Let's talk about ....., baby... (Mature Themes)

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AzureWolf [/i]
[B]I don't know... I've always seen premarital sex as selfish, relativistically speaking. If you are willing to go that far with someone and still not marry them, there has to be something wrong in the relationship. Why don't you marry them if they are that central to you? I don't think time would be such a demanding factor.

I really haven't seen any core-cutting comments favoring pre-marital sex yet. I mean, brushing it off as something personal is so easy for one thing. Secondly, it is so wrong. It's two people, not one. If you applied this "it's personal" logic to everything else in life, communities would be nonexistent. Also, when you die, are you the only one affected? Didn't think so. When you take a step back and look at the big picture, "it's my life" doesn't sound so meaningful.

It would be great if we could all just tell everyone to leave everyone else alone, but we know that's not going to help anyone in the long run. IMO, man's greatest achievements were the ones he made with other people.

EDIT: Thought I'd clear up that "selfish" remark. I don't mean you are selfish, but I'm saying when you compare it to people who waited till marriage, it seems [B]a little[/B] selfish. What if the person you married waited for you? [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]The problem with that approach is I could say that the inverse is true as well. It is just as selfish for a person to wait for marriage to have sex for several reasons.

If you are in love with someone to the point of wanting to marry them, than it shouldn't matter whether or not they have had sex...yet, since you have abstained from sex you have more than likely made your partner feel guilty because they didn't place as much importance on it as you did.

Also, if your partner enjoys having sex is it not equally unfair for you to not be adequetly experienced?

I don't know, I really don't see how you can truly say you know someone until you've had sex before. What if you were to get married never having sex, and it turns out that your partner doesn't like having it nearly as much as you do and only gets one-tenth the enjoyment out of it as you. You could end up marrying a raging nympho and end up getting divorced...I guess the true question is "what is more sacred: sex or marriage?"

Sex is just an act that lasts for moments, real marriages last an eternity.[/color]

[AzureWolf]

[quote]So if I love this person and can't afford to get married because of financial reasons, I shouldn't have sex with them? How does this even make sense? I understand being against pre-marital sex, but this, to me, is equating love with financial stability, which just doesn't work. Love doesn't base itself on such trivial and superficial things, so why should I be tied down by it?[/quote] Ok, you know what I mean. We aren't comparing ridiculous extremes. I could turn to the other extreme and say to forget marriage altogther and just stick with sex and no finances, which begs the question, "why are you wasting time having sex if you don't have enough money to even support yourself?" These are things you should be taken care of even before you start a relationship, IMO, but I'm referring to the average joe, who has a ho-hum job that, while not satisfyiing, puts food on the table. [quote]People go through hardships. Some people will never be able to afford a nice wedding. That doesn't mean they can't support themselves or eachother in general, but weddings are incredibly expensive... and I doubt most people want to run off to Las Vegas and spend $50 away from their family.[/quote] Again, if there are so many problems, why is sex required for the relationship to last? Is the bond so weak that you need sex to keep two people together? IMO, the bond of marriage is one that defines sex, but doesn't require it. [quote]That means that is it? That means their love isn't strong enough to show it in a physical way? How is that a better alternative?[/quote] No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that money can change a person. So, if you get married after sex, it's implied that you now have the money to do so (which you didn't before). Is there 100% certainty that your partner will be the same with this increase in $$$? Obviously, we aren't talking about anyone here on OB, who are 100% sure of their partner and know them like the back of their hand, but I'm referring to the general populace in the US (and where applicable :)). But in all seriousness, I don't mean just your relationship, but a general/average relationship.[quote]If you are in love with someone to the point of wanting to marry them, than it shouldn't matter whether or not they have had sex...yet, since you have abstained from sex you have more than likely made your partner feel guilty because they didn't place as much importance on it as you did.[/quote] I agree, it shouldn't matter. However, I'm saying that a true relationship can go without sex until marriage because it is that strong. I think I'm making just the opposite emphasis, that sex is an accessory to your love, not a requirement.

[Semjaza]

I can only repsond to what you've written. I don't know you well enough to know how far you take some of your idea, because obviously some people would take them that far.

I don't think anyone in here that has had sex in there lifetime has given any implication that the act itself it is required for a real, loving relationship to last. It's an aspect of the relationship, not the focal point. I certainly don't think that way, yet I've not waited for marriage either.

It's something that is a result of one's love for another person, and personally, I don't need marriage to define that love for me.

There's a big difference between that and the idea that I could be running around screwing every girl that would let me lol. Of course, that's another category altogether.

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]I can only repsond to what you've written. I don't know you well enough to know how far you take some of your idea, because obviously some people would take them that far.

I don't think anyone in here that has had sex in there lifetime has given any implication that the act itself it is required for a real, loving relationship to last. It's an aspect of the relationship, not the focal point. I certainly don't think that way, yet I've not waited for marriage either.

It's something that is a result of one's love for another person, and personally, I don't need marriage to define that love for me. [/B][/QUOTE] Awesome, we are on the same page. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the clarification.

Anyway, this point goes to another point of discussion. Yes, marriage has become very superficial, IMO. I think that the origins had some sacred validity to them, but over centuries, that meaning was lost, and only the act of marriage has lasted.

