MA KO's Ban on Gay marriages

[SadClown]

Marriage between homosexual couples isn't about religion at all. It's about tax breaks and rights. Rights to be allowed to see your spouse when they are in the hospitol, to their estates if they die, to custody of your children. It's unfar that just becuase your straight, your given special treatment. Allowing homosexuals, who are PEOPLE just like hetrosexuals are people. Morality has nothing to do with this and untill u can prove u follow every word that the bible says, you shouldnt be preaching it either.

[Transtic Nerve]

It's called being Hypocritcal, every religion is hypocritical, every person is hypocritical. You can't really help it, 'cause humans are naturaly stupid, therefor they don't know any better. You shouldn't blame religious people for their views... just ignore them cause they naturally don't know any better.

Look, religion has nothing to do with gay marriage. It may have something to do with the opposition to gay marriage, but it's a worthless debate cause it has nothing to do with the side who wants gay marriage. You can ramble your religious nonesense all you want but it doesn't matter. I don't blame you, cause thats what that book says but... its a worthless argument, at least to me it is... we don't care about religion... well many of us don't, some do... but... thats up to them. The bottom line is this isn't about religious cermonies or religion period, it's about human rights.... I guess thats something that the bible doesn't advocate.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Some times I wonder why I even bother posting in these threads, but here it goes.

I have absolutely no idea how any rational person would consider comparing homosexuality to bestiality. A sexual act or preference between two consenting adults could not be more different from a sexual act between a person and a goat, mainly because there is quite a communication barrier between species.

I really don?t care about the religious implications of gay marriage because for quite sometime the United States has operated with the assumption that government and religion should be kept separate. I also think that the assumptions of marriage leading to family also has no bearing in the argument, for many married couples don?t have children, while many gay couples (especially lesbians) have children.

A marriage between two homosexuals should be recognized by the government because it helps to encourage and promote the tolerance that our country supposedly strives for. If two homosexual people are pledging to spend the rest of their lives together, shouldn?t they receive the same legal rights as two heterosexual people would?

I think I?ll present a hypothetical situation and maybe it will clarify my viewpoint a bit.

[i]Bill and Steve had been a couple for twenty years. Bill was recently diagnosed with Leukemia, and the doctor gave him eight months to live. Unfortunately, Bill?s health deteriorated faster than the doctor imagined. One week later he was rushed to the intensive care ward at a local hospital, Steve was devastated.

He drove to the hospital, but was not allowed to see Bill. Unfortunately the appropriate paper work had not been completed in time because Bill became so rapidly ill, and Steve was not admitted because he was not an immediate family member of Bill?s. Unfortunately, Bill had no immediate family, so there was no way to validate Steve?s request. By the time Bill?s attorney arrived at the hospital with the documents that proved Steve to be Bill?s executor, Bill had died. Steve was devastated because he couldn?t say goodbye.[/i]

It seems to me that the government doesn?t want to condone gay marriages because they don?t want to take the time to change the legislation that encompasses it. There is quite a bit that would need modification, health care laws, insurance laws, next of kin laws, hospitalization and disability laws, and marriage tax laws just to name a few. But it needs to be done, because nothing good has ever come out of segregating a specific community.[/color]

[SadClown]

I love how in the face of everything that has been said, those people who are pro-gay have time and again given solid evidence to support their claims, but those against it keep reverting back to this Beastiality thing...and yet, gay marriage is still not legal...whats the deal?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SadClown [/i]
[B]I love how in the face of everything that has been said, those people who are pro-gay have time and again given solid evidence to support their claims, but those against it keep reverting back to this Beastiality thing...and yet, gay marriage is still not legal...whats the deal? [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=violet]I agree. Beastiality has as much to do with homosexuality as pineapples have to do with the Russian Ballet. In other words, they have nothing in common. An animal cannot reciprocate your love anymore than a pineapple can do a pas de chat.
Yet for some odd reason the people (with the exception of DanL. and Justin who gave rather good arguments based on their beliefs and left stupidity out of it.) who were so dead set against same sex marriages equated it with beastiality.
I have to wonder if they equate their parent's marriages with something like that as well.
Don't try to use religion for your debate because the Bible mentions love more than hate. And if you say you love God yet hate homosexuals, you are a liar. It says so in 1John (I don't remember the verse) If a man says he loves God and hates his brother he is a liar. For how can he love God who he hasn't seen when he hates his brother who he has seen.
I agree with what you said about receiving the same rights as a heterosexual married couple as well. Why should someone in a same sex relationship be denied the same rights I have as a woman married to a man?
If this was involving races, you know someone would get on congress to change the bill. It's desturbing that in a nation so concerned with being PC and progressive that we can't be open minded enough to allow same sex marriages.[/color]

[Dan L]

From what I gather, TN, and everyone else.. what you're after isn't really marriage as it is at the moment (marriage being an ancient ceremony of commitment between a man and a woman, which happens to still go on today), but equality. I.e. a similar thing for gay couples- an official, legal commitment.

