Personal Vices

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]Vices are:

[list]a. An evil, degrading, or immoral practice or habit.
b. A serious moral failing.
c. Wicked or evil conduct or habits; corruption.
d. Sexual immorality, especially prostitution.
e. A slight personal failing; a foible: the vice of untidiness.
f. A flaw or imperfection; a defect.
g. A physical defect or weakness.[/list]

*Do you think that things are labeled 'vices' because society shapes them to be 'wrong', or are they born vices out of human nature?

*Do you have any personal vices, or any that you believe are destructive to yourself or others? [Vices aren't necessarily all morally 'wrong', but are sometimes simply bad habits [ex. smoking] that someone finds pleasure in.]

*What certain vices do you find to be the most destructive in today's society? Is that vice considered 'morally wrong'? Are there any vices that you believe to be fairly harmless?

---I have a few vices, I suppose. How about the rest of you?[/color]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink]
Q1: My answer would have to be both. Take, for example, atheism. A majority of society views atheism as morally and religiously wrong, yet they do not have anything to back up their belief besides 'faith' and the Bible. However, you can also have someone such as a serial killer or rapist. These acts are obviously born of something wrong psychologically, something disturbed in human nature.

Q2: Of course, and I'd like to meet the person who says he or she doesn't. I procrastinate a lot, especially with my school work. My grades end up suffering, and it makes my life far more stressful. Do I like this? No. But changing such bad habits is far easier said than done. I also have a bad habit of skirting the truth (heh, lying.) Despite this, or perhaps because of it, I value telling the truth very much. C'est la vie.

Q3, part a: Abuse of psychologically and physically altering substances such as alcholol, drugs, etc. Society seems to accept the consumption of these things more and more. People will go home so drunk they can't walk straight, and that will be considered 'having a good time.' Getting high is a fun group activity, just like going to the mall. This is mainly and especially a problem in America. People seek instant gratification, and no longer care about what their life is going to turn out as, or where they're going to end up, or how people will remember them, if at all. Another big one is careless sex. I can't believe people actually wonder why AIDS is such a big epidemic. I consider both of these things morally wrong. However, sad to say, at least half of America doesn't agree with me.

Q3, part b) Yes. Untidiness probably isn't going to cause any serious problems, unless you're so much so that you leave boxes of food around, and get infestations. There are also various other flaws, such as perfectionism, that won't hurt anyone very much in the long run, unless it's to a severe extreme.

Okay. It's 2 am, maybe I should go to bed. Let's add that to Q2...constant refusal to sleep. I swear, it's the insomnia...^-~

-Karma
[/color]

[Artemis]

It seems like definitions a-d are the classically considered "vices"--moral imperfections (aka "sins"). Although, disorders, (ex. chronic self-mutilation, masturbation, etc.) where there are actual psychological problems involved are not really considered sins (by the RCC, at least), rather, problems that need to be fixed.
I can also see where the term "vice" can be placed into other situations. So, yeah, I agree the both of you. It's both soceital and moral.
2 vices of my own: Gossip (moral vice) and procrastination (closer to soceital, though, in some ways it could be moral as well -- i.e. not helping someone when you know you should.)
Guess that's all for now.
I should probably sleep... :sleepy:
~art~

[Maully]

[color=green]Deep thought, Jenna...

Q1:Vices, as defined by the first post, are, IMO, defined through society and therefore are very pliable in their boundaries. However, many vices have their vice-foots in the fact that they are unhealthy in some form or another, much like smoking.

Q2: I am a nail biter...I also have a lot of old bad habits that I have thankfully dropped.

Q3: I think that ignorance, especially willful ignorance, is altogether the most damaging vice in our society today.Not only do people not get education or educate themselves, they just don't care about it and would rather not know anything. it makes me angry.
[/color]

[Chaos]

Firstly, vices are a matter of opinion. No one has the right to judge morality, unless it is on one's own part. After that, it's a conflict of the minds. It's as simple as that. If you were lost in the forest for your entire life, not knowing anything except your own thoughts, then morality would be what you decide. Society puts boundaries and vices and limits on what people should say, do, think, etc. because at one point in time, somebody stepped up and started talking and filling peoples' heads with sentimental ********.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that I have any vices, because if I did, that would mean I am second-guessing my own sense of integrity. If I willingly do it, then I do it because it is what I want to do it, and if I want to do it, then it can't be particularly wrong.

