Gaming The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

[Monkeyfeet63]

[QUOTE=armana]By 'in the end' you're refering to the scene where the five temple sages are standing on death mountain, right? This happens around the the same time as the celebration scene, which I always assumed happened directly after Ganondorf was killed, not back when Link was a boy again. That's why Ruto's grown up. Remember, it's after this scene when Link reappears in the temple of time in his original timeline. Why would everybody be celebrating something that hadn't happened yet?

When Link returns to his original timeline, everything else is as it was. Nothing is said about the sages dying so I think it's safe to assume that they didn't.[/QUOTE]


Yes, but we know ganandorf is trapped in the evil realm, so no matter what time period, he will always be there, intil release.

However would the sages not remain in the sage realm, seeing as how it is parrell in all times, just like the evil realm. So what I'm saying is, that if on a diffrent plane of existance, then they will remain there intil they are released. Just as how zelda never entered a new plane of existance.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]I assume you mean the Temple of Light when you say "sage realm"? That being the place where you wake up after first pulling the Master Sword out of the Pedestal of Time, and where the sages give you the medallions.

The problem with them staying in the Temple of Light is that it's located in the Sacred Realm. (Rauru tells you this when you first acquire the Master Sword.) So after sealing Ganondorf into the Sacred Realm, they'd have no way to get back to the temple without breaking the seal. Which would, of course, defeat the whole purpose of sealing him away in the first place. So the sages had to stay in Hyrule after Ganondorf was sealed.[/color]

[Monkeyfeet63]

It was called the sage realm I thought. And thats what I also thought, that they had no why to escape the sacred realm, because they sealed ganon from within, so they were still on another plane of existance when link traveled back.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]No, Rauru says specifically that it's the Temple of Light, located in the Sacred Realm. I don't recall it ever being refered to as the sage realm. ... The specific room in the Temple of Light where you see the sages is called the Chamber of Sages, but that's just a room in the temple.

There's a script of all the text from the game (the Text Dump one, under In-Depth FAQs) on [url=http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/game/197771.html][u]GameFAQs[/u][/url]. Take a look at Rauru's lines from when you first wake up in the Chamber of Sages:[/color]

[quote]Link...
Wake up...
Link, the chosen one...

I am Rauru, one of the ancient
Sages...
Ages ago, we ancient Sages
built the Temple of Time to
protect the entrance to the
Sacred Realm...
This is the Chamber of Sages,
inside the Temple of Light...
The Temple of Light, situated in
the very center of the Sacred
Realm, is the last stronghold
against Ganondorf's evil forces.
The Master Sword--the evil-
destroying sword that you pulled
out of the Pedestal of Time--was
the final key to the Sacred Realm.
Link...
Don't be alarmed...
Look at yourself...![/quote]
[color=#4B0082]And as for the sages sealing themselves in, the ending contradicts that, and I don't know of anything else that would support the theory. Besides, they were able to send Link in and out of the Chamber of Sages easily enough, so I wouldn't think they'd have any trouble returning to Hyrule before casting the seal.[/color]

[Monkeyfeet63]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]No, Rauru says specifically that it's the Temple of Light, located in the Sacred Realm. I don't recall it ever being refered to as the sage realm. ... The specific room in the Temple of Light where you see the sages is called the Chamber of Sages, but that's just a room in the temple.

There's a script of all the text from the game (the Text Dump one, under In-Depth FAQs) on [url=http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/n64/game/197771.html][u]GameFAQs[/u][/url]. Take a look at Rauru's lines from when you first wake up in the Chamber of Sages:[/color]


[color=#4B0082]And as for the sages sealing themselves in, the ending contradicts that, and I don't know of anything else that would support the theory. Besides, they were able to send Link in and out of the Chamber of Sages easily enough, so I wouldn't think they'd have any trouble returning to Hyrule before casting the seal.[/color][/QUOTE]

True, you would not see them in the end of the game if they did that. But the temple of light is within the sacred realm, so its a possibility tehy could not escape. especially if they were dead.

