Gaming What's a Girl Gamer to Do?

[Shinmaru]

[QUOTE=dark_serena][SIZE=1][COLOR=Purple]:nope: Okay. Tell me. [i]Why[/i] is this such a big deal?

GIRL GAMES? Video games are just video games! Christ, people! I don't keep track of how many girls I know play video games! So what if the "majority" of them don't! There's probably a reason. Either they're simply not interested, didn't grow up with them, or would rather do something else. Almost every person (girl or boy) I ask, they say they've gotten into video games because a family member did, or they just simply grew up playing them. My sister is obssessed with Tomb Raider and Donkey Kong, and she's 17. I'm 18, and I've been playing games nonstop for 15 years and counting.

And besides, not every girl likes video games, and neither does every guy. :rolleyes: And I'm sick of all this "boy vs. girl" competition. All it consists of is button-mashing, if you strip the scenario raw. I wouldn't call that an accomplishment. Just because a guy beats a girl at a certain video game, it shouldn't really mean much (unless he's got an infantile attitude about it), and just because a girl beats a guy at a video game, it doesn't mean that she's better than him at anything else.

Simple. I don't apologize if I've burst a few bubbles.

But on the other hand, I find that almost every guy assume they're better than everyone else, and most satisfying thing is taking [i]anyone[/i] down. And I don't even boast about my abilities before or after the game, especially if I've won. I make it seem like it wasn't a big deal, because it wasn't, really.

So, yeah. There's my input. See it any way you'd like. :cool:[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

Not that I really saw anyone here doing it (they might have, I don't know), but, yeah, that "boy vs. girl" nonsense gets more than a tad annoying lol. It's just stupid when you see a full blown argument about who has video game supremacy...get over yourselves and just have some fun with the video games lol.

Anyway, sure, I think it's cool when girls play video games, but I think it's cool when [i]anyone[/i] plays video games. Hell, a lot of my family still plays games (I've taken on my uncle more than a few times in Super Smash Bros. Melee and he's getting near his mid-40s lol). The reason why a lot of guys say "Oh, it's hot when a girl plays games" is because they're not used to seeing girls play games, at least that's what I get from people that say that. I know that not many girls around here play video games and the only girl that I ever really liked around here was a semi-avid gamer...so, there might be some truth to that :p

[Brasil]

You know, at both ends of the spectrum, this topic makes no sense at all.

On one end, guys think girl gamers are sexy, and really, not to echo Feminist ideals, but that's just sexism right there, lol. Yes, it's nice when a girl is into gaming as much as a guy is, and surely that's more in common between the two of them, but to call a female gamer "sexy" simply because she plays video games? I honestly can't see the logic in that. I highly doubt that going up to a female gamer and saying, "Hey, you're into games? That's sexy" is going to get you bonus points, a date, or a kiss at the end of the night.

And on the other end of the spectrum, a girl who isn't into games at all is viewed as an alien, in a sense, someone who...is in another world all of her own, a world that cannot be understood by the male gamer, and thus a world that has little bearing.

Like Shinmaru has said, it's cool when a girl is into gaming. But that's it. I've known plenty of great girls who weren't into gaming, and I've known some real disturbed girls who were avid gamers, so an interest in gaming does not relate to the quality of the girl. Frankly, I don't base my opinion of a girl on her gaming tendencies, at all.

Gaming is a hobby of mine, nothing more. I do it to relax on the weekends, I take a trip out to Pittsburgh every so often. And even then, the Pitt Trips are not only for the gaming. They're about the human interaction. I didn't have fun with the gamers out in Pitt simply because they were gamers. I enjoyed their company because they were decent human beings.

So, using an interest in video games as some sort of scale of rating a girl...has no point whatsoever. Like I said, if a girl is into gaming, cool. If she isn't, cool. I look for quality of character more than quality of gaming.

[Ashura]

If you can get ahold of it, Hyper Magazine (an awesome Aussie magazine, for those who don't know) ran a really good article on girl gamers, and some of the stereotypes that they have to face. I'll find out what issue it was in and get back to people.