By far, the biggest vice has to be stupidity. Ranging from racism, to sexism, to elitism, to, of course, morality, and to just acting idiotic. Racism in itself is a incredibly stupid. Hating a person for the color of their skin. Heaven forbid nature follows a course. Sexism, well. Almost all distinguishable life forms are inherently female in the first place, so Hell, I will digress.



"Vices are:



a. An evil, degrading, or immoral practice or habit.
b. A serious moral failing.
c. Wicked or evil conduct or habits; corruption.
d. Sexual immorality, especially prostitution.
e. A slight personal failing; a foible: the vice of untidiness.
f. A flaw or imperfection; a defect.
g. A physical defect or weakness."


a. Cursing, I suppose
b. I fail to see why children being killed is so bad.
c. Well, there was that time with the M80s and the kitten...
d. ....I won't go into this, to protect myself for further incrimination.
e. I'm lazy and evasive of blame.
f. I'm highly apathetic; I suppose this would be a vice.
g. My right arm is a pinch longer than my left.

Now, let's see. ..Hmm, yes. I don't see a problem with any of which I listed just above. That would prove my first little blurb on morality.

[Justin]

"All we, like sheep, have gone astray..."

So, there is no one who has no personal vices. Mine remain lust, pride, laziness, greed, the inability to think before I speak, and the inability to properly control my emotions. And those are only the ones I can think of. That is why I always say that God is only concerned with your direction, not your perfection. Perfection is the final destination of those headed in that direction.

To me, the worst human flaw is the lack of love. That, by my observation, is the direct source of most of the world's problem today. But love is a difficult emotion to obtain, so I rarely expect anyone to ever obtain it for anyone beyond those already close to them.

-Justin

[Dagger]

Q1: Right and wrong are defined by the society in which you live. However, just as certain virtues are common to many religions, certain vices are condemned in nearly every culture, past or present. Few civilizations have ever condoned murder (except in the case of war or invasion). So I'd say that patterns of behavior are labelled "vices" because they fail to conform to society's standards--but these patterns of behavior are usually a manifestation of that which is inherently wrong or evil in human nature. Of course, "evil" is relative. It's just that people's perceptions of evil tend to be fairly similar. Even dictators try to convince themselves that they're working towards the general good.

Q2: My main vices are laziness and selfishness. I'd much rather do something that brings me instantaneous personal gratification (i.e. go online, sleep, watch TV) than something that involves actual labor (i.e. schoolwork) or something that doesn't benefit me, but does end up pleasing someone else (i.e. cleaning my room or vacuuming the kitchen).

Q3: Inflexibility. If more people were only willing to consider alternate viewpoints, there'd probably be a lot less hatred and suffering in the world.

~Dagger~

[KarmaOfChaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaos [/i]
[B]Firstly, vices are a matter of opinion. No one has the right to judge morality, unless it is on one's own part. After that, it's a conflict of the minds. It's as simple as that. If you were lost in the forest for your entire life, not knowing anything except your own thoughts, then morality would be what you decide. Society puts boundaries and vices and limits on what people should say, do, think, etc. because at one point in time, somebody stepped up and started talking and filling peoples' heads with sentimental ********.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[color=deeppink]

Very true. But consider the fact that most of the world is born into a society, and out of all those societies, most believe a few, base things are wrong (such as murder, or rape). Since it is so common to see them viewed as 'immoral', it must be taken into account that there has to be [i]something[/i] inherently wrong with those acts, that so many societies and peoples would condemn them.

However, society also can also take the majority vote, and force beliefs upon people. Such as the belief that suicide is wrong. I personally do not share this belief.

So yes, your morality is your own descion. But there are certain acts that aren't acceptable in almost any place, and that because of society, your morality is reigned in, laws are put upon it. You're free to believe what you want, but be careful how you act.

