No child left behind

[Brasil]

[quote]First, I'll state for the record that I have no real motive for typing this, other than self-expression.[/quote]

That's what makes the world go 'round, dude. :)

If I sound harsh in the following, don't worry about it.

[quote]I took it for granted that I would get a lame duck teacher at some point in my life, and figured you just have to work with what you have.

In that sense, I might be biased; if I can overcome a crappy teacher and still do al right in the class, I'm not that sympathetic to those that don't.[/quote]

That was your first mistake: assuming something; taking something for granted.

When we take something for granted, we lose touch with the reality of a situation.

While you may have had a positive outcome, the negative outcomes far outnumber the positive ones. Looking at high schools today, there are far more mediocre students than there are exceptional ones. We look at the majority of students, and the majority of students would sooner...go play Smash Bros Melee or Soul Calibur II than write that essay on General Robert E. Lee. It's simply the way things work.

[quote]Now, the NCLB act; I'll admit handily that I did'nt know anything about the act's legislation until this thread was started. The accusations that were flying, that the act would close the school if a student failed, seemed so incredibly counter-productive that I couldn't believe such legislation would pass Congress.

So I looked it up to find out what was going on. With such recent knowlege regarding the act, I really am in no position to argue semantics. My opinion on the legislation is this: President Bush was trying to do what he and his advisors thought best. Everyone wants to improve public education. Whether or not what the administration did actually would be successful remains to be seen.

(Admittedly, I'm a bit cautious when people instantly take to ragging on the President's actions. With Bush-bashing being the fashion, it pays to consider whether what is being assaulted is an action, or an action [u]done by Bush[/u].)[/quote]

But after reading it, you do see the extreme harm it can inflict upon the educational institution, and thus see where those "flying accusations" were coming from. It is an issue of being knowledgeable before writing off someone's viewpoint, which I feel you failed to do in your previous post, and that is why I..."called you on it." You weren't knowledgeable about your point or purpose of that post, which is why it came out very muddled and haphazardly.

[quote]Now, my views on education. I speak only as a student, and not as one with experience in the teaching profession.

My views on education is that higher education is the shared responsibility of the student and the teacher. (Parents need to be heavily involved in early stages, but as time goes on, they're needed less and less.) A teacher must be trying to teach and a student must be trying to learn.

However, in this relationship, the student has the more powerful position. This is because the student is capable of learning without the teacher. Whether or not the student chooses to learn is a far more important choice that what the teacher decides to do.[/quote]

I feel there needs to be clarification here.

The conventional definition of "higher education" refers to college-level instruction. When you speak of higher education and the need of a "shared responsibility of the student and the teacher," and the parents' "need to be heavily involved in early stages, but as time goes on, they're needed less and less;" it is a very strong indication that you are indeed referring to college-level instruction.

On your point there, I agree with you. The professor-student dynamic is very important in college, and many professors find themselves mentoring students, whether through Advisor positions or even just offering guidance along the student's collegiate [i]adventures[/i] (hehe.). The administrative-student bond is strong, as well. I have bonded with the English Department secretary, and many of the officers in the Student Activities Office. I relax in the English Suites, chatting with my professors.

Now, where you should clarify is this passage;

"However, with this relationship..."

It is not entirely clear that you are still talking about collegiate level. Your choice of phrasing was ambiguous.

"However, in this relationship, the student has the more powerful position. This is because the student is capable of learning without the teacher. Whether or not the student chooses to learn is a far more important choice that what the teacher decides to do."

Even examining this point, which I have determined to be further discussing college, you must be careful. Here's why.

Yes, the student is capable of learning without the teacher in a college environment. However, college professors are not the type to just let a student slide by. They are often even harder on tardy students, or those who sleep in class, or those who do not complete the reading. Might I also add, that a missed reading assignment on a college level is quite deadly to the student's course progress.

There is this "safety net" that pre-college students are told about, how your professors will not care if you skip class, or come in late, or leave early. That is yet another heinous educational myth, and one that future teachers, and current teachers, should be working to thoroughly debunk.

