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Let's talk about ....., baby... (Mature Themes)


Artemis
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Alright, I already sent a PM to James asking if I could talk about this. That was nearly a week ago. I've decided he doesn't plan on answering. So here it is... Hells Fire and I were having a private discussion on premarital (extramarital) sex. He doesn't see a problem with it. However, I see many:
1. Moral issues. It's just plain wrong. I know it sounds out-dated, but sex is for marriage only. It's not bad, just special.
2. Emotional side effects. They aren't as strong for guys, but intercourse creates an emotional bond between people. Girls (in general) feel very attached to guys after the act. Guys (again, in general) are less attached afterwards, so a conflict often arises. The girls often feel used or unimportant. Both may feel guilt.
3. Physical side effects. Let me tell you up front, there are a lot of STDs that the media doesn't broadcast very well, if at all. This is mostly because, for a great deal of them, abstinence is the only protection. Not everything is stopped by condoms. Many of the diseases can cause infertility or cancer. (Girls, by the way we're set up, we're more vulnerable to potentially dangerous diseases.) Here's a fun fact for you: What's the common STD among Americans today? HIV? Nope. It's HPV Human Papiloma (sp?) Virus. Men can carry it, but it doesn't affect them. By the way, high school physicals (sports physicals) will most likely not include a test for this disease. It's far too expensive to put on a general health exam.
4. Pregnancy. The condoms and birth control don't always work. Abortion (ignoring the fact that it kills babies) causes severe emotional problems for the mother. Raising a child as a single parent (particularly while still in school), is extremely difficult and deprives children of a loving 2 parent family. (Not to say that they can't become wonderful people in a single parent home, just that they're more likely to have psychological or emotional disorders.) Adoption, though the best choice, is the rarest chosen. It's difficult giving up a child despite the fact that it's for his/her good.
All in all, I think the consquences are enough to convince anyone (even if they don't go for the moral argument) that abstinence is a better choice. It's like drinking and drugs: it hurts people, and it's not worth it.
Anyway, let me know what you people think. Understand that I'm not trying to insult anyone for having extramarital sex. I just think people should know a bit more about what their gettin' into beforehand.
~Artemis~
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B]I just think people should know a bit more about what their gettin' into beforehand. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]That's a very valid point, and probably something that only a small majority of people who have premarital sex [i]do[/i] think about.

Ok, knowing that I am one of the few people here who does have sex....yes. I should tread lightly because I don't want to end up getting worked up over ignorant opinions by people many years my junior.

However, my decision to have premarital sex was exceptionally special for me. My boyfriend of 1+ year and I both shared in our first experience with each other, and it was amazing. There's something extremely special [ignore the overuse of the word] about knowing that we waited for each other, despite having had past [and sometimes serious] relationships. It also helps to know that we're dedicated to each other, and that there's the unspoken bond that makes us both best friends.

Sex, to me, is more than a sexual act. It's a loving thing, it makes both of us feel like we share something with each other and no one else gets to have that part of us. It's reserved for us, and only us, that's why it's so beautiful.

I think that the reservations that the United States holds about sex border on ridiculous. It bothers me that it is stereotyped as a shameful act when instead it can be a wonderful thing that two people share. It's sad that people hold bias against others who engage in premarital sex, rather than accepting it and understanding that it is their choice. I don't like people who preach to me about, that bugs me more than anything.

Ok, that's what I have to say for now. I'm sure more will come with later replies.[/color]
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[color=green]I am as well guilty. I used to be one of those non-thinkers, but it is not the way I want to remember my life...I now have a loving, caring boyfriend who I have been with for 4 years now. We were together for almost a year before we moved to any sort of sexual level in our relationship.

Adding that degree to a relationship will make or break it, really. This may sound like I am exaggerating, but I don't think so. It changes everything.

I am not so militant to say wait until you're married, but I will say to wait until you are with someone you love. Not someone you think you may care about, but someone you love.