On a personal note, I wouldn't mind getting my *** handed to me by a girl in any video game. It'd be a change from everyone else doing it! Seriously, I can't believe the stereotypes put upon girl gamers. I have a mate who is female and likes video games quite a bit. She always turns up to the 'games days' that I organise, and she's exactly like the rest of us, ready to frag all day! We've never put crap on her for being a girl gamer, but I have seen it happen to to others. All I can say is that these people are really sad. Plus, its always funny to see them trounced by the girl they were bagging out afterwards!

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]I think what guys usually mean when they says that girls who play video games are sexy is just that it's a plus to their appeal. . . . Or at least that's how I mean it. Myself, I'm friends with some really nice girls that aren't into gaming, and that's fine; it would just be cool if they were, so that we'd have another fun thing to do together. I wouldn't think they were any better for liking games, they'd just be more a little more attractive to me personally because we'd have that in common. Just because a girl happens to like games doesn't mean I'm automatically going to like her, though. A girl's like/dislike of video games doesn't make or break a friendship.[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Just give everyone strange looks back. It works for me. People think I'm weird for being a female RPGer and also in her 20's.

Think of it this way, everything is weird to someone in someways. For example, I think it's weird that my mother-in-law doesn't shower, but she sees no problem with it.

Besides, I've kicked my brother's butt in video games since before there was PS2 Ans I make a pretty mean Vampire[/color]

[Brasil]

Des, precisely my point. This post isn't directed at you, of course; it's just me elaborating.

Because gaming is about human interaction--it's a social event, really--it needs the right people to work. There is only so much fun one can have in SCII, for example, if they are only concerned with the technical merits of the game, and are unaware of the human element inherent in successful gaming environments.

What is wonderful about this inherent human element, is that it has no natural gender distinction. Anyone can enjoy games. Everyone has that potential to enjoy some game, somewhere.

Basically, there is a gender distinction because we put it there. We apply it. And, just looking at the past 10 years, we've seen an [i]incredible[/i] societal revolution in that socially-imposed gender distinction. The transformation is mindboggling, really. Not to say that female and male gamers hold the same marketshare, because that's not true at all. What I [i]am[/i] saying, is that those gender stereotypes and gender distinctions are beginning to break down.

Of course, there are still genres that do not appeal to the female gamer (FPS comes to mind), but I don't attribute that to social expectations. That seems more to be...just an intimidation, akin to what Tony has mentioned about the 3D vs 2D.

I know that a non-gamer cannot be forced to become a gamer, and I would never support the effort to "convert," as it were. But what seems to be a viable option to ease a non-gamer into it, like Sciros mentions, start with Mario Tennis or Mario Party. These games are simple enough to entice, but still are complicated enough to give the non-gamer a fairly sound foundation on which to build, provided the non-gamer is interested.

But we must keep in mind that gaming is not the center of the universe for anyone, gamers included. It should be treated like a hobby, and...it should be a hobby, quite frankly.

A well-rounded individual can accomplish far more than someone who is devoted to video games. Video games are not the only things to be taken in moderation, either. Any form of entertainment needs to be taken in moderation, whether it be anime, TV, movies, parties, whatever.

I think everything would run much more smoothly if we all became casual gamers, both in action and in mentality, because the majority of the public are casual gamers, and if we honestly want to be friendly to other gamers, we can't come on so strongly.

This touches back upon not forcing someone to play, but letting them explore for themselves.

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a female gamer, and there is no such thing as a male gamer. I view gaming as I view life: an opportunity to have fun.

That's it from me for now.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I think what's frustrating about it for guys is that guys almost have to pick between the two: games? or girls? What should I spend my time working on? I can go out with some girls I like to some boring club and do nothing, or I can play Halo with my hairy man-buddies all night long. Wouldn't playing Halo with some girls I like be that much better? Well, yeah, if they could keep the gaming experience as intense as the hairy man-buddies do. You know what I mean?

Guys like fun stuff and guys like girls, and they like doing fun stuff with girls. Watching movies with girls? No problem. Playing sports with girls? No problem. Just goofing around, playing a board game or something with girls? No problem. Etc, etc. Playing video games with girls? Problem!

Yeah anyway that's my perspective on it.

[Brasil]

Sciros, don't look at it as sex versus gaming. That's why you're so frustrated. Look at it as simply human interaction versus human interaction. That's what gaming is. Human interaction. Whether it's an Official Tourney, a small town's little gathering of its gaming populace, a few people bringing in an N64 to the local high school to play during Drama Rehearsals (true story, lol), it's about social gatherings. It's about getting together with people you know and having fun, and this is no different between girlfriends or the guys.