Many students are in for a shock upon entering college, and rightly so.

College students are in control of their academic results for the most part. There are extenuating circumstances that occur fairly frequently, however. I'll touch on that more when I am at the necessary point.

[quote]I'm not sure why my earlier post comes off as anti-teacher, when I historically side with teachers. I place more responsibility on students, as a rule.

A teacher that say the "Students don't want to learn" is a bad teacher, emphasis on [i]student[b]s[/b][/i]. Plural. I'm not talking the odd unmotivated slacker student, I'm talking their students in general.[/quote]

Again, you are failing to take into account student populace. You are basing your opinions [i]solely[/i] on your experiences, which in this discussion, is ill-advised. Here is why.

While your case may have been a special one, an exception to "the rule," it is far from the reality of high school, or schooling in general.

As I mentioned previously, the majority of high schoolers would be more inclined to get drunk, high, or just waste their nights away doing nothing.

And that is not limited only to outside school. Every time--yes, every time--my English classes went to the computer labs to work on in-class essays, only a small handful of students would actually work on the paper. And this is not only my [i]personal[/i] experience. I have gone into the computer labs when other classes were there and saw the same thing.

"I'm not talking the odd unmotivated slacker student, I'm talking their students in general."

This is far from the case. It is not only one occasional unmotivated "slacker" student. I go as far as to say, at least 3/4 of the student populace demonstrates this behavior. It is certainly not an isolated incident, as you portray.

[quote]As for the phrase "failed me"; I simply cannot, on my priciples, condone the use of that phrase, at least not as much as it is used. It indicates a lack of responsibility for the outcome, and because, to my way of thinking, anyway, the student has more of an impact on their education than their teachers. The student takes the tests and does the projects. If they do good work and understand the subject matter, they should not fail.

Perhaps it is merely my own personality, but I can't stand it when students say that. If you fail, it is most likely your responsibility. You recount a personal incident, where it seems by what you said that you were well-aquainted with the subject material, but you left outt he most important detail: the basis on which you recieved a failing grade.[/quote]

Before starting on the extenuating circumstances, I will suggest that you are viewing things in a very ?black and white? motif. I advise against that. It will not suit you in the long run, and I propose, will only hurt you in the future.

Ah, yes. The extenuating circumstances.

The Sociology of Education instructor's methods were questionable at best. Not to say she graded unfairly, but she really did not grade at all. Not only did we never receive the pop quizzes back, not once did she go over the material covered in them. Considering, also, that she based the pop quizzes on one tiny paragraph of on average, a 20 page reading. I believe the shortest reading assignments we had were 15 pages.

The "big" assignments were few and far between. We had no final exam, nor a mid-term. Finals and mid-terms are quite customary, mind you. Instead, we had a mid-semester paper worth approximately 40% of our grade.

This would not seem so damaging, but she had a "No Late Paper" policy that she mentioned once in our 5 page syllabus, and nowhere in her "lectures," which, might I add, were an hour and a half each. She did not give leeway in technological issues, even though the majority of our classroom participation grade depended on a rather archaic and sometimes volatile WebCT program, which was essentially a giant message board. I recently ran into a classmate of mine from the course and she relayed her current grade situation. She had disagreed about her final grade, at which our professor agreed to talk to her about it. This student emailed the professor within a week of the semester ending, only to get no reply until sending a second email a few weeks later. The professor?s reply fell back on a corrupted file or virus in her computer. I find it very questionable that the professor saw no harm in blaming technological issues when it suited her. Surely you see that, too, Deathbug?

Further, she was a researcher. Meaning, she was not a full-fledged instructor. She spent most of her adult life living in third-world countries, studying third-world schools. She played us some of the video in class.

Even further, the Teacher Prep Department directors aren't very fond of her. They have now introduced an alternate course to fulfill the Teacher Prep requirement, taught by a very respected and effective instructor, meaning, not her.

Satisfied? :)

[quote]I'll gladly admit that I am biased against that phrase, because the students I always hear using it are the slackers who didn't put effort into the class in the first place. tHe whole phrase reeks of a lack of responsibility for the results of your education. My biggest pet peeve is responsuibilty, and how no one takes it any more.