I am an opinionated person, but I try to avoid judgement, but, in my opinion, It's not ok to be a player, if for no other reason than you will end up as a vending machine of VD. I am not so opposed to premarital sex as I am to promiscuity (sp)[/color]
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As a male, the idea of sex always sounds rather appealing to me. Yet, all these points you make have all gone through my mind often. I try to remind myself of these... sex may feel great, but there are so many risks involved. It just isn't worth it.

But like everyone else I'm only human, and I do stupid things. Luckily I've never had an opportunity to have sex. Only in recent months have I felt confident that I would be able to turn down sex, if such a situation ever arose (funny, it never has -_-). There are just so many risks involved that I'd rather not take.
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I appreciate that this is mature conversation. I understand the rationalization when you guys have a monogamous (sp?) relationship. I just hope that you're 100% sure that your partner was virgin (for the STD issue.) What it'll get down to then is a moral issue. Like BabyGirl said, sex is turned into something ugly and dirty by the media. Sex isn't bad. It's beautiful in the proper setting. I'm glad that both of you have limits on your sexual activity. One thing that I might mention is that couples who've had pre-marital sex have a higher divorce rate, but that includes people who had sex before having it with their spouses. (This is assuming you guys are even considering marriage, which I'd like to think that you are.) :)
And, Molleta, if you get married in a Catholic church, the priest may ask you guys to live apart/abstain for awhile. If your faith means anything to you, please concede to that. I wouldn't want to see you leave the church over this. :(
Wrist Cutter, I'm proud of you. When I mentioned this to HellsFire, he didn't understand how I could go w/o sex. (like ppl die w/o it or something! :rolleyes: ) I completely understand that it's more difficult for guys. They have more of an urge towards it. Girls are looking more for emotional intimacy.
Anyway, thanks again for being mature.
~art~
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I see this as being only the business of the two people involved. I don't think anyone e;se's opinions should affect their judgement. But back to the matter...

Just because it is something special, does not mean that you have to wait for it until marriage. For one they may leave you if you suck at sex [lol. Couldn't resist]. for the other, most people will have a few relationships before they are married. They may think they are going to marry a person. they may both be totally in love with each other. I don't see a problem there. Pre-marital sex is something that should bring [sensible and loving] people closer together.

STD's. What can you do? be careful. The risk isn't too common, and there are cures for this stuff. Just don't sleep around heaps...

Babies: Use the pill. Use condoms. Use IUD's. Use spermicide. Whatever. Generally, condoms and pills. This should prevent most STD's and also greatly, [i]greatly[/i] reduce the likelihood of a foetus forming. If that fails, then they have a pill that can be taken within 72 hours to abort, but it damages your system.

Overall, unless you are seriously worried about religion, or really want to save yourself for your marriage partner, then there isn't really a problem. I don't see the problem. if both parties wish to do it, and have feelings for one another, then there is no obstacle.

Is there?

I am 14, but this is my take on things.

So.... Yeah.
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[color=#707875]I don't know why marriage should even be a defining or deciding factor. To me, it seems like something very arbitrary.

I mean, you could marry once and then marry twice more...and thus be having sex with more than one person in your life.

I don't think the argument should be about sex before or after marriage; it should be about careless sex.

I'm not married, yet I'm sexually active with my partner -- the same partner that I've had for four years now. So I'm not promiscuous...and I'm very aware and up-to-date on medical issues. So, obviously, I'm very careful as well.

But I'm in a monogamous relationship. So, I'm aware of what's involved.

But again...I guess that for me, the same message is always clear. What I choose to do in my own sex life is nobody else's business -- if somebody else wants to either wait for marriage or avoid sex altogether, that's completely fine by me. It's their choice.