It seems you're not really after marriage in the traditional sense, but rather a change from the current stance that a heterosexual relationship has higher legal standing than a homosexual one.

And that I have no issue with. The law of a country should not oppress such relationships even if the country in general does not approve of them- and in a lot of cases the majority of the country does approve of them.

----------------

Side-note:

Incidentally, Bloodsin, God has convicted me to resolve this.

Proverbs 22:11 says "He who loves a pure heart and whose speech is gracious will have the king for his friend"

And now.. my speech has hardly been gracious here regardless of how right or wrong it may have been.

Thus I apologise :)

My point of view still stands. All except the bits where I called you a fool.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]I agree. Beastiality has as much to do with homosexuality as pineapples have to do with the Russian Ballet. In other words, they have nothing in common. An animal cannot reciprocate your love anymore than a pineapple can do a pas de chat.
Yet for some odd reason the people (with the exception of DanL. and Justin who gave rather good arguments based on their beliefs and left stupidity out of it.) who were so dead set against same sex marriages equated it with beastiality.
I have to wonder if they equate their parent's marriages with something like that as well.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

It's not so much about what the practice involves, Cheebs, that Justin and Dan are probably trying to contrast, but it's morality. How can you define bestiality as morally wrong if you say same sex marriages are right? The fact is, you cannot. Love and sex rarely accomodate eachother, and it's evident in bestiality that some animals DO and WILL have sex with humans. They obviously want it, humans want it, the human loves the animal; so it should be right, no? The point they are making is that both of them are unnatural, and morally wrong. It's a difference in opinions. We found ours on an absolute truth: religion.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]
Don't try to use religion for your debate because the Bible mentions love more than hate. And if you say you love God yet hate homosexuals, you are a liar. It says so in 1John (I don't remember the verse) If a man says he loves God and hates his brother he is a liar. For how can he love God who he hasn't seen when he hates his brother who he has seen..[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Nono, don't hate gay people. I don't. I just hate the act. I don't hate the liar, i hate the lie. To be honest, I love most people. It would be ideolistic for me to claim I love everyone, but when emulating the actions of christ (to be a christian) you must love every man, even the man that strikes against you. You can hate the strike, without hating the person.

My heart goes out to anyone who doesn't know God. Not just because they are choosing a path to an eternity in hell... but because they are chosing an eternity without the greatest relationship anyone could possibly comprehend.

As for my opinion on gay marriage.. i'm against it. Marriage is a religious practice, and homosexuality is contradictory to the religion. Why exactly would homosexuals want to utiilize an event that is directly contradictory to their own lifestlye (in sex, that is)? I don't think the gov't should go on a random crusade to try and abolish sodomy, because you can't. Whatever they want to do, they can, just keep it behind closed doors. Should it be protected as a marriage by law? No thanks, I'll elaborate later.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]It's not so much about what the practice involves, Cheebs, that Justin and Dan are probably trying to contrast, but it's morality. How can you define bestiality as morally wrong if you say same sex marriages are right? The fact is, you cannot. Love and sex rarely accomodate eachother, and it's evident in bestiality that some animals DO and WILL have sex with humans. They obviously want it, humans want it, the human loves the animal; so it should be right, no? The point they are making is that both of them are unnatural, and morally wrong. It's a difference in opinions. We found ours on an absolute truth: religion.[/quote][/b]

No offense but thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I would have thought someone as smart as you would never make a completely idiotic comment like that. I sure hope you can read over that and see how completely moronic that makes you sound.

Morals.... morals are bullsh*t, your morals are, my morals are.... morals are a personal thing.... therefor because you think it's morally wrong, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Just to you. Therefor you cannot generalize morals because they can't be. It's idiotic to think you can generalize morals to EVERYONE, when it's obvious they are strictly a personal thing. By generalizing them, you make youself sound like a stuck up idiotic prejudicial loser... which I know you aren't but with comments like that, you certainly make me think you are.

[quote][b]Nono, don't hate gay people. I don't. I just hate the act. I don't hate the liar, i hate the lie. To be honest, I love most people. It would be ideolistic for me to claim I love everyone, but when emulating the actions of christ (to be a christian) you must love every man, even the man that strikes against you. You can hate the strike, without hating the person. [/quote][/b]

It's still prejudice. Pride and prejudice my friend.... you're absolutely FULL of it. If you don't like gay people, which is pretty obvious you do, and don't BS me with that "I love everyone" crap, cause you don't... if you hate the act, you hate the person cause the person does the act. If I murdered your mother and sister or brother or whatever.... would you sit there and say "I love you Chris, but I hate what you did"?... lol no... you'd hate me for what i did, and you hate gay people for what they do, don't try to hide behind your little book and make excuses for hate, cause there is no excuse for hate.

[quote][b]My heart goes out to anyone who doesn't know God. Not just because they are choosing a path to an eternity in hell... but because they are chosing an eternity without the greatest relationship anyone could possibly comprehend.[/quote][/b]

My heart goes out to you too cause you have to hate so many things based on a religion of love.

