Changing of Sexes. [Maturity should be must]

[Queen Asuka]

[quote][i]Originally posted by KnightoftheRose[/i]
[b]My opinion on this subject is that if someone wants to spend the money on something like this, which is quite a lot I assume, let them. They're making somebody really rich and they're getting what they think they want, so truthfully I don't see anything wrong with it. [/b][/quote]

[color=hotpink][size=1]So you're saying it's okay, as long as you get what you want? That's almost like saying "Well, me buying these drugs is making someone rich, and I'm getting what I want, so it should be okay." That is the most selfish thing I have ever heard.

And I think that getting a sex change is very selfish. Okay, so I'm sure that someone will throttle me for this opinion, but really, if you weren't so focused on yourself all the time, maybe you wouldn't have the problem of feeling traumatized because supposedly you are "trapped" in the wrong gender's body.

For one thing, just getting a penis isn't going to make you a male, or vice versa. It's just going to make you a female with a PENIS! But you're still female! And for a male, you're just going to be a man with with VAGINA! And doesn't that just sound WRONG?

It doesn't matter how much you want to be the other gender, it can never really happy. Having these operations is just giving you the foolish illusion that you're something that you're not.

I'm with wrist cutter. Therapy is definiately a must here, because something is seriously wrong psychologically.[/color][/size]

[Justin]

Eh, being who I am, I have to say "Be happy with what you have." It's amazing the "problems" that would disapear if some of westernized cultures were suddenly shoved into a more third world enviroment, I think.

I'm going to jump off of wrist cutter's post a little: I really think the whole idea of someone being born into the wrong body is more of a tick than anything. An obsessive/compulsive annoyance that becomes a consuming problem. I agree that they should seek therapy before going thorugh a sex change. Actually, I'd suggest that they seek the face of God, but most won't like what they find when they find it.

Is it a sin? Beats me. I could argue 'yea' and 'nay' for that question. This is how I see it: God loves you. That is the bottom line. No one is perfect, nor can anyone obtain perfection here on earth. He's not concerned with your perfection, He's concerned with your [i]direction[/i]. God loves you [i]exactly[/i] as He made you, and when you accept Him for who he is, He begins moving you in the direction His perfect plan will take you.

Summary: God loves the way you are. Any changes that need to be made will be made by Him when you submit to Him.

Is it a sin? I still can't say. But(from a spiritual stance) I wouldn't advise anyone to go through it at all.

From a non-spiritual stance, I'd advise anyone to seek counseling first.

-Justin

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]Summary: God loves the way you are. Any changes that need to be made will be made by Him when you submit to Him.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=hotpink][size=1]That statement right there is why people hate religion and think it's a cult. Submission, huh?[/color][/size]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]So you're saying it's okay, as long as you get what you want? That's almost like saying "Well, me buying these drugs is making someone rich, and I'm getting what I want, so it should be okay." That is the most selfish thing I have ever heard.

And I think that getting a sex change is very selfish. Okay, so I'm sure that someone will throttle me for this opinion, but really, if you weren't so focused on yourself all the time, maybe you wouldn't have the problem of feeling traumatized because supposedly you are "trapped" in the wrong gender's body.

[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I think that your first point is not really valid here, Tori. You can't compare drugs to sex changes in any way, shape or form. If you buy drugs, you are not only hurting yourself, but you're keeping the drug supplier in business. There are so many other aspects involved with that.

A sex change is likely something that won't actually kill you or proliferate some kind of suffering to others. I see sex changes as a personal decision -- no different to plastic surgery. You might even say that a sex change is simply a very complex plastic surgery.

If I'm going to attack people for changing their gender, I'm also going to have to start attacking people for getting facelifts or liposuction. I mean, what someone else does to their body doesn't affect me...if they feel more comfortable as the opposite gender, so be it. It's selfish of [i]me[/i] to want everyone to do what I feel comfortable with.

A sex change might be selfish...but again, it's easy to say these things when you're not faced with a difficult psychological issue -- one that can't be solved or treated. This is already established. For some people, sex changes seem to work (as far as solving their identity issues) and for others, they don't. Either way, it's none of my business...it's really nobody's business but the person involved.[/color]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]That statement right there is why people hate religion and think it's a cult. Submission, huh?[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] Exactly.

Religion itself is so biased, and shows you yet more segregation which leads to further stereotypical things.

This is one of the higher reasons why I totally loathe organized religion.[/size]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink][font=arial]
Wow, lots of really good points.

I have to agree the most with James though. It's a personal choice, it's not my business. I've never felt the need to be a man, but I know that that must cause such horrible confusion and insanity inside your mind, I can't even begin to imagine. So how can I, or anyone else, judge them, having not faced their pain? I can't, and it's not my place to.