It's actually a very interesting point. When one starts seeing a girl, one naturally spends more time with her, often leaving one's buddies to their own devices. And this is a natural flow of life, nothing to be worried about, because as long as those buddies understand and are supportive, they will always be there. Sometimes, however, people have a hard time letting go, or people have serious attachment issues/fears of abandonment, but that's really another topic entirely.

Simply, girlfriend/buddies depends on balance and understanding. The balance comes from providing equal time to both, and the understanding is two-fold. One, understanding is required on everyone's part so that things run smoothly, no matter what the evening's activities, and two, understanding of life itself and the processes found in it.

[James]

[color=#707875]As a footnote to what you said there, Alex, I think it's important to note that when you're in a relationship (whoever it is that you're with and whatever their hobbies are), there's give-and-take involved.

Obviously both of you won't thoroughly enjoy every single hobby that your partner has. So rather than saying something like "it's cool if she likes what I like", it's better to say that each of you will dabble in the other person's hobby a little bit, whether it's games or anything else. Know what I mean?

In terms of gaming specifically, I've rarely come across people in my own dating history who have thoroughly enjoyed gaming. I can only think of one person (my most recent relationship and also my longest) who actually had some interest in gaming (mostly Zelda, which was fine by me lol).

But gaming is gaming, like any other hobby. If the partner I'm with doesn't like it, that doesn't mean I have to choose between games or the girl, as it were. It just means that I have to incorporate both into my life as is appropriate.

I also think that there are a lot of stereotypes surrounding girls and games. I know that my two sisters play games like Halo and GTA a lot more than I do. My oldest sister found Animal Crossing boring, but much preferred the frantic action of Mario Kart. And she was addicted to Goldeneye. So it's not as though she preferred so-called "girly games". It came down to individual taste, rather than taste based on some kind of sexual boundary.

If you look at the statistics, you'll find that a massive number of gamers in North America are actually women over the age of 25. I don't have the exact figures with me, but I believe that it's estimated that about 40% of gamers are women. And a majority of those are over 18. If I find the results again, I'll present 'em here.

Whether the survey is accurate or marginally accurate, it still paints a picture that largely contradicts the stereotype. Games like The Sims really helped to change this trend too; the vast, vast majority of Sims players are women.

It's also true that The Sims is more of a "girls' game". It's a game that may appeal to female non-gamers, as well as female gamers who may not be interested in blowing stuff up or racing cars. The sheer fact that it's based on character relationships, as well as having a strong creative component, has helped to draw in female gamers.

I tend to find that female gamers would generally prefer to create, rather than destroy, during a gaming experience. With males it's often the opposite.

But that is most definitely a broad generalization. We're all individuals and there are obviously various tastes within each sex.

In general though, there are far too many stereotypes out there about female gamers and gamers in general. In today's market, things are far more even-handed than one might expect and more and more companies are deliberately targeting women.

One of the reasons that GBA and GBA SP have been so successful, for example, is because a lot of women are buying them. Again, this is what made The Sims the highest selling PC game ever; it was tapping into an audience that most games ignore with their marketing.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Anime_fangurl*247']Sciros, don't look at it as sex versus gaming. That's why you're so frustrated. Look at it as simply human interaction versus human interaction. That's what gaming is. Human interaction. Whether it's an Official Tourney, a small town's little gathering of its gaming populace, a few people bringing in an N64 to the local high school to play during Drama Rehearsals (true story, lol), it's about social gatherings. It's about getting together with people you know and having fun, and this is no different between girlfriends or the guys.[/quote]

Heh. You make it seem like I'm some sex-starved gamer geek, lol. Of course video games is just a social thing; a way to spend time with other people. I was just thinking about why most guys care whether or not girls play video games, and tried to come up with some reason.

For me personally, it's not frustrating in a "sex vs gaming" way. If you read an earlier post of mine, you'll see that in my case the problem is even though my g/f does hang out with me when I play video games, I don't think she enjoys it all that much. She says she does, but I don't know if I believe her. That's why I'm waiting for something she'll like, such as Mario Tennis.

