Purgatory

[Artemis]

Okay, this question is more for those of the Christian faith.
All Souls' Day was last Sunday (Nov 2). As a Catholic, I spent particular time on that day praying for "the souls of the faithful departed" or all those who have died and are not yet in purgatory.
I know that my Protestant faiths do not believe in purgatory (the place ppl go before Heaven...not limbo...). I was wondering if someone could explain why you don't believe in it and if you pray at all for your loved ones after death.
Speaking of which, my B**** sister is about to have my head on a platter... :rolleyes:
~art~

[Vegitto4]

The reason that we dont believe in purgatory, is because it does not say in the bible that it exists. Not that I have seen anyway. if I happen to come across it in my life, I will be inclined to agree with you.

Yes, we do pray for our loved ones. If they have accepted Christ, then they are automaticaly in heaven. " To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" I believe the quote goes. (only if you have accepted his gift of course) So, if they are with the Lord, then we pray a prayer of praise, and rejoicing. if not, then ::shrug:: It's not fair to generalize the protestant's, even if I am one. This is just what i do and practice.

[Brasil]

Just a quick thought.

I'm not religious in the least, but...Purgatory is essentially the world right in the middle, not quite Heaven, not quite Hell, a place in which we exist for a good while and basically live out an average existence.

Sounds a lot like the world today. I say we're in Purgatory.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

Well, I was raised Catholic, but am learning more about the Pagan faith. So I guess beliefs are just how you look at things.
I have two examples of this, Exhibit 1. a few weeks ago one of my husband's friends was over here between a field problem and a break and we got to talking about Halloween or Samhain (Sow-win) for those of you who practice. This guy wanted to know why we celebrated a holiday for when the veil between the living and the dead when there's reincarnation (funny thing for a person to ask when said person is Baptist) My reply was it depends on your path. Much like the difference between sects of CHristianity, there are different sects of Paganism. So while for some there is rebirth, others believe that we die and can be talked to.
Example two happened on Tuesday when I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone who is also Christian. She told me that she would be praying for my husband when he went over to Iraq, even if he didn't think it would help. I explained that since it was positive energy being sent towards him, he'd stil receive it.
Also, my husband doesn't believe in Hell, but that's another story all together.

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]Just a quick thought.

I'm not religious in the least, but...Purgatory is essentially the world right in the middle, not quite Heaven, not quite Hell, a place in which we exist for a good while and basically live out an average existence.

Sounds a lot like the world today. I say we're in Purgatory. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] Not exactly..it comes from the latin verb [i]purgat[/i], which means to clean. And getting a straight definition from the dictionary, one finds this:

[i]Roman Catholic Church. A state in which the souls of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins[/i]

You are right that it is a plane between heaven and hell...but it's also a place where people make up for their sins.

I also see how one could say that one living now is in a purgatory. But we aren't "expiating" our sins. We are making more sins every day, if you think in accordance to religion.

Also note it says for those who have died in "grace." This further kills your idea somewhat. All of us are not born nor die in grace...I mean, we are born with original sin if you believe in the Christain faith. Which I don't...but that is also where my beliefs rely.[/size]

[Guest cloricus]

Hell is the watery area that surrounds the dome where the earth (which is flat) sits on top of an elephant which is on top of a turtle that eternally swims. Hell, which I think is spelt shoal, means watery underworld which is was hell is according to the Jewish faith, which catholic and others are spawned off. (Bet you thought it was fire filled didn't you.) Anyway this watery underworld surrounds this turtle and "god" is meant to be in a place that well isn't in this equation, heaven is just not described because it can't be for some reason.

Anyway just wanted to fill you in with the very rough outline since it's late and I didn't pay enough attention in religion to get names of stuff with correct spelling, maybe some one else can fill in the blanks. I just wanted to point out, before any one shoots off their mouth, that the whole idea of heaven and hell is based on a primitive people understanding of how the world worked. (Primitive because they believed it was flat and the sun wasn't the source of light.)

As well as describing additions to this original model is silly since it was a primitive understanding that didn't leave much room for expansion; like where would purgatory be if in side the dome was earth, out side was hell and some where else was heaven.

[edit] Just looking at references that I can find on google I cant find the stuff about the elephant and other bits, though shoal is spelt wrong, but the whole thing was said by the priest that takes my religion class and he has read the bible from it's geek version so I'm not really sure if it's my bad searching or his blatant misunderstanding that?s wrong with the above. I'll get back to it when I'm not as tired as I am.