It's confusing enough trying to figure out who you are, and sorting through all of life's emotions, let alone not wanting to be the gender that you were born. So if changing your gender really makes you happy, then do it. But, like any major descion, I'd advise someone to take an honest look at what they really want. Make sure you're not just deluding yourself into thinking it would make you happy, when it's something deeper, something else that you're truly searching for.

As for religion, it's a non-issue for me. I gave up on God and religion and all the things he says are wrong and right a long time ago. However, it would be arrogant and stupid of me to act like it's not an issue for other people. But that only increases my sympathy for those who want to change their genders. Imagine feeling something that your entire life you've been told is wrong. Like you were born sinning. Somewhat similar to homosexuality. Anyway, waiting to find 'love in God' is often a pointless and painful wild goose chase. Revel in the love from other people, and if you feel that it would easier to love them back as something else, then go for it.

That's my 2 cents. ^-~

-Karma
[/font][/color]

[Corey]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]That is the most selfish thing I have ever heard.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

What you see as selfish I see as a personal opinion. You have a right to yours aswell, but we disagree. So...
If someone feels they are in the wrong body they have two choices. Live with it or don't live with it. If they choose to live with it then, to themselves, they are living a lie. If they choose not to live with it there are a lot of options. Therapy being one of them. A sexchange being another.

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]I think that your first point is not really valid here, Tori. You can't compare drugs to sex changes in any way, shape or form. If you buy drugs, you are not only hurting yourself, but you're keeping the drug supplier in business. There are so many other aspects involved with that.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=hotpink][size=1]*Laughs* I just knew someone would point that out. It was a pretty bad point of comparison, I know, but just saying that it's okay because it's what they want just sounds ludicrous to me. I don't know. I am very hardbent on the opinion that I've formulated about this whole issue. I just think that people shouldn't alter their body in any sort of way. It's one thing to lose weight, change something about you in a normal way...

But to get a liposuction because you're fat or a nose job because you don't like the one you have is just so ODD to me. Technology has made so many things possible and it's disgusting. And what's even more disgusting is when people get BOOB JOBS! I'm sorry, but I woman should feel beautiful with the body she has been blessed with, no matter what size chest she has.

Okay, sorry I went off on a tangent there, but we are talking about altering the body. At least boob jobs aren't permanent.[/color][/size]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1] I'm sorry, but I woman should feel beautiful with the body she has been blessed with, no matter what size chest she has.
[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink][font=arial]
I have to disagree with you here Asuka. Beauty may not matter in cases of love and friendship, but there *is* a line between beautiful and ugly. True, a woman shouldn't lose self-confidence over her looks, but she shoudln't delude herself into thinking she's prettier than she really is. She should accept her looks and feel confident about the person she is on the inside, and not base them on how she looks on the outside.

Changing genders isn't nessicarly a matter of beauty. It's about feeling comfortable with who you are. Yes, on some levels they are the same, but a gender change is a lot more than say, chest enhancment. That's just to make a woman feel better about herself and how she looks. A gender change goes a lot deeper than that, and the reasons are far more complex.
It changes who the person really is, and how the go about their life from then on far more than a lighter 'cosmetic surgery' would.

Okay. I hope that made sense. ^^;;

-Karma
[/font][/color]

[KittyLynn]

[COLOR=dodgerblue] [SIZE=1] I think changing your sex, is horribly disgusting, but the person doing feels its right. I think that we should try and accept it, and try not to throw-up.

As I read in my Teen People magazine, this girl even took testosterone shots, to make her build more manly. She got many operations to stop her menstruating cycles and even got something to take away her breasts.

I actually have to admit that the people who do this are very brave, especially with the thought the public dilemna and what they'll think.

How do you tell your parents this!? "Hi mom, I think I was born into a girl's body, but I feel I'm supposed to be a guy." How does a parent react?

Transgenders, once they "form" into something their not..Can they even be called a sex? So they have a sexual preference? Are they gay/bi/straight? Which washroom would you use?

-Kitty[/SIZE] [/COLOR]

[Justin]

Actually, I wouldn't call true submission a form of religion. Submission to God(here I go again) is the formation of the greatest one-on-one relatioship you can ever have.

Submission to what people tell you to do--that is religion.

But this discussion isn't about what is and isn't religion or whatever. It's about the correctness of a gender change, isn't it? Forgive me for straying.

As I've stated(Scratch that, I can't go on with this statement this time.)--God created you to be with Him in accordance with His will. If you want to know what is and isn't sin, "seek and you will find." I have already presented the Gospel to this place many times, including once in this thread, you'll accept it or you won't. "Seek and you will find."

