Pro-life Pro choice. Let's be mature, kay?

[the_fizz]

[color=royalblue]For starter I am "Pro-Choice" on this topic.
I am what some of you, ?Pro-lifers? call, ?A baby killer!? I had one over three years ago now. I know that it was one of the hardest choose I had to make, but I do know that it is and was less painful then to loose a child. This had happen to me two years ago. What would have been my third child was born [b] Very Very Ill [/b] and the doctors had to revive him when he was born. He die seven days later from sever birth defects, on the 4th of July ~~which kills that holiday for me. Now, you see that if I had to loose [b] Two [/b] babies that way I would have lost it. :nervous: You see there where medical reason ~~medications I have to take~~ for me not to have babies and that is why I had the first abortion and with my third child I was to far long to have it done when I found out. I also know that I should have been more careful not to get pregnant in the first place, but I can not take "The Pill" and condoms are not always used in a long term relationship or in the case of a rape(How I got pregnant with my third child). I now have an IDU to help from getting pregnant, because doctors do not like to do "Tubeables" on a health woman who has just lost a baby ~BLAH BLAH, do not get me started on that topic. I am strongly against having one after the First Trimester of pregnancies, which some of you might say is contra diction of ?My believes?, but once I see the form of a baby that is when I find it wrong. Yes, I do know that life begins at conception, but I have the right to do what I want with that pregnancy. ~~And God does give me that right, because he gave us the ability of ?Choose?!!! Well if that is a problem with some of you and to strong for some of the younger posters then I am sorry, but I will answer any question on anything I have written if you want to IM me. Thanks for your time.
THE FIZZ[/color]:wigout:

[color=crimson]P.S. I am not looking for anything from anyone, other to give a life lesson, so that some one might not have to go thru what I went thru.[/color]

[DeathKnight]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i]
[B]All of humanity is a parasite.
We consume resources with hardly putting anything back.
Sucking life from Earth is how we survive.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]You're funny.
----

Anyway, it is the mother's choice. No matter what babbling christians or wristcutter wannabes say, your opinon doesn't matter- neither does mine, actually. It is all up to her.

And, I think she should have that choice. "But it is murder!" Maybe, doesn't matter to me if you murder anyone. Once again, as long as it is a well thought out, logical choice- I don't support much of anything if it is based on a blind rush.

With that said, it shouldn't become so common that it is almost like a new form of birth control- that would be irresponsible. I have a feeling someone will quote this part of my post and

Also, I would like to comment that my mother took serious consideration for the possiblity of aborting me- so no one can claim that I am biased for 'not knowing'; or tell me to 'try to place myself in the baby's position'. That is a waste of my time and yours.

I hope this topic doesn't dissolve into a morass of pseudo-philosphy between liberal minds and conservitive ones- although they all do dissolve that way, don't they?

PS. Bloodsin, a ghost from the past has a message for you.
[/color]
[quote][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin[/i][b]
No one aborted us, so we don't have the right to say it's ok.
When you get aborted, then you can tell us if it's ok or not.
However, I respect your non-aborted views.[/quote][/b]

[color=crimson]"No one's eaten you, but is it ok for you to eat?
The cow hasn't killed you, so do you have the right to kill it?
We don't have "rights" nothing is free, we all have to work and earn what we can get , and if one of the things we want to get is an abortion then all we have to do is pay that price."

-Anti. [he speaks through me! I am a puppet. :x][/color]

[Guest Bloodsin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]Bloodsin, your points are?how should I say?ill-advised. While many are able to successfully be poetic and wise by bringing in allegory and hyperbolic language?Charles comes to mind, and Mitch is beginning to develop his allegorical voice, you fall flat in doing so.

Namely, because your allegory is weak to begin with. While Earth has long since been labeled Mother Earth, to draw comparison between living, breathing humans and what is essentially, a sac of unformed cells, residing within the female cavity, is very over-the-top and does not serve a purpose, other than to?puff yourself up.

Your post is an example of an overextended personification. You?re treating Earth as a conscious organism, with decision making capabilities. We know that isn?t the case, and by using that overloaded metaphor, you?re weakening your argument, if you had an argument to begin with.

Really, I don?t see any semblance of rational thought in your replies here. I just see someone who doesn?t really know what they?re talking about and thus trying to deflect the issue by inserting an overused mythos.

Am I incorrect?

I would suggest that you take a bit of time to formulate a cohesive argument before posting, because a 6 line jumble of mixed metaphors will not get an A. A fully developed thesis will. [/B][/QUOTE]
LMAO.
You completely changed your post.
You "Spit" in my face for my statements, I'll ignore yours.
I've been on dozens of boards like this.
I've met many people like you, you're a dime-a-dozen add easly forgoten. If God himself told you, you still won't change your mind. What hope do I have?