-Karma
[/color]

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KarmaOfChaos [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]Very true. But consider the fact that most of the world is born into a society, and out of all those societies, most believe a few, base things are wrong (such as murder, or rape). Since it is so common to see them viewed as 'immoral', it must be taken into account that there has to be [i]something[/i] inherently wrong with those acts, that so many societies and peoples would condemn them.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

That's basically what I was trying to say, but I think you ended up phrasing it far better than I ever could have.

The vast majority of people will feel somewhat guilty the first time they lie, cheat, or steal. And no matter what their religion or political affiliation, most people share the same opinions about particular moral issues (with a few important exceptions--for example, abortion and suicide).

~Dagger~

[Baron Samedi]

Isn't a vice something you stick wood or other such material in to hold still whilst performing another operation?

Maybe I'm wrong. lol Nice subject...

Both. However, a vice is something completely subjective: it exists only in a persons mind. These 'vices' are obviously born into us, but are not bad as such without the personal influence of morals. A person who was raised in a rough town for example, would find little wrong with killing or raping if they were raised this way.

Another person would find it abhorrent. Entirely subjective. Society shapes the ideas of vices, but they are born of human nature.

Vices. yes, I have them. Mind that these are vices to my opinion though; Lazyness. I am lazy. Procrastination, a part of laziness. Those are probably my only vices to my mind. I am basically a good person, I suppose, but that is subjective, to my life.

Really harmful vices? Hate. An emotion, but used excessively becomes a vice. I think killing, stealing, greed and general wrong-doing are vices. But these are only too me. Drinking and smoking are bad vices, but relate to freedom. in fact, they all relate to personaly freedom. My ideas of vices can only relate to my personal ideas of right and wrong. Thats my take on the matter.

I hate vices. ever since I got pissed off at one, and slammed the little handle thing down. Caught my finger in it and got a blood blister. Ouch. bloody vices. heh.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]However, a vice is something completely subjective: it exists only in a persons mind. These 'vices' are obviously born into us, but are not bad as such without the personal influence of morals. A person who was raised in a rough town for example, would find little wrong with killing or raping if they were raised this way.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak from personal experience. But it seems to me that even in a "rough town," where rape and murder might be common occurences, few parents would tell their children to go raping and killing as they pleased.

Vices are definitely subjective--at least to a certain degree. I just don't think that very many people, if any, are raised to find little wrong with killing and/or raping. They may feel apathetic about it, having seen or heard so much of it when growing up, yet I doubt they would actively condone it or argue that it was morally right.

[quote]Society shapes the ideas of vices, but they are born of human nature.[/quote]

To me, it seems that this statement is somewhat inconsistent with your earlier affirmation of moral subjectivity. It sounds as though you're saying that though vices exist within every human being, it is society which names and defines them.

That may be so. Then why do so many different cultures label the same things (rape and murder, for example) as vices? Over the course of history, rape has rarely been viewed as a positive thing, although it was certainly more acceptable during certain periods than it is now. But I don't believe that it was ever considered to be a morally admirable action.

~Dagger~

[moonlight angel]

Q1: "Vices" are defined by a society's impression of what is right or wrong. If a vice is something that is "An evil, degrading, or immoral practice or habit," then who is to say what is immoral and what is not? It all depends on the perspective of that particular society. If that society says something is black, then it is black and can never be white. However another society might see it the other way around. Who's to say which one's right and which is wrong?

Q2: Heh heh, well I'd have to say laziness, procrastination, and the inability to prioritize. I would really rather watch t.v. than clean my room. I always put things off until the last minute, usually essays and projects. I also tend to do the least important thing first, and save the really hard time consuming things for later (9:00 at night... o_0)

Q3: The most damaging vice? Hmmm, egotism by far. The whole attitude of "everything is for me, me, me..." is really horrible. When you combine it with stupidity you get a whole society that only cares for themselves, AND can't think of anything better to do. If people stopped their self-serving frenzy for a moment and really thought about some one else for a change, it might get rid of a whole lot of problems.

[Mitch]

[size=1] I'll say what I want to simply.