[Justin]

The main reason is simple: God has not revealed it's existance to the Spirit-filled Church. Neither in His word, nor by his Spirit.

My second reason: there is no need for it. All sins are wiped away instantly as one submits to Christ by confessing his sin. All that is necessary is submission.

Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

James 3:6 - And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

These are all the references from the Bible that refer to hell with fire. None refer to it with water, and elephant, or a turtle. These are 7 of 55 reference to hell from Scripture, and the rest refer to it simply as a place for the dead or a darkened state of being. I've heard Native American references to the creation of the earth similar to the one in cloricus' post, so if I were you(cloricus) I'd try specifying my search by looking for creation stories outside the Bible. You may very well turn up results that way. But you probably won't find much if you're looking for links between that story and the Greek Bible, as the Greek text is the same as the text I presented above--simply in a different language.

To close this off, I'll simply say this: The Protestant Bible does not refer to Purgatory, and(to the best of my knowledge) neither does the Apocrypha...which is the only thing that makes the Catholic Bible differ from the Protestant Bible. Salvation isn't so complicated as that.

-Justin

[Adahn]

"Hell" is described by Jesus in his parables as the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In the old testament, it is referred to as Sheol, which is interchangeable with "the grave". In the Bible, it says that if we have sin in our lives, we are dead to God. The only way we can be cleansed of our sins is to die with Jesus in our hearts. It is also said that in order to be with God after death, we must hate this life we live in, and hope for the next. I ask you, who in this life has not wept or gnashed their teeth? If someone hasn't yet, they will some time, there is no doubt. If after death we are sent to sheol, the grave, then what is that place but the birthplace of death? If we in this life are dead, then what is the womb but the birthplace of death, the grave, sheol? Is it possible that when we die, we don't get sent into eternal torment, but rather we are reborn into death? When we die with Jesus in our hearts, we are not resurrected into life with God, we are born for the first time into life with God. Only one man ever lived before he died, and that was Jesus Christ, and he was the only one who was ever resurrected, because one must live, then die, then live again to be resurrected. Is it possible that reincarnation is what awaits non-believers? Not a reincarnation into a new life, but a new death? My soul would have a burden lifted from it if this were true. Everyone knows non-believers, some even love them. The thought of them suffering eternal torment is enough to cause a lifelong despair. I would like to know what you all think about this idea, because it came from me reading the Bible. I'm sorry that I didn't quote passages, but that would take too long, and my time is short. If you know the Book well enough, you will be able to discern what came from that book, and what came from my own mind.

Thank you.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1] Not exactly..it comes from the latin verb [i]purgat[/i], which means to clean. And getting a straight definition from the dictionary, one finds this:

[i]Roman Catholic Church. A state in which the souls of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins[/i]

You are right that it is a plane between heaven and hell...but it's also a place where people make up for their sins.

I also see how one could say that one living now is in a purgatory. But we aren't "expiating" our sins. We are making more sins every day, if you think in accordance to religion.

Also note it says for those who have died in "grace." This further kills your idea somewhat. All of us are not born nor die in grace...I mean, we are born with original sin if you believe in the Christain faith. Which I don't...but that is also where my beliefs rely.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, living out an average existence, not in Heaven, nor Hell, correct? Purgatory is the level between Heaven and Hell, in which we live out an existence where most suffer for their sins (crimes).

Our world [i]is[/i] a cleansing world, when you look at it, Mitch. Look at how many people are suffering from evil things they did. I'd say that's "expiating" for our sins (crimes). Would you disagree?

You've said that as soon as we're born, we're dead (or dying), so why now say that we're actually living?

Now, as we are born, we're immediately on the road to death, correct? I mean, that's what we're heading to as soon as we...begin. You just said you don't believe in Original Sin, so you must not believe that we are all born guilty, correct? So then...you believe that most of us [i]are[/i] born with Grace, as you don't believe in birth with Original Sin.

And, since birth is essentially death, we have all died with Grace and are now expiating our sins, which is the very definition of Purgatory, correct?

EDIT:

"All of us are not born nor die in grace...I mean, we are born with original sin if you believe in the Christain faith. Which I don't...but that is also where my beliefs rely."

Am I the only one who notices a slight contradiction here?

First you say none of us are born nor die in grace. Then, you bring in Original Sin, but then say you don't believe it...and then you say that's where your beliefs lay.