[quote][b]As for my opinion on gay marriage.. i'm against it. Marriage is a religious practice, and homosexuality is contradictory to the religion. Why exactly would homosexuals want to utiilize an event that is directly contradictory to their own lifestlye (in sex, that is)? I don't think the gov't should go on a random crusade to try and abolish sodomy, because you can't. Whatever they want to do, they can, just keep it behind closed doors. Should it be protected as a marriage by law? No thanks, I'll elaborate later. [/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps you didn't read my post, which I will now quote for you. You probably didn't read the other one which talked about the difference between homosexuality and beastiality.

[i]The bottom line is this isn't about religious cermonies or religion period, it's about human rights.... I guess thats something that the bible doesn't advocate.[/i]

It's not about religion... marriage is just a word to us. If you don't want to call it marriage, call it civil union... whatever, doesn't f-ing matter. We just want rights... the same HUMAN rights (not animal) as straight people have. I don't expect you to understand, you don't know what it's like not to have rights or be gay for that matter... you're a white male christian... your kind has practically ruled this world for the last 1500 years.

Didn't God give us free will to do as we please? So why do you continue to ridicule us for doing what we please? I don't care if I'm going to hell... so shut up about it... I'm tired of you telling me what I should and should not be doing. You're wasting my time, and you're wasting your time. So just sit back, live your own little religious life and leave us the hell alone... is that so God damned hard? Live your own life, stop living mine.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]It's not so much about what the practice involves, Cheebs, that Justin and Dan are probably trying to contrast, but it's morality. How can you define bestiality as morally wrong if you say same sex marriages are right? The fact is, you cannot. Love and sex rarely accomodate eachother, and it's evident in bestiality that some animals DO and WILL have sex with humans. They obviously want it, humans want it, the human loves the animal; so it should be right, no? The point they are making is that both of them are unnatural, and morally wrong. It's a difference in opinions. We found ours on an absolute truth: religion.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]It is very easy to define bestiality as morally wrong and same sex marriages as right, as long as you don?t view it from a religious point of view. You wrote that love and sex rarely accommodate each other, and I couldn?t agree more. Those disgusting enough to practice bestiality may find a willing animal, but obviously a man or woman cannot knowingly infer that the animal they are screwing reciprocates their ?love? (hey, some sickos may love screwing a goat, but I really doubt that they love the goat).

Obviously homosexual marriage encompasses reciprocated love between two people that want to spend the rest of their lives together. Since both members that wish to engage in a union of love (not of sex, again I do agree that the two aren?t necessarily accommodating) are human should they not be allowed to do so under US law, which is supposed to be void of all religious elements.

I do understand that your religious beliefs affect your opinion on this subject, and I respect it, however, Christianity and America, although once bedfellows, parted ways quite some time ago. Therefore, we cannot define the government?s recognition of marriage, and the benefits and responsibilities they entitle, as a sacred, religious union. We have to be broader in its definition. Right now I would say that the government views marriage as a union between a man and a woman, nothing more and nothing less. The government does not entitle marriage to encompass children, an absolute permanent commitment, or even for both members to reside in the same residency. The US government has made so many allowances for marriage recognition and tax laws that not allowing homosexuals to marry should b considered nothing less than blatant segregation.

That being said, I don?t think that religious institutions should be required or influenced in any way to provide for gay marriages if they are legalized in America. I know this point is moot to most (I tend to think that most homosexuals just want government recognition), but it needs to be blatantly stated in the law. After all, if we are separating church and state, the separation needs to be apparent and absolute.[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]It's not so much about what the practice involves, Cheebs, that Justin and Dan are probably trying to contrast, but it's morality. How can you define bestiality as morally wrong if you say same sex marriages are right? The fact is, you cannot. Love and sex rarely accomodate eachother, and it's evident in bestiality that some animals DO and WILL have sex with humans. They obviously want it, humans want it, the human loves the animal; so it should be right, no? The point they are making is that both of them are unnatural, and morally wrong. It's a difference in opinions. We found ours on an absolute truth: religion.[/B][/QUOTE]
[color=violet]First of all, you may call me Chibi, CHW, or CHibi HorseWoman. Not Cheebs, this name was given to me by my husband and only he may call me Cheebs. That said and out of my system I will now continue on the actual topic
While it may be possible for sex to exist and love not to in the same context, (ie, a situation like rape where the victim most likely doesn't have love for the rapist) In this country and some of the more civilized nations you don't get married without loving the person you vow to spend the rest of your life with (I'm not going to get into arranged marriages because it's irellevent to what I'm talking about.) IN this case, I love my husband, who I vowed to spend the rest of my life with, so I'll have sex with him.
An animal has no reasoning skills so how can this animal say yes or no to sex with a human. I'm just going to come right out and ask, WTF have you been watching? It's unnatural for a human to want to have sex with an animal, but it's not unnatural for a human to have sex with another human. Homosexuals are human. Do a blood test on yourself and a homosexual, they have the same number of chromosomes.
As for religion, I'll take that up when I get to it, but I will have you know that I know quite a few homosexuals and bi-sexuals who go to church.
TN had a good point about morals. Screw morals. Everyone's are different as shown in this thread and others.
I find it moraly wrong to deny people the rights that come with marriage simply because of sexual orientation. Does that make me wrong and you right? Of course not, it' s just means we have different veiws on the subject.[/color]

