Anime Neon Genesis Evangelion

[eleanor]

[size=1] I read in an Animerica magazine was a joke that End of Evangelion was like Hideaki's revenge after getting so many complaints of the last two episodes.

OK, so the whole 'congradulations' thing was corny, but I didn't expect anything more. Anno stated that GAINAX worked hard to produce the last two episodes; it wasn't a slack-off job the company did to finally end the series. If someone expected nothing at all, it would be innacurate to say the last two episodes were horrible.

'A waste of time' is anyone's opinion, I suppose.[/size]

[duorocks17]

I think Eva was a good series, but i wouldn't put it in my favorites category though. What i liked most was the character development, and how the crisis/problems seemed so real to me. Like the issue Shinji had to deal with. On the other hand, i sometimes just sat there and watched, and esp. on the last two eposides, I just kept thinking "what is going on?" i didn't understand them, until i thought about them for awhile. My fovorite eposide is the one where Shinji and Askuka (sp?) have to fight the angel together, and they had to sinc. That was great!

[AzureWolf]

Sorry for beating a dead horse, but Q. Asuka replied with something that bothered me: [quote]Well, it does make it more realistic simply because Shinji doesn't have that stupid "I'm a hero, I can do this, as long as we stick together we'll accomplish anything!" attitude. He's just such a quitter and he never wants to go through with anything, never wants to take one for the team. He's selfish, he's a crybaby, and he's a young adult. Heh, such fun times.[/quote] :therock: I just need some clarification on how Shinji being a crybaby makes the anime more realistic. First off, if you consider the environment Shinji grew up in, it's very contradictory to think that he would be a crybaby. That shows a lack of development throughout essential growing years, which is very uncommon. Haha, I can't say I've ever met a young adult who wasn't competent and solid. In fact, Shinji should have had some type of foundation for thought and people interaction by his age.

It's really quite unreal. I do, however, agree with the idea that NGE is not a mecha anime, since the focal point and significance hardly falls on the EVAs. The only important purpose the EVAs served were an indirect characterization of the trio at certain points in the anime.

As for trying to leave out the ending when considering the series, there's something to be said about being able to finish what you started. I may have not liked most of EVA, but the ending was worse than the rest of the series. If you cannot support the fall of action with a solid, supportive, and most importantly, [B]complete[/B] ending, the story you built and developed will come crashing down. I have to say that EVA and Escaflowne suffer from this problem.

I said enough about Shinji, haha. However, I think pointing out the failings of the other two primary characters needs to be addressed. Rei just bores you, being completely passive and inactive. You knew from day-one that [spoiler]she wasn't going to get hitched with the sucker[/spoiler] at the end. Her lack of character may have a reason, but I don't think she had a reason to be there in the first place. Secondly, Asuka tries to take one of the hardest roles in any story: the strong, firm, independent female. Unfortunately, this task is a fine line, and she slips over to being just plain b****y. Few female characters can boast being strong and independent without being b****y. Asuka, unfortunately, is not one of them.

Haha, yeah, I have to go with Solo on this one too! I loved Outlaw Star because of how (relatively) simple and amiable everything was.

EDIT: Just so everyone knows, I'm going on what I remember when I watched EVA, which was in eigth grade (or before that). Also, no offense intended about the Asuka thing. I couldn't think of a better way to say it. :sweat:

[eleanor]

[size=1] Shinji's isn't exactly just a crybaby, persay. He was abandoned by his father at a young age, his mother died when he was little, and he's just very...self-hating. He's like an introvert; a reluctant hero. It does make it more realistic, in my opinion. You can't expect all people to rush in and save the world with an arrogant attitude proudly. Shinji was practically forced into doing something he didn't want to do, and unwillingly agreed to pilot the Eva-o1 further.

Just the fact that one grew up in a harsh enviroment doesn't mean one should be strong and self-confident. Lack of development throughout puberty is not uncommon, for one thing. It's just one of Shinji's many problems. Whatever, it's your opinion, but I think it makes it more realistic. At least, it's very original. In all the other animes before Evangelion, the hero is usually outgoing.[/size]

[AzureWolf]

[quote]Just the fact that one grew up in a harsh enviroment doesn't mean one should be strong and self-confident. Lack of development throughout puberty is not uncommon, for one thing. It's just one of Shinji's many problems. Whatever, it's your opinion, but I think it makes it more realistic. At least, it's very original. In all the other animes before Evangelion, the hero is usually outgoing.[/quote] Haha, just for future reference, you don't need to keep on saying what's an opinion and what's a fact. Within a discussion, it's differentiated by how you announce the statement. If it's vague, that's when you need to say "IMO" or "it's clear that." What else am I going to present but my opinion within a discussion? Thought I'd just point that out because - I don't know - it sounded rude when you said, "that's your opinion." Haha, maybe it's just me.