In the same way, I'm not going to attack people who are sexually promiscuous. What right do I have to determine how they should live their life? People should be aware of the risks. I don't need to lecture them on that kind of thing. People are going to make mistakes regardless of my input.[/color]
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Guest cloricus
Marriage I don't believe has any relevance with sex these days, at least in the area's I've been in. At my school many of the 180 students in my grade have sex on a regular basis and no one sees anything morally wrong with it or stands up in front of the grade and says ?stop; god says this is wrong?, even though it's a Christian school. The only real worry any one seems to have are the risks involved but really once you are an adult (or over 16) it only involves a trip to your local GP to have tests done and be cleared or be treated for any STD's that you may have which in most cases is simple. There are rather open campaigns around to make young people aware of these dangers and I'm sure most people take note of it and people who don?t are being stupid on their own part and their partners. Plus with the pill and many other "over the counter" contraceptives that angle really doesn't seem to come into it any more.

On the other hand in the lower class area's I've been to, I don't mean to generalise but, students in high school seem to have little regard for this and it kind of reminds me of rabbits which results in there being large proportion of young pregnancies. I'm not sure if there is some sort relation but I think these areas should be targeted a touch more than middle and upper class schools... I know it?s an extremely rude thing to say but having been in areas like it (meaning extremely poor area?s where there is nothing for young people to do) and seeing what happens from a teenager point of view it?s my honest opinion.
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Sorry, to clarify the marriage thing, I'm assuming, "til death do us part." (conservative Catholic here) I'm not trying to condemn people for having sexual relations. The purpose of marriage, in this sense, is to publicly announce your bond w/ that person [I]for life[/I]. Sex creates such a strong bond that, whether you realize it or not, will last forever. I would like the reassurance of marriage that the man I love has vowed to stay with me before I engage in an activity that will bond us so closely.
However, I can see where a lot of people don't hold the same ideals. I guess I feel, again, that people should be aware of the bond they're creating when they engage in the activity.
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[color=darkgreen][font=gothic]I publicly announced my bond with my person before I was allowed to get married. Does that count?

I've been premaritally sexually active for a year and a half, and not targetting anyone in particular, I find getting right up the catholic church's nose is rather fun. I regularly attend an institute of that particular church, and although finding a way to publicly announce my sexual activty to all brothers and priests I come across, I do enjoy staring blankly at people when they talk about abstaining until marriage. "A con...what?" is also a good reply to the lectures I get on contraception.

On the contrary, I would never have lost my virginity to a strange guy a few months into the relationship if I wasn't sure of it. I'm a smart girl, and my mother brought me up well. I've only taken one or two mild risks with pregnancy and dropped the habit, and I'm relatively uneasy about having sex with someone with syphalis.

Does that count as being sensible?

Recent studies show that Australian teens being the most sexually active for that age, and are the youngest in the world to regularly indulge.

After all this talk about morals, I'd like to remind everyone that I don't believe in right and wrong. I have my own set of morals, based on the precedent that they will be the most likely to bring harmony to me and others if I follow them. That said, I often find inner peace in insulting others and I am seventeen and enjoy meaningless sex with the man I love. I'm young, and when I get older, it will be harder to have fun as the responsibilities increase. So I'm going to have a lot of sex now, even if we're fighting, even if we're not technically going out. I will make the most of my life, and I would rather regret things I've done than things I haven't.

I understand that people would think marriage is the safest domain for sex, but we invented marriage, and we didn't invent sex. Sex is a biological normalcy, marriage is anything but. It might work for a stable society, but it's obvious that it's not natural.

I'm going to contradict myself here - I happen to live in a society. I really hate that, but it's fact. So I'm going to expect my b/f to remain monogamous, or if he's not going to, inform me beforehand, and I'm going to marry him. But I reject the concept of a) catholocism, b) marriage and c) organised society.

[/color][/font]
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[color=royalblue]That thing one of you said about making and breaking? It's true. So true, it really hurts. As some of you know, I just got out of an extremely destructive relationship with someone I thought loved me. Well, haha, I was wrong. He was desperate for love, and when the oppertunity to have sex with me arose, he took the chance. And after reality finally hit me, I started to wonder what would happen if I got pregnant? This worried me, that and the fact that my parents were asking questions about my personal life, and the way my body was changing.