[armana]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']True, you would not see them in the end of the game if they did that. But the temple of light is within the sacred realm, so its a possibility tehy could not escape. especially if they were dead.[/quote]

Why would they not be able to escape? Link was in the same chamber, and he was able to escape from it. Surely the sages would be able to move freely between the sacred realm and wherever else at their will.

Ganon was SEALED in the realm by the sages and, therefore, he cannot escape. The sages weren't sealed anywhere by anyone so naturally they would be able to move in and out of the sacred realm as they please.

Yes, of course it is possible that the sages could not escape, and it's also possible that they were dead. But these assumptions aren't backed up by any evidence from the game whatsoever. Storyline speculation is fine, but in this case it seems as if you've just come up with some random idea regarding the plot of OoT. You need some solid factual information to back up your claims.

This discussion seems to be going round and round in circles, by the way.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']True, you would not see them in the end of the game if they did that. But the temple of light is within the sacred realm, so its a possibility tehy could not escape. especially if they were dead.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Yes, that [i]was[/i] a possiblity, but think about it logically. There are two two possible outcomes here: 1) The sages being sealed away and/or dead, and 2) the sages remaining alive in Hyrule. Those two outcomes contradict one another, so only one can be true.

To tell which outcome is true and which is false, you have to look at the evidence in the game. That evidence is the scene in the ending which shows the sages alive and in Hyrule. Therefore, since the evidence confirms outcome 2 as being true, outcome 1 must be false. Or, in other words, it shows that the sages being sealed/dead is no longer a possiblity.[/color]

[Athrun Zula]

[SIZE=2]Can we all just agree OOT is one of the best games there ever will be like we r all still playing it now even tho it came out more that 5 years ago it was the first game ever to get a 10 on game spot and it continues to entertain us ;) [/SIZE]

[Petie]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]I'm pretty sure the argument isn't on whether the game is good or not (though I will agree that the game is one of the best I've played to date). Considering Desbreko's last post though, I'm also pretty sure that there is no longer an argument, hehe.[/color][/font]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]Anyway, Des, I'm definitely going to have to agree with you on that one. Even if I had never played the game, your argument makes too much sense for there to be any other possible answer. Personally, I'm not sure how this even became a debate considering that you do see the sages after everything is over which would prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are still alive and not sealed away.[/color][/font]

[Monkeyfeet63]

Now this is not for the sake of the arguemnt or anything. But we see the sages walking around at the end of the game. But it seemed very simliar to the end of return of the jedi when you see yoda, anakin, and obi-wan standing around in the ewok village. Your not going to tell me they were alive and well too?

[Brasil]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']Now this is not for the sake of the arguemnt or anything. But we see the sages walking around at the end of the game. But it seemed very simliar to the end of return of the jedi when you see yoda, anakin, and obi-wan standing around in the ewok village. Your not going to tell me they were alive and well too?[/quote]
[center][img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24542&stc=1[/img]
[/center]

Were the sages all blue and glowy? Were Bill and Ted, and Robocop, and some old, crusty Indian, and a dwarf from LotR walking with them?

No? Then I guess referring to Force Spirits at the end of RotJ really is completely useless, because the two endings are completely unrelated.

[Annie]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']Now this is not for the sake of the arguemnt or anything. But we see the sages walking around at the end of the game. But it seemed very simliar to the end of return of the jedi when you see yoda, anakin, and obi-wan standing around in the ewok village. Your not going to tell me they were alive and well too?[/quote]

[size=1]Actually, that's not the same situation. We know that the Sages are alive and well because Link saved the day. Star Wars is completely different because Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anikan are actually dead. They're ghosts, spirits, the Force that stays with Luke. They're not alive.

The Sages are alive at the end of the game. Just, as you mentioned, in another plain of existence. Have you heard of a "parallel universe"? Pretty much the same thing.

[i]I really should play the game again. I miss it ;_;[/i][/size]

[Aaryanna]

Well I?m confused as to how you thought the sages were dead in the first place. They were alive when the seal was made, and it was made to trap evil. The sages are not evil so therefore the seal would not trap them so to speak.