Anyway, lack of [I]mental[/I] development during puberty may be uncommon, but I wasn't talking about just puberty. Puberty is primarily a physical change, not a psychological one. I'm saying that within the many years of his existence, it's highly unlikely to have any kind of fundamental and "self" ideology. Shinji basically has no ideology whatsoever, and that's REALLY uncommon at his age, regardless of where you are from. Such a "on a whim" mental behavior is not very intriguing for me, so I didn't find anything realistic nor noteworthy within Shinji.

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Paulo [/i]
[B]ei to all those who agreed with me thnak atleast i know theres still a lot of NGE out there and to those who disagree thanks anyways [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=hotpink][size=1]Oh goodness.

Please go read the Rules on post quality so that perhaps someone here can comprehend exactly what you are saying. Thank you.[/color][/size]

[Sleeping Buddha]

I do love NGE but I don't rank it in my top 10 let alone me favorite of all time. The anime gets worse as the series goes on and they use way to many recyled frames. Plus Shinji is the most annoying freakn character of all time. Great but not excellent.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Shinji does has a self-ideology, really. He thinks he's scum, trash, invisible. In Hideaki Anno's own words, he states: [i]"A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide."[/i] That's Shinji's concept of himself, and what he is to the world around him. But after that, yes, Shinji did abandon the his way of understanding himself, only thinking that he was useless and there was no point to understanding himself. I'm not an expert or anything, but that's a description of a depressed person, and there's a lot of them out there.

Shinji also does not 'act on whims'. I don't know where you got that from the series, but he doesn't. There is nothing noteworthy about Shinji, because he is neither brave nor courageous when we first see him, and the only thought that forced Shinji to pilot the Eva-o1 was 'I must not run away'. He thinks he is nothing to the world, but he also thinks well of himself when Gendo praises him for the job he did when killing and angel and when his Sync ratio was going up at an impressive speed. He is, in fact, realistic.

At first glance, Evangelion's characters' personalities look cliche. One silent, one arrogant, one depressed, one carefree, one super-smart, and one evil. I mean, how many other animes follow that line of personalities? The only originality you get under those personalities in Evangelion is their real mental status and their past lives, which Anno did a great job depicting. [spoiler] So an insane mother who tried to kill her daughter and thousands of clones[/spoiler] isn't exactly the most realistic thing you can witness, but it's better than other animes. [/size]

[Trigunner]

Nope, I can't really say it is the greatest anime ever made, because I like the "up close and personal" kind of action. I'm not really interested in stuff like G Gundam and Eva because most of the time when you die in a mobile suit you just get blown to pieces just like that. There's no fun in it. I like to see two guys with swords or guns go at it and one of 'em gets his head or arm chopped or shot of and blood goes everywhere. I didn't really see a lot of that in Eva or G Gundam. Mecha animes are cool and all, but they just can't satisfy my violent tastes. (Hey I'm not a violent person, myself. I just prefer to see someone "go out in style.":devil:

[Dagger]

Yes. Because we all know that violence is the sole factor which determines whether or not a particular show is good. It seems that every single anime classic--from Neon Genesis Evangelion to My Neighbor Totoro--features gouts of blood and frequent helpings of grievous bodily harm. [/end sarcasm]

I personally don't mind gore, but your attitude irks me, Trigunner.

~Dagger~

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by maladjusted [/i]
[B][size=1] Shinji does has a self-ideology, really. He thinks he's scum, trash, invisible. In Hideaki Anno's own words, he states: [i]"A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide."[/i] That's Shinji's concept of himself, and what he is to the world around him. But after that, yes, Shinji did abandon the his way of understanding himself, only thinking that he was useless and there was no point to understanding himself. I'm not an expert or anything, but that's a description of a depressed person, and there's a lot of them out there.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE] That's only because the ones who could commit suicide did! :bellylol: Ok, bad joke...