[QUOTE]"No one's eaten you, but is it ok for you to eat?[/QUOTE]
I'm a vegetarian.
[QUOTE]PS. Bloodsin, a ghost from the past has a message for you.[/QUOTE]
Let me guess.
A neoseeker reject?

[Anti]

a neoseaker reject? Id say no but I don't know what that is, pm me sometime. oh, and by eating vegtables your eating a living, breathing, lifeform, and thus,killing something without gettings its permission. And don't act like such a victim

QUOTE]I've met many people like you, you're a dime-a-dozen add easly forgoten. If God himself told you, you still won't change your mind.[/QUOTE]

God/goddess/the radient IS gave us free will to do as we please, to see what truths we want to see, and to learn and grow and thus be alive, but thats another subject. couldn't resist checking it, though its nice to see someone who burys his head in the sand and tries a complex but ineffective word trick.

Now as to this thread. First off lets clarify terms - "pro-life"? thats basicly the hard *** right wingist to propganda, being for o against abortion dosn't make you pro-life, it makes you anti-abortion. To be pro-life as a human is a dillusion, the only life we are pro is ours as a species, its how nature made us. You can't have a suicidal race though it seems like their are to many suicidal individuals soemtimes....

as to pro-choice, should be called pro-abortion, despite what these "pro-lifers" say they are also pro-choice, to not be pro-choice is to take away your "right" to do whatever the hell you want, and if your a christian (Id have to check the other docturines to speak on them, not as many buddist/islamist or other mass religions to comment on where I am.) "god's" own right to us is free will - choice, and every human, god or not, will always excert that right - the difference between the warrior and the victim is who takes responsibilty for that choice and who blames others or a god or whatever.

Now that Ive done some clarifying from my point of view, as to abortion...first thing is that if the "pro-lifers" were really pro-life they'd absolutly under no circumstance make abortion illegal. that would kill more people then it would save. period. People would still get abortions, you can not stop them, the goverment can not stop them. Only with it illegal, theyd get abortions from grubby clinics or back allys or even the inexpiernced, and let me spell that out for you, disease, infection, death. period. my other thing to say is the goverment is not here to enforce your morals, it is here to provide you with the things you need to live a HEALTHY and SAFE life, morals should only be enforced by an individual on him or herself. You don't like something? don't read/watch/listen/see/participate in it, Censorship and other such tools of moralism are the first steps to dictaitorship, remember by imposing your morals your pushing us closer to becoming that dictaitorship.

so yes, abortion should exsist, but here is the ever present BUT. Abortion should NOT be readly available to the evryday person. You chose to not wear a condom, you chose to not take birth control, you chose to not get a vivsection, you chose to not use a diaphram, and thus you are fully responsible for getting pregnent/impregnating, and you should act that way...Abortion should NEVER be a common form of birth control. Not when its so easy to prevent pregnation in the first place - its called responsibilty and education, which so many claim to have, well words mean nothing, show action. If your responsibe you will never have to get an abortion from everyday(or weekly, or monthly, or w/e) sex.

so what should abortion be for? primarly it should be for rape victims. the girl did not choose to get raped, she isn't responsable for the impregnation (though she may be responsible for being drunk at a party she shouldn't of been at or similar scenerio) and thus is she chooses, she should be able to get a sterile, safe, procedure. without ANY kind of moral or other such incident from outsiders (albiet how inavoidable that is....).

so in summery.
Vegtables are living creatures to.
Be responsible, through responsibilty we get power.
Educations give us the knowledge to make intelligent and wise choices.
Abortion should not be common birth control but should be saved for special cases.

[Guest Bloodsin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anti [/i]
[B]oh, and by eating vegtables your eating a living, breathing, lifeform, and thus,killing something without gettings its permission. And don't act like such a victim [/B][/QUOTE]
You've only proven my point.
We live off the world by killing some of it.
Just as the "Parasite" baby lives off of the mother.
They said that the bay is a parasite, and therefore you're not really killing it.

Now I partly argee with you on your other statements.
I'd like to go over them, but I get scolded for staying up past my bedtime.