Do you believe that babies are Sinful? They seem pretty innocent to me...they seem pretty [i]graceful[/i] to me.

[anime_guy]

I am an educated Catholic, and I know a lot about this stuff.. i think... Well, acording to Vicous in the C.B. movie, the Earth and world we live in now is purgatory (sp?). I Can't quite remember what he said, but it was something like "When we die, we go to heaven or hell, we are in purgatory now, and only now" I beleive thats what he said...

[ChibiHorsewoman]

Hell is Texas pure and simple. :laugh: *looks around and sees Texans with pitchforks and torches*:nervous: Okay, maybe hell is AP Chemistry class where you sit behind a guy with a really hairy back, but atleast he smells good.:sleep:
I didn't really like this tho:[QUOTE]Is it possible that reincarnation is what awaits non-believers? Not a reincarnation into a new life, but a new death? My soul would have a burden lifted from it if this were true. Everyone knows non-believers, some even love them. The thought of them suffering eternal torment is enough to cause a lifelong despair. I would like to know what you all think about this idea, because it came from me reading the Bible. I'm sorry that I didn't quote passages, but that would take too long, and my time is short. If you know the Book well enough, you will be able to discern what came from that book, and what came from my own mind.[/QUOTE]
Please don't tell people that their soul is doomed for tourment unless I they like you do, it reminds me of ppl coming up to me at gas stations and telling me I should go to their church.:flaming:
If I took it too personally I'm sorry, but my grandma's been trying to save me since last October:therock: And I don't mean put me in a Ziplock bag. Trust me, it's not fun belonging to a non judeo-Christian religion-especially in the Bible Belt! And when your family gets into it along with perfect strangers it just gets worse!:angry2:
Okay, Rant over. More on purgatory:
The ancient Sumerians believed that all your afterlife just basically sucked and it didn't matter wether you were good or bad. You'd spend eternity eatting clay and wearing bird feathers. I think I'd take about anything over that-even taking AP Chemistry [i]in[/i] Texas!:rotflmao:

[COLOR=royalblue]If at first you don't succeed, maybe sky diving isn't for you![/COLOR]
[COLOR=blue]Why do they call it Perminant Change of Station when you aren't going to stay there perminantly?[/COLOR] [COLOR=darkblue]May the circle be open, but never unbroken, may the peace of the goddess be added to your heart. Merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again[/COLOR]

[Mitch]

[quote]Our world is a cleansing world, when you look at it, Mitch. Look at how many people are suffering from evil things they did. I'd say that's "expiating" for our sins (crimes). Would you disagree?
[/quote]

[size=1] I'd say it goes both ways.

In the sense of sins...I don't see why they are so harped on in religion. A person will sin, it's human nature to sin. Plus there's the whole line of what's good and bad...which I've brought up many times. (Such as what's bad to one person may be good to another, so really there are no concrete things which are most certainly bad or good when you look at it.)

As far as I see it...in what I believe, that is, I don't care if there is a god, or isn't. So thus I don't believe in that sense one..."expiates" their sins. On another hand...doing good deeds could be considered expiating one's sins.

It definitely goes both ways, really. I'd say people do more bad things than good when you really think about it, though. So I think we do more bad than good...so I suppose I disagree lightly.

I agree that being jailed for wrong is expiating one's sins...but does this make up with murder to God? This is one of the worst things, supposedly, to have done. I've often wondered if people that have killed in war are at this discretion heh.[/size]

[quote]You've said that as soon as we're born, we're dead (or dying), so why now say that we're actually living?[/quote]

[size=1] To live one must die, to die one must live. I don't see where in my post I said that as soon as we are born we die...I suppose you are just pulling this from elsewhere. It doesn't really apply here exactly.

Yes, as soon as you are born you do begin the long journey which eventually will end in your death in some point of time...it is what mortality's gift is, isn't it? And it is one thing that defines being human.

Anyways, I don't see how this exactly pertains to my first post lol...but hey, I'm just answering some words you put in my mouth from elsewhere. [/size]

[quote]Now, as we are born, we're immediately on the road to death, correct? I mean, that's what we're heading to as soon as we...begin. You just said you don't believe in Original Sin, so you must not believe that we are all born guilty, correct? So then...you believe that most of us are born with Grace, as you don't believe in birth with Original Sin.

