Anime Teen Titans: Anime or Not?

[Cahoots34]

Cartoon Network's newest brainchild mimics Japanese creations but seems to stumble a bit. Shall it be included in the glorious throng of Asian animation, or simply dubbed a "wannabe"?
(And why, if you please.)

[Manic Webb]

I love how an anime fan gets the chance to make a cartoon in anime-style, and they call it a wannabe...
That's sarcasm, by the way.

The producer of Teen Titans, Glen Murakami, says that the animation and art styles he use in Teen Titans are influenced by both his favorite anime and classic American cartoons. It's not a wannabe.

What I don't get is how someone could say an American show tries to be anime, but messes up on some parts. Is there an exact formula to making a cartoon exactly like an anime or something? On top of that, can anyone compare a kid's cartoon like Teen Titans to a kid's anime, instead of a mature anime like Cowboy Bebop? It gets really annoying when somebody says "this show made for younger kids isn't nearly as good as this anime made for adults."

[Kwai]

The question becomes 'How do YOU define anime?'

[Cahoots34]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Metatron [/i]
[B]The question becomes 'How do YOU define anime?' [/B][/QUOTE]

An excellent point, Metatron, and the main reason why I asked this question. My definition of anime was previously a very rigid, "if it don't come right outta Japan, it ain't no anime" credo. However, Teen Titans (while not very original in any way save its origin/style relationship) looked very much like an (unappealing) anime. In essence, that is why I have not ventured an opinion on the topic, but instead gone for opinions. Yes, I _do_ like doing things the hard way.

[Dagger]

As far as I can tell, Teen Titans has a more cohesive storyline than most American cartoons, and it does seem to skew a bit older than, say, SpongeBob.

If the creator stated that it wasn't anime--only influenced by anime--then I see no reason to label it as such. Teen Titans falls into a different category. It may not be a work of incredible genius, but it does succeed in blending certain traditions of American and Japanese animation without letting any one aspect seem too out of place.

~Dagger~

[Trigunner]

Teen Titans isn't an anime because it is an American-made cartoon. If it isn't made in Japan, it isn't an anime.

[Kwai]

So... if a Japanese producer, along with an entire team of Japanese artists make an animation in... lets say Australia, then it automatically doesn't become anime?

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mr. Period [/i]
[B]I would never do such a thing as to call that...steaming pile, anime. THERE IS AND NEVER WILL BE A TRUE AMERICAN ANIME. [/B][/QUOTE]

My, aren't you optimistic. [/sarcasm]

I haven't met a single fan who [i]wouldn't[/i] leap at the chance to be involved in the creation of an anime series or OAV. What if that show was based in the U.S.--would you refuse? What if it had 26 episodes, a plot that extended continuously from start to finish, and Japanese characters? What if it centered around giant robots, female androids, or a "magical girl"?

That, of course, is a set of very rigid definitions, and I personally feel that anime can encompass so much more. I'm just not sure what it'll take to convince you.

Is anime, by definition, something created in Japan alone? Well, what if a show's characters were designed solely by American artists? What if its artistic style more closely resembled that of Disney than that of CLAMP? What, then, would you call it?

I'm not saying that Teen Titans is anime. It's more of a hybrid than anything else, and until U.S. companies become more willing to take risks, I doubt we'll see any true American anime. But it's rather presumptuous of you to completely deny the possibility that anime could be produced here in the States.

Just look how many American webcomics fall under the category of manga, or at the very least are influenced by it.

~Dagger~

[Rockstar Haruko]

Let's also not forget that Japanese animation was influenced by American animation. I can't remember where I read it, but little details on Disney characters, like the big eyes (i.e. The Little Mermaid, Bambi), were adopted into anime. So I don't think that it's right to say whether something like Teen Titans is "wannabe" or not. Both kinds of animations have borrowed something from each other. They're even.