[Epid3mic]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]But again, this assumes that sex is [i]only[/i] used for conception. And that isn't the case, as you know. So it's an invalid point, in my view.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

You're confusing me. Here is what I'm saying: I understand that sex has alot to do with love and attraction, but, realistically, that's only one half of the deal. You can't get away with only one half of the deal, without running a risk, that risk being unwanted pregnancy. I see love irrelevant in this whole thing, we are not arguing whether the people are in love or not.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=crimson]I vote we talk the Earth into eatting Bloodsin.
On a much more mature level I don't think abortions should be so readily availble like one of the other members said infact, like i keep saying over and over.
Abortion isn't a method of birth control, but I do think that if the baby has no chance of living a healthy life pr if the mother is in danger, the woman should be allowed to have one. Also if you just seriously weren't thinking you should be allowed one, but only [b][i]one[/i][/b].
I Also think that after an abortion they should give the woman-or sometimes the couple-free birth control and make them attend a class on safe sex, including how to use a condom-both male and female ones. I'm not saying that even safe sex will work to not get a woman pregnant, but any information helps. Hell, birth control pills don't work all the time-my bio teacher's wife got pregnant with 2 of their 4 kids when she was on the pill.[/COLOR]

[the_fizz]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChibiHorsewoman [/i]
[B][COLOR=crimson]
On a much more mature level I don't think abortions should be so readily availble like one of the other members said infact, like i keep saying over and over.
Abortion isn't a method of birth control, but I do think that if the baby has no chance of living a healthy life pr if the mother is in danger, the woman should be allowed to have one. Also if you just seriously weren't thinking you should be allowed one, but only one.
I Also think that after an abortion they should give the woman-or sometimes the couple-free birth control and make them attend a class on safe sex, including how to use a condom-both male and female ones. I'm not saying that even safe sex will work to not get a woman pregnant, but any information helps. Hell, birth control pills don't work all the time-my bio teacher's wife got pregnant with 2 of their 4 kids when she was on the pill.
[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]I was offered The Pill after mine ~~which I stated I can not take, as so many other women~~ and they do give classes if you ask for them, but the problem is that most women got with out someone?s help and the man behind the pregnancy is no where to be found.
I agree with you on that it is not a from of birth control to be as available as condoms or The Pill, but it should be legal to keep from having women doing it the hard way like in the 50?s and 60?s, where so many women die from having it done somewhere unsafe. My mother is a nurse and in the time when women had to have it done illegally she say that it was horrible for the mother and she has told me the benefit of having it done right and SAFE.
THE FIZZ[/color]:wigout:

[Drix D'Zanth]

I suppose this is appropriate for my return considering the fact you finally dropped the A-bomb here at OB. I?m sure most of you have gone over the various specifics, the arguments as to basic procedure, how and when, why? Considering the fact that abortion is probably the grayest issue America will have endured, I can only offer my humble voice as anyone else?s. I will quote argument?s that I?ve seen within and without this specific thread.

Life? What exactly is life? Biologically, life is defined as the ability to grow, reproduce, and respond to stimulus. Let?s clear one thing up, an embryo is different than a human arm, or mass of flesh (then again, we are all just masses of symbiotic flesh, aren?t we?) Homo Sapien is eukaryotic. Which, by definition, means we are a complex organism composed of more than a single functioning cell. A human arm is not a eukaryote, it is not an organism. By itself, it cannot reproduce, grow, and except when it?s [b]just[/b] removed, it cannot respond to stimuli. An embryo can.

Wait.. an embryo can reproduce? No? you are right, it cannot. Human?s cannot reproduce until a male can produce and ejaculate sperm, and a female can ovulate. Fair enough. That make?s abortion/infanticide/homicide under the age of 12-ish legal, right? IT DOESN?T??? Why not? People can?t reproduce at 12 years old, so by definition they cannot be human to it?s fullest extent? Obviously, we have a vague biological definition.

So what exactly makes a human being, human? Why, it?s all philosophy right? By certain definition, humans are endowed with imagination, self-awareness, and other properties that distinguish us from every other species on the planet. Because of this philosophy we can all naturally extrapolate that humans all have the OPPORTUNITY to reproduce. Reproduction doesn?t make us human. Nor does it, or a lack of it, have any merit as to weather or not we are alive. We cannot say the embryo is more or less alive as any of us.. we?re the same racers on the same track, we just started a few years ahead.

Within the welter of arguments it?s easy to obfuscate the reality of the situation. We must take responsibility for our own actions. Once we embark in an act that is (by evolution or god, whichever you believe) designed to conceive life, it?s understood that the action can and will create life. Different life. New life, biologically dissimilar life. Because life cannot be so easily defined through the general definitions, or even properly through philosophies as they change so often. We ride on the newest wave of scientific discovery, that is: DNA.

DNA is the opportunity to LIVE, to reproduce, to grow, to react to stimuli. It?s the foundation from which all life can occur. Once you have DNA, you are an organism. Our species has 46 beautiful and unique chromosomes all alike in their fundamental structure, calcifying the human race into existence. An embryo?s 47 chromosom-ed cell will have the exact same genetic makeup upon conception as it will 50 years later. The opportunity always exists, and humanity at it?s fundamentals will always exist.