And, since birth is essentially death, we have all died with Grace and are now expiating our sins, which is the very definition of Purgatory, correct?[/quote]

[size=1] I think you're misinterpreting my post. I'll get to this, but first:[/size]

[quote]EDIT:

"All of us are not born nor die in grace...I mean, we are born with original sin if you believe in the Christain faith. Which I don't...but that is also where my beliefs rely."

Am I the only one who notices a slight contradiction here?
[/quote]

[size=1]Here, let me run down my post quote-by quote and explain it better.

[quote]Also note it says for those who have died in "grace." This further kills your idea somewhat. All of us are not born nor die in grace...I mean, we are born with original sin if you believe in the Christain faith. [i]Which I don't...but that is also where my beliefs rely.[/i] [/quote][/size]

[size=1] What is in italics, I am saying that I don't believe in [i]the Christian[/i] faith, and that I do believe in original sin...."but that is also where my beliefs rely [in original sin]." I'm sorry for how vague this post was lol. I was short for time. [/size]

[quote]Now, as we are born, we're immediately on the road to death, correct? I mean, that's what we're heading to as soon as we...begin. You just said you don't believe in Original Sin, so you must not believe that we are all born guilty, correct? So then...you believe that most of us are born with Grace, as you don't believe in birth with Original Sin.

And, since birth is essentially death, we have all died with Grace and are now expiating our sins, which is the very definition of Purgatory, correct?[/quote]

[size=1] I didn't say a thing about original sin until the end of my post. Again, it seems you're putting words into my mouth lol.

Firstly, let me explain why I believe in original sin. This further goes to the point that good and bad are only what people make them.

When someone is born, I believe their very natures make them have both good natures as well as bad ones. As I've said, good and bad are so mistrued and conceptionally melded by what we've been taught and grown around...society especially. Saying this, I really think that any thing one does has its pros and cons--its wrongs and rights. Now just think about it...it is human to "sin," well, at least in what "sin" is by God's eyes.

Simply said, here is what I have to say, what's good is bad and what's bad is good; what's foul is fair and what's fair is foul.

All things, if you are open-minded enough, have some relevancy...and could be considered, looking and crawling around in their skins, both good and bad at differing views.

So really...sin is only a thing defined by God, often. If you look past this...sins are like the words of God.

I don't think that's what sins are. I think sins are nature--intuitional. This is why I believe in original sin. It's a differing concept to it than what the Puritans believed most certainly, but that is why it is my opinion heh.

Now what I've said is as soon as you are born you are dying as well as sinning--it's all born with you, all held together in one package. That's the basics of what I've said.

This is why I don't see why I should expiate my sins. Just tossing something aside and saying since I've realized it was bad that it's not a mistake any longer is...absurd to me. I want to keep my mistakes with me, remember them and feel how bad they were. Not just throw them off by just saying I am "forgiven" by some God that as far as I know may not be real.

I've gone off topic...but when it comes down to it, in its most explicit intentions, living in reality's plane of existence is not a purgatory to me. I don't even believe in purgatory in the first place...nor heaven and hell.

If you were notioning to that I was being contradicting in saying that well...yes, living is like a purgatory, but on another hand isn't...well, this is what I do. I see all sides to something..or try to. I was simply further delving to your point and seeing your side which is rightfully yours.[/size]

[Guest cloricus]

The funniest thing is why worry about hell? It's blatantly made up by a people who had no idea about biology and psychology therefore can be crushed extremely simply. A person has a structure of nerves, these are how we feel (and contribute) to what we see and play a small part in everything our bodies do to interact with the out side world. When we die these die, your soul does not have these, it cannot it is only meant to be your consciousness so when you arrive at hell what have you got to worry about? You cannot feel, see, touch or hear. So if there is nothing to fear in hell then it cannot exist since this is it primary perpuse. Now expand that, if purgatory is based on the whole "unearthly" idea as hell and heaven are and then the same applies with your senses, it has no point either. (No I'm not going to apply it to heaven because some one will come back with "Oh but god is [i]so[/i] great he'll do some thing!")

[KarmaOfChaos]

[color=deeppink]
Purgatory was something started by the Catholic religion to inspire fear. The Roman Catholic Church wanted control over the peoples of the land, and that was one of the ways they did it. They simply took some passages out of the Bible, interpreted them for their own gain, and made it so. This worked back then because not only was the Bible primarily written in Latin, most people could not even read or write their own language, much less one forgien to them.