[Katana]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Metatron [/i]
[B]So... if a Japanese producer, along with an entire team of Japanese artists make an animation in... lets say Australia, then it automatically doesn't become anime? [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly It really depends also on how you view anime.
Teen Titans, really, is an American-made cartoon with Japanese elements. So how you define it, anime or cartoon, is basiclly what you think.
I would put Teen Titans into my "Middle" category of shows, where it sorta lies in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, because it's neither anime nor cartoon...it's like an anitoon or something (boy am I creative ^^).
I, personally, love Teen Titans. Some of the traits of anime (or at least to me) it has are:

-Developed characters: Characters that are more than "Hey, I'm here, that's it."
-Elements: The eyes (Raven, Starfire, and Beast Boy), the sweatdrops, the spazing dots (where it looks like spit, I guess), and all those others things you would find in anime that you wouldn't in cartoons.
-Simple plotline: What I mean by this is that most sucessful animes have simple and straightforwards plotlines, but that actually have meaning to them (such as Dragon Ball Z or Digimon). Cartoons really don't have any, it's just guys going on different "adventures".

Those are really all I can think of for the moment. So, my answer is...
Anime is in Japan and cartoons are in North American, and since Teen Titans is an anitoon, it's in the Pacific Ocean. ^^

[Arasoi]

[color=royal blue]In the end, I guess it's all just based on what your definition of anime is. I don't really know what to think of Teen Titans. What I consider anime to be is Japanese animation, but Metatron and Rockstar Haruko brought up good points as well.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Metatron[/i]
[b]So... if a Japanese producer, along with an entire team of Japanese artists make an animation in... lets say Australia, then it automatically doesn't become anime?[/b][/quote]

[color=royal blue]I used to consider anime to be any cartoon done by a Japanese artist, but this made me think about it more. If an American drew a cartoon and a Japanese producer drew the same thing, would they both be considered anime? Now, I think they both would. That makes the most sense, because then no one but Japanese people would ever be able to make anime, and that doesn't really make much sense to me.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Rockstar Haruko[/i]
[b]Let's also not forget that Japanese animation was influenced by American animation. I can't remember where I read it, but little details on Disney characters, like the big eyes (i.e. The Little Mermaid, Bambi), were adopted into anime. So I don't think that it's right to say whether something like Teen Titans is "wannabe" or not. Both kinds of animations have borrowed something from each other. They're even.[/b][/quote]

[color=royal blue]If Japanese animation was influenced by American animation, then it doesn't seem like it should really matter what the artist's ethnicity is. Both American and Japanese animation are connected, so I guess it's just a matter of opinion, and your own definition of anime.

And still...I remain undecided.[/color]

[Rockstar Haruko]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Katana [/i]
[
Those are really all I can think of for the moment. So, my answer is...
Anime is in Japan and cartoons are in North American, and since Teen Titans is an anitoon, it's in the Pacific Ocean. ^^ [/B][/QUOTE]

:laugh:This was hilarious! I couldn't help but laugh when I read this one, but it's so true. Funny, but true...

whew. I needed a good laugh.

[Gettles]

By the strictist sense, Teen Titans is not anime(which in my defonition is animation from Japan)

But really, I consider the show close enough. And really, if you like the show does I matter.

[gpeowyn]

strictly no but it comes close enouth to fool alot of amine fans out there. i said no rigth away cause the show was reffrenced in static shock by batman.

[Che]

Of course it isn't. Teen Titans may be a good cartoon but it's not even worth to compare to actual anime like Inuyasha or Trigun. I think it is a definate wannabe anime!

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]I love how everyone singles out X-Men Evo and Teen Titans as anime wannabe shows. Their catoons geared towards young people and comic book fans, not too different fro Pokemon, Yugi-Oh and Digimon. Sure, the artists were definatly influenced by anime, just as most anime artits were influenced by Disney, but they aren't copying some ridiculous anime formula (it isn't like they doing voice overs or anything, although that would be hilarious....an english recorded show re-dubbed with different, yet similar words)...[/color]

[TheGodlyME]

Okay, It's NOT Anime. It will NEVER be anime, and stop trying to say it is. THE main reason that it isn't anime is that it features PREDOMINANTLY American characters, is based on an AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE(by showing the american definition as a "super hero" that possesses so much power and is so blind never looking at the alternative that they are fighting against--sure, some anime is like that, but it is mostly american animation whose heroes are like that.)and has an EXTREMELY shallow storyline. Just because japanese people make it(which I doubt) it is still not anime. Anime is japanese. This is a poor american rip off to try and make a quick buck off of the growing anime popularity in America.

-and a quick reminder...part of the ACCEPTED definition of anime is "made in JAPAN." And when I say "accepted" I mean that it is the most common and widely understood definition.

