Pro-life Pro choice. Let's be mature, kay?

[James]

[color=#707875]I think that there is a difference between a fetus and a two year old. A fetus is literally a "growth" in the mother's body. I don't know when a fetus develops consciousness/self-awareness, but I'd say that an actual fetus doesn't develop that.

In any case, my opinion on abortion is mixed.

On the one hand, I do not personally believe that abortion should be a solution when someone just makes a mistake (ie: lack of birth control). In cases where the fetus might become severely injured as a result of pregnancy (or if the fetus has a particular disease -- something that would cause it to either die as a child, or to live a life of suffering), then yes, I can see why abortion would be an option there.

However...and I think I've said this before...my personal feelings on abortion are just that. They're my own feelings. I'm not a woman. And I don't have the right to tell a woman what to do with [i]her[/i] body. If she chooses to have an abortion, because of her own circumstances, that's her choice. And it should be her choice, too.

If she chooses not to, that's fine also. Again, it's her body. It's her choice.

If I had something growing inside me -- whether it's a "potential human" or something else, I don't want someone coming up to me and telling me that I can't do anything about it. That just seems wrong to me.

I say the same thing about the issue of gay marriage as well. That is...if it doesn't personally affect you, you can have your opinion, but you don't have the right to impede the rights of others. We don't all agree with abortion. And those who do agree with it aren't just "agreeing" with the whole concept necessarily -- there are many shades of grey and "what if" scenarios there.

I think that Tony put it best. For me at least, it's not even so much a question of whether it's right or wrong -- every individual will decide that for themselves. The big problem I have is either pro or anti abortionists getting out there and trying to tell everyone else what to do. I don't like it with religion or civil rights issues and I don't like it with this type of thing either, regardless of where you stand on the issue. [/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]Of course, a two year old couldn't live in this world without its parents either. Its entire existance relies on its parents... without them, he/she would surely die.

I don't care what you want to call it in technical terms it is STILL a human life. [/B][/QUOTE]

No--it's just life. Your logic is faulty. A fetus is different from a two year old child in the sense that it's not a fully developed human being. If we're talking about a formed human being living inside the womb, my opinion changes. But, for all intents and purposes, I'm speaking of a bunch of cells. It's like picking a flower. There may be life--but it's not yet met the criteria it needs to qualify as human life. It isn't self-aware.

Furthermore, a two year old child?s inability to exist in the world without parental supervision is based on an entirely different set of reasoning than a fetus's. Biologically, a two year old doesn't require a human host to directly draw upon as a life source. That's what we're talking about here. Of course you can go on about how a child needs its parents for financial security, etc. But that's not saying it's an unformed being that?s physically incapable of surviving on its own.

The fetus I speak of has yet to even develop thought patterns.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i]
[B]All of humanity is a parasite.
We consume resources with hardly putting anything back.
Sucking life from Earth is how we survive.

No one aborted us, so we don't have the right to say it's ok.
When you get aborted, then you can tell us if it's ok or not.
However, I respect your non-aborted views. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's easy to be poetic or philosophical in a discussion. In a debate, the strong language may even help your argument. Not the way you're using it. Your logic is irrelevent to the point I'm making and largely a matter of opinion. The Earth isn't a species. We're not connected to it via an umbilical cord. We dont' grow inside the Earth. It doesn't make the conscious decision to "abort" us.

Get out of here with that.

[Guest Bloodsin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]It's easy to be poetic or philosophical in a discussion. In a debate, the strong language may even help your argument. Not the way you're using it. Your logic is irrelevent to the point I'm making and largely a matter of opinion. The Earth isn't a species. We're not connected to it via an umbilical cord. We dont' grow inside the Earth. It doesn't make the conscious decision to "abort" us.

Get out of here with that. [/B][/QUOTE]
So, your logic states that it hast to be [u]INSIDE[/u] you to be a parasite. You call my logic "irrelevent".
Yet you state that killing something before it knows what it is, is ok.