I do not believe I said that a student should take control of their class; I said they should take control of their education. tHe materials are there, even if the teacher is apathetic. More than likely, they've got a book and the class outline, and more than likely, they can procure one if they don't.

I do still believe that a student who "isn't challenged" has no excuse for not passing. You have to pass your easier classes to move onto more difficult ones, even if it's boring to do so. There is some personal bias in that, because I "wasn't chalenged" for two years until I changed school systems and got some recognition and relocation. [/quote]

Here is where you will need further clarification in the future.

In a high school environment, surely you agree that the majority of students are unable to pick up the chemistry book, math book, even English book, and effectively teach themselves?

As much as it is dangerous to say this, and as much as I don?t want to, high schoolers are really just a blank slate. There are a few shiners here and there, but generally, the teachers have the power to change their students? lives, to change the course of their educational career.

I realize where you?re coming from, and how proud you are that you accomplished so much with what you were given, and I truly and deeply commend you for it. I seriously do. But, you have to examine this from a wider standpoint; you have to view this with the gray area in mind.

That gray area is the majority.

[quote]As for the lawsuit statements....gah, what was I drinking when I wrote that crap? I was feeling mean-spirited; please disregard that garbage, and proceed to flog me until I get the point.

Basically...I feel that education is the shared responsibility of the teachers and the students. I aklao feel that my earlier posts were disorganized, mean-spirited crap. Thanks for calling me on it instead of letting me continue to make a fool of myself. ^^;;[/QUOTE]

EDIT INSERT: Now that you agree it is a shared responsibility, do appreciate what the teachers are saying, please. No longer automatically write-off something that you feel does not apply to you, because in the long-run, it does affect you. I am very confident that this NCLB will come back and bite us.

Hehe. I?ve long since stopped flogging. Just doesn?t get the same positive response like it used to. >_<

And, don?t worry about making a fool of yourself. I was glad to point it out, so you could better understand the big picture.



PoisonTongue

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][font=century][size=1]
I'll just address this point-by-point...

Yes, I took it for granted I would have bad teachers at some point in high school. My school has seven periods. I could have had as many as fifty-two different teachers in four years. Odds are, one of them wouldn't be up-to-snuff. I think that it would be naieve of me to think I would have only great teachers; I would have lost contact with reality with that attitude, rather than just accepting I'll end up with a bad teacher at some point, then moving on with my life.

Yes, there are more mediocre students; however, most students have potential. The next Einstien's interests in Pysics may have been crushed by an apathetic teacher who wrote off the entire class.

It's nothing new to say that most students are mediocre; ten-percent of the world has been supporting the other ninety-percent for a while now.

I see the harm that the NCLB act could inflict, but I also see the benefits if it actually achieves what it's trying to do. in my opinion, it can go either way. I'd have rather waited to get more concrete and proven legislation, myself, but I'm not a policy maker...yet...

When I said "higher education", I was speaking of high school. Apparently that is the incorrect usage. I can't comment on college very well, having not attended. Ask me next December about college.

I am aware that a large part of my beliefs are based on my experiences; my experiences are the only ones I completely trust.

I would argue that 3/4 is too high a number to place on unmotivated students, but my data is all based on my own experience. Motivation is a hard thing to quantify nationaly.

Some situations are black and white. I'm aware that a great many of the more complicated issues have gray areas, but it is knowledge about a subject that produces the gray area. I'm not really an expert in education, having not given national education systems much thought, at least in this manner. So, its' a black and white issue for me unless I become informed-enough in it to see the gray area.

The arguments for and against the NCLB act that I've read have actually produced a gray area for me. If you wanted to talk about something else, say....limiting the ammount juries may award plaintiffs in punative damage lawsuits....that's a gray area right there, and because I study it, I can tell you why. Knowledge produces the gray area; I don't have a lot on this subject, so I don't see as much of a gray area as you do.