[Semjaza]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AzureWolf [/i]
[B]Awesome, we are on the same page. Thanks for the clarification.

Anyway, this point goes to another point of discussion. Yes, marriage has become very superficial, IMO. I think that the origins had some sacred validity to them, but over centuries, that meaning was lost, and that only the act of marriage has lasted. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's part of the reason I'm not really interested in marriage at this point. Needless to say my girlfriend isn't exactly fond of my ideas on the subject heh.

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AzureWolf [/i]
[B]I could turn to the other extreme and say to forget marriage altogther and just stick with sex and no finances, which begs the question, "why are you wasting time having sex if you don't have enough money to even support yourself?" [/quote][/b]

[color=deeppink]I don't know...I think that statement is again lowering sex to just some random physical act, rather than thinking about what it means. Having sex isn't exactly 'wasting time', even if you don't have the finances...? I'm extremely confused on what you mean by that...[/color]

[quote][b]... that sex is an accessory to your love, not a requirement. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]Yep, I agree. And I never felt 'required' to start having sex, it happened because we felt comfortable and love each other. It's certainly an accessory for me, there are often times where I am not even in the mood for sex in the first place. I know that our relationship doesn't revolve around any and all passionate encounters, but rather our emotional relationship is central to our...relationship [repeating words so close together is annoying :P][/color]

[Maully]

[color=green]It feels knid of like a tug of war in here... Semjaza made a point that I think need to be hit on a little but more, and that is this:The use of the word personal. Sure, it is your personal decision when [i]you[/i] are ready to have sex, but there are usually two people involved, at least in my experience :p. I want to add a personal twist to this "personal" point...Just because you are ready, don't try to tell someone else they are ready too. HC, your post sounds like a guilt trip, although I am pretty sure that's the point. Those are the types of things guys I wouldn't sleep with tried to say to me.

I don 't think that it's important to have the same amount of experience sexually before getting married. I think that is quite ridiculous. I'm not sure why, but I do. And to say keeping your virginity is selfish, well, maybe, but wow...I don't know why, but the more i think about that statement the more I am actually kind of offended by it...

I used to be completely anti-marriage. I never wanted to be married, I also never thought that Iwould find anyone I'd want to be with for over 6 months, let alone the rest of my life... Then I found him, and now my views of marriage have changed. While we all know I did not wait for marriage, and I do not wish that I had, I now think about being married a lot. It has an appeal to me that I never thought that it would. It's all just personal I guess. Marriage only has the sanctity behind it that the two people put into it.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Molleta [/i]
[B][color=green] Marriage only has the sanctity behind it that the two people put into it.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I agree with that statement.

I don't think that marriage itself has a huge bearing on someone's relationship, at least in terms of how much you love someone and so on.

It's true, however, that everyone places a different stock in marriage. Some couples are really keen on the idea while others aren't. That is why the whole sex before marriage thing isn't some blanket standard that can be applied to everybody, especially when you look at the statistics of people getting married later in life, etc...

[/color]

[Queen Asuka]

[color=hotpink][size=1]Well, some of you close to me know where I'm coming from, for the most part, so I guess I'll put in my two cents finally.

To me, marriage is VERY sacred. It's an everlasting bond, if sealed properly, and you're not going to be with that person until death does you part. It's for time and all eternity. When I get married, it's going to be forever, so I want it to be with the right person.

As for premarital sex, I know that it's wrong. But I know that people in very close relationships will find themselves in a situation where something of the sort will come up. How they handle that situation is up to them. I don't condone premarital sex. I know that sounds hypocritical...

I also think it's wrong if you're under 18. If you're living on your own, taking care of yourself (pretty much), then you're probably more responsible and mature. I hate hearing about middle school kids who get pregnant at the age of 12 or 13 and have children. That is SAD. Because of that, their own childhood is taken away from them.[/color][/size]

[NeoNabishen]

Everybody has made great points. I dont know if I can add anything that hasent been sead. If you love somebody you should be able to what for them "get hiched" before you have sex. Its harder being in Highschool Just becouse If you really do love your B/G friend you cant just go out and get married. I think the church I go to has a good philosophy on premarital sex when it comes to teens. Dont get into a relationship that can get you into a hole you cant get out of when your in school. that means NO "dating before 16, Making-out for long periods of time, and touching parts of the body that make you want to have sex" ya I know that seems extrem and it probably takes all the fun out of dating but it seems to work. "I wouldent know from experiance, I do all the things that my church says not to with my FB (friend with benefits) but we have agreed that we wont have sex unless we get married. I gess we would have to start going out first to get to the marriag thing. HA, Ha, ha...
I also agree with Queen Asuka . love is a progression not a stoping point and Marriage is for time and all eternity.
the love is a progression thing is all mine by the whay. Well thats all I have to say on the matter.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Molleta [/i]
[B][color=green]Just because you are ready, don't try to tell someone else they are ready too. HC, your post sounds like a guilt trip, although I am pretty sure that's the point.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I wasn?t really trying to create a guilt trip, I was just trying to point out that each couple needs to decide where there priorities lie early on in there relationship, before sex ever becomes an issue. If you address it early enough you know exactly where you and your partner stand, and it helps to take pressure off of the relationship. Everyone places a different moral value on sex, at the same time no one should ever feel like they are being pressured into a consensual act?