There's no difference between you and a fetus.
It needs the blood of the mother, just as you need air from mother earth.
No... there is a difference between you and a fetus.
The fetus has done nothing wrong. It's only mistake is being a mistake.
The only sin it carries is the sinful human blood that flowes through it.

Now, I'm not without my own sin, so I have no right to say this.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i]
[B]So, your logic states that it hast to be [u]INSIDE[/u] you to be a parasite. You call my logic "irrelevent".
Yet you state that killing something before it knows what it is, is ok.

There's no difference between you and a fetus.
It needs the blood of the mother, just as you need air from mother earth.
No... there is a difference between you and a fetus.
The fetus has done nothing wrong. It's only mistake is being a mistake.
The only sin it carries is the sinful human blood that flowes through it.

Now, I'm not without my own sin, so I have no right to say this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Once again, you're being over-philosophical and coming across as a borderline relgious fanatic in the way you're presenting your argument. And you're missing the point entirely.

The analogy was meant to get across the idea that a female, being the host of the fetus, has the right to seek an abortion under the right circumstances and no one should have the right to say otherwise.

So, what is your point? Are you suggesting that you have the right to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body? Or are you stringing together a bunch of poetic rhetoric for the purpose of sounding wise?

Fine. I'll play your game. Let's compare a woman to the Earth.

Let's say I meet a woman. I like her garden a lot. It's warm, moist and fertile. The grass isn't too tall and it doesn't have any bugs. So, I don't come out of it itching.

If I'm lucky, she'll allow me to play in her garden exclusively. Now, suppose I accidentally plant my seed there. [i]But[/i], she doesn't want any crops growing in there. Do I have a right to tell her otherwise? After all, it [i]is[/i] her garden.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i]
[B]So, your logic states that it hast to be [u]INSIDE[/u] you to be a parasite. You call my logic "irrelevent".
Yet you state that killing something before it knows what it is, is ok.

There's no difference between you and a fetus.
It needs the blood of the mother, just as you need air from mother earth.
No... there is a difference between you and a fetus.
The fetus has done nothing wrong. It's only mistake is being a mistake.
The only sin it carries is the sinful human blood that flowes through it.

Now, I'm not without my own sin, so I have no right to say this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bloodsin, your points are?how should I say?ill-advised. While many are able to successfully be poetic and wise by bringing in allegory and hyperbolic language?Charles comes to mind, and Mitch is beginning to develop his allegorical voice, you fall flat in doing so.

Namely, because your allegory is weak to begin with. While Earth has long since been labeled Mother Earth, to draw comparison between living, breathing humans and what is essentially, a sac of unformed cells, residing within the female cavity, is very over-the-top and does not serve a purpose, other than to?puff yourself up.

Your post is an example of an overextended personification. You?re treating Earth as a conscious organism, with decision making capabilities. We know that isn?t the case, and by using that overloaded metaphor, you?re weakening your argument, if you had an argument to begin with.

Really, I don?t see any semblance of rational thought in your replies here. I just see someone who doesn?t really know what they?re talking about and thus trying to deflect the issue by inserting an overused mythos.

Am I incorrect?

I would suggest that you take a bit of time to formulate a cohesive argument before posting, because a 6 line jumble of mixed metaphors will not get an A. A fully developed thesis will.

[Baron Samedi]

My goodness. What a glorious little ants nest I have stirred up here...

Ok. wristcutter: I have never been in that position. Which I am sure you realise. That post you quoted... I said that others should just be accepting of other people's decisions. I also said at the beginning of my post...

[quote]I am only 14. Sure, maybe I would feel differently if it was my child.[/quote]

Which makes you point there totally irrelevant.

I am not in that position. I will also never be in the female's unique position. Sure, as a male, having a pregnancy with someone affects you, but not nearly as much as a woman.

I feel that others have said it in the best possible way:

Who are we to decide what others feel. Pro-choice gives you the right to decide what you want to do.

If they make abortion completely legal, than this gives us a choice.

If you dislike abortion, don't abort. If you wish to abort, you can.

It gives you the choice to do as you want. What right do any of us have to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their property or their body? By stating that one is pro-choice all we are doing is saying that they deserve the choice in the decision.