You must admit that your circumstances in which you were failed (I'll admit it) were a bit unique. I've never heard an advanced student say that the teacher "Failed them". The only people I hear saying that are those that didn't even bother. I just dislike that phrase.

I think I'm done clarifying myself....I'm gonna' go play Smash Bros. Melee, or maybe Soul Caliber II.


[/color][/font][/size]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
Yes, I took it for granted I would have bad teachers at some point in high school. My school has seven periods. I could have had as many as fifty-two different teachers in four years. Odds are, one of them wouldn't be up-to-snuff. I think that it would be naieve of me to think I would have only great teachers; I would have lost contact with reality with that attitude, rather than just accepting I'll end up with a bad teacher at some point, then moving on with my life.

Yes, there are more mediocre students; however, most students have potential. The next Einstien's interests in Pysics may have been crushed by an apathetic teacher who wrote off the entire class.

It's nothing new to say that most students are mediocre; ten-percent of the world has been supporting the other ninety-percent for a while now.[/quote]

The bottom line is, [i]everyone[/i] has had or will have mediocre instructors. Knowing that you will run into a few bad apples is one thing; letting it rule your entire belief system is something entirely different.

See, Deathbug, you are letting your assumptions/experiences/beliefs become everyone else's reality. You are essentially forcing those around you to adhere to your educational beliefs.

You succeeded where others failed. So what? Props and kudos to you, but that doesn't mean you can...insult or belittle those others who weren't able to do what you did.

To turn this hypercritical eye on them is quite ill-advised, and is something I strongly advise you to work on.

There's a quote I've heard a few times at college,

"No, everyone around you isn't stupid and you're not normal; everyone around you is normal and you're an exception."

It'd suit you well to take that to heart. :)

"Yes, there are more mediocre students; however, most students have potential. The next Einstien's interests in Pysics may have been crushed by an apathetic teacher who wrote off the entire class."

I think that's going a bit extreme, there. I realize you intended for a hyperbolic example, but...that certainly does not support your argument.

And since you bring up Einstein...you do know that he got mediocre grades in his elementary, middle, and high school (I believe) classes? He received mediocre grades because he was bored with the work. He failed classes because he refused to show his mathematical procedures. I think it's fairly safe to say that his instructor was to blame, and I would think that if we were to ask Einstein, he would blame his instructor, as well.

Does that mean Einstein was a bad student? That he deserved to fail?

"It's nothing new to say that most students are mediocre; ten-percent of the world has been supporting the other ninety-percent for a while now."

This sounds very bitter. Surely you are not under the assumption that you have been helping to support 90% of your school? I should hope you aren't.

[quote]I see the harm that the NCLB act could inflict, but I also see the benefits if it actually achieves what it's trying to do. in my opinion, it can go either way. I'd have rather waited to get more concrete and proven legislation, myself, but I'm not a policy maker...yet...[/quote]

"Concrete and proven legislation"

We're talking about politicians here, keep in mind. Rarely do we ever get concrete legislation. I think expecting a "better" version is foolish. We're dealing with what we were given, and that is the NCLB legislation that we've been discussing over the past two pages.

We should examine NCLB closely. Yes, there are benefits to it, but look at what the requirements for the benefits are, and look at what school systems are already on the warning list, and considering that the bill went active last year, correct? These schools only have two years left to get their acts together, if their acts were faltering to begin with.

Take Cinnaminson High School, for example. The grades...suck. I attended CHS. Now, the grades have slipped even more in the three years since I graduated. This NCLB just bitchslapped CHS. If the grades there are unable to improve, the instructors and administrators run the risk of being fired. I can guarantee that those instructors are on the top of their game. Only once or twice did I have a teacher who was a bit scatterbrained here and there. The rest are sharp. My Frosh year Earth Science teacher consistently drilled us. You couldn't get anything past him. If you were bullshitting your presentation, he made sure to correct you. Considering the wide variety of topics, covering a range of material, he could not be faulted for anything.

The other instructors there are no different.

Let me ask you, do the benefits of NCLB outweigh this danger of good teachers getting canned?