Personally, I hate the show, because it features AMERICAN heroes. They are so shallow and pointlessly stupid to begin with. They have little or no character depth, are completely predictable, and you KNOW that they will always win against the easily distinguished evil that has no real reason to be evil outside of the fact that the writer says "okay, he'll be evil, and the heroes will stop him, send him to jail, and hope he sees the err of his ways and becomes good...which he never will....hahahahaha...so original" It is a very common thing to do in America, because we have a swollen head...we think that ANYthing outside of our acceptance is evil, bad, not even worth our time to consider. Take the war on Iraq(just for comparison). I'm not for it, but I'm not against it, either. I could really care less about the friggin' war. But the American government has brainwashed everyone in their reach, and who wants to be 'patriotic' that the Iraquis are all evil and should be killed. They have presented the idea that all middle-easterners are evil(except Israel, because we support them).

Now, I have strayed a little from the topic, but I really resent all these comparisons of bad american animation to good anime. It just sickens me that "Teen titans" can be on the same network as FLCL or Trigun and THEN people will mix them up and dismiss them into the same category--kid stuff--where FLCL or Trigun , etc. DO NOT BELONG. I could go on forever, but will spare your poor, brainwashed, feeble, etc., minds.

--Just a note: now you will probably say to yourself "this isn't what I think, so your stupid and wrong." Think about it before you open your friggin' word-hole!

[Dagger]

Out of curiousity, have you ever actually watched Teen Titans? And by that, I don't mean two or three minutes of some random episode. Did you at any point sit down to watch several episodes in consecutive order, all the while keeping an open mind, and being willing to consider that the show might possess [i]some[/i] merits?

[quote]"You KNOW that they will always win."[/quote]

1. Dragonball Z: Goku doesn't lose very often, now does he?
2. Yu Yu Hakusho: No matter how much the good guys get pounded, it's pretty obvious that they'll always come out on top.

Next time, think more carefully before you make such sweeping generalizations.

[quote]"THE main reason that it isn't anime is that it features PREDOMINANTLY American characters."[/quote]

1. Trigun: Does Vash look Japanese to you? I'm not saying he's American, but he sure as heck isn't Asian.
2. Hellsing: I don't know too much about HS. However, I do know that it definitely doesn't take place in Japan.

Have you noticed how many anime shows [i]don't[/i] feature Japanese characters? Many, such as RahXephon, have a highly diverse cast, with characters hailing from India, Africa, or the States, as well as from Japan.

[quote]"It just sickens me that "Teen titans" can be on the same network as FLCL or Trigun and THEN people will mix them up and dismiss them into the same category--kid stuff--where FLCL or Trigun , etc. DO NOT BELONG."[/quote]

1. Hamtaro: Teen Titans is definitely a bit more grown-up than this show.
2. My Neighbor Totoro: Who says that "kid stuff" has to be bad? Totoro is an anime [i]classic[/i], and unlike FLCL, I wouldn't have any qualms about showing it to my little sister.

~Dagger~

[G.D. Ryoko]

I don`t think Teen Titans is an anime and I don`t think that it`s a "wannabe" anime neither.(My definition of anime:What ever people decided to call it.) The author probably made Teen Titans like that to give it "an anime sort of style" being that anime is begainning to take America by storm.

And like some one said earlier, anime is based off American cartoons, so I read in Samurai from outerspace:A guide to understanding anime.

Anyway I think it`s sad to call Teen Titans a "wannabe" anime. I find it quiet diffrent from anime, except the animation. I really like Teen Titans alot.

[Purple Haze]

Teen Titan ist an anime. ts just a cartonn thet tries to add the anime style art and comedy. Its a pretty good show. I watch it almost every week. But if it was an anime it would be very weak.

[Semjaza]

This is slightly off the point as it doesn't really answer the original question, but some of you think way too highly about anime. If Teen Titans was an anime, it'd be weak? What do you watch?

In America, cartoons are normally aimed at the teen and under group. In Japan, many are aimed at adults and under. So why are cartoons in America made for younger audiences being compared to something like Cowboy Bebop that is obviously aiming at a totally different group?

Honestly, there is some REALLY terrible anime out there... but they do it better simply because it's from Japan? Do people even think when they write? Lord knows I was totally provoked by the likes of Miyuki Chan in Wonderland, Sonic X and Tokyo Pig. All three of which are aimed at totally different age groups.