Later on, purgatory became a means for the Catholic Church to acquire money. They told people that they could 'buy' their friends and relatives out of purgatory, slowly, piece by piece. Just another move to gain money from what had become no longer a religion but a powerful political force.

As for purgatory itself...it supposedly is a place just a little better than Hell. You suffer, this is considered atonement for your sins, and you are granted passage to Heaven. Bada bing.

Understand, I am not trying to demean the Catholic religion. Half of my family is Catholic. I, at one point, was Catholic, and was christened in the Catholic church. I am just stating where this idea came from. What it means to me today is...nothing. Nothing but a intresting philosophical idea.

-Karma

{PS: The name/word 'Hell' comes from the viking goddess Hel, who was insanely beautiful on one half of her body, and hideously disgusting on the other. She would lure men into her trap with the beautiful side, and then reveal her horrorific other side. The men would be revolted and terrified, but could not stop walking because of her beautiful half. Once they were in her clutches, she would have her way with them if she so chose, and then send them into a pit of firey, eternal torture where they might be slowly buried alive, burned, etc. The only thing mentioned in the bible close to Hell is Hades, which is more considered a resting place for the dead that a torture chamber. There is also mentioned a 'lake of fire' but that can be taken in so many contexts...I don't even want to go there.}
[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=purple]I think I definatly have to agree with KArmaofChaos on this one even tho I'm not against the Catholic faith.
I guess it's easier to coerce people into giving you money for a better life if you tell them that's what they should do. Of course when you add that if they don't do what you say you'll burn them at the stake-well you get a lot more believers that way.
Of course, when you celebrate Lamas for the church year It gets really interesting(read Catherine Called Birdy and you'll see it)
What I really want to know now is if Hell is endothermic or exothermic. Not that it has anything at all to do with the post, I just really want to find out. You know, on a sientific basis.
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=deeppink]If at first you don't succeed, perhaps skydiving is not for you.[/COLOR]

[Epid3mic]

Okay, since Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, and I am Catholic, and I do pride myself with a somewhat expansive knowledge of Catholic catechism, I will try to answer this best as possible.

Firstly, PoisionTongue, your argument for earth being purgatory would be quite valid, but you were going of something that Mitch said that was false. Purgatory is specifically the place between Heaven and Earth, not Heaven and Hell. This is because once you go to Purgatory, you are garunteed access to Heaven once you have finished your "sentence", if you will.

On the note about infants. Infants do inherit Original Sin. And they are, in a sense, sinful, in the fact that they have inherited this sin, not that they have commited some evil on their own free will. This is where Baptism comes in, christian children( and sometimes adults) are baptised to get rid of original sin, among other things.

On biblical support of Purgatory, there is in the Catholic bible. Not in most Protestant translations. Namely because Martin Luther got rid of certain books of the Bible that he believed were apocrypha. The most obvious text that supports Purgatory would be in the second book of Maccabees. I'm not sure of the exact lines, but it tells of Judas Maccabees, how he prays for his fallen soldiers so that they could have forgiveness in a world to come. It's a short book if I recall, you could find it if you looked.

To KarmaOfChaos, you speak with very little proof, but with an excess of opinion. It is very, and unfortunetely, true that the Catholic Church, especially during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, would sell indulgences among other evils, but that in no way reflects doctrine. I also understand that you weren't trying to demeane Catholics, but I would be very careful with your boldness, it could easily offend some people.

Lastly, on Hell. Hell can be represented by countless things. And where the word comes is quite irrelevent since there are many words for Hell. But all in all, Hell isn't a place. Since, a soul can't really go anywhere since it doesn't take up space, Hell is merely a state of being, namely the state of eternal seperation from God. Every physical description of Hell is just a way to say what Hell is like, since the nature of Hell is incomprehensible.

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Finally! Someone mentiones hades!

There are 2 waiting places: Paradise and hades. When you die, you don't go to heaven or hell... yet. Paradise is like a heaven, and hades is like a hell. Jesus made a reference to this when he was on the cross. Can't remember nor find exact scripture.

[Epid3mic]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crimson Spider [/i]
[B]Finally! Someone mentiones hades!

There are 2 waiting places: Paradise and hades. When you die, you don't go to heaven or hell... yet. Paradise is like a heaven, and hades is like a hell. Jesus made a reference to this when he was on the cross. Can't remember nor find exact scripture. [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe you mean when he told the good theif "Today you will be with me in Paradise". But, there's no reason not to assume he meant Heaven.