Dictionary.com defines a "person" as 1. A living human. Pure and simple.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
-The Declaration of Independence.

Firstly, holy ****? they used the word "Creator" in there!! Does that mean we are a country who?s unalienable rights are founded by ?. *gasp* ? God?? YES! Why? Because human relativity, human philosophy, and science waver and are insubstantial. Science cannot define the word "person". By founding unalienable rights on concrete such as the unchanging "thou shalt not kill" ensures the rights
remain so.

Secondly, the document says we have a right to LIFE. (men of course being used in the general sense, women are and were included) We?ve seen that the embryo is life, and by our own philosophies a person, so why do we face abortion? Legal injustice? the easy way out. We are given the choice to KILL, make something living?not.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]
[B]The choice of abortion belongs solely to the mother. If she was murdered, this guy should also be charged with the death of her son. It is nothing like abortion, because the supreme and only right to abortion resides with the mother.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Not a very fair assumption, Baron. Considering the fact said mother could not conceive a child by her lonesome. Men, biologically can become just as attached to offspring as much as a mother (thanks oxytosin.) Consider this: you and a significant other have purchased a car? you both pay equal share?s on it, but she drives it the most. After a few months of driving the car, she considers it a liability and throws it out. Not very fair , would you say? Then again, we aren?t talking about property, we are talking about a human life.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jesus Chicken [/i]
[B][color=blue]Meh, I don't care. If you have a problem with abortion, why don't you all have problems with condoms. They are stopping life, and in effect killing a human life. Masturbation has the same problem. It sounds like some of you are just picking what to have a problem with because outlawing one practice would inconvenience you.
People are dying as I type, people are starving and could eat the food you throw away. Money used to make entertainment and run other useless elements of your life could be spent on saving people around the world. Wheres your bleeding heart for them?
I honestly don't give a rat's-*** about it. People choose to kill other people everyday. Sure its stopping a human life but it happens so often we're getting desensitised to it.
My thoughts are probably a bit cluttered, still, I'm sure you get the gist of what I'm saying.
Worry about the bigger things first. Get over it.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

You?ve got to be kidding me. You really don?t care if you die, if your loved one dies, it?s all insubstantial. According to your philosophy, not all life matters. Jesus Chicken, stop looking at this issue as black-and-white. Killing can?t all suddenly be STOPPED. It?s impossible to go on an "anti-death" campaign, as wistfully blissful that may sound. However, we can stop one form of killing.

According to the CDC 37,836,648 dead by abortion. This number is conceivably larger considering the fact most private clinics have a carte blanche in regards to reporting their procedures. This is not a minor issue. Abortion kills millions of people, everywhere. Jesus Chicken, with your argument you could defend the existence of the Holocaust. How sad.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i]
[B]You've only proven my point.
We live off the world by killing some of it.
Just as the "Parasite" baby lives off of the mother.
They said that the bay is a parasite, and therefore you're not really killing it.
[/B][/QUOTE]

.. parasite?please, don?t be so laconic.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Wow, by the vague definition here, the baby is a parasite right? Yes, yes it is? it gives nothing in return. Thanks for ******* over our entire reproductive method by using it?s social definitions. You were a parasite to your mother once, as was every member who, interestingly enough, is able to type the same sentiments you display. You see.. you were spared the fate that so many potential great-one?s have endured. You are alive today. Why? You have your "parasitic" actions to thank. By your definition, the elderly should be killed off as soon as they can?t support themselves. Paraplegics, the mentally disabled? none of them should live. How do they contribute to me? Parasitism is a word that?s misconstrued into the malignant, like "fetus" to "de-humanize" a human being. Don?t try to dodge the issue with a single word.


I suppose I should suspend my various arguments until I receive more replies. Abortion should be illegal. Cases like rape and the mother?s life are gray enough for a separate debate I won?t take up until later. As for birth control, use birth control. As for safe sex?. If you don?t want a pregnancy, don?t have sex. Comon, it?s common sense. Sure, sex feels good. I bet heroin feels good? but every time you hit the needle, you are just begging for one lethal overdose.

[Baron Samedi]

Drix... it is wonderful to see you back. Where have you been hiding?