-----

Also, might I add... Sex doesn't need to be emtionally mature. It is a primitive instinct and urge. 500 years ago, I am sure that everyone who 'got it on' was not necessarilly ready for it. Because we live at this time period, sex becomes something emotionally mature? Right... Whatever. You may say that having and caring for as baby is also instinctive. I mean, when the baby cries, the mother's breasts are actually stimulated to produce milk. It is a fact. A babies first instincts and senses are there to help them fix on their mother and learning from other objects in the world. But, in the here and now, where you are trying to place sex, you must also place having a baby. It costs money, we aren't always ready for it, and it is harder- what with jobs etc.

Sex is primitve, whereas looking after a baby is a mix. Therefore sex and having a baby are two different things in maturity levels.

----

Also, would you persecute women in Africa over female genocide? They commonly kill their children [female children] using the most horrible means, to make life better for themselves, and to save the child the indignity associated with life in that area.

Of 8000 abortions in [some year], only 1 of them was male.

And think of the countless of other muredred in the rural areas.

It is their culture, we can not judge them.

-----

They have a choice, and so do we. And that choice should never be restricted by others, as every situation is uniqe.

[James]

[color=#707875]I don't understand what you're saying about sex, Baron.

It looks like you're saying that sex isn't "emotionally mature", or that it doesn't have to be...but you seem to be putting sex and pregnancy hand-in-hand. And pregnancy is obviously something that requires maturity, at least as far as caring for a baby appropriately.

So, sex doesn't [i]require[/i] maturity...but being mature will hopefully ensure that pregnancy doesn't occur. Sex is definitely more than pregnancy and instinct. [/color]

[Baron Samedi]

Sorry James, I should have made my point more clear...

Sex originally stemmed from a primitve way of life... well, duh.

Pregnancy is also instinctive, as is caring for the child. However, people say that sex is an emotionally mature thing, which it is/isn't [at the same time].

However, we must bring sex and pregnancy into the present.

Sex is still mainly a primitve thing... thats why the stereotypical guy is so anxious to have sex, whereas the female looks more for someone who will stay and support her.

Sex is a base instinct, even in the present [it also comes under more advanced things but...], but pregnancy has changed since the past. Now, you need to be emotionally mature to fully look after a child.

Pregnancy is a thing requiring maturity, whereas sex isn't.

I was just refuting some statements above, thats all.

I know sex requires maturity, but it also doesn't. You can have sex without being mature, but you can't look after a baby without being mature.

Adoption is good, but it doesn't always work, it isn't for everyone. Basically, the decision should be up to the couple, but more specifically, the female.


********Edit******

Bloodsin.

How profound you are.

Profoundly stupid at that. It is simple to be philosophical, but make it apply, and make it worthwhile my time, please.

[James]

[color=#707875]Yeah...I think the point is still appropriate, in the sense that sex without responsibility and maturity can lead to things like unwanted pregnancy. But people who are having protected sex and who are mature obviously shouldn't be told not to have sex, on the chance that pregnancy might occur. Again, it comes down to the individual's point of view.

That's why I feel that Epid3mic's comments are very narrow and black and white. Sex [i]isn't[/i] just about pregnancy, and that's the whole point.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]If I'm lucky, she'll allow me to play in her garden exclusively. Now, suppose I accidentally plant my seed there. [i]But[/i], she doesn't want any crops growing in there. Do I have a right to tell her otherwise? After all, it [i]is[/i] her garden. [/B][/QUOTE]

That is a horrible excuse. How do you "accidentally" plant your seed?

"Oops, my penis fell in your vagina and ejaculated right then and there. I don't know how it happened!"

You can not "accidentally" get pregnant, unless you're doing a handstand while wearing a skirt and no panties and sperm is raining from the sky, but that'll be the day. Condoms and other forms of birth control are only 99% effective - so by having sex with these you are running the risk of pregnancy. It's not really "birth control", it's "risk reducer". And so if this woman gets pregnant, it was no accident. You had sex. You ran the risk, condoms or pills or what have you.

