Guest Bloodsin Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 A good friend from a different site pointed this out. I thought It'd be cool to disscuss this. Consider these(The following verses are from Revelations); "17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: The great whore is going to be judged... --- 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Fornication signifies that it is a religious entity that claims to be Christian. A religious entity that is in partnership with secular rulers instead of apart from them. Catholicism satisfies this. Throughout her existence, she has partnered with secular governments to convert people to Catholicism by force, even killing those who would not convert and claiming their possessions for the church. --- 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rome sits on seven hills. Even Catholic apologists refer to it as the city on seven hills. --- 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Purple and scarlet are the official colors of the Catholic church. Catholicism is also the world's wealthiest entity. There are storage places where the church literally stores rooms and rooms of gold, precious stones, and pearls. The golden cup represents the eucharist. It is filthy because the eucharist is an idol representing Jesus Christ. The fornication is the partnership with government to kill Bible believers that were martyred for rejecting it. --- 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Catholicism in its own writings calls the eucharist and many other things, mysteries. Catholicism has created incredible amounts of harlotry with its unscriptural celibacy. Homosexual, pedophile, fornicating priests. Places have been found with piles of aborted fetuses of nuns in them. Catholicism is also a divorce mill, gladly divorcing any couple under any circumstances. Instead it is called annulment, and said that a marriage never really happened. Catholicism then proudly proclaims its opposition to divorce and fornication. The list of abominations created by Catholicism is too numerous to mention here. --- 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Catholicism has martyred Bible believers for the entirety of its 1700 year existence. --- 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. There is no salvation in the great whore. Again, Rome sits on seven hills. Even Catholic apologists refer to it as the city on seven hills. --- 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Rome had five forms of Roman government that had existed prior to when John prophesied of this great whore. The king that "is" is the existing Roman government of John's time. --- 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. The AntiChrist. --- 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Rome has divided the world into 10 regions. The banking industry has adopted Rome's 10 world divisions. The power and rulers over these regions is a future event. --- 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. The Antichrist will receive his power from the Catholic church's ten regions. --- 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. These kings which will control the 10 regions of the world will fight against Christ. But Jesus will prevail and those that accepted His finished work for sin. --- 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Catholicism is prospering in almost all, if not every, nations and by every race of person. --- 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. The 10 regions will turn on Rome. This is a future event. --- 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. It was God's will to use the secular world against it when he destroys Vatican City. --- 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rome sends the pope or diplomats all over the world to meet with secular leaders and governments. In history, whenever possible, the state was under the complete authority of the church. The pope's advice highly influences the others. Only Catholicism has this power and position that world leaders wish to cooperate and consult with it."- ArchÅngel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I dunno.. I'd be reluctant to give a complete agreement to this interpretation. Mainly because at the end of Revelation it clearly says "do not add to or take from these words". Now, you haven't changed anything in the passage you are quoting, but the whole interpretation rests on one decptive addition- that the Catholic church is in fact the whore of Babylon. That [i]may[/i] in fact be true, but at the same time the truth is it may not. The point is that this is an interpretation, and although I have little against thinking about these verses, I do believe that to rigidly state an interpretation to be truth is dangerous ground. I personally am not a Catholic. I'm not much of an anything really. I'm just a Christian. So it makes little difference to me either way if this interpretation is true. There are certainly pagan elements in Catholicism, but then at the same time there are doctrinal differences in practically all denominations. They can't all be right. And that is part of the reason why denominations have split to the point that they are at today. No-one can seem to agree on what they believe to be essentail doctrine. Few people realise that there is only one essentail doctrine, and that is salvation. People can have different opinions on all other things, but it makes them no less saved. We shouldn't split apart because of our differences in beliefs- because when we do that we isolate ourselves from people who think differently and thus lose any degree of objectivity. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. This is done because each person has a unique insight. They can bring a point of view different to others- and the more different points of view you have around you, the more likely you are to take everything into account with what you believe. Meh.. that kind of got completely off track. Anyway.. I'll have to have a long hard think about the interpretation you gave. It may well be true, but also it's far too easy to focus all our attention to one particular possibility and completely miss what actually happens. Bear that in mind ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChibiHorsewoman Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bloodsin [/i] [B]A good friend from a different site pointed this out. I thought It'd be cool to disscuss this. Consider these(The following verses are from Revelations); The great whore is going to be judged... Fornication signifies that it is a religious entity that claims to be Christian. A religious entity that is in partnership with secular rulers instead of apart from them. Catholicism satisfies this. Throughout her existence, she has partnered with secular governments to convert people to Catholicism by force, even killing those who would not convert and claiming their possessions for the church. Rome sits on seven hills. Even Catholic apologists refer to it as the city on seven hills. Purple and scarlet are the official colors of the Catholic church. Catholicism is also the world's wealthiest entity. There are storage places where the church literally stores rooms and rooms of gold, precious stones, and pearls. The golden cup represents the eucharist. It is filthy because the eucharist is an idol representing Jesus Christ. The fornication is the partnership with government to kill Bible believers that were martyred for rejecting it. Catholicism in its own writings calls the eucharist and many other things, mysteries. Catholicism has created incredible amounts of harlotry with its unscriptural celibacy. Homosexual, pedophile, fornicating priests. Places have been found with piles of aborted fetuses of nuns in them. Catholicism is also a divorce mill, gladly divorcing any couple under any circumstances. Instead it is called annulment, and said that a marriage never really happened. Catholicism then proudly proclaims its opposition to divorce and fornication. The list of abominations created by Catholicism is too numerous to mention here. Catholicism has martyred Bible believers for the entirety of its 1700 year existence. There is no salvation in the great whore. Again, Rome sits on seven hills. Even Catholic apologists refer to it as the city on seven hills. Rome had five forms of Roman government that had existed prior to when John prophesied of this great whore. The king that "is" is the existing Roman government of John's time. --- The AntiChrist. Rome has divided the world into 10 regions. The banking industry has adopted Rome's 10 world divisions. The power and rulers over these regions is a future event. --- These kings which will control the 10 regions of the world will fight against Christ. But Jesus will prevail and those that accepted His finished work for sin. --- 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. [/B][/QUOTE] [COLOR=royalblue]Okay let's up and start a holy war on otaku boards :rolleyes: Great idea. Catholicism has been around for as long as the rest of Christianity. 2000+ years. Catholism is a sect of Christianity, the same as Wicca is a sect of paganism. ( I needed an analogy ppl!) This kind of talk is why the Catholics and the Protestants have been killing eachother in Ireland for so damn long! This is why some idiots decided to have an inquisition and a few Crusades. Of course there's corruption, there's corruption everywhere. Yes, you will find some [i][b]really[/b][/i] bad popes from the early centuries. If You read Royal Scandals, you'll hear quite a few. On the colors though, oh, let me do this. It's one of the few things I remember from being Catholic! Purple represents Lent and Advent in the Church. Scarlette is Pentacost (I think, this is the one I messed up on) In a sense, you may be able to say that Catholics are idolators. This has been said only because many Catholics pray to Saints along with praying to the Holy Trinity and the Holy Virgin MAry. Rest assured, they worship the same God that you do. My husband's friend put it this way-Catholics think God delegates. This man is a Baptist and we were talking religion because he was interested in ours and we were interested in his. The reason he said this is because we got to talking about saints. In conclusion, this is a load of crap in the three letter sense and I hope you and your friend realize this as well.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rttocs77 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Revelations is a dream. It's like a surreal abstract painting that nobody can quite comprehend. You aren't suppose to take it literally (or otherwise the rapture should have happened or be happening anytime now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 More like a nightmare; heck if that's how you dream every night you've got a problem or your way to involved with your local Jewish cult whose starter committed suicide awhile ago. (*Ahem*) Bloodsin a peace of advice, don?t look for logic in the bible as a whole. Instead find little passages that agree with what you think disgrading the rest and hold onto them to prove every thing just like a fundamentalist Christians as that?s all the book is good for. Besides most of what you just said would be rebutted by a Christian who?d tell you ?oh you?re looking in an outdated version!? Dismissing every thing seems to keep them happy with their beliefs and how the church is and has been run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I think Dan best described my feelings on this situation, labelling it the wore of Babylon is dangerous gorund, and until God himslef shows up and declares this so, I'm going to remain objective. I have read the theory a dozen times, and it does hold some ground, but bear in mind a few important ideas. Rome is not the only seven hilled city in the world, nor is it the only city which has played on international fornication, is Salt Lake City the whore of Babylon? you could say that they whored the olympic comittee, you could also say that the U.S tried to whore the U.N too. (could say, I'm not actually saying the U.S whored the U.N) I differ on praying to Mary,I myself belive this to be making her a pagan godess, and there's also the verse in Timothy that speaks of Celibacy being the doctrine of Devils. We all belive the same essentials on salvation anyway, and while it may look from face value the the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, let's remember if it's not, we will fall under judgement for condeming God's people. They may have martyred the early Christians who did not believe their ways in the Inquisition, remember they have branched off from the Roman empire, thanks to Constantine, which, under Nero, persecuted christians relentlessly, Point is, even the church can make mistakes, do we still condemne Germany for the horrors of the