[quote][i]Originally posted by Drix[/i]

Not a very fair assumption, Baron. Considering the fact said mother could not conceive a child by her lonesome. Men, biologically can become just as attached to offspring as much as a mother (thanks oxytosin.) Consider this: you and a significant other have purchased a car? you both pay equal share?s on it, but she drives it the most. After a few months of driving the car, she considers it a liability and throws it out. Not very fair , would you say? Then again, we aren?t talking about property, we are talking about a human life.[/quote]

I see what you are saying... but technically, the baby at this stage is a growth, an offshoot of the mother. People have an ultimate right to control over their bodies. As such, you can say that only the mother has the right to abortion.

I completely agree that the father can get attatched as well. I do not suggest that abortion should take place without both parents full approval, what I do suggest however, is that the woman's feelings can be percieved as more important than the man's. Afterall, it is her body.

If they discuss it, and the Dad wants abortion, the mother doesn't, abortion should not occur, because it is her choice. Vice versa too.

I am not saying it is right, but at the same time...

It is just a borderline issue. It depends who you are, how you feel and what experience you have had with it.

Abortion should be limited to certain cases... it should be viewed on an individual basis. What we really need however, is some form of legal abortion, and some authorative body to govern the guidelines and entrance criteria for it.

Decisions should be made as partners, but the woman's right to control over her body should be absolute. Like a Constitutional Monarchy. The constitution [partners] should make all the rules, however in times of duress [pregnancy], the Monarch [woman] should be able to take the reigns of power [abortion choice].

[PloKoonDS]

Honestly, Drix and Wristcutter are both bloody awsome.

Anywho, about abortion. what the **** is your problem if you even consider it? "Oh, I don't want this child in my life that isn't born yet, so I'm gonna get rid of it."

Oh, so I guess that means I don't want the guy living next door to me in my life and I don't even want to give him a chance, so I'm gonna go shove a hot poker into his head. Yeah, really good one there people.

It's a LIVING, BREATHING BEING. It may not be breathing as we do, but it's getting oxygen and the nessecary supplements from the mother, and it's very much so alive. Why the hell (if you don't consider it to be "alive") would you need to kill it then? I mean honestly people, THINK before you open your mouths.

Now, you may say "oh, but it's her body and she has decided she doesn't want the baby!" So? She made her choice when she decided to shag. Just like the father made his choice when he decided to shag. You may also think "only she is the one responsible and only she raises the child!" Typically, it's the truth. But the father (if he even has HALF of a brain) would be in that childs life and be a good figure and example to it. A kid is no joke, and it's nothing you can throw out when you don't want it anymore. It's not a piece of trash, or a used up can of coke. It's just as alive as you are, it's just soully dependant upon the mother and father.

I mean seriously, who ever told you that it's alright to murder is honestly a ****tard. If it's alright to murder, lets let out all of those people who got sentenced to life in prison for killing a few people here and there. If not, then shut the hell up because abortion is bluntly and blatantly wrong.

THANK YOU, VERY MUCH

~Plo

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PloKoonDS [/i]
[B]You may also think "only she is the one responsible and only she raises the child!" Typically, it's the truth. But the father (if he even has HALF of a brain) would be in that childs life and be a good figure and example to it. A kid is no joke, and it's nothing you can throw out when you don't want it anymore. It's not a piece of trash, or a used up can of coke. It's just as alive as you are, it's just soully dependant upon the mother and father.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think a lot of the people who get abortions are people unfit to be parents at the time they get pregnant (ignorant teenagers, trailer trash, etc...) So in such a case adoption is clearly the choice to make, as opposed to just killing it.

[Break]

[size=1][color=CC0000]Jesus... if people want abortions, they should be allowed them. It is not murder (up to a certain time), because the fetus is not living. It doesn't move, it doesn't reproduce, it doesn't excrete, it doesn't respire. The only thing it does do is feed and grow. Just like a plant but a lot simpler, even plants are more living than 1 month old fetuses (or is it feti?). If my mother chose to have an abortion when I didn't exist as a human being, then that would have been fine. I wouldn't have done anything special when I was growing and eating anyway and I probably would have existed as something else in another place.

Anyway, should we really be worrying about killing "humans" that aren't actually alive yet? We're overpopulating the planet anyway, but that doesn't mean that people don't have a [i]choice[/i] to have a baby or have an abortion. I don't see the problem with it. We should be worrying more about German perverts who fantacise about eating people (actually do eat people) and cut their penises off and then eat them. I think the real killers are the ones who do it for fun and people who kill in wars. Stop banging on about abortion, it fucks me off.[/size][/color]

[the_fizz]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]I think a lot of the people who get abortions are people unfit to be parents at the time they get pregnant (ignorant teenagers, trailer trash, etc...) So in such a case adoption is clearly the choice to make, as opposed to just killing it. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue]THANKS?!?!
I know I am [b] NOT [/b] any of the above and it is wrong of you to say that about people who get them. I was raised well and was a stable well educated adult when I got mine. So there is more reason to get them then there is for making it illegal!!
Plus, I am a great mother to my first son who I had when I was a teenager, so I am sorry to GRRRRR at you but take a step back and rethink that about the people who get them. We are all not bad people just where in a bad place at the time and we had to get one.
THE FIZZ[/color] :wigout:

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by the_fizz [/i]
[B]THANKS?!?!
I know I am [b] NOT [/b] any of the above and it is wrong of you to say that about people who get them. [/B][/QUOTE]

I knew someone would take this the wrong way and fly off the handle about it.