How can someone who breathes, eats, moves, jumps, runs, and [I]lives[/I] think that he/she can't kill him/herself? It just doesn't make sense. I bet Mr. Hideaki Anno was just saying the suicide part to emphasize the [I]degree[/I] of Shinji's state, without any literal sense. I doubt Shinji wants to die, or else he would have done so. Also, I [I]REALLY[/I] doubt that's how your average depressed person thinks. Where have you seen or heard of these types of suicidal, yet mentally incapable and contradictory persons? Certainly not in a competent person, which Shinji is (meaning he has no mental ailments hindering him). [quote][B][size=1]Shinji also does not 'act on whims'. I don't know where you got that from the series, but he doesn't. There is nothing noteworthy about Shinji, because he is neither brave nor courageous when we first see him, and the only thought that forced Shinji to pilot the Eva-o1 was 'I must not run away'. He thinks he is nothing to the world, but he also thinks well of himself when Gendo praises him for the job he did when killing and angel and when his Sync ratio was going up at an impressive speed. He is, in fact, realistic.[/size][/B] [/quote] Yeah, my mistake. I meant with [I]respect to thought[/I], Shinji is a paper in the breeze. He's swayed or changed by the simplest things. You provide an example right there, with Gendo (haha, I don't even know who that is! It's been so long). Being so easy to sway, especially at Shinji's age, is really uncommon. By mid-teens, you acquire and gain a mental build that is almost immovable - [I]that's[/I] realistic. [quote][B][size=1]At first glance, Evangelion's characters' personalities look cliche. One silent, one arrogant, one depressed, one carefree, one super-smart, and one evil. I mean, how many other animes follow that line of personalities? The only originality you get under those personalities in Evangelion is their real mental status and their past lives, which Anno did a great job depicting. So an insane mother who tried to kill her daughter and thousands of clones isn't exactly the most realistic thing you can witness, but it's better than other animes. [/size][/B][/quote] I never liked this idea that behaviors that are realistic (I'm not talking about Shinji) are from this-or-that anime/show/series. Those showed ripped those personalities from the real world, and they should not be accredited with their creation. The real challenge of a supposedly "cliched" character is defining their uniqueness: those things that make them an individual. Rei didn't even have a personality or a point, but, again, that's what I can recall after (over) 7 years' time. As for Asuka, she fails as a source of any interest by what I mentioned/added in a previous post.

Just for a clarification, I'm not trying to argue that NGE is unoriginal - no sir, it's wholly original. What I'm trying to convince others is NGE has little realism. As you've pointed out in your last sentence, originality definately does not imply realism. Additionally, I'm not trying to fight over NGE's place as a milestone in anime. However, it also goes that being a milestone (or original) does not imply quality. Those are the two places where ([B]I think[/B]) Evangelion misses: quality and realism.

[eleanor]

[size=1] You also see no quality in Evangelion? Think of all the religious terms! The plot! The connections between this show and so many different religions and lengends...! How can you even begin to say that Evangelion has no quality? Such an original plot and viewpoint with excellent animation...this show is far from not having quality. What kind of quality are you looking for...character personalities? Can you find another anime other than about...[i]five[/i] that have good characters? Out of millions of animes, Evangelion has been dubbed 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time' by many people.

And how can you judge exactly how depressed people think? I'll tell you for a fact that Hideaki Anno became clinically depressed and partially [i]insane[/i] during the time he produced Evnagelion. Are you willing to argue about depressed people with someone who has actually gone through real depression?

*sighs*

Anyways, Shinji's personality is so weak and insecure that the only reason he does so many things [you called it 'swaying in the wind'] is because he thinks he's useless, and when someone wants him to do something, he does it because he feels he has no power against anyone. Exactly why he always says 'sorry' all the time instead of standing up for himself. Being easily influenced by other peoples' sayings and actions are an extremely common thing among teenagers.

Asuka's pride and arrogance to cover up a much weaker part of herself is also an extremely common thing among teenagers.