[Artemis]

Epid3mic, I officially love you! :love: I was seriously about to either puke or cry before I read your post.
First of all, I was referring to purgatory in a situation assuming Judeo-Christian beliefs (I directed this at them), but the majority of the posts have been from those of other or no religion.
For the most part, I think you talked about everything I was concerned about.
BTW, anime_guy, you're an educated Catholic, but the points on purgatory you offer are exclusively from CB. That doesn't help...:therock: :rolleyes: If you wanted to cite something it could have been the Bible or the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church). *cries*
Regarding Hell, cloricus, :sick: you don't realize that people can hurt on a spiritual level. Eternal separation from the loving Almighty Being who created you truly is Hell.
I'm sick of people trying to use science to disprove God. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." God is a spiritual reality. Science can never prove or disprove His existence.
Anyway, the purpose of "serving time" in purgatory is to cleanse yourself of the temporal effects of your sins. Your sins are forgiven, but you still have to own up to the wrongs you've done. Let's say you break your parents' window. After you say you're sorry and they forgive you, it's not over. You still have to get the window repaired. That's what purgatory does. It repairs all the spiritual windows you've broken. You have to be completely clean to enter Heaven.
Someone earilier mentioned that you can't be born or die in grace. No (except for Adam, Eve, Mary, and Jesus) came into this world in the state of grace. We were all born with Original Sin as people have discussed earilier. We are a fallen people and prone to make more mistakes. Baptism wipes away the Original Sin but not it's effects. We're still imperfect as humans. We still sin. Being "in the state of grace" at death means that you haven't committed any mortal sins since the last time you've been to confession. (A mortal sin is a serious sin, committed with knowledge of the seriousness and full consent of the will--meaning, you weren't forced in anyway.)
What I don't understand is people not believing in Heaven or Hell (or some sort of afterlife). Isn't it completely depressing to think that this is all there is? wow. Don't you think there must be some place to reward you or punish you for your actions on earth. Yes, that is a more primitive look, but I believe it's natural to humans to believe that.
Oh, and apologies for lumping Protestants together, but there's really no other way for Catholics to describe you all. You're mainstream Christians. Almost all of them I've spoken to say that their sect lets them believe whatever they want provided they "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior"... ("He's [I]my[/I] Jesus!!" "No, He's [I]my[/I] Jesus!!" "Nuh uh!!" "Yeah huh!!") ~sorry, :D I couldn't resist. :D
I guess the reason we group you all together is b/c we're so blatantly set apart. I know of Protestants who don't think we're real Christians. I could voice my opinions on Luther, but we'll save that for another time and another thread... :rollseyes:
Regarding Catholicism, Karma... :rollseyes: (THANK YOU, Epid3mic!!)
Let's just say you must have had some really crappy PSR teachers or religion teachers. (there tend to be crappier chruches on the coasts... ug...) Purgatory does have a religious background (Macabees, Paul praying for dead in Timothy, David still punished for sin after forgiven, etc.). Yes, there were some excesses in the Medeival times (the Church is not perfect), but indulgences are not wrong. You can get one by saying a rosary, receiving communion, going to Confession, and praying for the Pope. (yes, all those together...it's not too difficult) The reason for Latin was that, for a time, it was a universal language. It's original purpose was to be understood by all. It just took awhile to get that changed. I know you're not trying to slam the church (or at least that's what you claimed) but the assumptions you made were pretty bad. (again, I apologize if you had crappy teachers. They really frustrate me...)
Anyway, I think I'm done. People are gonna look at this, say "it's way too long", and not read any of it... Oh well... :rolleyes:
~art~

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Epid3mic [/i]
[B]On biblical support of Purgatory, there is in the Catholic bible. Not in most Protestant translations. Namely because Martin Luther got rid of certain books of the Bible that he believed were apocrypha. The most obvious text that supports Purgatory would be in the second book of Maccabees. I'm not sure of the exact lines, but it tells of Judas Maccabees, how he prays for his fallen soldiers so that they could have forgiveness in a world to come. It's a short book if I recall, you could find it if you looked.[/B][/QUOTE]

The "Apocrypha" are also known as the "Deuterocanonical" books. The reason for that is that it literally means "after the canon". The reason for this is that after the canon of scripture was determined, the Catholics then added other books which they deemed canonical.

neither Martin Luther nor John Wesley nor Calvin deleted any books of scripture, but the Catholic church later added what is now known as the "apocrypha".