But it's a true fact. I'm not saying ignorant teenagers and trailer trash make up absolutely [b]100%[/b] of the abortion population, but I'm saying they make up the majority of the group. I think that's a fairly safe assumption, don't you? Sure, YOU may be in the 25% or so of the group that doesn't fall under that category.... but you're a minority don't you think?

[the_fizz]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]I knew someone would take this the wrong way and fly off the handle about it.

But it's a true fact. I'm not saying ignorant teenagers and trailer trash make up absolutely [b]100%[/b] of the abortion population, but I'm saying they make up the majority of the group. I think that's a fairly safe assumption, don't you? Sure, YOU may be in the 25% or so of the group that doesn't fall under that category.... but you're a minority don't you think? [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=royalblue] Ok, I am not "Flying off the handle." about it I was just defending the group of us that do not misuse abortions as birth control. I was just saying that is being pretty judgmental and unsympathetic of you, that was all.
THE FIZZ[/color]:wigout:

[color=green]P.S. Why do you use "ignorant teenagers?, some teenagers are smarter then some adults I know? Is it because they got pregnant in the first place or they don?t know how NOT to get pregnant. Which you could add falls on ?parents and schools? for not teaching it in the first place, not the teenager! [/color]

[Kinoko Shima]

I'm totally against abortion 100%. It's killing. No way around it.

Ok, I know some of you people here say that fetuses aren't alive, they just eat and grow. Right? Well, if something's not alive, WHY would they need to eat, and HOW would they be able to grow?

And again, think of the baby. How would you feel if your parents found out they were going to have you, and decided they didn't want you?

It's like giving the death sentence to an innocent person. The baby didn't do anything wrong to be robbed of it's life. It didn't kill anybody or do anything to deserve it.

If a parent doesn't want their baby, then they could put it up for adoption. Simple as that. .....Another thing to do if you don't want kids, don't have sex.

[Drix D'Zanth]

Did you even bother reading my post at all? We've gone over this

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=CC0000]Jesus... if people want abortions, they should be allowed them. It is not murder (up to a certain time), because the fetus is not living. It doesn't move, it doesn't reproduce, it doesn't excrete, it doesn't respire.
[/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Every cell in a fetus/embryo exctretes. it's constantly utelizing the transfer of fluids and solids even at it's most miniscule scale. Every cell in our body excretes to a certain extent. But does being able to take **** make you human? Wrong.

It can't reproduce? Eventually it can. By your logic, that's saying every person under the age of 11 or so isn't a person. As i've stated in my previous post, this supports infanticide and child homocide. Beautiful. Wrong again.

It moves constantly. It's all relative, think about it. An embryo is minute, it's movements are minor compared to the dramatic movement of a post-natal human. Give me a break here, cells move constantly. Wrong again.

It does respire. What is respiration? Cellular respiration is the change of gluecose and oxygen into ATP (at it's most basic). Embryo's have an oxygen transport method, it utelizes ATP. An embryo cell is similar (not in specilization or structure, but in DNA and the ability to function. Recall, stem cells are unspecialized "jack-of all trades") in every fundamental respect to a full grown human's cell. Wrong a fourth and final time.

I could improvise something incredibly sarcastic and cruel here. But I'll just ignore the superflous details and conclude: You are wrong. An embryo/fetus is alive.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=CC0000]The only thing it does do is feed and grow. Just like a plant but a lot simpler, even plants are more living than 1 month old fetuses (or is it feti?). If my mother chose to have an abortion when I didn't exist as a human being, then that would have been fine. I wouldn't have done anything special when I was growing and eating anyway and I probably would have existed as something else in another place. [/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

There aren't different gradients to "living" and "nonliving" .. it's black and white. Either you are a live or not. By your definition, plants aren't living. [b]Your right, plants arent alive![/b] No, I'm kidding, they are. Drink sprite, try again.

There isn't any diference in the amount of "alivness" between a plant and a fetus. A fetus is FAR more complex in it's systems, developments, genological properties, and biological potential than a plant could ever be. FAR more complex. Both of them are just as alive as the other. Just because something isn't as developed as something else doesn't mean it isn't ALIVE or a SPECIES.

