Pro-life Pro choice. Let's be mature, kay?

[scrmngfangrl]

its murder, an im trying but i can't see it any other way. so im for limited, as in incest, health crap, raped teens, NOT women going around screwing an not using protection afraid to take responsibility for their actions. there is adoption too, but maybe its easier to kill than give up...but eh, what do i know?
copy past~Mazohyst of Decadence





crap, what was i going to add?....oh yeah! the whole 'my body my choice' thing is pretty retarded. ok, the chicks body might suffer from some side affects, but whose body is really being affected? could be the dead babies, oh no. never.

i hate all those people that stand there screaming at the people, crap they piss me off. it doesn't really help anyone...yeah...

[Baron Samedi]

Hahaha. I am oh so appreciative of the thoughtful, well thought out, respectful opinions outlined here. Here I came, all ready for a jolly good argument, or at least some interesting reading, and what do I get? Crap, thats what.

Ok. Now for my stance on the issue.

Sure. I am only 14. Sure, maybe I would feel differently if it was my child. But sure, you want the best for a child. Sure you can't afford to support it. Sure, it will probably end up as trash in a trailer park. Yet some people seem to think that is OK as long as you don't abort it.

Killing is not a really condonable act, but in some cases it may be better that allowing the child to live, or the people may even be selfish. It happens.

If you had gotten drunk and made a mistake, if you had had an accident, if you were thoughtless, if you were raped, financially insecure, emotionally unprepared, then, would it not be kinder and better for an abortion to take place?

[b]Rape[/b] abortion is acceptable
[b]Getting drunk[/b]... unfortunate but understandable.
[b]'Breakage' or failure[/b] is perfectly acceptable
[b]Thoughtless[/b]: People make mistakes. Not as solid base for 'action' as the others though.
[b]Financially bad off[/b] wouldn't it be fairer to the child?
[b]Emotionally unprepared[/b] often a cop-out excuse, but also acceptable.

All of these could be countered by adoption... but how hard would it be to give up something that you have nurtured inside you for 9 months? Abortion before any bond is established is the kindest way to get rid of it, before any prejudicial feelings are raised to counter the logical.

Ultimately, abortion is something that two partners should decide on. But more importantly, the woman should decide, as it is mainly relating to her.

Questions: What can you do to stop her? Is it fair to stop her? Do you have any right over another persons' rights?

Answers: Nothing, No and No.

So sit down and be accepting of other people's decisions. Don't try to judge until you've been in that position, and even then, be aware: People are different.

[island gurl]

I totally agree with baron. Sure there's two sides to everything but in the end it could be in everyone's best interests.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]
[B]So sit down and be accepting of other people's decisions. Don't try to judge until you've been in that position, and even then, be aware: People are different. [/B][/QUOTE]

Say, when was the last time [i]you[/i] were in that position?

I'm sorry but **** happens to everybody. No one is ever given a perfect, sparkling life. So if a woman gets pregnant - whether it be rape, ignorant sex, what have you - that's what has happened. What's done is done. If you don't like it, that means kill a baby? Give it a chance at life, put it up for adoption if you can't support it for any reason. Just because you don't like what has happened to you, doesn't give you any right to intrude upon ANOTHER's life and take that from them.

It's a surprise that those in favor of abortion have not been aborted themselves.

[Break]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]a surprise that those in favor of abortion have not been aborted themselves. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=CC0000]Why are you always so negative?

Anyway, I believe that until the baby has been growing for a certain length of time, abortion is acceptable. Up until it's actually living is fine ion my opinion.

But there is a flip side to this, because some people just use abortion because they find pregnancy and motherhood to be an "inconvenience" (an excuse many use) acceptable, even if they are a busy, working woman.[/size][/color]

[Ani_Freak]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]...If you don't like it, that means kill a baby? Give it a chance at life, put it up for adoption if you can't support it for any reason. Just because you don't like what has happened to you, doesn't give you any right to intrude upon ANOTHER's life and take that from them.[/B][/QUOTE]


[color=darkblue]Well, although I'm a pro-choice person I very much feel the same when it comes to the choice of adoption as you mentioned.

I had a friend that was pregnant because she was just ignorant and she and her partner just did not paly it safe. She calls me one night at like 3am, tells me she is pregnant and that she is considering abortion. I just told her that whatever she feels is right to do, she should go ahead and do it. I told her that she should think it through because it was going to be tough once she does it.