Rei's just Rei because she's a clone. I think Hideaki did a wonderful job depicting her, because in the real world, we've never encountered human clones. Adults and educated people have yet to actually understand Evangelion fully, so I don't even understand why we're debating this anymore. The human mind can be very eccentris at times.[/size]

[Qukey]

EVA is about the relationship of the people, not any of the religions. A person knows all about the angels doesn't make them understand the story. The religion stuffs are to attract people into the show and they don't have any value at all because they are not part of the theme of the story. The story is and only is about human relationship. It requires a lot of thinking to understand that the angels are not important, the end of the world is not important, the secret organization is not important. The only important part is to see how people interact with each other. We don't really have to know any of the reference. Try to watch EVA with this in mind. I am sure you can understand the story better. Anyone can't overlook the religious reference doesn't understand EVA at all.

Many true fans don't like the commet 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time' because they know the commet is not a fact, but an opinion. I can enusure you that there are more than 5 animes or manga with characters of more depth. Works from Osamu Tezuka(Astroboy, Kimba the white lion, Blackjack), Leiji Matsumoto(Galaxy Express 999) , Hayao Miyazaki(Heidi, Girl of the Alps) and Yoshiyuki Tomino(Mobile Suit Gundam, Space Runaway Ideon) have wonderful characters and I highly recommand them to anime fans, old or new.

Now, back to Shinji. How can someone like him when he doesn't even like himself? Shinji is not the first abandoned kid in animation history and his life is not the saddest. He can have so much to live for but he chooses to annoy them. His personality and action don't justify the kind of care he receives. This make the story unreal.

For the originality, let me share part of another show and tell me EVA is truly original. The show is made a few years before EVA. The story is about a 13 years old boy. He is abandon by his parents on Earth when his parents leave for space to join the war. During one of the the enemy attack near his home, he runs into a mecha and pilots it to protect his home. Later, when he joins a group to fight, an older female member takes care of him. The female member's fiance, later husband, is also a member of the group. Their enemy is a religious group who believe in miracles. Sometime later, the boy discovers the mecha he pilots is partially made by his mother and his father is the leader of his group. He is disappointed by his treatment from his father but he soon realizes the father's intention. Sounds like EVA? The problem is not the originality, but how well made the story is. EVA is well-designed and well-made. It takes elements from older stories and make a new story with a different look and feel. The idea of an abandon child fighting in robot is not original, but the feel determines it. It is just not possible from EVA's point of view to see other as unoriginal when its plot is not.

Just a side note:
Why isn't EVA a mecha show? If the story is not focus on mecha, then, most of Yoshiyuki Tomino's works are not mecha. Take Mobile Suit Gundam as an example. If mecha is the focus of the story, why is MSG still the most popular Gundam today worldwide? When mecha is the focus, people will simply look for newer, flashy, and better looking mecha. I am sure the mechas from MSG, which is 25 years old next year, look old. So, what is keeping the fans here? The characters. When people hear about mecha show, they think it is about robot fighting each other. That is not true most of the time. Many mecha shows have great characters, plots and theme. Also, do you consider Patlabor, Macross and Magic Knight Rayearth mecha show?

[eleanor]

[size=1] What anime is that...? I'm interested in it.

Anyways, if Shinji's personality is not original, the way Anno depicted it and actually showed it is. And you're right, Evangelion is about peoples' relationships [I don't think I said it was about religion]. As I said earlier, in the end, the angels and Evas are sort of like a side-dish that comes with Evangelion. Evangelion is possibly the first anime that uses a lot of time just showing Shinji talk by himself and also using time in the last two episodes to show the inner-minds of all the main characters in Evangelion. So, the angels and Evas are not the main focus at all.

How can so many people say Evangelion is not original when it's practically bursting with a new plot, new viewpoint, new ways of showing the storyline, new mechanical designs, much reference to different religions, and characters' personal depictions? Why do you think Evangelion is regarded as a famous anime? There's a reason, and I feel that people are singling out Evangelion to destroy everything that's in it just because it's dub is 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time.' I believe fans would believe this quote, because the word 'possibly' does not mean the word 'is'.

Yeah, the depth of Evangelion could be surpassed by Akira and the emotional standpoint could be beaten by a landslide by Ghost of the Fireflies, but there has to be some reason of why Evangelion pictures are always to be on a general anime site and labeled as a famous TV series.