I don?t think it?s similar to Return of the Jedi as those characters were already dead. At least that?s my take on it.

Now as to what I read earlier about favorite dungeons, well I love the spirit temple the best. It?s just a lot of fun going there as both a kid and an adult.

The one I really hate is the temple of darkness. I liked the actual temple itself, but beating the boss is really annoying! All it has to do is catch you once and you?re dead! Unless you have a fairy with you. :animesigh

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']Now this is not for the sake of the arguemnt or anything. But we see the sages walking around at the end of the game. But it seemed very simliar to the end of return of the jedi when you see yoda, anakin, and obi-wan standing around in the ewok village. Your not going to tell me they were alive and well too?[/quote][color=#4B0082]Heh, I think that's stretching a things a bit far. The scenes are kind of similar in how they're presented, true, but that's hardly grounds to say they have the same meaning. Brasil's sarcasm aside, they [i]did[/i] look exactly as you see them in the game previously when they're standing on Death Mountain. And when they're flying overhead, they look just like Link does when he's using one of the warping songs, so the power for that sort of thing certainly exists in the realm of the living.

And I think people have some misconceptions. ...[/color]

[quote name='Goddess']The Sages are alive at the end of the game. Just, as you mentioned, in another plain of existence. Have you heard of a "parallel universe"? Pretty much the same thing.[/quote][color=#4B0082]This is impossible, or at the very least, there's no evidence for it. The Sacred Realm is the only alternate dimension/plane of existence that we know of that's connected to Hyrule. (And before anyone brings this up, Termina from MM is a parallel universe, not an alternate dimension. We know this because Termina is completely different from Hyrule, whereas the Sacred Realm closely mirrors Hyrule, as seen in a Link to the Past where the Sacred Realm has been turned into the Dark World. Also, Holodrum and Labrynna from the oracle games are most likely different lands in the same world as Hyrule, as there's evidence that anyone can freely travel between the three.) That means, if the Sages are alive, they're either in Hyrule or the Sacred Realm. And I think I just made a pretty conclusive argument about why they wouldn't be in the Sacred Realm, heh.[/color]

[quote name='Aaryanna']Well I?m confused as to how you thought the sages were dead in the first place. They were alive when the seal was made, and it was made to trap evil. The sages are not evil so therefore the seal would not trap them so to speak.[/quote][color=#4B0082]The first bit here is right, but then it starts to fall apart: The seal on the Sacred Realm was made to seal in Ganondorf, who is indeed evil, but the seal affects everything. There's conclusive evidence for this in A Link to the Past, where perfectly good people were trapped in the Dark World with no way out. (Remember the various talking trees and the storytellers scattered about? Not to mention the maidens, who were descended from the sages.) So, presuming the sages had actually sealed themselves into the Sacred Realm, they wouldn't have had any way to escape short of breaking the seal.

I've missed talking about Zelda storylines and theories. There hasn't been a good discussion like this on OB for far too long. :)[/color]

[Aaryanna]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]
The first bit here is right, but then it starts to fall apart: The seal on the Sacred Realm was made to seal in Ganondorf, who is indeed evil, but the seal affects everything. There's conclusive evidence for this in A Link to the Past, where perfectly good people were trapped in the Dark World with no way out. (Remember the various talking trees and the storytellers scattered about? Not to mention the maidens, who were descended from the sages.) So, presuming the sages had actually sealed themselves into the Sacred Realm, they wouldn't have had any way to escape short of breaking the seal.

I've missed talking about Zelda storylines and theories. There hasn't been a good discussion like this on OB for far too long. :)[/color][/QUOTE]

Oh! I didn?t know that. But then I haven?t played A Link to the Past yet. Or the oracle games either. The Wind Waker was the first Zelda game I?ve actually played and I?ve since then borrowed The Ocarina of Time and Majora?s Mask.