Non-spiritually? If I weren't a follower of Christ, I'd do whatever. There is no right or wrong without God...lol, there is nothing without God...so whatever you decide to do is your business. It's not my job to tell non-Christians what they should and should not do--my only obligation to them is presenting the News and loving them as God loves them.

With that, I wash my hands of this topic.

-Justin

[KarmaOfChaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]

Non-spiritually? If I weren't a follower of Christ, I'd do whatever. There is no right or wrong without God...lol, there is nothing without God...

-Justin [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=deeppink][font=arial]
So you're saying our humanity, our sense of morals and ethics counts for nothing? Just because you don't believe in God or the Bible doesn't mean you don't have morals, or that you aren't a decent person. I'm sorry if I'm being blunt or rude, but saying something like this really shows how superior some Christians think they are because of they're religion and faith. I find this particularily annoying.

Oh, but I really am getting off topic here. So sorry. I just felt an incessant need to respond to that. I hope I'm not too out of line here. ^^;;

-Karma
[/font][/color]

[scrmngfangrl]

the whole thing is pretty retarded to me. and, as many differences as there are between men an women, more alike than different. and why change? you could do everything as if you were that gender, the only thing holding them back are those freakin stereotypes man!!! the sexism!!! that crap makes me angry. most of the diff prob come from all the sexist crap we grow up with an force upon the children so molds them into that most of the time. why the heck cant guys where dress and lipstick and be a fashion designer without being gay? cause those are all feminine crap that only women are supposed to do. did you know pink was origonally the boy colour while blue was the girl? crap, now im mad. soryy if this has been said before, i haven't read more than the first page.

to: K of C: whose to say what is beautiful and what isn't? ((another pissy topic of mine ^^;))

[Mitch]

[size=1] There is right and wrong without god...there is something without God.

This is what I say.

It's fine Justin; you are merely stating your opinion. I don't find it gets too much into me. You don't sound like a preacher or sermoner, but more like a lover's lover.

My views on God should be well known by now. I label myself as an apatheist--I do not care if there is not a God, and I don't care if there is a God. Either way I will not worship He Who Shall Not Be Named, and either way I shall hope that in the end, when I die, that I am left to the beauty of nothing, and I will not have to think or be anything any longer but a memory.

As I've said, I don't want heaven. I see it as a prison, as holy as it might be.

I feel blasphemous to God. I feel that I wouldn't like him.

Eh...this is all beside the point of this thread. We've already gone and done through this, Justin, heh.

I actually would rather there not be organized religion. Community has never, ever appealed to me. I believe religion is a very personal matter, and as such, it should not be ingrained into society's ribs, allowing and holding its heart to beat. I rather think one should worship whatsoever they want to on their own rather than religion be such a big matter as it seems to be.

Ah well. Back on topic.

As technology prevails, it will be pretty possible to become as female-looking or as male-looking as you want, no matter the barriers.

Are you prepared for this day? A day when surgeons can fully tranform a molded male or female, with fully functional sexual parts, a fully functional voice.

I'd see that in the future...there shall even be things that goes as far as to tinkering with one's mind, and making it more like a male's or more like a female's. Even ways to alter the body to naturally force the body to supply its own ways of making more estrogen than is needed or more testosterone--thereby making a male more feminine, or a female more masculine.

Trying to get back on topic lol.[/size]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink][font=arial]
Heh, yea, sorry Mitch. Back to the topic.

Outer apperance I'm sure they'll be able to get perfect within the future, possibly within the near future. But going into people's minds and altering how they work? I'd say we're a very far cry from that...besides I don't think, even if I wanted my gender changed, that I would allow them to mess with my mind. Your mind is your sanctuary, is it not? But I guess it could also be a prison...a gendered prison?

I suppose if you were being driven insane with your conflicting thoughts about what gender you were, you'd want someone to go in and straighten it out. Although if you could do that...imagine the possiblities for people with [i]any[/i] kind of mental disorder.

Pretty amazing stuff. But, like I said, we're a very far cry from something like that. I'd like to see them try though. ^-~

-Karma
[/font][/color]

[Corey]

They have tried.
It's called brainwashing.

[KarmaOfChaos]

[font=arial][color=deeppink]
Touche. But I mean something a little less harsh. Where you're not wiped of your memories. They just alter your thought patterns somewhat, so that the way you process things is different, not erased. And you still retain you basic makeup. And, like I said before, it's probably going to be awhile before they can achieve something like that.

And since I just [i]know[/i] someone's going to say drugs, or antidepressants, I'll settle that too. Yes, medicine alters your thought patterns, and manipulates the chemicals in your brain. But it's only temporary. Go off the drug, and it all comes back. Sometimes even worse, if the person's body has become dependent on the drug. I've seen people not take their antidepressants for a month or so after being on it ten years...it's quite a horrible experience.