She in fact did it, that was her choice, but she regrets what she did as of now. She said, I should've have it and maybe give him on adoption(it was a boy). Y was one of the people who suggested adoption but at that time, she made a choice, even good or bad, it does not matter. I guees that you have to make a choice, even though the outcome isn't clear.

I would've given him on adoption, I'm not fond of abortion but I strongly beleive that people should be given the choice to do what they think is best for them, regardless of what people approves or disapproves.[/color]

[color=red]Ani_Freak[/color]

[BabyGirl]

[color=deeppink]I'm going to be a bit cruel for a moment. Do any of you honestly remember you first year of life after being delivered into the world? What makes you believe so strongly that something that won't be able to function on its own for another good ten+ years is more valuable than the person's life who is making the decision to abort?

---

I think that many pro-life people place far too much importance on a small little fetus. A teenager who gets an unwanted pregnancy is going to go through much more than 'just being pregnant' if she decideds against abortion. There's parental disapproval, getting stared at, having to drop out of high school at a certain point in the pregnancy, not having the emotional maturity to deal with a real, living child, etc.

If someone isn't mature enough to care for a baby, then they shouldn't be having sex, right? No, not necessarily. Sex and babies are two totally different levels of emotional maturity, to say that they're alike is an ignorant opinion by someone who obviously has never had sex or has never been faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

I just think that pro-life supporters need to think more about the woman/girl/couple it will be affecting than what's going to happen to a worm-size fetus harbored in her uterus.[/color]

[Queen Asuka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]I just think that pro-life supporters need to think more about the woman/girl/couple it will be affecting than what's going to happen to a worm-size fetus harbored in her uterus.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=hotpink][size=1]I like the opinion that you've expressed here, but when I think of abortion, I think of partial-birth abortion. I don't agree with abortion at ALL, not one bit, because if you are responsible enough to have sex, why not be responsible enough to take care of a child? There is a time and place for everything, but that's just my humble opinion.

As for partial-birth abortion, it is the most disgusting practice ever. The baby by then is capable of living outside of the mother's womb, but they kill it anyway. That is SAD. I've seen some very disgusting pictures of it, too. That should be illegal.[/color][/size]

[Arcadia]

[size=1]I thought partial-birth abortion [i]was[/i] illegal now. Or was that just Florida? Hmm.

[quote]What makes you believe so strongly that something that won't be able to function on its own for another good ten+ years is more valuable than the person's life who is making the decision to abort?[/quote]

That's my entire stance, right there. It's not fair to tell a girl that she has to say no to abortion to save a life when it's only going to destroy her own. Especially when the life she's supposedly saving isn't technically [i]living.[/i][/size]

[BabyGirl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]
As for partial-birth abortion, it is the most disgusting practice ever. The baby by then is capable of living outside of the mother's womb, but they kill it anyway. That is SAD. I've seen some very disgusting pictures of it, too. That should be illegal.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink]That is one form of abortion that I disagree with. I never even knew it was [i]legal[/i] until recently.

I think that when pro-life extremists protest, they show you pictures of ONLY this type of abortion...silly extremists.

*What are everyone's thoughts on [i]medical[/i] abortions?[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

I'm not gonn abring this into some flame war like the last abortion topic... but alot of you have no idea what happens during abortion..

Some keep saying Abortion is murder.... in some cases, yes... but LEGAL abortions (ie: within the first trimester) it is not murder, hence why it's legal. Any baby naturally born within the first trimester(essentially a miscarriage) would NOT be alive to begin with.... if you don't believe me, as my mum... she had two miscarriages before she had me. A fetus cannot live in the first trimester. It's essentially NOT alive. Therefor, abortions within the first trimester IS NOT murder.

Now, illegal abortions, after the first trimester, thats a totally different story. Those are illegal, they can essentially be murder, depending how you think about it.

If you base your whole reasoning ehind abortion based on "murder" or not, you should know your facts before you judge. The fetus essentially has a chance to eventually be a living being, but at the time, it is NOT a living being. It coud not survive had it been naturally born during the first trimester, therefor not a living being. You cannot kill something that isn't alive. I believe within the first trimester, a woman can do as she pleases. If she finds out she's pregnant and doesn't want it, then she should be able to get an abortion within the first trimester.... if she waits, well then thats her fault and she should live with it. And believe me, if you don't know your pregnant within the first 3 months, you have problems...