holocaust inflicted by the Nazis? i should certainly hope not. I'll leave you with one last word, a golden rule form the new testament, do not judge others unless you yourself want to be judged, why? because Judgements divide people, and I dare say this thread will offend our Cathloic OB'ers, that's why Judgements is best left up to God, people would screw it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epid3mic Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 --- 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Fornication signifies that it is a religious entity that claims to be Christian. A religious entity that is in partnership with secular rulers instead of apart from them. Catholicism satisfies this. Throughout her existence, she has partnered with secular governments to convert people to Catholicism by force, even killing those who would not convert and claiming their possessions for the church. --- Not neccesarily. The whore could, and I believe, simply signifies sin. The fornication is saying that the kings of earth have indulged themselves with it. If it meant the Church, it would be a bit inappropriate to say "The inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." --- 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rome sits on seven hills. Even Catholic apologists refer to it as the city on seven hills. --- At the time the books were written, Rome was, well, to put it bluntly, the capital of the world. This was well before Constantine's conversion. This could simply mean the beast stems from the greatest world power, not neccesarily the Catholic Church. --- 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Purple and scarlet are the official colors of the Catholic church. Catholicism is also the world's wealthiest entity. There are storage places where the church literally stores rooms and rooms of gold, precious stones, and pearls. The golden cup represents the eucharist. It is filthy because the eucharist is an idol representing Jesus Christ. The fornication is the partnership with government to kill Bible believers that were martyred for rejecting it. --- As far as I know, there are no "official" colors of the Church. There are official colors used by the Church in different times of the liturgical year, however, including purple and scarlet, but you can't ignore green, white, gold, and black. I have never heard of such rooms. It seems quite ridiculous, and I would like to see some proof. The eucharist is not an idol. For it to be an idol it would have to be something other than Christ, for an idol is considered, by christians, anything other than God (Taking the trinity into account). Once again, the fornication could just as easily mean evil. --- 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Catholicism in its own writings calls the eucharist and many other things, mysteries. Catholicism has created incredible amounts of harlotry with its unscriptural celibacy. Homosexual, pedophile, fornicating priests. Places have been found with piles of aborted fetuses of nuns in them. Catholicism is also a divorce mill, gladly divorcing any couple under any circumstances. Instead it is called annulment, and said that a marriage never really happened. Catholicism then proudly proclaims its opposition to divorce and fornication. The list of abominations created by Catholicism is too numerous to mention here. --- A mystery is a word meaning something that is unknown, that Catholic church uses it in that exact context, there is no reason the bible can as well. Do you not know the Church does not believe in sola scriptura? Something being unscriptual is no base for an argument against Catholicism. The reason priests are required to remain celibate is because they represent Christ, who was celibate. A divorce mill, eh? That argument is completely unfounded. Have you the records of every anulment request? I doubt it. Every time man is given a position of power, sooner or later corruption will come. The Catholic Church is no exception. There have certainly been many bad church officials. But, I think it is reasonable, not to blame the whole for the sins of the individual. --- 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Catholicism has martyred Bible believers for the entirety of its 1700 year existence. --- A martyr is anyone who dies for their faith. Almost every religion has there share of martyrs, including Catholicism. Entirety? When was the last time you heard of someone being officially put to death by The Church for not being Catholic? That's about all I'll reply to now, since most of the rest went on things established up there. But one more thing, Shinji, you are a bit off on your history of the Church. Constantine and Nero were two seperate Roman emporers. Nero persecuted Catholics during his reign. Constantine made Catholicism the official religion of Rome during his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Yeah, I should have posted it the other way around, talked about the Nero times first and then the Constantine times. I muddled it up, but that's what I meant, the point though is that the Church came out of a regime that originally persecuted all Christians (Nero would have gladly martyred Catholics), they made a few errors in bringing the conversion by sword into the Catholic Church, but we all make errors, it's why were human and God's God. If I'm not mistaken Pope John Paul the second made an apology for this a little while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 God loves the Catholics too, people. The whore is not the Catholic church...it's the Apostate church. What's that? A body(including believers from ALL denominations) of pseudo-Christianity that will eventually give way to the church of the anti-christ. Who or what this church is or surrounds is not important. All that's important about it is that it's real. But yes...I would have to say that it's this kind of talk that keeps the Church divided into denominations. There is a lot of work to do. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drix D'Zanth Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Considering the taboo nature of the thread and of recent threads, Ive decided to close this one off. Why? Because as much blood has been squeezed from stone on this issue. I feel Justin gave the thread plenty of finality and put it best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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