And I disagree that Evangelion is a mecha show. Mech shows=Mechanical shows, and do not even begin to tell me that Eva-units are machines. Macross, Gundam Wing, etc. What's in those shows? Mechanical robots that wordlessly follow the orders of the pilot. Compare a mobile suit gundam to Eva-o1 and try to tell me whether Evangelion can be considered a mecha show? [/size]

[Qukey]

It is Victory Gundam made in 1993 by Yoshiyuki Tomino.

[QUOTE]
Anyways, if Shinji's personality is not original, the way Anno depicted it and actually showed it is. And you're right, Evangelion is about peoples' relationships [I don't think I said it was about religion]. As I said earlier, in the end, the angels and Evas are sort of like a side-dish that comes with Evangelion. Evangelion is possibly the first anime that uses a lot of time just showing Shinji talk by himself and also using time in the last two episodes to show the inner-minds of all the main characters in Evangelion. So, the angels and Evas are not the main focus at all.
[/QUOTE]
The religion substance doesn't enlighted EVA. Religion is nothing more than just a device to get people into watch it. It doesn't enrich the story a bit. Take away all the religion stuffs and you still get a great human drama. So, the religion reference does not make the show with better quality. Believe me, there are a lot of other animes which will spend a lot of time on the main characters but most of them still remember they have a story to tell.

[QUOTE]
How can so many people say Evangelion is not original when it's practically bursting with a new plot, new viewpoint, new ways of showing the storyline, new mechanical designs, much reference to different religions, and characters' personal depictions? Why do you think Evangelion is regarded as a famous anime? There's a reason, and I feel that people are singling out Evangelion to destroy everything that's in it just because it's dub is 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time.' I believe fans would believe this quote, because the word 'possibly' does not mean the word 'is'.
[/QUOTE]
Originality is not a big issue in anime world but it is quite funny to see some fans use it as a defence. Religion in mecha is not something new. Religion in anime is even older. Who are these people? It is a view shared by many "fans" but how much do they know about anime in general? Anime is a very new media in English speaking world and most local fans do even know who Osamu Tezuka and Leiji Matsumoto are. If these are the people who tell you EVA is the best, can you honestly believe them? I have never say EVA is not possible to be the best, but being the best as a fact, not opinon, so important? Some people may enjoy EVA being single out and destroy but not everyone dislike for its popularity. It has weakness...

[QUOTE]
Yeah, the depth of Evangelion could be surpassed by Akira and the emotional standpoint could be beaten by a landslide by Ghost of the Fireflies, but there has to be some reason of why Evangelion pictures are always to be on a general anime site and labeled as a famous TV series.
[/QUOTE]
The reason is because most of these fans in general anime sites do not know a lot about anime. EVA is well-designed and well-made as I have stated before. The female characters are easily likeable for the fanboys. It has relatively new animation and flashy mechas for people to get into. Then, it starts its deeper meaning. Now, tell me how many people you have met in different messageboard who love EVA but don't even understand it? Its hype gets a lot of "fans" who are bad for the fandom. BTW, the movie is called "Grave of the Fireflies", not "Ghost of the Fireflies".

[QUOTE]
And I disagree that Evangelion is a mecha show. Mech shows=Mechanical shows, and do not even begin to tell me that Eva-units are machines. Macross, Gundam Wing, etc. What's in those shows? Mechanical robots that wordlessly follow the orders of the pilot. Compare a mobile suit gundam to Eva-o1 and try to tell me whether Evangelion can be considered a mecha show? [/QUOTE]
Obviously, you have not watch many mecha shows. Mech means mechnical before 1983. Unfortunately, a man named Yoshiyuki Tomino, him again, made Aura Battler Dunbine in 1983. The battlers are bug-like robot powered by "aura" which is the spirit of the pilot. It doesn't need any electricity. Then, 3 years later, in 1986, the epic manga The Five Star Stories by Mamuro Nagano was born. The robots, known as the Mortar Headds, are biological. They have feelings and they can think even they are piloted by people. In one scene, one Mortar Headd throws his sword to another Mortar Headd on its own will without the knowledge of the pilot(headliner) or the fatima(co-pilot). We have seen the MHs feel fear more than once. Now, are Aura Battler and Five Star stories mechas? It is how they are defined generally. In 1997, Tomino made Brain Powerd. The Anti-bodies (robot) are biological as well. They are born, instead of made. They can even choose their pilots and the pilots refer them as "boy". They are alive and they are have mechnical part inside them, just like EVA. Many non-mecha fans think mecha must be mechnical but it is not always true.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Grave of the Fireflies...lol, my bad.