Japan has absorbed Western styles and with the increasing popularity of anime and manga, many budding cartoonists are being influenced by and are consequently absorbing Japanese styles. Big freaking deal. Are the Japanese supposed to get incredibly annoyed when Western kids attempt to assimiliate the Japanese culture into their own by pretending they actually know Japanese and buying weird Japanese products? Should they be disgusted by the Tokyopop contests where people who aren't from Japan create so-called "manga"? Or any of the other people here who draw in that style but have never been to Japan in their lives?

I find it incredibly amusing that so many people in Japan have a very strong love for Disney (and other) creations, but so many anime fans in the US are so pretentious that they can't give anything else fair chance.

P.S., there are plenty of anime and manga that take place in the US and the supposed way of life here. Bean Bandit and Chicago come to mind instantly. That hardly defines [i]anything[/i].

[Shinmaru]

There should be another option on the poll..."who gives a crap?"

Honestly, I don't see why so many people have to be so high and mighty with things like this. They see one element of a show that's similar to anime (which anime probably took from some other form of entertainment) and the immediately scream "Rip-off! Rip-off!"

I haven't even been at OB for half a year and the number of threads that I've seen that are similar to this is astounding. So what if Teen Titans decided to "borrow" a bit of anime style? Who are you to say that it shouldn't be used outside of Japan? Elitist crap like that just annoys the hell out of me.

Besides, this is exactly how new and more interesting forms of entertainment are made - a person is influenced by another person's work and decide to integrate it with their own ideas to create their own style. It's been a standard for years. Hell, I doubt 99% of anime is truly original, anyway.

But it's from Japan, so I should automatically assume that it's the most incredible thing in history! Give me a break.

EDIT:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dagger IX1 [/i]
[B]2. Hellsing: I don't know too much about HS. However, I do know that it definitely doesn't take place in Japan.[/B][/QUOTE]

I haven't watched much Hellsing but I believe that it takes place in England.

[TheGodlyME]

Now, Dagger IX1, the first weak point you make, "have I ever watched an entire episode?" Yes. I have watched a complete 2 parts making a whole episode--that's one hour of drivel. I have watched other episodes as well, but not for more than 16 minutes at most. I just like to keep my feelers out so I don't get left in the dust.

Second: Fine, some anime does contain characters that will always win. Fine...doesn't matter. The character in an anime wins, a lesson is taught; a lesson that isn't "you go against Japan, you will lose..." That is what america puts across in their animation. I was pointing out the overuse of political propaganda. I suppose that I sould have clarified that further than: "They have little or no character depth, are completely [I]predictable[/I] , and you KNOW that they will always win against the easily distinguished evil that has no real reason to be evil outside of the fact that the writer says "okay, he'll be evil, and the heroes will stop him, send him to jail, and hope he sees the err of his ways and becomes good...which he never will....hahahahaha...so original" It is a very common thing to do in America, because we have a swollen head...[B]we think that ANYthing outside of our acceptance is evil, bad[/B] , not even worth our time to consider." I can see how you could have misconstrued that bit of commentary for pro-good-guy-should-always-win-because-it's-new-and-original. Should I say it a third time for you?

Third. Do Vash or Alucard look like Gigantor or Astro-boy? No. They don't beat the living *insert swear or vulgarity here* out of cliche characters that have been around for an unnecessary amount of time. (Batman is lots more than 10 years old, and they try, feebly, to keep him and his little co-horts in power.)(and fine; some anime do make different stories using the same characters or even sequels. And some, like Gundam, Sailor Moon, etc. plus a whole lot of other YOUNG CHILDRENS shows can become somewhat long. But I don't really support them.) Also; fine, there is a racial diversity in american animation, but it is to APPEASE the minority of the country and try to convert EVERYONE(you know, we used appeasement against the NAZIs and you can see how that turned out). In *most* anime, the cultural diversity is to show the point that there is a general cooperation between races or that there is more than just ONE country involved in the story. It could also just be that CRAZY sense of Japanese logic that there would be other races mixed in with the populous.