[quote][b]Nono, don't hate gay people. I don't. I just hate the act. I don't hate the liar, i hate the lie. To be honest, I love most people. It would be ideolistic for me to claim I love everyone, but when emulating the actions of christ (to be a christian) you must love every man, even the man that strikes against you. You can hate the strike, without hating the person.[/b][/quote]
[color=violet]So, now homosexuality is a lie? I didn't know that. I'm afraid I don't know how touch that one, so I'll stay away from it. But I'll say it's still stupid.
What I believe John was saying in his gospel is you can't love God with hate in your heart. Which is what many people have towards homosexuality simply because it's not what they consider 'right'. This is what you're doing.
tho, I also find your veiw interesting since in your signature it mentions that you're a member of this board's Yaoi/ Shounen-Ai club. Can we say hypocritical thinking?[/color]

[quote][b]My heart goes out to anyone who doesn't know God. Not just because they are choosing a path to an eternity in hell... but because they are chosing an eternity without the greatest relationship anyone could possibly comprehend.[/b][/quote]
[color=violet]I believe I stated this before. Being homosexual doesn't mean you don't know God. That's an unfair assumption.
Sexuality isn't about religion, it's about how you were born. You don't choose whether you're gay or straight. It's the same as saying you choose if you're black or white, rich or poor or even male or female. You simply can't do that. It's impossible. If we could do that I'd be a beautiful skinny rich woman and my husband would have to be in the military to support us.
But I can't do that any more than a friend of mine can control that he likes boys and not girls.
And I'll say this again too, I know pleanty of homosexuals who attend church. Does this mean taht they're going to hell? Do you honestly belive in your version of afterlife that St.Peter is going to go to Valerie Crisler and say, I'm sorry, you were a lesbian and even tho you went to church and the worst thing you did was run a stop sign , you're going to hell. Then he'll turn to I don't know Jeffery Domeer (sp?) and say, yes,. you raped and murdered young women, but hey, you were straight and converted, welcome in?
If you answered yes, please stop reading now.
The Bible has many interesting laws to it. Why don't you use it to condone slavery again? People did that in the 1800's to legitamize why they had slaves. But was slavery 'moraly' right? Is it okay to keep a human in bondage? No, but people swore the Bible said it was just fine.[/color]

[QUOTE][B]As for my opinion on gay marriage.. i'm against it. Marriage is a religious practice, and homosexuality is contradictory to the religion. Why exactly would homosexuals want to utiilize an event that is directly contradictory to their own lifestlye (in sex, that is)? I don't think the gov't should go on a random crusade to try and abolish sodomy, because you can't. Whatever they want to do, they can, just keep it behind closed doors. Should it be protected as a marriage by law? No thanks, I'll elaborate later. [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=violet]Contradictory to which religion? Your religion, maybe, but to some other religions possibly not. Wicca doesn't have a book which states that men can't marry men. Satanists don't have one either. And what about atheists? Don't even [i]try[/i] to tell me you think an atheist is going to believe the way you do about marriage and religion.
But, TN and others have clearly stated that homosexuality has nothing to do with religion, so I'm not going to elaborate on that part. All these people want is recognization of their rights as humans who want to live together.
Are you trying to tell me that just because you'r religion says it's so that this should continue?
Like TN said, White Christian STRAIGHT men have run the world for 1500 years. You haven't been oppressed or denied your rights. No one has ever told you you can't get married to someone you love. And I highly doubt you've been told that you can't attend your religious services or had to fight to hold a ceromony.
It's time to quit hiding behind a book and join the world[/color]

[Semjaza]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought the issue at hand was that of civil unions between same sex couples. Not the sanctity of marriage, it's viability as a sacrament and the religions that encompass it. This is just a law thing, here.

In any case, people are going to believe what they think is right. If people think homosexuality is somehow wrong, I don't feel it's my duty to convince them otherwise. Besides, it's obvious that it is a battle that gets nowhere lol.

[James]

[color=#707875]Semjaza makes an important point. Let's stick to the subject. I'm not interested to hear why homosexuality is right or wrong -- and I'm particularly not inclined to listen to someone say that people are spending an eternity in hell. I find that offensive myself. And I find it arrogant to the extreme. None of us have the right to make such sweeping statements about a group of human beings -- regardless of whether we see them as "disgusting" or not. It's a very outmoded point of view, just as racism has become outmoded.

Things are moving in the right direction, but it's a shame that such biggotry still exists.

This thread has gone on so long that I don't really want to put my two cents in on the legal issue. I've spoken about it at length before...and I've explained [i]why[/i] it's not [b]at all[/b] a religious issue. Religion doesn't factor into the equation at all; it's a question of civil rights. As I've said, one's personal view should not be a basis for the denial of rights to others.