[Semjaza]

I don't see how natural birth even comes into play considering the fetus is being forced out anyway. I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I don't get how it supports much. Because something wouldn't survive coming out, it's not alive? The thing it still alive, regardless of whether or not people want to consider it an actual person or not.

I've taken classes on the subject, I've learned plenty of things about what abortions do the fetus/child as well as the mother. I've seen plenty of terrible photos and videos. The only type of abortion I cannot really agree with AT ALL is partial birth abortion, because if you're going to wait that long you might as well just have the kid and put it up for adoption. I don't get how that could be allowed.

I don't want to sound cold, but the general early-months abortions do not bother me. Yes, it can be rather sad as the fetus or child is simply an innocent thing in all of this. However, you have to take so many things into consideration, most of which were already mentioned by Babygirl. Most people don't. People don't even take into consideration that not all sex is consented for by the woman in the first place. It's as if every single woman who gets pregnant and didn't want to is automatically a slut.

"You had sex, it's your problem," they say in generally nasty tones. Yeah, it is [i]their[/i] problem, that's why it's [i]their[/i] decision, jackass. Being against abortion is one thing, being a jerk because of it is another.

[Guest Bloodsin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]I'm going to be a bit cruel for a moment. Do any of you honestly remember you first year of life after being delivered into the world? [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]
Hell yeah!
It was the worst day in my life.
Damn the human race and their instinct to reproduce.
And humans wonder why we die.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]it is their problem, that's why it's their decision, jackass. Being against abortion is one thing, being a jerk because of it is another. [/B][/QUOTE]
There's no place for name-calling in a debate.
You must leave your feelings behind and consider the statements of others.

Lets put you in the baby's place.
Would YOU want some one to kill you?
I see people posting "If the mother has no money", "If the mother is in trouble"

Who are you to say the child won't find happyness in this hell?
Who are you to say the baby won't enrich the lives of those around it?

And people say "It 's ok if you kill it at [u]THIS[/u], but not at [u]THIS[/u] time"


I can't stand people who blindly follow a logic that makes them God.
But I also can't stand those who scream sinner as they themselves do sin, damn hypocrites.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]I don't see how natural birth even comes into play considering the fetus is being forced out anyway. I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I don't get how it supports much. Because something wouldn't survive coming out, it's not alive? The thing it still alive, regardless of whether or not people want to consider it an actual person or not. [/B][/QUOTE]

No it's not alive.... if you were to pull a fetus out during hte first trimester, or have a miscarriage during the time, the fetus does NOT have a possibility of living. It's not even alive yet. Well again, I suppose it's alive in the sense it's a bunch of cells together, but as far as a human being, it's not alive... and if this whole debate is about murder of a human being, this is not such the case.... if you want to say you're kiling cells, well.... thats something done on a regular basis, plus they can kep the fetus's cells alive too. So... yeah....

[Boba Fett]

[COLOR=green]I feel that abortion is wrong, in most cases.

However, I feel that the decision is not mine. I'll never be faced with a decision like this, and therefore shouldn't impose my opinion on those who may. It's neither logical nor right.

I do feel that unless a woman has been raped, or needs an abortion for medical reasons she shouldn't have one. There has to be a good reason, I mean a [I]really[/I] good reason for someone to terminate a human life.

This is a child, a human being. Sure, right now it may be a small mass of cells, but it has the potential for rapid change into a sentient being. How can you kill something that will someday be a living, breathing person?

It just boggles my mind...[/COLOR]

[Brasil]

Originally, I was steering very clear of this thread, but...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Boba Fett [/i]
[B][COLOR=green]However, I feel that the decision is not mine. I'll never be faced with a decision like this, and therefore shouldn't impose my opinion on those who may. It's neither logical nor right.[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

Boba, you said precisely what I've been saying for a long, long time. Thank you for vocalizing logic.

Now to further develop my post, as to avoid spam.

Who are we to dictate what one can or cannot do?

It seems that Pro-Choice has become Pro-Abortion, which does not seem logical [i]at all[/i].