I didn?t know that the seal would affect absolutely everything. >_<

Okay if you follow the logic that the seal affects everything then later in the series there is possible proof that they had to be alive at the end of the game. The proof is in The Wind Waker. I say that cause in order to stop Ganondorf the sages had to be awakened in order to create the seal. In the Wind Waker in order to [spoiler]restore the power to the master sword, Link had to awaken the next sage of that temple since Ganondorf killed them to get rid of the power in the sword. If you follow that logic then they had to be alive for the seal to exist. After all how else would their still have been sages in the temples unless they had found a successor to take their place as a sage? Not only did they need to pray to maintain the power of the master sword but probably to maintain the seal as well. [/spoiler]

It?s definitely a possibility. ^_^

Hehehe! Now I think I?ll run off and find someone to lend me A Link to the Past.

[Monkeyfeet63]

Ha. Yeah, then the wind waker complicates everything farther. And I at this point admit defeat. This is because, as I was discussing this conversation with my friend Stuart yesterday I had a sudden epihany. First was I don't know how to spell it, and second that wind waker's events completely make the sages not existening as their live forms in hyrule null and void.

As we all know, in wind waker ganon's seal is broken and he escapes the sacred realm. He then starts doing what he promised he would do in Oot. He started killing of the sages ancestors. Leaving only two left. That means the sages had to pass on their ancestory to others.

However one could argue that because the species is completely diffrent, and link and tetra were not known to have direct realtions with the orginal link and zelda, that the sages spirits are reborn within the ancestors whether or not their family. So even if the sages died than their spirits would be travelled along. We can only assume though, that when ganon kills an ancestor he finds away to seal that power away as well.

And for where I got the idea of the sages dieing, was from a gamefaqs article. Where one guy said "Impa then runs of to the shadow temple, and is killed then awakened as sage, jut like the others" I tought this was plasible, as there still from these boards is no plausible evidence that says there alive or dead. Everyones "facts" still are based on abstract ideas that were left open by the game. Which are fantastic when it comes to creating a conversation piece.

Which in conclusion. I seem to find the idea of them dieing. I'm not talking about them returning to life or not. But them dieing while link is an adult very sad. Its much more dramatic. And I can't find any other reason of why the sages would be prompted to say things like "Link, remmeber we always be friends."

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]About the lineage of the sages, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really based on ancestry. In OOT, when you go and awaken the sages, they don't seem to have any connection with any predecessors. And you'd think there would have been other sages before them since Rauru, the sage of light, was obviously around before the new sages were awakened. Also in TWW, Medli and Makar don't seem to have any relation to the sages before them, yet they awaken as the new sages of earth and wind. So my current theory is that certain people just posses the qualities necessary for being a sage, and if the right circumstances arise, they can be awakened as such.[/color]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']And for where I got the idea of the sages dieing, was from a gamefaqs article. Where one guy said "Impa then runs of to the shadow temple, and is killed then awakened as sage, jut like the others" I tought this was plasible, as there still from these boards is no plausible evidence that says there alive or dead. Everyones "facts" still are based on abstract ideas that were left open by the game. Which are fantastic when it comes to creating a conversation piece.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Well, here's the problem: That never happens. I don't think you ever even see Impa at all while you're an adult until after you defeat Bongo Bongo and you see her in the Chamber of Sages, awakened as the sage of shadow. I think Sheik tells you she's gone to the Shadow Temple to try and seal away the evil spirit again, but it never says anything about her, or any of the other sages, dying.

I'm not quite sure what's abstract about the idea of the sages being alive after Ganondorf is sealed, though, when you clearly see them in the ending. Yeah, that scene can be interpreted in different ways, but the literal interpretation -- which fits all the evidence, as I've shown -- is that they're alive. To me, the theory that they die seems a lot more abstract. So sure, you don't get something like this...

[URL=http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sagesalive0uc.jpg][IMG]http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5185/sagesalive0uc.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

...but the evidence is still pretty solid.

Either way, though, you're right about it making a great topic for discussion.