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Heh. [b]You make it seem like I'm some sex-starved gamer geek[/b'], lol. Of course video games is just a social thing; a way to spend time with other people. I was just thinking about why most guys care whether or not girls play video games, and tried to come up with some reason.[/quote]
Aren't you?

[quote]For me personally, it's not frustrating in a "sex vs gaming" way. If you read an earlier post of mine, you'll see that in my case the problem is even though my g/f does hang out with me when I play video games, I don't think she enjoys it all that much. She says she does, but I don't know if I believe her. That's why I'm waiting for something she'll like, such as Mario Tennis.[/QUOTE]
Funny you should mention the whole "girlfriend saying she enjoys it" thing. Just last night I was describing particular adventures to my girlfriend, most notably the Potty Break Backstab described in the Insane Gaming Moments thread here, and the Tourney day on the Pittsburgh Trip.

Now, she is not a gamer at all. Not at all. But as I was relating the Golden Gun brutality in the Complex, she was getting as excited as I was. I find that while non-gamers aren't particularly interested in the actual playing, tech and such, a good storyteller, describing the human element, can connect with the non-gamer.

Because, like we've said, the human element is the core of gaming. All the great stories you hear don't mean sh-t if they're just about tech. If someone doesn't give the context of a particularly vicious Smash Melee battle, or High Noon Draw (-10 Health. Pistols. First to 5) in the Facility, then they have no idea what they were doing. I can say that without any hesitation. Gaming is about the experience of interacting with human beings, not holding a controller and slamming buttons.

And because this human element, this bond, this connection is inherent in every human being, that is the way to entice the non-gamer: to show them the beauty of a unity brought about by something as simple as 17 gamers huddled around two couches, all mesmerized by a LAN game of Double Dash.

You want to be sure your girlfriend is having fun? Don't have her sit there while you play, lol. I can [i]guarantee[/i] she's lying straight to your face when she says she's having fun. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind she is bored out of her mind. And really, having her sit there while you play only further reinforces the "alienated gamer" stereotype, further widening the gap between real people and those with controllers for hands.

I'm not against gaming, of course, but I do not treat it like an outlet for a social outcast. It's all about the experience of connecting with people, whether through actual gaming or just watching someone turn into a little kid as you relate what wondrous adventures you've had in the past six years.

James, as an addendum to your footnote, heh, of course I don't disregard the give-and-take aspect of a relationship, but it's important to keep in mind that gaming should be compartmentalized. Obviously, a relationship depends on an equal effort from both people involved, and I agree entirely that give-and-take is required. But it is foolish to place an overly heavy emphasis on any one particular facet in one's life. That's where the "it's cool that she likes video games" idea comes from. To be able to appreciate the positives, but also to be able to see the whole picture. Similar to...see the forest and the trees, I think.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Anime_fangurl*247']Aren't you?[/quote]
No. I'm a gamer geek, though.

[QUOTE]You want to be sure your girlfriend is having fun? Don't have her sit there while you play, lol. I can [i]guarantee[/i] she's lying straight to your face when she says she's having fun. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind she is bored out of her mind. And really, having her sit there while you play only further reinforces the "alienated gamer" stereotype, further widening the gap between real people and those with controllers for hands.[/QUOTE]
I'm not worried about stereotypes here. And she only sits while I play because that's what she says she wants to do. It's weird, I think, but when I suggest doing something else she'll often say that she's fine just sitting there. Maybe she does really like watching me play for all I know. And I do try to keep it pretty funny. Anyway, when she does want to do something else she says so. And it's actually not that often that I do play games when she's around.

[QUOTE]I'm not against gaming, of course, but I do not treat it like an outlet for a social outcast. It's all about the experience of connecting with people, whether through actual gaming or just watching someone turn into a little kid as you relate what wondrous adventures you've had in the past six years.[/QUOTE]
Well, gaming is a lot of things. More than anything, it's a form of entertainment. It's just as much about enjoying a good PC RPG on your own as it is about telling people all the cool stuff you did in that RPG.

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']No. I'm a gamer geek, though.[/quote]
Could have fooled me.