I don't know if you watched Last Comic Standing, but one comic there--Rob, I believe, was an elementary school teacher. When the judges were asking him questions, one asked, "Now, are we gaining a great comic, or losing a good teacher?"

The educational institution cannot afford to lose teachers who know how to teach. That is the bottom line.

And what I see happening with this NCLB, is precisely that. Teachers can only do so much; it is up to the students to finish the job, and when students fail to succeed, the teachers are not to blame, except in those unique circumstances.

[quote]When I said "higher education", I was speaking of high school. Apparently that is the incorrect usage. I can't comment on college very well, having not attended. Ask me next December about college.[/quote]

Now since we are aware of your specific discussion points, let's re-examine your statements, shall we?

[quote][i]Originally posted by Deathbug[/i]
My views on education is that higher education is the shared responsibility of the student and the teacher. (Parents need to be heavily involved in early stages, but as time goes on, they're needed less and less.) A teacher must be trying to teach and a student must be trying to learn.

However, in this relationship, the student has the more powerful position. This is because the student is capable of learning without the teacher. Whether or not the student chooses to learn is a far more important choice that what the teacher decides to do.[/quote]

Deathbug, you still have not sufficiently clarified your statements.

In this excerpt, "higher education" is high school, correct? Very well, let's examine it.

How many high schoolers do you know that their parents are not involved at all in any aspect of their high school experience?

I ask because those students whose parents are totally uninvolved...we should not hold that against the student. When we present that as evidence against the student, we should be disgusted with ourselves. Tell me you do not hold lack of parental involvement against the student.

Deathbug, I should let you know right now, that you are sounding incredibly negative and cruel to the student populace, and that is making me doubt you more and more.

Now, "however, in this relationship."

Are you still talking about high school? If so, you are wholly mistaken.

"However, in this relationship, the student has the more powerful position. This is because the student is capable of learning without the teacher."

Incorrect. You possibly missed my previous statement.

[quote][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue[/i]
In a high school environment, surely you agree that the majority of students are unable to pick up the chemistry book, math book, even English book, and effectively teach themselves?

As much as it is dangerous to say this, and as much as I don?t want to, high schoolers are really just a blank slate. There are a few shiners here and there, but generally, the teachers have the power to change their students? lives, to change the course of their educational career.[/quote]

Since you are admitting to be referring to high school with the "student capable of learning without the teacher" idea, I refer you to my above quote, and re-express my opinion that you are basing everything that...should be...on your own experiences.

Like I said previously, you were an exception. You do not apply to the rest of the student populace, and to present yourself as representational of the whole, or "the norm," is wholly uneducated about the educational process.

[quote]I am aware that a large part of my beliefs are based on my experiences; my experiences are the only ones I completely trust. [/quote]

I rest my case. You are untrusting of anyone other than yourself, which means I can no longer treat your post as possessing any significant quality.

[quote]I would argue that 3/4 is too high a number to place on unmotivated students, but my data is all based on my own experience. Motivation is a hard thing to quantify nationaly.[/quote]

You admit that you are only viewing this from your own perspective, from your own limited experiences.

[quote]Some situations are black and white. I'm aware that a great many of the more complicated issues have gray areas, but it is knowledge about a subject that produces the gray area. I'm not really an expert in education, having not given national education systems much thought, at least in this manner. So, its' a black and white issue for me unless I become informed-enough in it to see the gray area. [/quote]

"I'm not really an expert in education, having not given national education systems much thought, at least in this manner."

Again, I need not say anything.

[quote]The arguments for and against the NCLB act that I've read have actually produced a gray area for me. If you wanted to talk about something else, say....limiting the ammount juries may award plaintiffs in punative damage lawsuits....that's a gray area right there, and because I study it, I can tell you why. Knowledge produces the gray area; I don't have a lot on this subject, so I don't see as much of a gray area as you do.[/quote]

"I don't have a lot on this subject, so I don't see as much of a gray area as you do."

[quote]You must admit that your circumstances in which you were failed (I'll admit it) were a bit unique. I've never heard an advanced student say that the teacher "Failed them". The only people I hear saying that are those that didn't even bother. I just dislike that phrase.[/quote]

Ah, but in a collegiate level, those are not unique circumstances.