If you could make a permenant change, without extreme sideffects, then you would really have something. If only.

-Karma
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[Charles]

People have the right to be happy. It's that simple and it's what this entire discussion boils down to. No matter what I believe or anyone else believes, the subject of one's body is intimate and unquestionably personal.

If an [adult] individual is suffering from gender identity dysphoria and they feel the need to alter their body so they can fully express themselves--then so be it. That decision isn't hurting me regardless of whether or not I support it. Because, I?m willing to entertain how terrifying it must be to feel trapped within one?s own body.

Personally, I feel that we're all free to be who we want to be as long as we're true to ourselves on the inside. The genuine self cannot be found through outter appearance or gender; it's something more than superficiality. Something the human eye can't see. The freedom to choose who we really are and what we really want to be is already there. If someone convinces themselves that an operation is needed for them realize their true identity, they could be potentially making a critical mistake. People need to learn to love themselves a little. lol

With that being said, I'm not going to sit here and deny someone's dream or pursuit of happiness. Life is meant to be lived to the fullest and folks who undergo gender altering surgery most certainly suffer enough intolerance and prejudice without me sitting here on a message board persecuting them for their personal choices.

[Arasoi]

[color=royal blue]I wish to add my thoughts to this thread.

When I was younger, I used to want to be a girl. I would always act like I thought girls would act, and I'd occasionally dress up as a girl. Whenever I had an opportunity to pretend to be a female character in a game I was playing, I would. Now, I don't dress up as a girl anymore. I still act feminine to a degree, though.

I thought about whether or not to get a sex change when I get older, and I've decided that I'm not going to. For the first part, I don't really like the idea of it. I don't want to be a girl if I can't be a girl naturally, I don't think it would feel right to me.

But, it probably does feel right for some people. I used to like the idea of it, but now I don't. However, some people probably do still want to get a sex change when they get older. I know that if I still felt like I wanted to be a girl, then it would torture me. If someone feels that he or she wants to get a sex change, I have no problem with it. I know I used to want one as well, and I can sympathize with and support anyone who wants a sex change.[/color]

[Guest The Bouncer]

Here's how i see it. If you want to feel like nother sex the do this. its much less painful and costly.

Women who wnat to be me get yourself a strap-on dildo.. that way you get the illusion and feeling that you have a dick. they make them in the shape of a penis and the ycome in all sizes so you can get whateva you want. Women can just get a boy haircut that simple.

Men who want to be women go get yourslef a pocket *****. They have the strap on ones that feel real so you can finger yourslef or whateva. They have thong that are made for men too. You can get some weave to make you have long haor or if you want short you can cut it all off.

So thats and easy and cheap way to change sex or you can do it the other way......

[Gentle]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Bouncer [/i]
[B]Here's how i see it. If you want to feel like nother sex the do this. its much less painful and costly.

Women who wnat to be me get yourself a strap-on dildo.. that way you get the illusion and feeling that you have a dick. they make them in the shape of a penis and the ycome in all sizes so you can get whateva you want. Women can just get a boy haircut that simple.[/B][/QUOTE]

Dude, that's just sick. I think someone would just go through with the surgery. Plus, women still have breast.

[B][QUOTE]Men who want to be women go get yourslef a pocket *****. They have the strap on ones that feel real so you can finger yourslef or whateva. They have thong that are made for men too. You can get some weave to make you have long haor or if you want short you can cut it all off.[/B][/QUOTE]

O_O;;Again, I think someone would just go through with the surgery. I don't think it'd be very comfortable to have things strapped onto you all the time and you would still technically be the same.

[B][QUOTE]So thats and easy and cheap way to change sex or you can do it the other way...... [/B][/QUOTE]

The other way. That's not changing sex. That's just changing your hairstyle and strapping things onto your body. Their partners would probably happen to notice this too.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gentle [/i]
[B]Dude, that's just sick. I think someone would just go through with the surgery.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, a strap-on would just be sick. It's much better to just transform your vagina into a penis.

[XeEmO]

I think it's selfish to not put yourself in their shoes, and not be open to what other people want. If I were in a situation where I thought I was trapped in the wrong body, and wanted a sex change, I would be very offended by some of the comments in this thread.

To go out and say that something someone did is disgusting, without even fully understanding it, shows how narrow-minded you are. Another example of this would be most people who don't like homosexuals.

I obviously don't have a problem with it. Most of the people who get these sex changes live as the opposite sex for a long time before they get the change. This will help them decide if they really want to go through with the change or not.

[vegeta rocker]

Seems a little beyond me why anyone would even think about it. Honestly, don't people have enough trouble with identity already? If you are a guy who wants to become a girl what if you change your mind?

The fact this has been described as a fad is even weirder.

Do what makes you happy.