not mans long and swelling speeches
Wesley is dead
Wigglesworth is dead
Could not revive themselves from dead
God could and did
Maybe your god is not capable of saving from death
Kanojo's God is

[wrist cutter]

Quick, men! She's speaking in tongues! Let's burn her at the stake!

Oh please. Like there was a real debate going on here that I just ruined.

[Guest cloricus]

Hey well it looks like I'm not part of this so called [i]covenant[/i], am I not good enough for you god?

[i]Leviticus 21[/i]
16And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 17"Speak to Aaron, saying: "No man of your descendants in succeeding generations, who has any defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God. 18For any man who has a defect shall not approach: [b]a man blind[/b] or lame, who has a marred face or any limb too long, 19a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, 20or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man who [b]has a defect in his eye[/b], or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch. 21No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect, shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the LORD. He has a defect.

Up yours god; helping the weak my arse.

[spoiler]Btw I guess I am a Christian and I'm just stirring the pot because I don't believe in this part (covenant) or that it just only applies to Jews and that the fundamental reason as stated in the first post is wrong (that every one is part of this) as I've show with my bible quote (I hate to quote the bible) also there are many other quotes in relation to it.[/spoiler]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]Hey well it looks like I'm not part of this so called [i]covenant[/i], am I not good enough for you god?

[i]Leviticus 21[/i]
16And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 17"Speak to Aaron, saying: "No man of your descendants in succeeding generations, who has any defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God. 18For any man who has a defect shall not approach: [b]a man blind[/b] or lame, who has a marred face or any limb too long, 19a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, 20or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man who [b]has a defect in his eye[/b], or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch. 21No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect, shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the LORD. He has a defect.

Up yours god; helping the weak my arse. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's all very well but the covenant you quoted there is between God and the people of Israel. Last time I checked, I wasn't an Israeli.

The important things about the [i]NEW[/i] covenant between Jesus and anyone who wants it is this:

Jesus lived a perfect life in relation to the old covenant,
We are in covenant with Jesus, and therefore share in all he has and all he has achieved,
Therefore we are judged as perfect even though we're not.

In the same way, to symbolise the trade of places, Jesus needed to bear the punishment for all our sins despite the fact that he was perfect.

It's a whole thing about grace. We sure as hell don't deserve to be judged as perfect, but by [i]grace[/i] (ie. a gift not earned nor deserved) we are anyway.

[Guest cloricus]

If some one is perfect then they are no longer human since you cannot have a perfect person because there are so many indifferences between every aspect of every thing to do with us which means that Jesus is no longer one of us and has no bearing on anything between you and others.
Also that the covenant is void since you do not believe yourself to be Jewish and it is not one of your societies traditions, on top of the fact that you are not a direct descendant of Jesus or any of his people. Who may I add believed Jesus was a cult leader and not viewed as perfect as a result of that to all those around him that were not brainwashed into his way of thinking which was vastly different to that of ?the law? (Gospel).

Oh and just while I'm in this tired state and this is making sense how can the son of god who is one in the same have a different opinion of the same subject since god is always what he is and will never change which I think it is safe to apply to what he "feels" about blind people?
(Yes I'm going to sleep now.)

[Justin]

If any of that made sense, I might be able to answer it. I'll answe what I can, though you will not hear it.

The covenant we're talking about is not the Jewish one of the Old Testament. It is the New Covenant that came into being after Jesus rose again. If you accept and submit to Christ, you will be saved, and your sins will be obliterated.

Jesus was perfect. He was not merely human. He was God in a human's body. He did this so that He could be the FINAL atonement for sin, and sin's power, Satan's power, and our power as humans was forever altered. He has bearing on our lives because He is our God. Thankfully, you're just a man, and you truly have no bearing on anyone's lives save those who choose to let you.

Jesus's opinions did not differ from God's--they were one and the same. Jesus's opinions differed from the religion-saturated Judaism of the age. This was how God meant for it to be, because if Jesus did not differ with them, they wouldn't have killed Him, and there wouldn't have been a final sacrifice.