When we analyze what "Pro-Choice" means, just in the very term itself, we see that it in no way supports nor criticizes abortion, as "Pro-Choice" supports giving a person [i]the right to choose[/i].

Call me crazy, but that's giving people a hell of a lot more freedom than Pro-Life.

That's one way I look at it; Pro-Choice gives people the right to choose, meaning not dictating what people do, and thereby supporting democracy.

Another way, think of amputation.

I say this to the Pro-Lifers I meet. "Would you like someone else dictating what you can and cannot get a surgeon to amputate?"

If my friend needed to get an amputation of a limb, for example, why in the hell should I try to dictate what that friend should do?

Sure, I can offer my opinion and guidance, but it's incredibly pompous and horribly malicious of me to attempt to outlaw or ban amputations, if I may be against it.

Just my 0.02

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=purple]one of my close friends who lives in AZ had an abortion(we went to h.s. together and she lived in the same town as me until I moved to TX, then she moved to AZ...anyways)
To be perfectly honest she's a bit ashamed that she had one, but in her eyes there was no other choice. She's not married, her boyfriend at the time was a crackhead and cheating on her, and her parents would more likely than not, be less than thrilled. Not to say that they're not nice people, but honestly, would you be thrilled with your daughter-reguardless of age- ending up pregnant by some guy who doesn't know the meaning of the word condom?
My friend who's expecting the baby in March, her mother actually offered to pay for the abortion. My friend said no (obviously) and is willing to give up a lot to have her baby.
Then I know another girl down in TX who's sister has had atleast 10 abortions simply because she didn't feel like getting all fat and bloated. How selfish is that?
I think there should be some type of regulations on abortions simply because of girls like the one I just mentioned. One abortion-fine go before the end of the first trimester and have it done. Or if you think you're pregnant, take some kind of morning after pill for gods' sakes! But then after you have it done they should make you take some classes on how to practice safer sex and maybe help you get some birth control pills or some female condoms and spermicide.
I also think partial birth abortions are just wrong. YOu went thru the whole ordeal with labor, just give the baby up for adoption if you don't want him or her. [/COLOR]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]Originally, I was steering very clear of this thread, but...



Boba, you said precisely what I've been saying for a long, long time. Thank you for vocalizing logic.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1] I said the same thing, basically. I don't care. It's not my problem. It's their choice. I am not going to say it's right or wrong.

It is wrong on some hands, on others it isn't. So I'll stand in the middle and let people do what they can; I'll be indifferent to it.

It's best to be as fair as you can in any situation...and pro-choice is definitely fair.

Just my 0.02 to add to his 0.02 so we can have 0.04.[/size]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]Think of amputation.

I say this to the Pro-Lifers I meet. "Would you like someone else dictating what you can and cannot get a surgeon to amputate?"[/B][/QUOTE]

How can you even [i]begin[/i] to compare an amputation to abortion?

Amputation is one's decision to hurt THEMSELVES. And it usually isn't life-threatening either. If you want to amputate your own arm, go for it. It's stupid and you'll suffer, but go right ahead.

But pregnancy is a whole different situtation. By having abortion you are essentially pulling the plug on SOMEONE ELSE'S life. It still boggles my mind how people can condone the option of murder.

And don't think I don't realize that women go through not just physical, but a ton of emotional turmoil as well. Pregnancy, especially unwanted pregnancy, is the single most life-changing event in a person's life. For the people who have gotten pregnant without wanting to, they're about to endure 9 months of physical pain as well as the emotional damage of their social lives.

So they get to kill someone. They get to take a life of another to relieve their burden. Why?

There are worse things that could happen, believe me. For over a year I struggled with a disease that caused me not only physical stress but emotional as well. For over [i]a year[/i]. I hadn't even done anything to bring it about. While granted, it still doesn't quite measure up to the pain of pregnancy, I'm not entirely oblivious as to what experiencing long periods of strife can be like. But where's my "kill someone free" card?

There are many, many people out there with problems worse than pregnancy that cannot simply be "disposed of".

[Justin]

I think it's impossible to have this conversation without stirring up emotion from either side.

There was a time when I did not believe in two people being inherently different. I merely thought it's just a matter of choice, or a matter of ignorance. In many cases it is. But recently I've come to realize that many times people are just different. That's not to say people can't change, but it takes a lot to do so, I think.