[QUOTE]I'm not worried about stereotypes here. And she only sits while I play because that's what she says she wants to do. It's weird, I think, but when I suggest doing something else she'll often say that she's fine just sitting there. Maybe she does really like watching me play for all I know. And I do try to keep it pretty funny. Anyway, when she does want to do something else she says so. And it's actually not that often that I do play games when she's around.[/QUOTE]
If you're describing this situation precisely how it is, then you should be worried about stereotypes. Sciros, no matter what she tells you, and no matter what your [i]perception[/i] of the reality is, she is not enjoying watching you play video games. I'm telling you that's how it is. I know from experience. It's common sense, even. You should be able to pick-up on her disinterest simply from her body language, from how she carries herself as you blast through a stage in Ninja Gaiden.

"When she does want to do something else she says so"

Why do you think she has to say so? Because you haven't taken the initiative.

[quote]Well, gaming is a lot of things. More than anything, it's a form of entertainment. It's just as much about enjoying a good PC RPG on your own as it is about telling people all the cool stuff you did in that RPG.[/QUOTE]
How many times must I say this, lol.

It's not what you [i]do[/i] in a game, it's not about the cool stuff you can do, no matter console or MMORPG. It's [i]how[/i] you tell the story. Talking PC RPGs, fine. I was describing Star Wars Galaxies to my girlfriend last night, just in passing, as a supplemental note in our discussion about human interaction. Had I just explained the game, fact by fact, in a purely technical sense, I might as well have been talking to my computer. But [i]how[/i] I told the story got her interested. I've said it before and I'll repeat it now.

Storytellers are what makes the world go 'round. You can have the most interesting experience ever, but if you are unable to adequately tell that story, it's useless. And someone can have the most mundane life, but if they can bring passion to it, make it exciting, it can reach people in ways you never imagined. I've got a thread here in the Lit forum that illustrates precisely this. A Title For It. On the 4th, maybe 5th page, but go find it.

My point is, tech gaming will only do so much. It has a cap to its potential. The human interaction, though, the ability to touch upon the very sense of wonder and love for excitement that is inherent in all human beings, that, Sciros, that is limitless, and that is what you need to concentrate on, if you wish to have a successful relationship.

Concentrate on the person, not the game. When someone sees that they have your attention, that you are excited to be around them (hehe), that you enjoy their company and love telling stories in an effort to make them feel welcome in a situation, they will be more inclined to participate in activities that you enjoy, like gaming.

This touches back to what James has said with give-and-take.

[Guest The Silent One]

[QUOTE=dark_serena][SIZE=1][COLOR=Purple]:nope: Okay. Tell me. [i]Why[/i] is this such a big deal?

GIRL GAMES? Video games are just video games! Christ, people! I don't keep track of how many girls I know play video games! So what if the "majority" of them don't! There's probably a reason. Either they're simply not interested, didn't grow up with them, or would rather do something else. Almost every person (girl or boy) I ask, they say they've gotten into video games because a family member did, or they just simply grew up playing them. My sister is obssessed with Tomb Raider and Donkey Kong, and she's 17. I'm 18, and I've been playing games nonstop for 15 years and counting.

And besides, not every girl likes video games, and neither does every guy. :rolleyes: And I'm sick of all this "boy vs. girl" competition. All it consists of is button-mashing, if you strip the scenario raw. I wouldn't call that an accomplishment. Just because a guy beats a girl at a certain video game, it shouldn't really mean much (unless he's got an infantile attitude about it), and just because a girl beats a guy at a video game, it doesn't mean that she's better than him at anything else.

Simple. I don't apologize if I've burst a few bubbles.

But on the other hand, I find that almost every guy assume they're better than everyone else, and most satisfying thing is taking [i]anyone[/i] down. And I don't even boast about my abilities before or after the game, especially if I've won. I make it seem like it wasn't a big deal, because it wasn't, really.

So, yeah. There's my input. See it any way you'd like. :cool:[/color][/size][/QUOTE]


I actually quite agree with you on this point, it doesn't matter, its just that where i am its not very often that i actually see a girl who is interested in the same type of games that i like, (RPG) i have however seen plenty of girls playing video games.
And like you said it doesn't matter who beat who as long as they had fun playing.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Anime_fangurl*247]If you're describing this situation precisely how it is, then you should be worried about stereotypes. Sciros, no matter what she tells you, and no matter what your [i]perception[/i] of the reality is, she is not enjoying watching you play video games. I'm telling you that's how it is. I know from experience. It's common sense, even. You should be able to pick-up on her disinterest simply from her body language, from how she carries herself as you blast through a stage in Ninja Gaiden.