Oh, and that's one of Saria's lines that you mentioned, isn't it? I always figured she said that because she'd be living life as a sage, dealing with everything that entails, while Link would go back to live an at least semi-normal life. (Or at least try -- the events of MM kind of screwed it up, but that's another story.) So they wouldn't really be seeing each other nearly as much or maybe even at all after that. The thought of the sages dying had never even crossed my mind until you brought it up.[/color]

[Aaryanna]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63'] Which in conclusion. I seem to find the idea of them dieing. I'm not talking about them returning to life or not. But them dieing while link is an adult very sad. Its much more dramatic. And I can't find any other reason of why the sages would be prompted to say things like "Link, remmeber we always be friends."[/quote]

I thought that the line was because now she would be a sage and the duties of being a sage came first. Unlike regular people most of her life would now be spent in the temple where she is a sage. The game doesn?t clearly state everything that they do, but it seemed pretty obvious that living in a village or being married or having kids wasn?t something that they had time to do. Hence the phrase we will always be friends.

Also the sage of water says something along the lines how she wanted to declare her love but now as a sage she couldn?t do that anymore, so I figure that it?s the same for her. She will be a sage now and won?t have time for a normal life.

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]About the lineage of the sages, I've come to the conclusion that it's not really based on ancestry. In OOT, when you go and awaken the sages, they don't seem to have any connection with any predecessors. And you'd think there would have been other sages before them since Rauru, the sage of light, was obviously around before the new sages were awakened. Also in TWW, Medli and Makar don't seem to have any relation to the sages before them, yet they awaken as the new sages of earth and wind. So my current theory is that certain people just posses the qualities necessary for being a sage, and if the right circumstances arise, they can be awakened as such.[/color]
[/QUOTE]

Interesting, cause that?s what I thought too, when the new sages in The Wind Waker seemed to have no connection to the previous one I figured that if it was more likely that a sage was chosen based on having the necessary qualities to be a sage. I figured that whether or not they were related didn?t matter.

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]
I'm not quite sure what's abstract about the idea of the sages being alive after Ganondorf is sealed, though, when you clearly see them in the ending. Yeah, that scene can be interpreted in different ways, but the literal interpretation -- which fits all the evidence, as I've shown -- is that they're alive. To me, the theory that they die seems a lot more abstract.

Either way, though, you're right about it making a great topic for discussion.

Oh, and that's one of Saria's lines that you mentioned, isn't it? I always figured she said that because she'd be living life as a sage, dealing with everything that entails, while Link would go back to live an at least semi-normal life. (Or at least try -- the events of MM kind of screwed it up, but that's another story.) So they wouldn't really be seeing each other nearly as much or maybe even at all after that. The thought of the sages dying had never even crossed my mind until you brought it up.[/color][/QUOTE]

I would have to agree that theory that the sages are dead is what seems abstract. Since they worked together to create the seal and since they are all sages, it only seemed natural to me that they would be seen together at the end. They had finally succeeded in restoring peace to Hyrule. So they were quietly watching the people from a distance since their duties as a sage meant they would no longer be a part of normal life.

It never occurred to me that they were dead either until I read this thread.

[Monkeyfeet63]

Yeah well thanks. Yes I admited their in no actual lineage. So if we all think of the game as if the sages are dead, then well it might make the game a little more dramatic. And for those against the ideas of happy endings, just go "I bet the sages died", thats what I like to do. Makes a tear come to my eye when the sages give their final messages.

[joshdude89]

On the thing about starting back at Ganon's tower after you beat the game or starting as a kid or something. I have beat the game a few times and I will sit through the "The End" scene for about 10 minutes and nothing will happen. Does it work on the N64 version

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']Yeah well thanks. Yes I admited their in no actual lineage. So if we all think of the game as if the sages are dead, then well it might make the game a little more dramatic. And for those against the ideas of happy endings, just go "I bet the sages died", thats what I like to do. Makes a tear come to my eye when the sages give their final messages.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Eh, I've never felt the need to add any grief to OOT's ending. Navi's departure already gets me bawling. :animecry: ... Okay, so not really, but I still like OOT's ending as is. I think it's one of the best in the series.[/color]

[quote name='joshdude89']On the thing about starting back at Ganon's tower after you beat the game or starting as a kid or something. I have beat the game a few times and I will sit through the "The End" scene for about 10 minutes and nothing will happen. Does it work on the N64 version[/quote][color=#4B0082]Um...not exactly sure what you mean here, but the game doesn't save after you beat it. So if you hit reset or turn the power off after the ending (which you have to do, otherwise it'll just sit forever), you'll be back wherever you last saved your game when you load the save file again.