Well, history lesson or not, I refuse to believe that Evangelion is a mecha-show. I don't care about whether the definition changed, because mecha, simply put, means mechanical. The Eva-units are all biological except for the bindings that protect them and let humans control them.

And I also refuse to believe that noone, other than the people who created Evangelion, cannot truly understand everything about Evangelion. It's nearly impossible.

You also seem to be mis-reading my posts. I never said religion was the main part of the story. I said Shinji was. I am also not saying that Evangelion is the best. I'm saying it's one of the best. Everything has weaknesses, and it's impossible for something to be perfect.[/size]

[Qukey]

I didn't mis-read you. You are the one saying religion brings quality into EVA. I am wondering how much will change if there is no religion reference.

As for EVA mecha or not, it is a fact, not opinion. See, you understanding there is a cockpit for controlling, so it is a mecha, right? Didn't you say EVA is not mecha because they do not follow order wordlessly? Then, why do they need a cockpit and a pilot? BTW, what is so bad being a mecha. Does it mean if it is mecha, it cannot be serious? Maybe EVA is like Pokemon where you don't need a pilot to control it. Please don't look down on a gerne you don't really understand. Next time when you run into any Aura Battler Dunbine fans or Five Star Stories fans, please tell them those are not mecha because EVA is not mecha.

I agree it is impossible for anyone to full understand EVA. Properly not everyone working in EVA understand everything as well because some of the stuffs do not make any sense at all. However, don't you think we need a a certain degree of understand to like a show? How can someone claim a show to be the best when he/she doesn't even understand anything in it? So, everyone can develop their own theories on the meaning of EVA, but there are something everyone agree on.

Looks like you mis-read my message. I have never say you are the one saying EVA is the best ever. It is what this thread is about and I am not the one start it.

[Sweet Pie]

[COLOR=coral][B]I supposed, EVANGELION is ONE of the GREATEST because they're the first sci-fic manga/anime produced. But there's also great manga-kan such as OSAMU TEZUKA. ANYWAY, in Hollywood,[spoiler]rumors said that they're currently making a movie on EVA and the EVA00 looks like some freaking ghost.[/spoiler]true or not is up to you to decide.[/COLOR][/B]

[AzureWolf]

Just for clarification, when I say Gundam, I mean mecha shows in general. However, since Gundam is the most prominent mecha running, I'm going to focus on that. [quote]Why isn't EVA a mecha show? If the story is not focus on mecha, then, most of Yoshiyuki Tomino's works are not mecha. Take Mobile Suit Gundam as an example. If mecha is the focus of the story, why is MSG still the most popular Gundam today worldwide? When mecha is the focus, people will simply look for newer, flashy, and better looking mecha. I am sure the mechas from MSG, which is 25 years old next year, look old. So, what is keeping the fans here? The characters. When people hear about mecha show, they think it is about robot fighting each other. That is not true most of the time. Many mecha shows have great characters, plots and theme. Also, do you consider Patlabor, Macross and Magic Knight Rayearth mecha show?[/quote] The reason EVA is not a mecha show is because the story is not dependent on the times & technology (consider times & tech to be [I]very[/I] interdependent). The technology is a crucial aspect to war, and is what ultimately defines the Gundam universe, setting it apart from other animes. You actually ask yourself, "Why did they pick this time for this series?" when watching a new Gundam show, and the reasoning becomes apparent as you progress through the series.

Take Stardust Memory, where all the characters' lives revolved and focused on Gundams and their technology. Kou (who challenges Shinji for the title of "biggest loser/whiner in anime" but fails) is so obsessed with having the best Gundam, and it's this fact that makes his side "win" the war (yeah, I know, but let's keep things spoiler-free). It's a re-enactment of war, just with a cooler setting. What makes it story-worthy is the fact that you get to see the story of the people in the cockpit - those fighting the war - seeing what drives them. It's an interesting conflict and struggle, where, after watching several different gundam series, you realize there's no "right" side, giving a greater theme that nicely spans several series.

In short, you get to look at one part of a great war when watching a Gundam series. However, they could have took another direction and showed another flank or group, and you would end up with another story. It's a war: the story of a handful of people within it is just the sweetener.