What's bad is good and what's good is bad. What's fair is foul and what's foul is fair.[/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[COLOR=INDIGO]

[I]*Do you think that things are labeled 'vices' because society shapes them to be 'wrong', or are they born vices out of human nature? [/I]

Oddly enough, I would say it is both. People tend to have vices and cling to those vices because it comforts them, it helps alleviate stress, or it gives a quick sense of familiarity. In that sense it is a definite product of human nature. However, as a society we dictate what should and should not be considered a vice. For example, if you had to have a Martini before dinner in order to cope with your family, as a society we would generalize that as a vice. But if you instead had to go for a jog before dinner in order to cope with your family society would say that you practiced a healthy virtue.

[I]*Do you have any personal vices, or any that you believe are destructive to yourself or others? [Vices aren't necessarily all morally 'wrong', but are sometimes simply bad habits [ex. smoking] that someone finds pleasure in.] [/I]

My largest vice would be the internet. I really should not utilize it the way I do at work, and it could be potentially destructive if my bosses realized that I was constantly visiting the OtakuBoards for pleasure. I guess that it is one of the reasons while I type all of my responses in Microsoft Word, I can leave the OB minimized and hidden.

[I]*What certain vices do you find to be the most destructive in today's society? Is that vice considered 'morally wrong'? Are there any vices that you believe to be fairly harmless? [/I]

Well my vice isn?t really horribly wrong because I don?t allow it to affect my job. When your vice infringes on another?s lifestyle it becomes morally wrong. For example, if you have a drink before dinner (a glass of wine for example) to help you relax, your ?vice? is harmless. If you have to get incredibly drunk to cope with your family then you need to seek help. I guess, like most everything, you have to practice moderation. Excessiveness in anything will cause problems.[/COLOR]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Heaven's Cloud [/i]
[B][COLOR=INDIGO]

For example, if you have a drink before dinner (a glass of wine for example) to help you relax, your ?vice? is harmless. If you have to get incredibly drunk to cope with your family then you need to seek help. I guess, like most everything, you have to practice moderation. Excessiveness in anything will cause problems.[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]
After time, having 'a drink before dinner' will become nessicary. You can't go through the rest of your day without that drink. And after awhile, you begin to drink more and more just 'to cope.' Very bad example here. This is one of those 'harmless vices' that slowly turns into a horrible problem.

I've had lots of experience with alchololics, and using such an example just...annoys me because it a common misconception that will drive people terribly wrong, because they think they aren't addicted. Very few people can habitually have 'that drink' and not become addicted. Sure, there are pleanty of people can go to a party, have one or two drinks, and be relatively okay, and I'm not saying that drinking alcholol is a sin. Just don't make it a habit.

Wow...I kind of got off topic there, sorry. Bringing it back to the original purpose of this thread...vices. Besides alcholol, are there any other vices anyone can think of that start out as 'harmless' and turn into a huge problem? Just wondering what everyone else's thoughts were.

-Karma
[/color]

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KarmaOfChaos [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]
After time, having 'a drink before dinner' will become nessicary. You can't go through the rest of your day without that drink. And after awhile, you begin to drink more and more just 'to cope.' Very bad example here. This is one of those 'harmless vices' that slowly turns into a horrible problem.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't the phrase "harmless vice" something of an oxymoron? I always thought that a vice was, by its very nature, harmful to someone or something.

I understand where you're coming from, but drinking [i]in moderation[/i] doesn't really qualify as a vice. Someone who only imbibes alcohol during the occasional social situation or who likes to enjoy a glass of red wine during dinner will not automatically turn into an alcoholic. I won't deny the possibility--after all, if he or she is genetically predisposed towards alcoholism, it's quite likely that the occasional glass could in fact lead to a dangerous addiction.

I wouldn't say that drinking is a vice in and of itself (although drinking excessively--to the point of alcoholism--is). In appropriate quantities, alcohol can actually be beneficial to your health; studies show that red wine is good for your heart. It's when you go overboard that you suffer liver damage, brain damage, etc.

So alcohol [i]can[/i] turn into a huge problem, but only when it's misused.

Smoking, however, is a vice from the very beginning. Not only does it slowly destroy your body, it also affects those around you (through second-hand smoke).

In answer to your question, I suppose that certain drugs, such as habit-forming painkillers, could initially be construed as harmless.

~Dagger~

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dagger IX1 [/i]
[B]Isn't the phrase "harmless vice" something of an oxymoron? I always thought that a vice was, by its very nature, harmful to someone or something.