In any case, I expect everyone to keep to the topic. If I see another objectionable post, I'll close the thread without hesitation.[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=red]I have to agree with James. Everybody (including me at times) is completely missing the point.
MA passing the bill to allow same sex unions has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with politics.
Morals, religious beliefs, and other inconsequential arguements should be left at the door.
The question I originally posted was would you support this and why or why not.
Instead people just bring up beastiality and morals. Politictions don't have morals. They have a need for votes, that's all.
I say just pass the bill and get it over with. That way the rest of the Eastern states will follow suite.
Okay, I've said my peice.
PeAcE![/COLOR]

[Dan L]

I'd like to suggest that the more opinionated (particularly on the issue of comparison between beastiality and homosexuality) Christians on here accept that this thread has gotten to the point that everyone just keeps sharing the same point of view.

I know you're probably not doing this out of hate.. but trust me, it'll get us nowhere ;).

Free will is a reality and though we choose to go by certain beliefs which we have faith to be true, other people choose to go by different ones.

No amount of arguing your point on here is going to convince those who still don't believe it.

The struggle that is the topic of conversation here is one of rights, not religion. How can you claim that God gave free will when you wish to restrict people's rights to use it?. If gay couples want to get married as a matter of equal rights in the law, let them marry. It may not be the way God wants it, in our opinion, but it is [i]free will[/i]. I like seeing other people who put God above everything else, but that's a personal choice of your own, which you can't impose on others.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]No offense but thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I would have thought someone as smart as you would never make a completely idiotic comment like that. I sure hope you can read over that and see how completely moronic that makes you sound. [/B][/QUOTE]

Transtic, I can?t help but be offended by this. Our opinions differ, our rationalizations differ. How is my opinion any more or less stupid than yours in an issue as impalpable as homosexual lifestyle? I can?t control how you react to my difference in opinion. I choose indifference. Not on the topic, but the reaction.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]Morals.... morals are bullsh*t, your morals are, my morals are.... morals are a personal thing.... therefor because you think it's morally wrong, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Just to you. Therefor you cannot generalize morals because they can't be. It's idiotic to think you can generalize morals to EVERYONE, when it's obvious they are strictly a personal thing. By generalizing them, you make youself sound like a stuck up idiotic prejudicial loser... which I know you aren't but with comments like that, you certainly make me think you are. [/B][/QUOTE]

Then why is it "wrong" to kill? I?ve tried to address this viewpoint for a while now because it is so difficult to understand, and so hypocritical. By your philosophy, nothing is wrong, nothing is right. Only on the individual basis. If we are talking about politics, we aren?t talking about the individual. We are determining a general morality. That?s what a democracy is. You cannot honestly vote something is right, without believing it is morally right. Plato?s Republic determined that the whole purpose of civilization is to allow a general consensus of absolute moral right in order to structure a society upon. Without some sort of intrinsic right and wrong, how can you bear any claim to any sort of civilization. Where do the boundaries of legality lay? Once again, I wish you could understand that we only differ on this issue, sure it?s an issue that comprises your lifestyle. My lifestyle is influenced by Christianity, yours by homosexuality. It doesn?t mean I dislike you as a person. To say such demeaning things towards myself is an individual reflects poorly on your character, Chris.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]It's still prejudice. Pride and prejudice my friend.... you're absolutely FULL of it. If you don't like gay people, which is pretty obvious you do, and don't BS me with that "I love everyone" crap, cause you don't... if you hate the act, you hate the person cause the person does the act. If I murdered your mother and sister or brother or whatever.... would you sit there and say "I love you Chris, but I hate what you did"?... lol no... you'd hate me for what i did, and you hate gay people for what they do, don't try to hide behind your little book and make excuses for hate, cause there is no excuse for hate. [/B][/QUOTE]

How hypocritical. You can lambaste me with unsubstantiated conclusions about what I do hate, or who I hate, with such conviction that you insult me? That you pelt me with your vitriolic? Let?s keep this civil.
Firstly, I?ll take note that you compared homosexuality to murder. Fair enough. Isn?t there a previous argument I heard condemning people for comparing homosexuality to murder or a sin? How about the arguments that homosexuality doesn?t hurt anyone else? If I can?t use murder as an example, neither should you. Either way, I don?t know how I would feel In a situation. Of course I?d hate you if you killed my family, but that?s because I?m human. That doesn?t excuse the fact that I?d be sinning through my hate. I?m not trying to make any excuses here. We?re all sinning.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]My heart goes out to you too cause you have to hate so many things based on a religion of love.
[/B][/QUOTE]

As I?ve said before. I don?t hate gay people. I hate homosexuality as an act. Even so, hate is a strong word. I just disagree?. I just pity the choice.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]Perhaps you didn't read my post, which I will now quote for you. You probably didn't read the other one which talked about the difference between homosexuality and beastiality.