Anyway, in response to Transtic: That's the response I expected from you. And to that I can only say that I still consider abortion in the first trimester murder. As much as if I were to turn around and kill my younger brother behind me.

I can only define abortion as selfish. And I'm against it no matter the situation. Whether it be rape, failure of equipment, accidental, whatever--I'm against it.

In all honesty, that's all I'm willing to say. If I continue, I'll only bring more controversy to this topic.

Suffice it to say that I'm against it and always will be against it. That doesn't mean I'm against anyone here, or anyone anywhere. I'm just against the act itself.

-Justin

[Epid3mic]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]

If someone isn't mature enough to care for a baby, then they shouldn't be having sex, right? No, not necessarily. Sex and babies are two totally different levels of emotional maturity, to say that they're alike is an ignorant opinion by someone who obviously has never had sex or has never been faced with an unwanted pregnancy.

.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe that statement cannot be more wrong. Whether they have different levels of emotional maturity or not, they go hand in hand. In other words, if you aren't emotionally mature to have a baby, don't have sex. It's not that difficult a notion, in fact, it's constantly being preached in schools these days. I mean, come on, the whole biological act of sex is to [B] concieve a child[/B]! Condoms and birth control have truly spoiled the youth of today.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]I suppose it's alive in the sense it's a bunch of cells together, but as far as a human being, it's not alive... and if this whole debate is about murder of a human being, this is not such the case.... if you want to say you're kiling cells, well.... thats something done on a regular basis, plus they can kep the fetus's cells alive too. So... yeah.... [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly.

The fetus isn't a developed human being. Thus, it doesn't have human rights. It's that simple.

I actually initiated a discussion on abortion a long time ago. James brought up an interesting point that I [i]still[/i] remember. He said that the fetus is a parastic creature that relies on its host. So, he used "parasite" as a technical term to explain how it is the mother's right to decide whether or not she wishes to allow the parasite to live or die. Which, is a principle I agree with.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]He said that the fetus is a parastic creature that relies on its host. So, he used "parasite" as a technical term to explain how it is the mother's right to decide whether or not she wishes to allow the parasite to live or die. Which, is a principle I agree with. [/B][/QUOTE]

Of course, a two year old couldn't live in this world without its parents either. Its entire existance relies on its parents... without them, he/she would surely die.

I don't care what you want to call it in technical terms it is STILL a human life.

[Guest Bloodsin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B] He said that the fetus is a parastic creature that relies on its host. So, he used "parasite"[/B][/QUOTE]
All of humanity is a parasite.
We consume resources with hardly putting anything back.
Sucking life from Earth is how we survive.

No one aborted us, so we don't have the right to say it's ok.
When you get aborted, then you can tell us if it's ok or not.
However, I respect your non-aborted views.

[Semjaza]

My name calling wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I don't find it any worse than some things said in here. You yourself said people should just abort themselves. It was likely mocking as much as I was trying to, the difference being that I wasn't as clever about it heh.

There are no emotions on my part, I just don't feel that people not involved really need to have a say in something that doesn't involve them whatsoever... regardless of what it is. That's the problem I have, personally. Like I said, it's like people consider every woman who gets pregnant to be some sort of slut unless she planned the pregnancy. The feelings of the woman involved are often nearly completely disregarded.

I have no problem with people being against abortion or pro-choice or whatever else. As I said in my post, my main problem was with the people who feel some need to be insulting to those who don't agree with their anti-abortion views. Something I think has been shown in here several times already in varying strengths. Of course there are also people who aren't doing this, and I crossed that line by saying "jackass" in the first place I suppose... but it wasn't meant as anything overly insulting, just voicing how ridiculous I think it is that people think they can make these decisions for strangers.

To me religious views aren't even an issue, however, I'm not religious. For others it is something extremely important, and I can understand that. However, I'm not putting myself in a babies place for this decision. Why? Because it [i]isn't my decision to begin with[/i]. If I was in this situation, I wouldn't want my girlfriend/wife/whatever to get rid of the child, as I don't personally feel that it would ever be the right thing to do.

However, I wouldn't want anyone in my face telling me what I should be doing either. Coming from that, what other people do with decisions that affect their life is really not my problem (unless they somehow want it to be -- friends, family, whatever). End of story. Many people die daily, I'm not on a crusade for any of them.