[B]" I wouldn't have done anything special when I was growing and eating anyway and I probably would have existed as something else in another place.[/B]

How philosophical. I coulve eaten a flake of special K that contained enough potassium to cause an allergic reaction in my bloodstream enough so i dropped dead.

I could've left my house 2 minutes later and been involved in a major car crash that occured at that exact time, instead of the time i normally left and arrived saftely.

We could consider the "if's". How many great people are we losing to abortion? So many people have had families that could've easily done out with children. Incredible people, great people. I'll give you an example:

A young girl, in her late teens early twenties is married and pregnant. The husband is not the father. They are both very poor and don't know how they might support the child. Abortion would be fine right??

How about if i told you the family lived in the harsh conditions of Israel, facing an economic structure imposed by a harsher conquering state? What if i said, the mortality rate of babies was high enough? Lets say the baby didn't have an OB/Gyn and no hospital to be born at? No midwife....

Abort? If you say yes, you just condoned the abortion of Jesus. Great people are being killed by abortion.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=CC0000]Anyway, should we really be worrying about killing "humans" that aren't actually alive yet? We're overpopulating the planet anyway, but that doesn't mean that people don't have a [i]choice[/i] to have a baby or have an abortion. [/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Nothing like the choice to kill someone. I think the next time i get pissed at my 8 year old neighbor i'll kill him. Not like he's amounted to jack squat. He'll the only reason he's alive is his parents give him everything. He gives them NOTHING (at least in the monitary or physical sense) right?

On overpopulation, we aren't. Sure, Japan is a tiny island in which millions have decided to crowd. The earth is relatively fine population wise. Every 8 seconds someone is born. Every 7 someone dies. That's about a .1% population increase per year (USA CDC report). The United states has 4 states in the "breadbasket" area that could feed the entire world. Why don't we? We like getting bread for a couple bucks instead of giving it away to the starving. Why else? The rest of the world is tyrannical. They don't work by the same economic systems we do and end up killing their people ... few governments care about their people. It's a simple lesson of history.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=CC0000]I don't see the problem with it. We should be worrying more about German perverts who fantacise about eating people (actually do eat people) and cut their penises off and then eat them. I think the real killers are the ones who do it for fun and people who kill in wars. Stop banging on about abortion, it fucks me off.[/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

So we should direct our collective energies from abortion and it's millions of deaths to about 50 guys that "fantasize". I think the idiocy of this part alone solidifies my arguments.

[OlgaTheDwarf]

Okay, for starters I would like to firmly state that I am Pro-life. To all of you effers who seem to be taking this the wrong way, I would like to explain that what I mean by it is simply, that I believe abortion should never be a choice, nor should it ever be done. What I do not believe in is forcing people ( dictatortor-ish laws, physical harm, ect...) in to believing the same as me. THat doesn't mean that I'm not going to explain to people how abortion is wrong, but that I would never kill, or even wish harm on someone who wants an abortion. I just clearing that up for all those who think that Pro-lifers are crazy rightiwing nazis... Why? because I can!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]
[B] Afterall, it is her body. [/B][/QUOTE]

(Okay, I realize that I am only quoting and replying to part of your post, which is something I dislike very much because people seem to misuse that power by mis-quoting the meaning. Just know that I am replying more to the "her body, her choice" arguement then to your post.)

I really cannot say how much I hate this arguement. Okay, I would like to direct everyone to Drix's first post in this thread. In it he (Dirx) goes into deep detail on how the embryo/fetus/[b]HUMAN BABY[/b] is more than just another "part" of the mother's body. Thinking any other way is a dangerously unproven way of thinking thats sole intention is to make people feel OK, about their decision to be alright with abortion. It's not proven that a baby in the womb (at anystage, from conception to birthing) is any less human than us. Jee, we have a hard enough time as it is deciding what it is to be "human", yet when it comes to a womens "right" to disqualify her own child from the human race, we know that the "fetus surely can't be human... right?" Wrong! there is NO evidence supporting that, that doesn't add up to a flimsy, easily dismantled argument. Drix's post alone shows that. Now, being that now we see it's more than just excess of the mothers body, it can be clearly seen that a choice made for an abortion does not solely involve the mother. In fact, though the mother's body is involved, the choice effects the baby a whole h_ll of a lot more.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Drix D'Zanth [/i]
[B]
It can't reproduce? Eventually it can. By your logic, that's saying every person under the age of 11 or so isn't a person. As i've stated in my previous post, this supports infanticide and child homocide. Beautiful. Wrong again.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I would also like to add hermaphrodites (well, maybe not all of them, but I do know that many of them are born with completely screwed up genitalia, so they can't reproduce), and men and women who are just sterile. They can't reproduce, but they are still human. So it supports more than infantacide and child homocide, it supports any type of homocide as long as the victim fits in the shoe.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=CC0000]Jesus... if people want abortions, they should be allowed them. It is not murder (up to a certain time), because the fetus is not living. It doesn't move, it doesn't reproduce, it doesn't excrete, it doesn't respire. The only thing it does do is feed and grow. Just like a plant but a lot simpler, even plants are more living than 1 month old fetuses (or is it feti?). If my mother chose to have an abortion when I didn't exist as a human being, then that would have been fine. I wouldn't have done anything special when I was growing and eating anyway and I probably would have existed as something else in another place.