[b]EDIT:[/b] I'd just like to make one thing clear...

I realize other people don't agree with me on this issue and most likely I'm not going to change any of your minds about it. I don't think you're bad people... I may disagree with your reasons for actions but that applies to lots of things, not just abortions. But it isn't an attack on specific people at all. I realize you don't agree with what I'm saying and in your eyes you aren't doing anything wrong... so I'm really in no position to judge you on that. I'm just (obviously) very strong on this issue and can't seem to stop posting my reasoning behind my thoughts here... so that's all. How very un-wrist cutter-ish.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[COLOR=orangered]I still say I would never get an abortion myself, but I wouldn't stop someone from getting one.
I've also never been put into the position where I was pregnant and didn't know what to do with the baby (embryo, fetus, conjunction of cells).
However I do give people credit for doing what they thought was necessary. Including the friend who had the abortion.
I give my best friend credit for actually standing up to her mother and telling her she was keeping the baby.
And of course I give my biological mother props for going full term with me then giving me up.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=red]As for Bloodsin's Earth anology, I'm not all that surprized. This is the same guy who thinks that beastiality is the same as homosexuality. *shrugs* Okay, that was completly off topic.[/COLOR]
[color=crimson]I'm still amazed that nobody has ever considered putting limits on abortions or having complete medical coverage on birthcontrol. My insurance company does, but I don't think anyone else's does. One abortion is fine, but some women are just having multiple ones, that's just sick![/color]

[Baron Samedi]

Sex [i]is[/i] more than just pregnancy James, I agree completely. However, the levels of emotional maturity [i]required[/i] for sex, are an incredibly large amount less than those required for looking after a child.

People should be responsible. I am talking about abortion for unwanted, unplanned, accidental pregnancies. If you're not careful, there should be some punishment due, for sure. However... in some cases, it might be better for all involved to have the choice.

Also, I completely agree with Transtic Nerve. The trimester thing, and all that.

[scrmngfangrl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Charles [/i]
[B]I agree wholeheartedly.

The fetus isn't a developed human being. Thus, it doesn't have human rights. It's that simple.

[/B][/QUOTE]


...WTF??!!


anyway, we've been reading about some epople an pregnancy sorta recently. heres what it can look like ten years later.

a happy, smiley, full of potential fith grader.
ten years ago my older sister got pregnant at the age of sixteen. she didn't drop out of highschool. a lot of girls don't, there are clases just for teen expecting mothers. my sister finished highschool, is going to college presently, and her unplanned baby is my little sister. i can't imagine what it would be like if koral had gotten an abortion, every time i try it feels like a chunk is missing from my life. i love her so much, why would any one want to kill someone and deny a person of this?

any way...what else...crap

oh yeah, the dude on that talk radio show was talking about how these pro abortion people were getting all upset because they said laci petersons baby was also murder, saying it was just like abortion an stuff

[Baron Samedi]

Yeah.... and if she had aborted, you wouldn't have the sister, and it wouldn't bother you, and you could quite possibly be a pro-choice person.

Your sister made a [u]choice[/u], and that is up to her, which should be the case with [i]all[/i] non / abortive cases.

Or, on the flipside, is abortion allowed in your State? Maybe she merely was not allowed to abort.

'What if's' do nothing. Of course you can't imagine life without your sister. But, if she had been aborted/ not conceived.. you wouldn't be able to imagine having a sister.

And if you could, you wouldn't care.

****EDIT*****

[quote] [i]Originally posted by scrmngfangrl[/i]

oh yeah, the dude on that talk radio show was talking about how these pro abortion people were getting all upset because they said laci petersons baby was also murder, saying it was just like abortion an stuff[/quote]

Could you extend this please? You seem to be saying that Pro-Abortionists are upset over an abortion. Which makes no sense.

[scrmngfangrl]

ugh...
actually, we were overseas, could of had it done for ten bucks...

you know the laci peterson case? the drowned pregnant lady? they are also charging the murderer of the murder of her baby, which is upsetting people who think it was just like an abortion.