[i]The bottom line is this isn't about religious cermonies or religion period, it's about human rights.... I guess thats something that the bible doesn't advocate.[/i]

It's not about religion... marriage is just a word to us. If you don't want to call it marriage, call it civil union... whatever, doesn't f-ing matter. We just want rights... the same HUMAN rights (not animal) as straight people have. I don't expect you to understand, you don't know what it's like not to have rights or be gay for that matter... you're a white male christian... your kind has practically ruled this world for the last 1500 years. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don?t think you realize what you are asking. What exactly do you want? To be recognized as married? The same goes both ways. You can share property, you can share benefits, hospitalization costs, your will , etc. You can dictate that as you please through power of attorney. Just like any married couple. The only difference is health insurance. Why aren?t you advocating THAT instead of advocating MARRIAGE? By bringing your personal life choices, which I understand as abhorrent through a moral, biological, and personal standpoint into the government; you chose to bring it into the public and demand it?s acceptance through legality. Fine, I?ll not oppose it through Religion. I?ll take a biological stance. I oppose it through science.
Overall, I don?t think it?s right. So I?ll advocate against it. Welcome to Democracy.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B][/b]Didn't God give us free will to do as we please? So why do you continue to ridicule us for doing what we please? I don't care if I'm going to hell... so shut up about it... I'm tired of you telling me what I should and should not be doing. You're wasting my time, and you're wasting your time. So just sit back, live your own little religious life and leave us the hell alone... is that so God damned hard? Live your own life, stop living mine. [/B][/QUOTE]

Did you bother reading my post? I didn?t tell you to be Christian. I didn?t make you read that. I didn?t make you react to that. You are telling me to accept same-sex marriage as acceptable. I don?t. So quit wasting your time? I think not. This is what debate?s all about.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]First of all, you may call me Chibi, CHW, or CHibi HorseWoman. Not Cheebs, this name was given to me by my husband and only he may call me Cheebs. That said and out of my system I will now continue on the actual topic
While it may be possible for sex to exist and love not to in the same context, (ie, a situation like rape where the victim most likely doesn't have love for the rapist) In this country and some of the more civilized nations you don't get married without loving the person you vow to spend the rest of your life with (I'm not going to get into arranged marriages because it's irellevent to what I'm talking about.) IN this case, I love my husband, who I vowed to spend the rest of my life with, so I'll have sex with him.
An animal has no reasoning skills so how can this animal say yes or no to sex with a human. I'm just going to come right out and ask, WTF have you been watching? It's unnatural for a human to want to have sex with an animal, but it's not unnatural for a human to have sex with another human. Homosexuals are human. Do a blood test on yourself and a homosexual, they have the same number of chromosomes.
color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I?m sorry Chibi, but? are you ?denying my right to freeedom? of speech? *gasp* In all reality, I apologize, I?ll call you CHW from now on, if that?s ok.

Now, I don?t say it?s unnatural for a human to have sex for a human. But a man to have sex with a man is. And a woman to have sex with a woman is. I?m going to avoid the religious stance here and take a scientific stance. Biologically, it?s abhorrent. Just like bestiality. So I use my metaphor in that sense, If that helps.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]
[color=violet]So, now homosexuality is a lie? I didn't know that. I'm afraid I don't know how touch that one, so I'll stay away from it. But I'll say it's still stupid.
What I believe John was saying in his gospel is you can't love God with hate in your heart. Which is what many people have towards homosexuality simply because it's not what they consider 'right'. This is what you're doing.
tho, I also find your veiw interesting since in your signature it mentions that you're a member of this board's Yaoi/ Shounen-Ai club. Can we say hypocritical thinking? [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I suppose I?ll have to come back to religion in order to cover my bases here. No, homosexuality isn?t a lie. How you came to that conclusion must be an intricate process, indeed? The both are a sin, according to my religion, and wrong. Does that help you? I don?t hate homosexuals, I hate sin. Because I love God, I hate sin. The two don?t mix.

As for the Yaoi/Shounen-Ai club? well I didn?t know what that meant when I signed up. I just saw a bunch of character pairs and thought "oh must be some sort of dynamic duo thing" Lucky me, I don't speak Japanese.... And I love JTHM. My error. Feel free to remove me from the list *shrug* :-\

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]
[color=violet]I believe I stated this before. Being homosexual doesn't mean you don't know God. That's an unfair assumption.
Sexuality isn't about religion, it's about how you were born. You don't choose whether you're gay or straight. It's the same as saying you choose if you're black or white, rich or poor or even male or female. You simply can't do that. It's impossible. If we could do that I'd be a beautiful skinny rich woman and my husband would have to be in the military to support us. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

WOAH! Stop the train folks. You have got to be kidding me. You can?t choose if you are gay or not? Let?s identify this on a few levels. I love my dad, I lived with him for 18 years before heading off to college. I didn?t necessarily choose to love him, but the relationship developed through mutual input. Fair enough. I love my best friend, he?s a guy. I love him like a brother, not as a sexual partner, or a husband, but we have a strong relationship. If we wanted to live together and share everything, we could, by power of attorney.