Of course, I told my parents everything, curse me for being a completely honest person, and my boyfriend couldn't hack it. I couldn't stand being around him when I thought about what he had pressured me into doing, so we broke up. He begged me to take him back, even used the sex we had had as an exucse. I was firm, he relented, and cursed me before going away. And now, even though I'm not pregnant, I can't help but imagine what it would've been like if we had not slept together. Recently, he confessed that the only reason he slept with me was to get me back, as he saw me drifting from him. It hurt. Really it did.

So yes. In conclusion, girls, screen your guys, get out of the relationship before it gets out of hand. Know what you're doing, and for god's sake, don't let them pressure you into sex.[/color]
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B]
1. Moral issues. It's just plain wrong. I know it sounds out-dated, but sex is for marriage only. It's not bad, just special.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] I'd have to disagree with this one. Sex is not for marriage only. This is just another stupid intervention created by religious zealots.

I agree with most of your other responses. But as I see it, sex is not [i]that[/i] bad. It is a nature; it is what allows a race to survive. It is one of the biggest drives put into us as humans. And to ignore it is to not be what you are. It is not to be who you are.

I can understand not just jumping into sex. This I agree with. One shouldn't just have sex to have sex. There has to be [i]something[/i] there--something that has been there for a long, long time. As in Raiha's relationship, I believe it wasn't a good move on both their parts. First off she did not use a condom or any type of contraceptive. That is [i]extremely[/i] foolish. The things are readily available, use them.

As I said, marriage is not for everyone. Saying that sex is for marriage is like saying that God is for church. It isn't; and it just doesn't work. If were weren't civilized enough, there wouldn't [i]even[/i] be a thing such as marriage. We'd just give into our desires, and probably rape things at times.

So I don't think premarital sex is wrong [i]at all[/i]. As long as the party doing the act has explicit education, uses a condom/contraceptive, and has something that is worth throwing away their virginity for, then do it. There's not a thing wrong with it if the necessary precautions happen and if there's actually a strong enough feeling that it shall last.

Enough said.[/size]
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"I understand that people would think marriage is the safest domain for sex, but we invented marriage, and we didn't invent sex. Sex is a biological normalcy, marriage is anything but. It might work for a stable society, but it's obvious that it's not natural. "

[COLOR=royalblue]there are certain species of animals that choose a mate, and mate with them for life....
i think marriage is for satisfying the emotianal parts of both guys and girls....
and its easier to be married if you have kids (financially, emotianally)
[/COLOR]
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This is a tricky topic, and I'll try not to step on anybody's toes here. With the way I was brought up, and the importance of religion in my life (yes, I do think religion is a big factor in my choosing, but not the only one) I do think the best idea is to wait. Besides the risks of STD's, most people aren't mature enough to even think about the ways that having sex early will affect them. I've had some introspective musings with myself lately, and I thought about how my life would change if one of the things that could go wrong happens: What if I got a STD, and died early; What if I became a father, before I was even done growing up, etc? I wouldn't be able to do any of the things I want to do before I even considered getting married. (Well, maybe some of those things... but that's beside the point). I would have to drop plans of going to college full time, or part time even to go to work. And because I would have to go to work and not have enough time to go to college, I wouldn't be able to use any scholarships that are currently the only way I'd be able to go. This is even just thinking personally about my self, and not considering my family (not that what I would do has anything to do with them... but hey I'm 17, I still live with them and that counts for something), my friends, and all that goes with it. If there are any people that are having pre marital sex, I understand that it's your call, and maybe you can and do deal with all the aspects that go into making such desicions. I also know that whatever I say probably won't change the opinions of someone set in their ways, and that's ok too.
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B] Sex creates such a strong bond that, whether you realize it or not, will last forever.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Well, this is true with the right person, but this is also what society/religion tells you. I'm not so sure you should make said statement without actually [and personally] knowing whether it does or not.