Anyway, should we really be worrying about killing "humans" that aren't actually alive yet? We're overpopulating the planet anyway, but that doesn't mean that people don't have a [i]choice[/i] to have a baby or have an abortion. I don't see the problem with it. We should be worrying more about German perverts who fantacise about eating people (actually do eat people) and cut their penises off and then eat them. I think the real killers are the ones who do it for fun and people who kill in wars. Stop banging on about abortion, it fucks me off.[/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay, since you seem to be the expert on when it's not okay to kill a "fetus", when is that time exactly? You said yourself it's okay "up to a certain time", so that implies that you know when it becomes a "real boy" (or girl). If all you can say is "how can a few cells be a person" then don't bother replying. Who the heck do people think they are labeling what is life or what isn't? It seem that they just pick on the weak little guys, simply for convenience.

Plus, this is a thread about were one stands on abortion of so course we are going "bang on" about it, that's its purpose, no need to get your panties all bunched up (sorry I usually don't say lines like this, but I've been playing a lot of [i] Evil Dead: Fistful of Boomstick[/i] lately so they're fresh in my mind.).

Well, all in all I think that I only repackaged many older posts, so I appologize for not beiong strikingly original but this is my oppinion. Though I have many more thoughts on this issue I really need to go so... I'll Be Back!!! (Hopefully!)

[Guest cloricus]

It's interesting; this debate seems to always have three parties. 1) The people who value life, 2) ones who don't and 3) group that support "free choice" under any situation. The first two go to their respective sides and the last one tends to merge with the abortion crowd and lends their philosophy. This leaves two groups which you can roughly divide into Christian/religious people and the liberal religious types/atheists most of the time. While the whole thing can be linked to our standard of living and status of country?s; this is then linked to morals (in turn linked back to religion) and leaves us with a debate that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand but instead more of what the individual has been brought up to believe and do.

The reall topic and broad question is do you care if a bunch of three trillion cells fail to function which in most country?s wouldn't even rate as a question since so many die anyway?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]The reall topic and broad question is do you care if a bunch of three trillion cells fail to function which in most country?s wouldn't even rate as a question since so many die anyway? [/B][/QUOTE]
[color=violet] That was blunt, so allow me to be blunt as well.
You're pretty much talking about a misscarriage right? (okay, in a manner of speaking, 3 trillion cells failing to function is basically a misscarriage)
I went thru one of those back in October-those cramps [i]really[/i] sucked. I didn't enjoy the event, but needless to say I've been able to carry on with my life. I'm a lot more careful with taking care of myself (and taking my damn pill).
There is nothing to show that there was a baby, and nobody really misses it because I was only two months along.
So yes, I could get along without it. Okay, so I sounded heartless, but this wasn't a reply for emotions[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

I am talking about, in this scope at least, all types of abortion at any point in a pregnancy.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=deeppink]You Didn't specify. all you said is the part about the cells failing to function. This could be interpreted as talking about anything from a misscarriage to actuall abortion.[/COLOR]

[lea]

[COLOR=blue]
What makes a human a human is their soul....and what makes a soul? Conscious. What makes consciousness? The mind and heart, working in a body, receiving signals, digesting information. It has been proven that a "fetus" responds to touch, even while in the uterus (when doctors have done emergency operations on unborn fetuses, they responded to touch and sound like a normal person does). Killing something with a soul constitutes as a murder, don't you think?[/COLOR]

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Originally posted by cloricus
The reall topic and broad question is do you care if a bunch of three trillion cells fail to function which in most country?s wouldn't even rate as a question since so many die anyway?
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[COLOR=blue]A misscariage happends naturally...tecnically, it's not an abortion [/COLOR]

[Guest cloricus]

[QUOTE][B][COLOR=deeppink]This could be interpreted as talking about anything from a misscarriage to actuall abortion.[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]Didn?t I just say this? Sorry for not being so clear.