However, saying a man can?t be held responsible for his own actions. Engaging in homosexual behavior, or even getting married is a [b] conscious, choice[/b]. It is not, by any means, intrinsic or involuntary. Gay people can live with eachother and have sex with eachother. Just don?t expect me to say it?s right through my personal vote. As I?ve said: welcome to Democracy.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]
But I can't do that any more than a friend of mine can control that he likes boys and not girls.
And I'll say this again too, I know pleanty of homosexuals who attend church. Does this mean taht they're going to hell? Do you honestly belive in your version of afterlife that St.Peter is going to go to Valerie Crisler and say, I'm sorry, you were a lesbian and even tho you went to church and the worst thing you did was run a stop sign , you're going to hell. Then he'll turn to I don't know Jeffery Domeer (sp?) and say, yes,. you raped and murdered young women, but hey, you were straight and converted, welcome in?
If you answered yes, please stop reading now.
The Bible has many interesting laws to it. Why don't you use it to condone slavery again? People did that in the 1800's to legitamize why they had slaves. But was slavery 'moraly' right? Is it okay to keep a human in bondage? No, but people swore the Bible said it was just fine. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Church isn?t what gets you to heaven. For a person who quotes the Bible, you should know this right? The only way to God is through Jesus? salvation. Simple as that. Church is a place of worship at it?s most fundamental purposes. Oh great, I quoted God again. Sorry, I just need to correct you on that. Now, I could lie every day for the rest of my life. I could lie and lie and lie. I could steal and murder. I could go to church at the same time. But that doesn?t mean I?m going into heaven. Hating someone is a sin right? And the Book of John says with sin you can?t know God. Then how can you sin through homosexuality and still expect to be a Christian? As for Jeffery Dahmer, he can be saved. The salvation of Christ is offered to anyone who wants to receive it. Also, running a stop sign isn?t a sin.

As for slavery. Slavekeeper?s moralities were different than yours. For someone who disdains my use of religion and morals, you sure bring the issue up a lot. The Bible says "everyone is created equal in the eyes of the lord." Slavery is wrong. I could quote a few more parables, but I would like to keep this off religion ok?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][color=violet]
[color=violet]Contradictory to which religion? Your religion, maybe, but to some other religions possibly not. Wicca doesn't have a book which states that men can't marry men. Satanists don't have one either. And what about atheists? Don't even [i]try[/i] to tell me you think an atheist is going to believe the way you do about marriage and religion.
But, TN and others have clearly stated that homosexuality has nothing to do with religion, so I'm not going to elaborate on that part. All these people want is recognization of their rights as humans who want to live together.
Are you trying to tell me that just because you'r religion says it's so that this should continue?
Like TN said, White Christian STRAIGHT men have run the world for 1500 years. You haven't been oppressed or denied your rights. No one has ever told you you can't get married to someone you love. And I highly doubt you've been told that you can't attend your religious services or had to fight to hold a ceromony.
It's time to quit hiding behind a book and join the world[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I?m not trying to tell homosexuals what?s right and wrong. I?m telling you what I believe, just like you are. Hey chibihorse? you know a guy named Alexander the Great? You know, the one who ruled the greatest land mass under Macedonian rule in the Hellenic period of history and defeated the Persian empire? Yeah, apparently he was gay. Otherwise, nice number? not sure where you got that, but whatever. It?s doubtful that if people were gay (kings) they would talk about it. Nice how you forget the Sariphs, Ottoman emperors, Queen Elizabeth.

You have the right to everything a marriage encompasses except for the word?. (on and health insurance). As DanL put it, why not advocate for something different? Why marriage? Thanks for the "worldly" reference. Reading your opinions on homosexuality has opened my eyes. Homosexuality doesn?t make a person who he is, stop stereotyping.

I suppose I should take my leave from this topic. I figured I?ve covered my final bases with my rebuttals and you all know where I stand. If you have any further arguments or "enlightenment?s" to provide for me, by all means, PM.

As for the religion, I suppose you all misinterpreted it. I wasn?t trying to be demeaning, and obviously context was misunderstood. However, perhaps it?s good I?ve reverted to my good ol? scientific stance. It?s been fun debating. I hope you don?t hold this viewpoint so strongly that it will limit future relationships. We are all made up of varying opinions and ideas. I didn?t mean to offend anyone as much as was required. I?ll see you on the boards.

[Baron Samedi]

I can understand religious viewpoints on this... you view it as abhorrent. Fine, but if it doesn't involve you, give it a rest.

Beastiality and homosexuality can not be compared.

People should be free within the law to have free rights over marriage. It doesn't have to be a religious marriage, just a legal one.

Why should they be denied this right? If the marriage itself isn't tied into religion, then there is no problem.

They deserve recognition, as humans who love one another.

Why should this not be so?

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]Firstly, I?ll take note that you compared homosexuality to murder. Fair enough. [/b][/quote]

I was actually comparing murder to a hatred of an act.... just so happened to be homosexuality... I could have used any example instead of murder, just so happened that was the easiest one to use.