[Epid3mic]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#707875]
That's why I feel that Epid3mic's comments are very narrow and black and white. Sex [i]isn't[/i] just about pregnancy, and that's the whole point.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


When I said that thing about the biological purpose of sex is to concieve, I purposely did not mention love and attraction, and that's why I added the word "biological". Love is a very touchy subject. Often people just think they are in love. I assumed anyone who was truly in love, would get married and/or make sure they were capable of raising a child before the sexual act.
Just because a condom is used during sex, doesn't free the couple of fault if a child is born. Some people need to realize there is no such thing as safe-sex, only safer-sex.

Also, I think it is a bit inappropriate to call the sex drive "primitive". Until a better method of choosing mates and spreading seed is found, sex cannot be primitive.

[Kent]

First off, I really hate avoiding the true subject at hand by calling this a choice and not a specific action. (which is killing an embryo)

However, I want to stress two things. (well, three.)

I really try to avoid these subjects on the net, so please dont take me too seriously.

Second. You can't legislate morality.

Third... although I don't like the idea of aborting a baby, I do support the right of a society to use this practice.

I have too many friends that would have had ruined lives thanks to un-desired pregnancies. While the operation can represent "bad" things, it can also serve as an important and valued element in medicine as well as and more importantly, life.

It's important to remember that we all have to make these choices on our own, and that is for a reason... our situations in life are not all the same, and what is best for some might not be best for others.

So in the end, Im not gonna be involved with an abortion (if I can help it) but I surely will not support revoking a persons right to take advantage of this proceedure.

Sure abortion can be trouble, but ruining lives in order to make sure one more fetus makes it into the world is a sure fire way to create more problems than are being solved.

btw, I totally oppose the use of abortion as a last resort birth control. While it should be allowed, there should still be limits in place to prevent abuse.

[Baron Samedi]

The choice of abortion belongs solely to the mother. If she was murdered, this guy should also be charged with the death of her son. It is nothing like abortion, because the supreme and only right to abortion resides with the mother.

And the sex-drive is primitive. It is basic, and un-refined. Sex itself is sometimes a loving thing, but the actual act stems from a primitive way. There is no other way, but it is still primitive. It is a base instinct to reproduce, therefore it is primitive.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Epid3mic [/i]
[B]I assumed anyone who was truly in love, would get married and/or make sure they were capable of raising a child before the sexual act.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]But again, this assumes that sex is [i]only[/i] used for conception. And that isn't the case, as you know. So it's an invalid point, in my view.

As for sex being primitive or not...of course the fundamental biological drive of sex is "primitive". So? I don't know what that has to do with abortion.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Kent:[/i][b]
First off, I really hate avoiding the true subject at hand by calling this a choice and not a specific action. (which is killing an embryo)
[/b][/quote]

[color=#707875]I know what you're saying, but I think that's a low-blow. And it's emotive. By that standard, I should go around saying that anti-abortionists are also anti-choice. And obviously, that's not true. They're not against choice in general; only when it comes to this issue. In the same way, pro-choice people aren't "anti-life" in general. So yeah. It's important to be careful about the terms that are thrown around, I think.[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Epid3mic[/i]

Whether they have different levels of emotional maturity or not, they go hand in hand. In other words, if you aren't emotionally mature to have a baby, don't have sex. It's not that difficult a notion, in fact, it's constantly being preached in schools these days. I mean, come on, the whole biological act of sex is to concieve a child! Condoms and birth control have truly spoiled the youth of today.[/quote]

I was referring to emotional maturity levels there James. Sex is primitive, you don't need to be emotionally competent to have it. Thats what I was talking about there.

Heh.