I agree that sex is our animal nature. It's our character, will, morals, and society that define how good or 'bad' sex is, or whether or not it's for us. I think the general issue here is that sex is a very personal choice, and that neither side should chastize the other for doing what they believe in.

However, I guess that if that were the case, there woudln't be so many firey debates about it all. I'm glad this one is civilized :P[/color]
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[COLOR=darkblue]The older I get, the less religion and society has a direct impact on whether or not I chose to have sex. I'm very curious to actually experience it although I'd save it for someone I really care about. Close friend, great; a partner, even better. Plus, I'd likely know if they have any diseases that way.

I'd stray hard away from "using" and instead give them perhaps the closest experience a person can have with someone else. I don't want to hurt afterwards because it didn't mean anything other than the sole purpose of pleasure, which is possibly why religion discourages premarital sex, sometimes even other things associated with sex.

Being responsible is very important. I'm partly against the birth control pill or drugs in general because it has the potential of making a woman sterile. It happened to my auntie. I think a condom and spermacide is enough.[/COLOR]
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[color=indigo]Heh, I was debating whether or not to post in this thread in fear of influencing anybody by my questionable habits. Then I realized that if anyone is influenced by my actions they probably have **** for brains.

Anyway, I would guess that I have had more sexual experiences, partners, ect, than most on this message board mainly because I am older than most. I have woken up in a bed next to a girl I met the night before more than once and I have had to take the walk of shame to the doctor?s office for VD tests more than once. But I have always been smart about not being smart; I always wear a condom (well not always, but when I am having sex), and I really don?t think of myself as being promiscuous?although how we define ourselves is always debatable. Good sex is a lot of fun (and there is a difference between sex and good sex), and the best way to have lots of good sex is to remain monogamous, because sex is rarely good until you now how to push the right buttons for your partner.

As far as the sanctity of sex, I really don?t buy it. I have had too many relationships based solely on passion and not love. I?m not saying it is right or wrong, but I think that too many people rush into marriage so they can have sex and probably realize that they weren?t really in love, they were just lusting after another person.

If you abstain from having sex until you are married, good for you. You have will power that I will never possess?just don?t preach to me and your sister?we are enjoying ourselves :p[/color]
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B]Sorry, to clarify the marriage thing, I'm assuming, "til death do us part." (conservative Catholic here) [/B][/QUOTE]

I doubt it's [i]just[/i] a conservative Catholic thing ;-). I believe very strongly on the matter of marriage. More so than on the matter of sex. I still believe that sex should be reserved for marriage, and I personally still hold to that belief, but I'd rather see people doing otherwise without moral reasons not to, than see people say "til death do us part" and then go back on that.

On the Christian side of things, sex is clearly not seen as a bad thing (read a short way through the song of songs..- ok, it may be symbolic [i]as well[/i], but it's also meant to be taken at face value), however it is seen as something which can only be undertaken with someone who is your own. Someone isn't really yours until you are unified- and unity of a romantic form is in the ceremony of marriage. And Jesus' teachings were very clear that once you're married to one person, you're not to just decide you don't want them anymore and go for another.

If you don't believe in all that, then that's fine by me, but if you profess to follow Christ and don't believe in that, then I'm not quite sure what part of Christ you're following, but it's not the whole thing.

I don't say that in a condemnational way- Jesus didn't teach this to nail us down, but to show us love. What kind of love professes to be with someone until death, and then a little further down the line go back on it?. You could argue that you didn't know them as well as you do now, you could argue that they just went too far- well that's too bad, but people will always let you down. Not everybody, and not all the time, but it will always happen. Live with it, learn, and love.
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[color=green]I have also been down that walk of shame, more times than I would like to admit. That perspective is what gives me my view on this subject. My perspective is made from my own experiences. Mine were, often times, stupid. There's really no other way to put it. They continued to be stupid until I met my current partner.