I understand where you're coming from, but drinking [i]in moderation[/i] doesn't really qualify as a vice. Someone who only imbibes alcohol during the occasional social situation or who likes to enjoy a glass of red wine during dinner will not automatically turn into an alcoholic. I won't deny the possibility--after all, if he or she is genetically predisposed towards alcoholism, it's quite likely that the occasional glass could in fact lead to a dangerous addiction.

I wouldn't say that drinking is a vice in and of itself (although drinking excessively--to the point of alcoholism--is). In appropriate quantities, alcohol can actually be beneficial to your health; studies show that red wine is good for your heart. It's when you go overboard that you suffer liver damage, brain damage, etc.

So alcohol [i]can[/i] turn into a huge problem, but only when it's misused.

Smoking, however, is a vice from the very beginning. Not only does it slowly destroy your body, it also affects those around you (through second-hand smoke).

In answer to your question, I suppose that certain drugs, such as habit-forming painkillers, could initially be construed as harmless.

~Dagger~ [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] As I said, what's bad is good and what's good is bad.

It's all how you see it, really. Society feeds your mouth full of what's right and wrong and good and bad. Your parents feed your mouth full of what's right and wrong and good and bad. Religion feeds your mouth full of what's good and bad and right and wrong.

Bad and good and right and wrong are only words. Vice is only a word. They only mean what they mean by emotional attachements and nudges.

An alchoholic might think drinking is good, whereas someone else might see it as wrong.

A murderer might think murdering is right and good and great, whereas someone else might see it as wrong.

A pedophile might think what they are doing is right and good and great and feels good, whereas someone else might see it as wrong.

It's all opinion. It's all how you see it. Nothing more nothing less.

It comes down to emotions and what you think. Not what other's have fed you. Not what words feed you.[/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KarmaOfChaos [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]
After time, having 'a drink before dinner' will become nessicary. You can't go through the rest of your day without that drink. And after awhile, you begin to drink more and more just 'to cope.' Very bad example here. This is one of those 'harmless vices' that slowly turns into a horrible problem.

I've had lots of experience with alchololics, and using such an example just...annoys me because it a common misconception that will drive people terribly wrong, because they think they aren't addicted. Very few people can habitually have 'that drink' and not become addicted. Sure, there are pleanty of people can go to a party, have one or two drinks, and be relatively okay, and I'm not saying that drinking alcholol is a sin. Just don't make it a habit.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Actually it is an excellent point, and although it seems as though you wanted to disprove it, you only added to its validity. More people than not can go through life with having just one drink before dinner, however, people with addictive personalities tend to take things to excess (hence the statement that anything taken to excess is usually not good). Addictive personalities are usually derived from a history of chemical depression. In which case there are very few harmless ?vices?.

It seems as though you are referring to the actual addictive properties of a substance. Since you do not get enough of the diuretic properties of alcohol from [u]one[/u] traditional drink before dinner, it is impossible to become an addict from that situation (again, unless you have hereditary addictive tendencies). Obviously if you drink to ?catch a buzz? before dinner than your vice is not having one drink, your vice is ?getting sloshed before dinner?. Again it all returns to excess. Granted, a harmless vice could lead to a crippling addiction, but usually you are genetically predisposed to that disposition anyhow. Hopefully that cleared up my previous post a little.[/color]

[Queen Asuka]

[color=hotpink][size=1][b]*Do you think that things are labeled 'vices' because society shapes them to be 'wrong', or are they born vices out of human nature? [/b]

That's a pretty tough question. I think they are labeled vices through evolution. Things that are accepted now could have been the most horrible thing in the world way back when. People were more conservative, and my theory is that they were closer to their religious roots. And then, through time, they lost sight of religion and sort of branched out on their own. People became selfish, moreso than ever before.

[b]*Do you have any personal vices, or any that you believe are destructive to yourself or others?[/b]

Of course I have my own personal vices. I am very impatient, I always want my way, I tend to be a bit self-centered, I have a tendancy to sacrifice my happiness for others, I procrastinate HEAVILY, I waste all of my time that I could be doing good things by browsing the internet, I tend to be quite sassy with my parents, etc. Wow, that's a good bit. But I'm sure if I pointed out my good personality traits, they would far out number the bad.