[quote][b]I don?t think you realize what you are asking. What exactly do you want? To be recognized as married? The same goes both ways. You can share property, you can share benefits, hospitalization costs, your will , etc. You can dictate that as you please through power of attorney. Just like any married couple. The only difference is health insurance. Why aren?t you advocating THAT instead of advocating MARRIAGE? By bringing your personal life choices, which I understand as abhorrent through a moral, biological, and personal standpoint into the government; you chose to bring it into the public and demand it?s acceptance through legality. Fine, I?ll not oppose it through Religion. I?ll take a biological stance. I oppose it through science.
Overall, I don?t think it?s right. So I?ll advocate against it. Welcome to Democracy. [/quote][/b]

I'm not asking you to let u be married... I'm asking you, as in the people of your religion and yourself, to shut up at religion and gays. I'm asking you to stop looking at it in a religious view and look at it in a human rights view. And if you think marriage is a religious ceremony, which it hardly is anymore (you can go to Vegas and see my point) then fine. I can respect that, cause I see your point. But that doesn't stop you from giving me the same rights as you do. Unless I'm legally binded to my parter, however it may be, through marriage or not, then I cannot get these rights.... If straight people can get these rights through the act of marriage, i believe gay people should have a similar, if not the same way, of achieving the same rights as straight people. Marriage, civil unions, whatever. I want it to be recognized that two PEOPLE, I cannot stress that word enough, can love each other, gay or straight... by denying any sort of union between two people, you are essentially denying that that love can exist. We just want to have the same rights as you. Thats all I'm asking. And I personally don't want to spend a million dollars trying to get those rights. I want them through a union with my partner, not a union with my lawyer.

[quote][b]Did you bother reading my post? I didn?t tell you to be Christian. I didn?t make you read that. I didn?t make you react to that. You are telling me to accept same-sex marriage as acceptable. I don?t. So quit wasting your time? I think not. This is what debate?s all about.[/b][/quote]

Yeah i read your post... when i said this I wasn't responding to your post, i was making a comment directly to you. I was telling you to shut up about religion. It isn't about religion, yet you continue to blabber what i see as nonsense. It may be to you, but this isn't about you. This is about us. And quite frankly, it's not your life, it's our life, so but the ***** out. Nothing in gay unions has anything to do with straight people. Democracy this is, indeed, but your life it is not. Therefor, I don't believe you have any reational stance in this manner what-so-ever. I cannot stop you from speaking, I'm just trying to say that you're wasting your time, because you have nothing to do with the matter at hand, you are a simple by stander who says his few words of disagreement. Those type of people are soon forgotten as the world revolves around them.

PS: I'm glad you were offended by what I said, cause I'm been absolutely offended by everything you typed so far. It's only fair. Welcome to Democracy.


[/B][/QUOTE]

[SadClown]

I think this thread has lost all point and has become nothing more than another argument about religion vs. homosexuality.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]
However, perhaps it?s good I?ve reverted to my good ol? scientific stance. It?s been fun debating. I hope you don?t hold this viewpoint so strongly that it will limit future relationships. We are all made up of varying opinions and ideas. I didn?t mean to offend anyone as much as was required. I?ll see you on the boards. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]Unfortunately, the scientific viewpoint that you've presented is shaky at best. Not least because there are dozens of researchers and scientists who tend to contradict it.

Moreover, homosexuality isn't exclusive to human beings; it's been discovered in various species around the Earth.

Additionally...you're telling us about having a love for a father/brother/etc. Yes, obviously, there is a [i]choice[/i] involved in phsysically having sex with someone else. But we don't choose who we fall in love with -- there's a difference between falling in love romantically, and having a love between say, a father and son.

Obviously people are going to be offended when their sexuality is attacked. If someone attacked you for being in love with a woman, you'd probably feel awful. You can't help being in love with that woman -- you care for her with all your heart. For someone to attack that would probably be shocking and uncomfortable. While I don't believe that TN should actually insult anyone, I also do sympathize with his response, at least in the sense that defending your humanity is never a fun or easy thing to do.

And finally...the Government allowing civil unions doesn't amount to a public acceptance of homosexuality. People will or won't accept it. It's simply a matter of the Government recognizing that such relationships [i]do[/i] exist and that the people involved are being denied basic civil rights.

In the end, the topic could probably be discussed ad nauseum for a long time. At the very least, everybody's viewpoint has been demonstrated here. And I guess that's all we can ask for. Debating the topic is pretty pointless at the moment, because you're not going to get someone to agree that their own in-built emotions are invalid...nor are you going to change someone's devout religious beliefs.

So, I think that a continual discussion is probably only going to inflame things. And that's not what I want.

The only other point I'd make is that all people are welcome to the boards. And that, most importantly, nobody should be insulted or personally attacked. I just want everyone to remember that, regardless of what their personal opinions are.

I'll close this now -- I think Charles was already thinking of closing it a while ago, but he didn't. So now it's definitely time.[/color]