No two people are going to have the same viewpoints here... Even if they have they have the same conclusion, it comes fro different places. That's why i am also glad that this is a civil conversation as well. [/color]
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Yeah well, sex is something a lot of people don't stop and think of the consequences about. They just want to satisy themselves and try to get with the person standing the closest to them. And some might think about it but still do it anyway. It wouldn't matter to them and to them it's just, 'something older people do to stop you from having fun.'

Yeah well, twice before when it happened I only stopped to think once and that was the second time. The first it was something passing by and I didn't care a thing for it. I just wanted to relax and forget everything. The second time, I stopped to think about it and I realized what I was putting to risk. I declined and ended up being forced. Luckily, I came out ok.

People really need to stop and think about what they do before someone actually does it. It's not a passing game, it's a serious matter that should be done probably in marriage or when you feel mentally mature enough and can handle anything that comes from it.
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud[/i]
I always wear a condom (well not always, but when I am having sex)[/quote]
Hahahahaha ... ahahaha.

Anyway ... I used to think sex was a huge deal and that it should be saved for marriage, but I no longer do. And this isn't because I've had sex with tons of guys or anything, it's because ... I don't know, it's just not as big a deal as it had always been hyped up to me. I've found what Artemis said, about sex creating a strong bond whether you know it or not, isn't true. Sex [i]can[/i] create a strong bond and be a very emotionally connecting thing, ... but it also can not be.

(Incidentally on that, I once heard in a sermon that when girls have sex, it releases a hormone in their brain that makes them emotionally bond to whoever they're with, whereas guys don't. ... Or something like that. Anybody know if that's true?)

I agree with what most people have been saying so far, as long as you think about it beforehand and take the necessary precautions, premarital sex isn't a bad thing.
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Guest cloricus
The church has dismissed nearly everything from the science community except that the earth is round for the last few thousand years, why start at sex? It could well be true, there are many hormones running through your body and a good few of them are dedicated to reproduction and males and females have different ones that do different things and affect the two sexes in different ways but from my limited knowledge of sex I'd say that if there was a hormone that did what you suggest it isn't very strong and maybe is a basic control against inbreeding? Not sure.
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Humans and Dolphins are the only species that have sex for pleasure, meaning it feels good when we have sex and we do it for that pupose only sometimes. Hence the creation of birth control. Given that ability, I believe if it's there, let it be. Meaning if I can have sex for pure pleasure, then so I will. God gave us that ability, why not utilize it eh?

I am lucky in some aspect, unlucky in others.... I can't get my partner pregnant.... however STDs seem to run a higher rate and risk in my situation. It's always and ongoing issue... you always have to be ready. Our society now-a-days is a sex driven society. Not to dog on Catholics or anything, but every Catholic I know has been having sex before marriage. My sister in law did it, my friends did it. It goes for everyone.... Sex is here.... and it certainly won't be going away for a while. Mise well live it up.
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don't gorrillas get pleasure too...? dolphins are pretty well known for ganag raping too.

anyway, back to the subject, i don't want a one night stand, but i probably won't do it before marriage, even though i am opposed to birth pills and other contraceptives, cause if your going to breed, then breed. but if where in so much love to procreate, why not get married? eh...
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by scrmngfangrl [/i]
[B]dolphins are pretty well known for ganag raping too.[/B][/QUOTE]

*blinks*

Oookay......

There's nothing inherently wrong with premarital sex; it just isn't for everyone. Some people are very emotionally vulnerable, and therefore are better off saving themselves for marriage. Others lack the maturity necessary to comprehend the possible consequences of sexual activity.

I know I've done some things that, given the chance, I might not have chosen to repeat. But I won't dwell on my mistakes or wallow in regret.

As long as the people involved are smart enough to take sex seriously, I don't see why engaging in it prior to marriage is a problem. And I'd like to dispute the idea that sex creates some kind of everlasting bond. It can enhance pre-existing romantic attachments, but it's quite possible to have sexual contact with someone without developing feelings towards them. It's not a pleasant or enjoyable experience, but it's possible.

~Dagger~
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