[b]*What certain vices do you find to be the most destructive in today's society? Is that vice considered 'morally wrong'? Are there any vices that you believe to be fairly harmless?[/b]

The ones that I find the most destructive are probably pride and greed. People don't ever want to admit that they are wrong and they never want to be second-best. They want to be the top of the world and will do anything to be there. They neglect those around them in the race to become "Number One." As for greed, they will do anything to have everything and they do not give enough of themselves to others. Simple as that.[/color][/size]

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]Erik and I talked for a long time about all of this last night after I brought up the subject, and we ended up coming up with some interesting conclusions.

I personally think my most harmful vice is selfishness. I always want my way so badly, even though I know that I should let others have their chance once in a while. But it feels so nice to have my way and it's so horrible to do things I don't want to do [my mind has been conditioned this way, it's a habit I'm aware of], that I usually end up whining until I DO get my way. It's a vice to me because it is seen as 'wrong' by society, but getting my way feels so darn good.

A small vice that is only really destructive to me is FOOD. I don't overeat, I simply snack constantly. I think that I must have an oral fixation with edible things in my mouth, because I always like to take something to eat along on car rides, when I'm hanging out at Erik's, typing papers, etc. It's not so much that I'm hungry, it's born out of boredom and the need to be putting something from my hands into my mouth.

If I don't have anything to snack on, I end up biting up the soft tissue on the inside of my lips without even noticing it. It's annoying that I can't stop constantly snacking, I think it has been a major player in me gaining the freshman '10', rather than '15'...I'm just lucky that I gain weight slowly...bleh.

It was never a problem when I was active with dance and cheerleading, but now I sit around a lot...no physical activity. How horrible it is![/color]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink]
I won't comment again on the whole 'alchololic issue' since it is a subject deeply rooted together with pain in my past, and I feel as if I would probably get very emotional, and not look at it from a rational standpoint anymore, and would say things I might regret later. I would just ask that people who have not experienced the full force of living or dealing with an alchololic not simply spew facts about how it is heriditary, and be aware of the fact that they are treading on what is very sensitive ground for some people. And that's where I'll end my commentary on that. (I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but this is how I feel.)

-Karma
[/color]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KarmaOfChaos [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]
I would just ask that people who have not experienced the full force of living or dealing with an alchololic not simply spew facts about how it is heriditary, and be aware of the fact that they are treading on what is very sensitive ground for some people.
[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Well since I one these people ?spewing facts? (and let me make it quite clear they were facts, not just random bits that I decided to include to encourage an argument) let me be the first to say that I really don?t care if I am treading on ?sensitive ground?. I don?t know anything about you, I don?t know about your experiences or your life, and I don?t assume to. From your statement, however, you make a broad generalization about me. An assumption for which you have no basis and an assumption that has zero truth. I have a family riddled with alcoholism, and I myself have battled serious clinical depression for eight years. It is because of this that I have attempted to educate myself with the disease that encompasses alcoholism and its symptoms. So please, from now on remember that making assumptions just makes you seem like an *** :).[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]A small vice that is only really destructive to me is FOOD. I don't overeat, I simply snack constantly. I think that I must have an oral fixation with edible things in my mouth, because I always like to take something to eat along on car rides, when I'm hanging out at Erik's, typing papers, etc. It's not so much that I'm hungry, it's born out of boredom and the need to be putting something from my hands into my mouth. [/COLOR]
[/quote][/b]

[color=indigo]I am horrible about constant snacking especially when I am at work and in front of a computer screen. It is just suck an easy habit to get into. I am desperately trying to snack on carrots and cukes instead of chips and pretzels, and drink lots of water instead of soda. The problem is that soda and chips taste so much better than water and veggies?and Snickers are much tastier than the cardboard protein bars I have been eating (stupid Halloween and all of its tempting leftover office candy?)[/COLOR]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue][size=1][i]*Do you think that things are labeled 'vices' because society shapes them to be 'wrong', or are they born vices out of human nature?[/i]

Why can't they be both? Logically, they had to have been born of human nature at some point, but have become societal (especially with teenagers).