And Finally--

Yes, some anime is made for children, and some of it appeals to young adult-adult categories. Blah, Blah, Blah...America has that too, afghanistan has it, korea has it...it is quite common, so I don't really find merit with your complaint. Teen Titans was aimed at, get ready for this,TEENS! Hamtaro was aimed at the toddler-12 year old age group. Now you have just compared a kiddie show from japan with a TEEN-YOUNG ADULT show. I feel that this proves my point about just grouping all animation into one category. Also, I was merely making the observation that something that is a visual masterpiece(even though edited and dubbed) should still not be forced into the aforementioned same category as american propaganda aimed at people under 10 to try and get a higher recruitment into the army.(thank you GI JOE)

--Sorry for another looonnngg *essay* But I did say that I could go on forever with this topic before. --Just a note-this is the super-abridged version of my opinion. I could write multiple single-spaced pages worth of defense of it.
--Sorry if anything I said of NAZI-ism, or american propaganda, or anything else I said offended anyone in any way.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheGodlyME [/i]Now, Dagger IX1, the first weak point you make, "have I ever watched an entire episode?" Yes. I have watched a complete 2 parts making a whole episode--that's one hour of drivel. I have watched other episodes as well, but not for more than 16 minutes at most. I just like to keep my feelers out so I don't get left in the dust.[/quote]

Good for you. And I mean that in all seriousness, too. ^_~

[quote]Second: Fine, some anime does contain characters that will always win. Fine...doesn't matter. The character in an anime wins, a lesson is taught; a lesson that isn't "you go against Japan, you will lose..." That is what america puts across in their animation. I was pointing out the overuse of political propaganda. I suppose that I sould have clarified that further than: "They have little or no character depth, are completely [I]predictable[/I] , and you KNOW that they will always win against the easily distinguished evil that has no real reason to be evil outside of the fact that the writer says "okay, he'll be evil, and the heroes will stop him, send him to jail, and hope he sees the err of his ways and becomes good...which he never will....hahahahaha...so original" It is a very common thing to do in America, because we have a swollen head...[B]we think that ANYthing outside of our acceptance is evil, bad[/B] , not even worth our time to consider." I can see how you could have misconstrued that bit of commentary for pro-good-guy-should-always-win-because-it's-new-and-original. Should I say it a third time for you?[/quote]

My goodness, you sound bitter. The truly amusing part of this is that we probably share the same political viewpoints. However, you?ve chosen to indulge in the intellectual equivalent of self-flagellation?which is ultimately rather ironic, considering the implications of your username. Verbally beating up on America will do absolutely nothing to solve any of the world?s problems, regardless of whether they were created by us or not.

Okay. Calling Teen Titans ?propaganda? is highly ridiculous. Come on, you?re giving the writers way too much credit. The show was obviously intended?as nearly all television shows are, live-action or otherwise?to increase ratings and draw a larger audience. Darling, Cartoon Network has other things to worry about than brainwashing America?s youth.

Are you saying that shows like SD Gundam?which is currently running on Toonami, a programming block that targets young adult males?automatically abounds with amazing characterization and well-developed antagonists, simply because it?s anime, and not American animation?

My friend, you obviously see the world in the strictest shades of black and white, and for that, I can only offer you my sincere pity. It?s clear that nothing I say will be able to alter your firmly held convictions, but I still feel a duty to respond to your argument.

[quote]Third. Do Vash or Alucard look like Gigantor or Astro-boy? No. They don't beat the living *insert swear or vulgarity here* out of cliche characters that have been around for an unnecessary amount of time. (Batman is lots more than 10 years old, and they try, feebly, to keep him and his little co-horts in power.)(and fine; some anime do make different stories using the same characters or even sequels. And some, like Gundam, Sailor Moon, etc. plus a whole lot of other YOUNG CHILDRENS shows can become somewhat long. But I don't really support them.) Also; fine, there is a racial diversity in american animation, but it is to APPEASE the minority of the country and try to convert EVERYONE(you know, we used appeasement against the NAZIs and you can see how that turned out). In *most* anime, the cultural diversity is to show the point that there is a general cooperation between races or that there is more than just ONE country involved in the story. It could also just be that CRAZY sense of Japanese logic that there would be other races mixed in with the populous.[/quote]

On what are you basing the statement that racial diversity in American animation is included solely for purposes of ?appeasement?? I don?t feel particularly appeased, and until you provide some solid evidence, your accusations are little more than vehemently expressed opinion.