[Jesus Chicken]

[color=blue]Meh, I don't care. If you have a problem with abortion, why don't you all have problems with condoms. They are stopping life, and in effect killing a human life. Masturbation has the same problem. It sounds like some of you are just picking what to have a problem with because outlawing one practice would inconvenience you.
People are dying as I type, people are starving and could eat the food you throw away. Money used to make entertainment and run other useless elements of your life could be spent on saving people around the world. Wheres your bleeding heart for them?
I honestly don't give a rat's-*** about it. People choose to kill other people everyday. Sure its stopping a human life but it happens so often we're getting desensitised to it.
My thoughts are probably a bit cluttered, still, I'm sure you get the gist of what I'm saying.
Worry about the bigger things first. Get over it.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Baron Samedi [/i]
[B]I was referring to emotional maturity levels there James. Sex is primitive, you don't need to be emotionally competent to have it. Thats what I was talking about there.

Heh. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I know what you're talking about. I'm just asking you what that has to do with the topic. lol[/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrist cutter [/i]
[B]That is a horrible excuse. How do you "accidentally" plant your seed?

"Oops, my penis fell in your vagina and ejaculated right then and there. I don't know how it happened!" [/B][/QUOTE]

Haven't you ever heard of a broken condom? Perhaps someone made the mistake of purchasing a condom from a men's room vending machine oblivious to the fact that they're completely unreliable because there's no knowing how long they've been in there. Maybe someone was practicing the withdrawal method and some semen still entered the vagina. Who knows?

I'm disappointed. I assumed you of all people would be able to interpret a simple play on words correctly.

[quote][b]And so if this woman gets pregnant, it was no accident. You had sex. You ran the risk, condoms or pills or what have you.[/b][/quote]

I can only refer you to Babygirl's post.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BabyGirl [/i]
[B][color=deeppink]I have always been pro-choice, and if I were faced with an unwanted pregnancy, I would have an abortion. I wouldn't feel bad about it because I know that my boyfriend and I are [i]always[/i] praticing safe sex. If I had done everything I could to prevent a pregnancy and still got pregnant [though highly unlikely], abortion would be the path that I would take.

I don't have the income to support a child, and my future/career is far too important to me. Call me selfish for thinking of myself first, but I'd really be messing up the lives of two people -myself and my partner- by not terminating the pregnancy.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[lea]

[COLOR=blue]
I knew somone in highschool that had gotten 4 abortions. When she had gotten pregnant again after that, the doctor told her that if she got another abortion, her insides would be messed up. So, what did she do? First, she tried everything in her power to kill the baby while it was inside her (drinking excessivley more than she normaly did, did more drugs than she normally did, that kind of stuff) It didnt work. So, she had the baby, gave it up to adoption. The baby is currently retarded, and maybe 1 out of a million people are willing to adopt a retarded baby. She (so far) has had one other baby, after the one she had for adoption....

I think abortion should be based on circumstances. If the mother's life is in lots of danger from having the baby or something of that nature, i think its up to the mother.....

I think if you do the deed (whethere done responsabley or not), you face the consequences, even if it doesnt suite your "ideal" future. Its not like the baby chose to be born, you know[/COLOR]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[COLOR=INDIGO]I debated a little bit over whether or not I would post my thoughts on this subject. Being a man, I realize I have an opinion on abortion, but I also have formed an opinion that my opinion is meaningless because I am a guy, I don?t have to give birth to a child.

I have always been pro-choice, primarily because life is filled with mistakes, and I wholeheartedly believe that bringing a child into the world should not be one of them. Accidents happen in life, and if a person is truly not capable of raising a child, they need to decide what the morally sound option is for them. People should practice protected sex if they are sexually active, unfortunately every now and then one slips passed the goalie. I know that I am not responsible enough, emotionally or financially, to take care of a child right now, so if the situation ever occurred I would want to be able to choose, or rather go over the choices with my partner (for it is ultimately the woman?s choice).

Obviously some people find huge moral and ethical implications when it comes to abortion. Questions such as ?isn?t killing a fetus murder?? and ?don?t you think a fetus is alive?? I understand and respect these view points, however, I don?t remember being a fetus, so I guess I have just written a fetus off as unaware?yeah, that is a stupid, illogical point but that is my point.

As far as further reasoning, Semjaza?s point on choice and right to choose more or less sums up my mindset.
[/color]