[i]*Do you have any personal vices, or any that you believe are destructive to yourself or others? [Vices aren't necessarily all morally 'wrong', but are sometimes simply bad habits [ex. smoking] that someone finds pleasure in.][/i]

I smoke too much, I drink too much, I smoke too much weed. I'm too self-centered

[i]*What certain vices do you find to be the most destructive in today's society? Is that vice considered 'morally wrong'? Are there any vices that you believe to be fairly harmless?[/i]

The love of money. Yes, it's the root of all evil, so they say. I wouldn't say that any vice is totally harmless, but some are obviously worse than others.

[/color][/size]

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink]
My apologies have been made to Heaven's Otaku. I'm not happy with myself for making a post like that, but with all things in life, I cannot and will not take it back. From every mistake there is a lesson to be learned. The lesson here? Don't post things when you're in a bad mood. -.-"

I guess I'll try to restrain myself from posting on issues that I know will only get me upset. Sorry for this off-topic post, but I felt the need to make a formal apology to everyone. I won't be surprised if a moderator deletes both this post and my previous one. TTFN.

-Karma

{PS - Go figure, my 100th post would be a formal apology.}
[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

Apologies for not checking this thread recently. Anyways, here is my formal rebuttal:

[quote][i]originally posted by Dagger IX1[/i]

I can't speak from personal experience. But it seems to me that even in a "rough town," where rape and murder might be common occurences, few parents would tell their children to go raping and killing as they pleased.

Vices are definitely subjective--at least to a certain degree. I just don't think that very many people, if any, are raised to find little wrong with killing and/or raping. They may feel apathetic about it, having seen or heard so much of it when growing up, yet I doubt they would actively condone it or argue that it was morally right.
[/quote]

Sorry for perhaps not making my meaning clear enough; Their parents don't give, it is a common occurrence, and nobody views it as being the wrong thing to do. The people will almost definitley try it, and probably do it again. Because they don't even know [i]of[/i] right and wrong, let alone which is which [by our standards]. I wasn't saying that people are raised that way, it was a hypothetical, relating to vices only being bad in terms of how society places and defines them. What I was saying, was not if they would think it was right to do it, but they wouldn't think it was wrong or bad. Apathy in such a situation results in the same outcome as actively engaging in it. They might not even know that there is such a thing as right and wrong if they were raised in that way.

[quote]To me, it seems that this statement is somewhat inconsistent with your earlier affirmation of moral subjectivity. It sounds as though you're saying that though vices exist within every human being, it is society which names and defines them.

That may be so. Then why do so many different cultures label the same things (rape and murder, for example) as vices? Over the course of history, rape has rarely been viewed as a positive thing, although it was certainly more acceptable during certain periods than it is now. But I don't believe that it was ever considered to be a morally admirable action.

[/quote]

By referring to vices' subjectivity to society, I mean that the borders of what a vice is, its' defining limits, is completely dependent upon the society that it happens in.

Vices [i]do[/i] exist in every human, and society [i]does[/i] shape name and define them. Thats exactly what I am saying, and is backed up by this;[quote][i]By me[/i]

Society shapes the ideas of vices, but they are born of human nature.[/quote]

That is what i was saying. each society would have a different idea of what a vice is, yet they all come from humans.

And in regards to rape being morally admirable; Think about soldiers say.. oh, I don't know a few hundred years ago. They go into a village, [i]rape[/i] and pillage, and leave. They would have been proud of their 'conquests' and perhaps even bragged. That sounds like raping isn't a bad thing at the least then, doesn't it?

Murder; In Nazi Germany, many were murdered, yet the soldiers or people would have been proud of their achievments. It was wide-spread killing, but quite often in cold blood. Therefore murder. Under orders, but still a form. Also, I believe there were private cases of individuals killing each other. The Mafia and vendettas. The Mafia is a society that views murder as something that isn't immoral, if not a good thing.

To re-iterate my standpoint on vices; Each society has different ideas on vices, and what are vices in one, may not be in another. Yet for all societies, vices come from the actual people.

EDIT******

Also, in our society, would you stone a woman for infidelity? Would you not allow a female to be seen in public? Would you be free to beat your wife whenever you wanted? No. Not in our society, but in others it is condoned. See my point?