Purgatory

[Artemis]

Cloricus, I'm not trying to disprove science. Science is a perfectly wonderful way to gain knowledge. However, I don't believe it's the [i]only[/i] way. It can only tell us about physical realities. It's a limited path of knowledge. You can't tell me that you've never heard of something unexplainable by science. The fact is, it doesn't account for everything.
BTW, your little comic was real cute... :rolleyes: But that's okay, b/c I don't quote the Bible left and right. Catholics believe it's not the only medium of Revelation... That, and we honestly don't read it enough to quote it like that... lol (I'm working on it though. A certain priest I know is trying to shove it down our throats...*cough*cough*Fr. Weldon*cough* Oh, I guess that was only funny for me, duorocks, and lovelyeowyn. Oh well.)
*shakes head* Anyway, cloricus, I'm really sorry that you can't imagine anything existing beyond the physical. That's too bad.
~art~

[TheShinje]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]
And I'm sick of people trying to disprove science with quotes from people who had nightmares and wrote them down (revelations) and people who were in drastic situations and needed some thing to believe in so they reached out for the closest thing. An idea of a all powerful that favoured them over EVERY THING else on the planet (see psalms) so maybe, Artemis, you should think about your position before you attack facts and theories that are more believable than primitive ideas for people that cannot handle their lives. (Born against Christians.)

Also see [url=http://www.meninhats.com/d/20020906.html]Here[/url]. (Half aimed at Dan, all in good fun.) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hm, they had dreams, about our time, that turn out to be true? I want dreams like that!

Actually, Cloricus, many Christians do use the realms of Science to prove their belief in the word of God, what they have discovered actually fits in with this ancient book, I ask that you check their amazing work out.

[url=www.answersingenesis.com] Answers in genesis Ministries[/url]

[url=www.carm.org][CARM][/url]

Both of these scientific christian websites cover everything scientifically, from Evolution, to how all the animals fit on the ark :p

now, back to the subject in question...[b] Purgatory.[/b]

I don't believe in a purgatorym simply because it's not written in the bible, amongst all things written about heaven there, I'd expect at least 1 verse which dtails a time of penencae before entering. I base my beliefs 100% on the Bible, see the aboive links.

Purgatory could be earth, as mentioned here in this thread, not quite heaven, not quite hell, a midway place, but that goes against the ideals of the Purgatory system, a place to repent in penence for your sins. Not everyone on Earth is doing that.

[edit] If you wish to read the Apocryphia, like the books of Maccabees, they can be found at the CARM website, which has published them all in full for references.

[Guest cloricus]

[quote]The fact is, it doesn't account for everything.[/quote]Yet.
[quote]I'm really sorry that you can't imagine anything existing beyond the physical. That's too bad.[/quote]I'm really sorry you believe in an old fairytale and think that if you suck up the a god who might or might not exist but in each case doesn't care that you will get into a place that you believe you will love but cannot define, and cannot be a place you'll like because liking some thing can be defined and explained.
[quote]Many Christians do use the realms of Science to prove their belief in the word of God[/quote]By selectively choosing what fits and what doesn't in much the same way a fundamentalist Christian will despise fags yet wear glasses. People who believe in the faith yet try and prove it are going against the bible by questioning god's probability, and they normally fail with it when you add a touch of logic.
[quote]To how all the animals fit on the ark[/quote]Let me guess, Noah made his wife sleep with the scorpions?

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B][i](Science doesn't account for everything)[/i] Yet.[/B][/QUOTE]

Don't be so foolish and arrogant to believe that human understanding will ever account for everything.

Science has been wrong before, is wrong now, and will be wrong in the future. The only thing in question is [i]what[/i] is wrong, and that is something you can not know at the time- While we are in false understanding we do not know it, but only when it is revealed to us to be false.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]I'm really sorry you believe in an old fairytale and think that if you suck up the a god who might or might not exist but in each case doesn't care that you will get into a place that you believe you will love but cannot define, and cannot be a place you'll like because liking some thing can be defined and explained.[/B][/QUOTE]

Lots of words in a little space doesn't always make a good point.


Nothing can be defined until it is experienced. Nothing can be adequately explained until it is experienced by the one you are explaining it to.

Therefore if we can't like something that is undefined to us now, then why is it that we enjoy new experiences that were never defined to us before?

And how are we to explain to you why we believe this "fairy tale" when you have not experienced the belief yourself? We can go on and on about what we believe, but if you haven't experienced it, all we say is but words to you.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]By selectively choosing what fits and what doesn't in much the same way a fundamentalist Christian will despise fags yet wear glasses. People who believe in the faith yet try and prove it are going against the bible by questioning god's probability, and they normally fail with it when you add a touch of logic.[/B][/QUOTE]

[i]EVERYTHING[/i] fits, cloricus. The question is, what does it fit into. A fundamentalist Christian will not despise gays because if they do, they have their fundamentals wrong.

Number 1: Love God
Number 2: Love your neighbour: ie. everyone.

The Bible may have a few things to say about the act of practicing homosexuality, but they are no more sinners than Shinji and I. "Fundamentalist" Christians may stick to the words of the Bible, but at the end of the day they prioritise their fundamentals wrong.

Some things may be sin, but we are sinners. Some people may seem to sin more, but we are called not to judge. Some acts are described as abhorrent to God, but we are told that he loves all and to do the same.

At the end of the day, one of [i]the[/i] fundamentals is that love takes priority over judgement, therefore any Christian believing otherwise is not a true fundamentalist.

And the same is true with many Christian scientists:

it's not a matter of "oh, I'll take this law cos it works with the bible, but leave that one cos it's not". It's a matter of priority: God and truth (scientific or otherwise) should be put first. Using lies to prove God is to dishonour his name, but to openly say "we don't understand how this fits in with the Bible yet" is to honour him through acknowledging our lack of real understanding, of both the Bible and science.

And cloricus, if I were you I really wouldn't bother ranting back about the value (or rather lack of it) of putting the Bible first alongside science rather than beneath it. I understand that's not how you'd even dream of doing things- but that's because we each have different experiences. I can't explain mine without you experiencing it. On the other hand, I can fully understand your point of view because I've been there. Thus I know that whatever I say you won't budge on the issue- I'm merely pointing out that there's more to it than you seem to think.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]Let me guess, Noah made his wife sleep with the scorpions? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sarcasm rarely ever proves or even makes a decent point..

[Kinoko Shima]

Being born and raised a Southern Baptist, I believe that there's not a Purgatory. Once you die, you'll be judged by God. If your name's not in His "Lamb's Book of Life" then you'll go to Hell. You can only get your name in this book by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You'll also "go over" your whole life in front of God. That'll determine how well you are rewarded in Heaven, if your name's in His book. If not, you'll go to Hell. Even if you beg for forgiveness, God will just say to you, "depart from me, for I have never known you" or something to that effect. I'm probably not exact in all my telling, but it's close enough. I would use quotes from the Bible, but I'm not able to get to one right now.
Another reaason I don't think Purgatory exists is because, as I've seen other people post here, it's not mentioned in the Bible.
Sorry my post's short and not in much detail, but as I said, I can't get to my Bible to get details.