However do not take that as a condemnation of your own faith. We are justified by God alone. In my view, as long as you have faith in the grace and power of God, rather than in your own strength, I consider you saved. [i]If[/i] you have any wrong ideas, I believe God will work in you to change your whole being towards his truth, as he has changed me in the year and a half I've had my own faith so far.

To the matter of purgatory:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B]Okay, this question is more for those of the Christian faith.
All Souls' Day was last Sunday (Nov 2). As a Catholic, I spent particular time on that day praying for "the souls of the faithful departed" or all those who have died and are not yet in purgatory.
I know that my Protestant faiths do not believe in purgatory (the place ppl go before Heaven...not limbo...). I was wondering if someone could explain why you don't believe in it and if you pray at all for your loved ones after death.
Speaking of which, my B**** sister is about to have my head on a platter... :rolleyes:
~art~ [/B][/QUOTE]

I see no issue in praying for those of our families or friends who have passed away without us knowing whether or not they are Christians.

However, I don't believe in Purgatory.

I believe in the Jewish concept of Hades, a place where dead souls stay until the resurrection, and I believe in the New HEaven and the New Earth, which is going to be far different than most Christians realise. We won't just sit around in clouds and have lazy bliss for all eternity- after all, laziness in extremes is clearly a sin, if you have ever read the book of Proverbs.

Rather, we will serve the Lord.

"The throne of God and the Lamb (Jesus) will be in the city, and his servants will serve him" (Rev. 22:3)

God made creation with a pattern of rest. Six days he worked, one day he rested. He made things that way so that we would do the same, and when the final judgement has come, he will restore things to the way he wanted them to be.

The whole point of Jesus' death is this:

God created with a purpose. That humans would live with him and serve him, and rest in him.

It all went horribly wrong because on of his angels went astray.

As a result of this, for all of history things ahve been getting gradually worse. Jesus came not just to save us, but to fulfil God's purpose for the world.

What happens when things go wrong, is that you correct them. Jesus came to remove the chains of our sins so that when the last day comes, we can all be pure and we can be part of the new earth- in which God will restore creation to the perfect way it was meant to be.

This doesn't mean that we'll be floating around in clouds, generally having a blissful time, or having eternal rest. We will have eternal fellowship with God, and we will both work and rest. But the curse of the fall will be removed, and work will be joyful rather than arduous and hard.

When we die, the Bible has references (somewhere) to the fact that we will be "with God". The Jews believed in a place where the dead will stay until the day of resurrection comes.

Catholics, there may be a few verses which can be interpreted as support of this place "purgatory", but do not overlook the verses which are in clear contradiction to this concept.

Luke 16:19-23

[i]"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."[/i]

The rich man was undoubtedly directed at the Pharisees. Despite the fact that they were very strict about their religious duties, their sin was that they had little faith and did nothing for the poor.

If the state of purgatory does exist, then why would this man find himself in hell, rather than in purgatory amending for his sins?

Matthew 25:31-36

[i]"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'[/i]

Clearly the point here is that Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats in accordance to their deeds.

However, this does not defy the teaching that people will enter heaven by grace, because we are all saved by grace. We do not deserve our salvation but we recieve it anyway. In the same way, by Grace, God works through us to do god things. Through us [i]he[/i] does the things described in the passage, thus despite the fact that we are evil we do good things because we are saved.

This is probably why the true saints sound so surprised in the passages to follow, despite the fact that Jesus has already told us it will happen.

However, it is said of the goats, the ones who did not do good things "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life". It does not say, "Some of them will go to atone for their sins, others will go straight to hell".

There are a few other verses in direct contradiction to the concept of Purgatory, but I'll not list them all here.

In reference to the story Epid3mic stated in 2 Maccabees- I've not read it, but the fact that Judas Maccabees prays for his fallen soldiers so that they could have forgiveness in a world to come, can be accounted for in two ways and I still don't have to believe in Purgatory:

1- The Deuterocanonical books were added after the canon, thus aren't always regarded as scripture. This comes from two reasonings-

a- If God can speak his word through the writings of men, then he can bind his word with the seals of men. The canon of scripture, though it was decided by men, was inspired by God in the same way that the words we read were. And if God decided that a certain set of texts were completely his word (and contained no untruth) then he wouldn't later add to them because he was, and is, and is to come. If there were to be later additions, he would already know it and delay the canon.

b- Since they were added after the canon was formed, they clearly aren't complete, pure Word of God, as all the books that were so were sealed at this time.