Yes, the Sanhedron and did view Jesus as a cult leader, but there were literal thousands of self-proclaimed 'messiah's' waltzing around at the time, and they were not killed. Why did they kill Jesus then? He challenged their authority and they could not stem His favor with the people(except by lies), nor could they defeat Him in a debate of any kind.

It's sad that you think we're brainwashed...it's you who's been brainwashed, friend. But as I said, you can't see or hear it, so there's no use in going any further.

But I guess you'll accomplish in this thread what you're supposed to. You'll keep on trying to argue and it will be closed. Heh...

-Justin

[Guest cloricus]

Me that's being brainwashed... Funny I'm a Christian!

No I'm sorry I shouldn't have posted when I was so tired but I do have a valid point which you have attempted to debate but only thrown more weight on what I interpret it to be. Now none of the following argument works if you believe the bible was not the word of the lord.

If Leviticus says "And the LORD said" for most of it's laws and other parts of the OT use this to back up points that are opposite to what Jesus says, some thing different like "be kind to every one", "be nice to those who are weak" and they are both god; (Lord and Jesus = God) one in the same, how can a god who proclaimed "I am what I am" change it's opinion? It seems that one half of the bible is taking a stance on the other side and bidding for which one is right in god's eyes.

It is things like this that force me through common sense to dismiss most of the bible and see it for what it really is, what ever you want to make of it. Though Justin I am really interested in what you think of the above argument, if you need me to clarify I can but I don't have enough time now. :D

[TheShinje]

jesus did do away with most of the laws in the Old testament, but those were ridiculous laws made up by the pharisees and teachers of the religious law.

The fundamental laws have never changed. The ten commandments are still in full force today by most of the worlds professing Christian populous and things Jesus taught, such as love you enemies as you have been loved, are in the old testament too.

God never changes yes, Jesus just allowed us to see God's intention more clearly, and to be the final sacrifice for sin and to break that power it had on us. No longer do we have to slaughter an animal when we do wrong, I'm sure the animals think it's a good deal too.

[Guest cloricus]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shinji Ikari [/i]
[B]jesus did do away with most of the laws in the Old testament, but those were ridiculous laws made up by the pharisees and teachers of the religious law.[/B][/QUOTE]

What I said - [i]Now none of the following argument works if you believe the bible was not the word of the lord.[/i]

Yes I know for example leviticus was around to give the levite tribe a way to keep them selves "pure" and was never meant to be used in every day life for others but of course this isn't true in the eyes of a fundamentalist Christian since it is "The LORDs word." Though things like this aren?t just in leviticus they are scattered all through the OT, sorry I don't have references.

Besides it is the word of god as is STATED in the OT how can Jesus then say his father is wrong if god never changes while Jesus is the same thing and the bible is 100% correct as the lords word?

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]Yes I know for example leviticus was around to give the levite tribe a way to keep them selves "pure" and was never meant to be used in every day life for others but of course this isn't true in the eyes of a fundamentalist Christian since it is "The LORDs word." Though things like this aren?t just in leviticus they are scattered all through the OT, sorry I don't have references.[/B][/QUOTE]

One of the important things to consider is God's will. God's will is usually to redeem people. God may apparently have something against blind people- why do think Jesus went around healing the blind?

The blind were seen as unclean- as demonstrated in the passage you gave- so people never went near them. One of the important things to note is that God is a redeemer, rather than just a condemner.

His will is not for people to be unclean in the same way that most Christians I know around here don't believe it to be God's will for us to be in debt, or in illness. The question is- do we as followers of God have enough faith to ask for redemption from these things, and expect to recieve it?

In the case of most traditional churches, the answer is no, so it rarely happens, but in the case of the more spirit-filled churches, people are learning more of the power they actually have, and are having more faith to ask for things and recieve them.

In the passage you quoted, the blind, the lame, those with short limbs etc were seen as unclean. Jesus healed a number of people who were blind, lame, and a man with a shrivelled hand. Jesus isn't going against what God said, but he's redeeming people from the state which the Torah describes as "unclean" to the state it describes as "clean".