"The only people I hear saying that are those that didn't even bother. I just dislike that phrase."

1) "Only people." Limited experience.

2) "I just dislike that phrase." Don't do it. Do not fall back on "it's my opinion."

[quote]I think I'm done clarifying myself....I'm gonna' go play Smash Bros. Melee, or maybe Soul Caliber II.[/QUOTE]

^_^

Speaking of Melee, everyone wish me luck next Friday. I'm heading out to Pittsburgh for a gaming tourney.


PoisonTongue

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=century]I am completely and totally aware that my views on education are limited, and based mostly on my own experience. They are weak, don't stand up to scrutiny, and probably shouldn't be held by anyone making educational policy.

And they work just fine for me. I only have to get myself through the education system at the moment, and I'm not yet old enough to vote on education legislation or candidates who support/oppose it. I'm kinda' not sure why I felt a need to rant on education in the first place.

When I will be voting on candidates, or sending a child through the education system, the need will arise for me to look beyond my own experiences and heavily consider facets of the public education system I never bothered with before.

Until then, I don't have the time to do so. Not to belittle education at all, but I can't do anything to affect it at present, and didn't give it a lot of thought prior to writing that post.

You, obviously, are heavily involved in education, and have had to consider it in many respects. Of course you will unerstand it better and have different opinions than I do, and have more facts to support them. I've begun studying law, and I'll soon (hopefully) have different opinions on the legals system than I do now, and will be better able to understand it and its relevancy and effect on many others, not just myself.

And like the man said, that's all I really have to say about that. Have fun in Pittsburg.[/color][/font][/size]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B][color=indigo][size=1][font=century]I am completely and totally aware that my views on education are limited, and based mostly on my own experience. They are weak, don't stand up to scrutiny, and probably shouldn't be held by anyone making educational policy.

And they work just fine for me. I only have to get myself through the education system at the moment, and I'm not yet old enough to vote on education legislation or candidates who support/oppose it. I'm kinda' not sure why I felt a need to rant on education in the first place.

When I will be voting on candidates, or sending a child through the education system, the need will arise for me to look beyond my own experiences and heavily consider facets of the public education system I never bothered with before.

Until then, I don't have the time to do so. Not to belittle education at all, but I can't do anything to affect it at present, and didn't give it a lot of thought prior to writing that post.

You, obviously, are heavily involved in education, and have had to consider it in many respects. Of course you will unerstand it better and have different opinions than I do, and have more facts to support them. I've begun studying law, and I'll soon (hopefully) have different opinions on the legals system than I do now, and will be better able to understand it and its relevancy and effect on many others, not just myself.

And like the man said, that's all I really have to say about that. Have fun in Pittsburg.[/color][/font][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Now, here comes "Teacher Alex," as I work this post back into the main topic of the thread, NCLB.

"I am completely and totally aware that my views on education are limited, and based mostly on my own experience. They are weak, don't stand up to scrutiny, and probably shouldn't be held by anyone making educational policy."

You have just described the majority of politicians who created NCLB.

As I have done in this thread, in heavily scrutinizing the legislation, I have proven that those responsible for the legislation's criteria are quite uninformed of the true nature of education, and you have just given us the definition of what I have been illustrating.

"I'm kinda' not sure why I felt a need to rant on education in the first place. "

And I am very confident that the legislators and politicians responsible for NCLB will be saying the following in two years;

[quote]I'm not sure why I felt the need to attempt to enforce such a drastic change on education in the first place.[/quote]

"Not to belittle education at all, but I can't do anything to affect it at present, and didn't give it a lot of thought prior to writing that post."

I wonder if the legislators gave education any thought prior to writing the NCLB proposal? They probably thought about it for a long time, but since they are not entirely knowledgeable about the educational institution, nor what it truly needs, as you just admitted you were, they really have no leg to stand on.

DeathBug, I'm glad this discussion took place; it allowed everyone here to see just what was going on in education.

Glad you participated; thanks very much, bye.