NOTE: This does not mean that God does not speak today- it only means that all he needs to say [i]in scripture[/i] has already been said.

2- As I probably said earlier, I see no reason not to pray for the deceased. This does not mean however that there is such a place as purgatory.

One reason to pray for the deceased is that they might be saved while they are still alive.

God is the one "who was, and is, and is to come". Not just in the fact that he was, 5 minutes ago, he is, now, and he is to come, in 5 mins time, but at this very moment he is present at all three, and in fact every imaginable point across all of time both past, present and future. This is in the same way that he is omnipresent with regards to space.

Now, if we pray to a God who is omnipresent in time, then our prayers for a person's salvation can be asked after they die, and answered before they die, correct? Because at that point before their death, God can already hear our prayer for them and can save them if they are willing to be saved.

However, let this not be a source from which you can draw justification for your own lack of evangelism.

If you plant no seed, you will see no flower. If you don't bring the gospel to your friends, your prayers for their salvation while they are in this life or the next will most likely be futile, for prayer without action is like empty words.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][size=1] To live one must die, to die one must live.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

There's a bible passage of something to that effect. But I forget which one it is..

[KarmaOfChaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Epid3mic [/i]
[B]
To KarmaOfChaos, you speak with very little proof, but with an excess of opinion. It is very, and unfortunetely, true that the Catholic Church, especially during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, would sell indulgences among other evils, but that in no way reflects doctrine. I also understand that you weren't trying to demeane Catholics, but I would be very careful with your boldness, it could easily offend some people. [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=deeppink]
Point conceded.

I'm very opinionated, and occasionally I toe the line as to whether or not I offend some people. Apologies if I did. I was simply stating my opinion on purgatory. This opinion is based on what I know, and regardless of how little or how great that knowledge is, I still hold true to it. Foolish, ignorant, whatever you want to call it. Until I learn more, something that proves me wrong, I stick to my beliefs. I have an open mind...but not so much so that anyone can stick whatever they want in it.

-Karma
{As always, no offense intended upon anyone.}
[/color]

[Artemis]

Dan L,
The books in the Catholic Bible have [I]always[/I] been there. Shortly after the Christian faith developed, the Jews wanted to distinguish their scriptures from the Christian scriptures. They decided to only keep that which they could find in Hebrew. If there was no Hebrew text, it was excluded. Unfortunately, some works written during various exiles had been written only in Greek. For years they had been accepted by Jews, but, at this point, they were scrapped. When Luther broke away from the Chruch, he decided to use the Old Testament that Jews had been using. Ergo, some of the books were missing. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of those books (which had previously been known only in Greek) were found in Hebrew.
To Catholics, "apocryphal" writings are those such as "The Gospel According to St. Peter" and "The Gospel According to St. Thomas". It seems they were written by others and were never approved as being "inspired".

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Artemis [/i]
[B]Dan L,
The books in the Catholic Bible have [I]always[/I] been there. [/B][/QUOTE]

However there was always some dispute at whether or not they were completely inspired.

[Guest application]

There are too many faiths that contradict each other, some say one thing exists and others say that they don't, but all in all no-one realy knows so all coments on the topic are completly hypotheticial. Although very though prevoking.

[Guest cloricus]

[quote]Regarding Hell, cloricus, you don't realize that people can hurt on a spiritual level.[/quote]That?s a joke right? Really? You can be hurt by nerves firing in your body, you can be hurt by chemicals in your brain making you feel sad and your intelligence can be upset at it's perception of the world around it. I fail to see how or even if the idea of a soul can "feel" is possible as it is missing the prerequisites that are needed for our current ideologies of things which if at some ?spiritual? level would be others things as they would be very differen?t, this background is reinforced every time I attend a biology class.

[quote]I'm sick of people trying to use science to disprove God.[/quote]And I'm sick of people trying to disprove science with quotes from people who had nightmares and wrote them down (revelations) and people who were in drastic situations and needed some thing to believe in so they reached out for the closest thing. An idea of a all powerful that favoured them over EVERY THING else on the planet (see psalms) so maybe, Artemis, you should think about your position before you attack facts and theories that are more believable than primitive ideas for people that cannot handle their lives. (Born against Christians.)

Also see [url=http://www.meninhats.com/d/20020906.html]Here[/url]. (Half aimed at Dan, all in good fun.)