The problem the Pharisees had was that they looked at people like this and saw their uncleanliness. Jesus looked at them and saw that they weren't the way God wanted them to be, and so healed them. God didn't want them to be that way, not out of hatred, but out of love for them and a wish for them to be the best that they could be. His will was to heal them- Jesus recognised that, the pharisees didn't.

[Genkai]

Hmm... Well, I'll make this a short post.

I feel no need to make a covenant with others, as I already am in one with Jesus. When I raise my hand in greeting, there is no scar. In the way I act, the way I communicate towards others, I hope that others will see that I am in covenant with Jesus. Not by a self-inflicted scar

[Guest cloricus]

Dan L I accept that explanation thanks. :D
Though I am a bit unsure about -
[quote]The question is- do we as followers of God have enough faith to ask for redemption from these things, and expect to receive it?[/quote]
Are you saying that people with the above defects have to ask god for forgiveness for them? That would seem rather stupid because "God created us" so why would he want us to say sorry for being what we are?

Also although I accept the above statement but as a [i]very[/i] liberal Christian I still do not believe in the Covenant or that it applies to any one apart from the Jews. (We all have to have points that we don't move on...)

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]Dan L I accept that explanation thanks. :D
Though I am a bit unsure about -

Are you saying that people with the above defects have to ask god for forgiveness for them? That would seem rather stupid because "God created us" so why would he want us to say sorry for being what we are?

Also although I accept the above statement but as a [i]very[/i] liberal Christian I still do not believe in the Covenant or that it applies to any one apart from the Jews. (We all have to have points that we don't move on...) [/B][/QUOTE]

...

I just wrote a whole long post about that first question. Then pressed the escape button and observed in horror as it disappeared.

Essentially it boiled down to this-

Regardless of whether or not you believe that Adam ate an actual apple in an actual garden, the Bible is pretty clear that humanity was created perfect, but has fallen, and is falling. Because of that, the world as a whole is also falling. Defects crept in through the fact that we have fallen from the will of God, and the image of God, and thus we've fallen from both spiritual and physical perfection.

Though we were created in God's image, and God's image is still in us, we are also still falling, which is why there are so many things in us, which aren't God's will for us. However, it's always God's intention to redeem us back into his will, whether that's in terms of things we do, or simply things he didn't intend for us.

....eh..

I don't have the energy or the memory to go into the same detail (and make the same points) as last time I typed this out. Hopefully that explains my point sufficiently.

[Ravenstorture]

[color=darkgreen][font=gothic]I didn't even bother reading the last page, I really can't take another "Cloricus vs. the World" spiel this week.

Remind me again, Cloricus, what justification you have for calling yourself a Christian?

And now onto the reason why I'm posting.
I'm heathen, born again pagan, racist against christians and a supporter of the church of Satan (although not the time nor grace to be a follower). Listening to evangelists make me angry and violent. Reading the bible makes me sick. Sitting in a room with one thousand people chanting praise mindlessly makes me scared for humanity. Hearing about the devout faith of people like George Bush doesn't surprise me - I know that a majority of Christians know the commandments off by heart and don't do a damned thing to show it. Anti-abortionists, the crusades, the inquisition, I hate it I hate it I hate it. And I made it well known the other day, in the counsellor's office. I walked in there after First Friday mass and I grabbed the crusifix on the wall and I threw it on the wall and I jumped on it.

(At this point in time you gentle people ask why I am posting this here. You're the first to know, and you're the ones I want to hear it. Cloricus, I don't want you to talk to me about this, ever.)

It makes me sick that the symbol of this religion is a crucified man. One of the most beautiful, kind, loving men in known history, and 9/10 places I see him these days he's either starving, bleeding, nailed to a stick, or standing there with a hole in his chest, holding out his bleeding heart to the world.

Anyway. To the point. I've basically establised that I don't like the christian/catholic church, and faith. You're the perfect audience to ask this burning question:

What is your definition of Christianity?

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