Now EVA on the other hand ([B]correct me if I'm wrong![/B]), doesn't have a group of people who's story is dependent on the EVAs and the angels. As Metatron said, it was about Shinji and how he reacted to the world. If I'm understanding the general concensus, the EVAs and angels really didn't affect or influence the lives of the people involved, but only only helped to exponentially express Shinji's reaction to the world.

Oh, and maladjusted, a large fanbase does not mean a quality show/series/whatever. I think just mentioning DBZ as one of many large fanbased things is good enough to make my point. ;) As for EVA, I didn't like it, but I honestly can't remember why (Shinji was part it, though). It's been so long, and shows that you didn't like (for whatever reason), you tend to forget, while having a good memory of the ones you liked. So, yeah, let's not get into me hating EVA, but just on it being not the greatest.

[eleanor]

[size=1] The live-action Evangelion movie isn't a rumor...it's been confirmed and is now in production with the WETA workshop.

Calling Eva-Units a mecha is sort of like an insult, really. They're living, breathing, biological beings that have a mind of their own. Machines are dead, mechanical things that can do nothing without orders. Calling Evangelion a mecha show is just using the term 'mecha' to draw in interested audiences. By the end of the series, no one really give a **** whether it's mecha anymore, anyway.

AzureWolf, you're right, a large fanbase doesn't equal quality. What I'm trying to say is that when an anime was a large amount of quality and originality, then there will most likely be a large fanbase. I am in no ways trying to say that Evangelion must be the greatest anime of all time to date, because that's judged an anybody's opinion. What I'm trying to prove is that Evangelion is definately a great anime, not some junkie show you can throw away and not wonder about after watching.[/size]

[Qukey]

What is a theme Gundam has to do if EVA is mecha? BTW, I think 0083 Stardust Memories is a very bad example of Gundam show. Let me tell you how EVA is depending on the technology, like Macross.

If the technology is not advance enough in Gundam, there is no need of mechas from BOTH sides as they shared the same technologies because they are all human. However, like Macross, EVA is fighting something/someone more advanced in technologies, the only way they can bring balance in the fights are using enemies technologies. That is why the EVA units are essential. I don't think our little guns and missiles can hurt the angels. Without the EVA units, can we still have the story? No, human will be too easy to kill and there is no story about a boy if he wants to fight. He will not experience the fear of being attack by some unknown. Before all the emotion and deeper looking in human mind, the angels can kill everyone already.

Allow me to introduce you to a better Gundam show than Stardust Memories, Mobile Suit Gundam. First, the characters do not revolve around the Gundam. The story is about people suviving in war and the MS are just tools. Indeed, MS are first developed to use in construction in outer space. They are used as war machines only because Zeon doesn't have enough tanks and fighters. If we remove the MS from the story, the human drama still exists. Isn't EVA the same? How about Zeta Gundam, ZZ Gundam, Victory Gundam, Turn A Gundam and Gundam X? Stardust Memories is really not the best example you should give because the characters do not live up to the Gundam standard. If EVA and Gundam have the exact same kind of human drama, why is EVA not mecha and Gundam is mecha?

I never disagree that EVA is a human drama. However, it is still a robot show and robot show can have human drama as well. If EVA is not a robot show, I don't think Macross is one. Not just Macross, most UC Gundam are not mecha.

PS: Kou Uraki is not challenging Shinji in anything as he is made before Shinji. How about saying Shinji challenges Kou Uraki and he wins? Also, it is possible that Shinji is based on Amuro of Mobile Suit Gundam as MSG is one of Anno's favorite show, along with Space Cruiser Yamato and Space Runaway Ideon.

Please, if anyone think calling a show a mecha is an insult, he/she should watch more anime before making the statement as it proves that person does not know a lot about anime. Watch Macross and tell me if it is mecha like you expect from a mecha show. Since Anno, the director of EVA, himself is a mecha fan and worked in a Gundam before, I don't think he sees mecha as an insult.

[eleanor]

[size=1] Calling a Gundam show series mecha is perfectly fine, because the Gundam series a popular, well-known, and MECHA show. Calling Evangelion a mecha show is incorrect. Simply put, the Eva-Units are not mechanical. They are biological. LIVING. Hideaki is not trying to portray this show as a mecha show. Calling this show a mecha show is insulting, because the heart of Evangelion lies within Shinji and his interactions with everything around him. Calling a show based on the development and portrayal of peoples a 'mecha' show is wrong.