When I beat the N64 version for the first time, I had last saved just before the door leading into Ganondorf's chamber. So when I loaded my save file again after watching the ending, I started back at the entrance to Ganon's Castle. And I'm pretty sure the GCN ports, including Master Quest, do the same thing as well.[/color]

[Monkeyfeet63]

Not just the ending. The ending is good. I'm just saying thoughout after the sages become sages. I like the whole link meeting up with zelda ending. So your right to say that doesnt need improvement.

[armana]

[quote name='Monkeyfeet63']And for where I got the idea of the sages dieing, was from a gamefaqs article. Where one guy said "Impa then runs of to the shadow temple, and is killed then awakened as sage, jut like the others" I tought this was plasible, as there still from these boards is no plausible evidence that says there alive or dead. Everyones "facts" still are based on abstract ideas that were left open by the game. Which are fantastic when it comes to creating a conversation piece."[/quote]

Ahh, that's right. Kakariko village was on fire, and you met up with Impa when the shadow thing flew out of the well. I guess this COULD imply she died. I can't actually remember exactly what happened in that scene, except that it was one of my favourites in the game. So cinematic, heh.

But yes, the game is way to open-ended to draw any solid conclusions. These conversations are always interesting though - the game's storyline is complete enough to leave us satisfied, yet it also leaves us free to have discussions like this. And therein lies another awesome aspect of the Zelda series.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='armana']Ahh, that's right. Kakariko village was on fire, and you met up with Impa when the shadow thing flew out of the well. I guess this COULD imply she died. I can't actually remember exactly what happened in that scene, except that it was one of my favourites in the game. So cinematic, heh.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Not quite. It's Sheik that you meet there, who says this after you get smacked around by the evil spirit thingy and then wake up:[/color]

[quote]Looks like you're coming around...

I believe Impa has gone to the
Shadow Temple to seal it again,
but...she will be in danger without
any help!
Link!
Impa is one of the six Sages.
Destroy the evil shadow spirit and
save Impa!
There is an entrance to the
Shadow Temple beneath the
graveyard behind this village.
The only thing I can do for you is
teach you the melody that will
lead you to the Shadow Temple...
This is the melody that will draw
you into the infinite darkness
that absorbs even time... Listen to
this, the Nocturne of Shadow!![/quote][color=#4B0082]He [spoiler]*cough*she*cough*[/spoiler] says Impa will be in danger without your help, and to go save her. It implies that she could die if you don't defeat the spirit (aka Bongo Bongo), but obviously you do in order to advance in the game. So, then, this quote would imply that you have indeed saved her from dying by defeating Bongo Bongo.

Yes, I realize I'm beating a dead horse here. I just enjoy digging into all the little nuances of the storyline. :animesmil

Oh, and agreed; that's also one of my favorite cutscenes in the game. That, along with the one right after you beat the Fire Temple where the big ring of fire above Death Mountain disappears, rank at the top for me.[/color]

[armana]

Oh... duh, of course. Ha, I thought it may have been someone else.

Yeah, that death mountain cut scene is another of my favourites too! Here's some more:

-The sages/triforce introduction cutscenes told by the Great Deku Tree and Zelda. Very beautiful, and I loved the music in these scenes.
-King Dodongo's introduction! That scared the crap out of me when I was 11.
-The scene where you and Epona escape Lon Lon Ranch.
-The credits shots - OoT has one of my favourite video game credits sequences, along with Pikmin 2.

Of course, there are many others, such as the logo screen one and without a doubt the ending clips, but these are the few that stood out for me. ^_^

I'd also like to add that OoT has some of the most cinematic real-time cutscenes I've seen in a game to date. The camera angles and shot composition is just awesome in many places. Yet another area of the game that Nintendo excelled in. All this OoT talk just makes me wanna sit back down and play it again...