[quote]Yes, some anime is made for children, and some of it appeals to young adult-adult categories. Blah, Blah, Blah...America has that too, afghanistan has it, korea has it...it is quite common, so I don't really find merit with your complaint. Teen Titans was aimed at, get ready for this,TEENS! Hamtaro was aimed at the toddler-12 year old age group. Now you have just compared a kiddie show from japan with a TEEN-YOUNG ADULT show. I feel that this proves my point about just grouping all animation into one category. Also, I was merely making the observation that something that is a visual masterpiece(even though edited and dubbed) should still not be forced into the aforementioned same category as american propaganda aimed at people under 10 to try and get a higher recruitment into the army.(thank you GI JOE)[/quote]

Actually, I doubt that Teen Titans was aimed strictly at teenagers. Things are not always as they appear on the surface. Most of Britney Spears? fans are 12-year-olds, despite all her desperate efforts to attract a more mature crowd. SpongeBob SquarePants has a surprisingly large adult audience, as do the Powerpuff Girls. On the contrary, many of South Park?s avid fans are barely out of elementary school.

Once again, try not to make so many assumptions. And try not to drag politics into the discussion of an art form.

I may add to this if inspiration chooses to strike.

~Dagger~

[Semjaza]

Good post, Dagger.

Continuing with that, instead of writing pages more about other things perhaps you can explain the reasoning behind most of that, TheGodlyME? I can pull almost every example of what you've said and apply it to Japanese animation as well.

Japan doesn't beat the living hell out of their designs? Decades of anime characters that looked mostly the same with large eyes and soft hair... followed by decades of anime with slightly smaller eyes and extremely spikey hair? Countless anime characters look almost exactly alike and many uses the same style. Obviously there are large exceptions to this and some are better at the craft than others, but US animation is the same way.

Batman is a staple in America. He's been around for several decades and has fans of all ages. Yet he and other superheroes should just be ignored and put on the side? I should also add that anyone with a basic grasp of comics and animation would know that Batman has changed dramatically over the years. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other Western cartoons with more original ideas.

The whole hero-that-can-never-lose is [i]extremely[/i] prevalent in most Japanese anime series as well. I can name countless ones offhand. Both types of shows show character weakness, although I will admit that anime does it a bit more often. Again, because most of these shows are aimed at a different audience, they have different standards. Japanese animation has become something different too, as in the US cartoons and comics are looked at as something for kids, even if not all of them are. This isn't true in Japan, they're more open minded about it all for whatever reason. That obviously cannot be easily changed here.

There was a period in America where it was extremely hard for animation to even allow a character to be killed off, the ratings system wouldn't allow it and neither would most networks -- again because cartoons are thought to be for kids and back then Saturday morning was about the only time you had to see new cartoons. I remember when Dark Water was still new and they killed off a character... there was a bunch of complaints and controversy around it.

Things have changed since then obviousy... so using an example like GI Joe cartoon is rather pointless, especially since that was mostly designed to sell toys that were poorly based off the much better, larger originals. Other than that... Teen Titans fits into that category? I don't know where you get that feeling, other than the fact that it takes place there. I can't even think of many cartoons that have done that since WWII, and guess what? Japan had that too.

The whole cultural diversity thing is a joke too. What cutural diversity? In Japan people aren't used to black people, and I've found that they generally convey them very stereotypically, even in anime... if there even is a black person in them. What diversity is there? Mostly caucasian-esque people with different hair colors and sexual preferences? I'm sure the Center for Ditzy People with Blue Hair and Purple Eyes really applauds the efforts of Japan.

If a Western animated series did this people would say they are just trying to appease the minority. It's a ridiculous double standard, I think. Japan isn't more culturally minded than any other country. They have their prejudices as well. They have their misunderstandings. They still think they're far beyond every other Asian country, despite the fact that that idea and way of business has led them into an economic decline.

The basic point here is that I can easily take most everything you've said here, twist it slightly and apply it to anime. It sounds like your problems with Western animation simply stem from its origin, not any real provoking points considering how easily they can be dismissed. It's ironic that anime fans want people to be more open minded towards their choices in animation, yet they don't even attempt to apply this towards understanding US animation standards or anything. That's really what I am getting out of that post, a basic misunderstanding of things that are very similiar in both markets. So what is there to back up with several more pages?