Although I strongly disagree with calling Evangelion a mecha show [because the Eva-Units are not machines and the whole Angels vs. Evas is like a side-dish with the whole thing], the debate is practically pointless by itself. I think we're supposed to discuss what Evangelion is really about, not argue about whether the Evas could be considered machines and reading about other anime mechas.[/size]

[Qukey]

Sounds like you have never watch Mobile Suit Gundam. If you did, you would know the story is centered around Amuro, not his RX-78, just like Shinji. When I was watching Aura Battler Dunbine last night, it was fun to see the parts of the mecha come from giant bugs. Now, maybe I have to adjust to the fact that it is not mecha at all because someone said living creatures cannot be mechas! Let's remove Brain Powerd from mecha or Five Stars Stories so fans are not confused by biological mechas. Also, a living creature with FREE WILL can be piloted by human as well because the souls only want to take their sons or daughters for a walk. The kids are not "piloting" the EVAs and that is not a cockpit.

Maybe I can share something from Brain Powerd which is a "reply" to EVA as Tomino himself put it. Brains, and all Anti-bodies, have their own mind and feeling. They are afraid of battles and they refuse to be pilot by someone who endanger them. However, the main character Yuu later realizes the meaning of pilot. The pilot is the one who guide the mechas to the direction of the pilot. If EVAs do not need the same guide, why do they have to risk human lives in the battlefield. How about allowing EVAs to fight angels off on their owns without pilots? The pilots are there to control them, so they are mechas.

It is fine if you don't want to call EVA a mecha show but I don't think you should call Gundam, Macross and Brain Powerd mecha shows as well because they are not about the mechas. So, in your standard, they are not mechas. You will realize it if you have watch them all.

I don't think these posts have any value at all because I am telling reasons and examples where no have seen or even heard of. Mechas or not, it is not an opinion, but fact. If you don't think EVA is mecha, it is because you do not know the gerne well enough. Anno himself is a fan of mechas and I don't think he sees mecha as an insult. Watch some more mecha shows will definitely help because you will see how overgeneralize is your assumption. BTW, in a poll a few years ago, EVA was voted one of the most tragic mecha shows in Japan. Looks like people in Japan agreed EVA is mecha.

[eleanor]

[size=1] While your vast knowledge of mecha animes seem to be used to humiliate me, I still disagree. In most Gundam series I've seen, the story based on the pilot himself does not even compare to the intimacy used in Evangelion. And that is what makes Evangelion special by itself. I have nothing more to say about the matter of whether Evangelion is mecha or not, because we're not swaying anyone's opinions here.[/size]

[AzureWolf]

I don't know, I thought EVA being a mecha show or not is important to it being the best because it shows the difference between being superficial and being deep.

Good stuff, Qukey, good stuff indeed - especially since you ignored my post completely... -_-

Ok, what you aren't getting is that the mechas, times, and technology influence and directly affect what happens in Gundam shows: they are the reason for everything, and the story you get is actually a miniscule part of a larger world and story. With Evangelion, however, the EVAs and angels only emphasize and enhance feelings and that are already there. They are not the cause of anything. [quote]I don't think these posts have any value at all because I am telling reasons and examples where no have seen or even heard of. Mechas or not, it is not an opinion, but fact. If you don't think EVA is mecha, it is because you do not know the gerne well enough. Anno himself is a fan of mechas and I don't think he sees mecha as an insult. Watch some more mecha shows will definitely help because you will see how overgeneralize is your assumption. BTW, in a poll a few years ago, EVA was voted one of the most tragic mecha shows in Japan. Looks like people in Japan agreed EVA is mecha.[/quote] Yeah, that's so true. You pointed out your own problem in this discussion: you are trying to mention things that are "exceptions to the rule," so to speak. Things that aren't universal enough to be known by anyone but a handful of people should not be used to prove a point. What's worse is the fact that you consistently use only one series to argue what's mecha and what's not. I'm getting the feeling that you have the story the other way around, where the show you are mentioning is a bad example of a mecha series, and other, more widely-spread series (such as 08th MS Team, Gundam Wing, and Stardust Memory) would be a more accurrate representation of the mecha genre. Try using one of those as an example and you'll convey your point more strongly.