"When she does want to do something else she says so"

Why do you think she has to say so? Because you haven't taken the initiative.
[/QUOTE]
*Sigh* Don't think you know how we interact or how my g/f acts. She is very quiet, and talks to nobody but me, and even then not too much. I often have nothing to go on but body language and how she "carries herself." And I manage well enough, I think, cause we've been together for while now and know each other somewhat well.

She doesn't have to say she wants to do something else because I "haven't taken the initiative." Throughout my playing a stage in Ninja Gaiden I will have suggested a hundred other things that I figured she'd rather do, and she says that she's fine and it's fun enough to watch me curse at the ninja for being a klutz.

Anyway, don't assume too much here. My g/f is much more complex and difficult to figure out than you'd think. More so than other girls I've dated or known. I wish that weren't the case, but it is.

[QUOTE]It's not what you [i]do[/i] in a game, it's not about the cool stuff you can do, no matter console or MMORPG. It's [i]how[/i] you tell the story. Talking PC RPGs, fine. I was describing Star Wars Galaxies to my girlfriend last night, just in passing, as a supplemental note in our discussion about human interaction. Had I just explained the game, fact by fact, in a purely technical sense, I might as well have been talking to my computer. But [i]how[/i] I told the story got her interested. I've said it before and I'll repeat it now...[/QUOTE]
What I said in my previous post had to do with video games in general, not video games and relationships. I don't play single-player games so I can tell people stories about them, and I usually [i]don't[/i] tell people stories about them. (But the few I do are interesting enough, and that's not really any matter of concern for me.) Of course it makes no sense to describe games to people in a boring or "tech" way or whatever, especially if they aren't interested in games to begin with. I wasn't talking about that at all.

[Brasil]

Quick post here, then I'm off to take a few Finals.

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]*Sigh* Don't think you know how we interact or how my g/f acts. She is very quiet, and talks to nobody but me, and even then not too much. I often have nothing to go on but body language and how she "carries herself." And I manage well enough, I think, cause we've been together for while now and know each other somewhat well.

She doesn't have to say she wants to do something else because I "haven't taken the initiative." Throughout my playing a stage in Ninja Gaiden I will have suggested a hundred other things that I figured she'd rather do, and she says that she's fine and it's fun enough to watch me curse at the ninja for being a klutz.

Anyway, don't assume too much here. My g/f is much more complex and difficult to figure out than you'd think. More so than other girls I've dated or known. I wish that weren't the case, but it is.[/quote]
If your girlfriend is much more complex and difficult to figure out than your previous relationships, what makes you so sure you are able to accurately figure out what she is thinking, as she sits there quietly while you play? You see, you see her sitting there quietly, offering to do something else, etc, and she is saying, "No, I'm fine." Correct?

And you are basing your behavior on that perception, correct? That is your problem.

Sciros, if anything, you are basing the meaning of this situation on a superficial value. You're taking everything at face value.

My girlfriend is the exact same way. Very quiet, reserved, outgoing occasionally, but generally, a subdued individual. Don't begin to think that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to a quiet girlfriend.

Think about what I'm saying here. Think about the subtleties of life. You have a habit of missing subtleties. Work on that and when you are able to actually see a situation in all of its complexity, and not only what you [i]want[/i] to see, you will find that you've been doing things quite incorrectly.

I say that without any insult whatsoever.

"She says that she's fine and it's fun enough to watch me curse at the ninja for being a klutz."

And you are ready to believe that?

I don't want to say you're a horrible boyfriend, but...

[quote]What I said in my previous post had to do with video games in general, not video games and relationships. I don't play single-player games so I can tell people stories about them, and I usually [i]don't[/i] tell people stories about them. (But the few I do are interesting enough, and that's not really any matter of concern for me.) Of course it makes no sense to describe games to people in a boring or "tech" way or whatever, especially if they aren't interested in games to begin with. I wasn't talking about that at all.[/QUOTE]
Since you are trying to change the meaning of your post in an attempt to counter my rebuttal, let's have a look. And even better, I'll include what you were replying to.

[quote name='Anime_fangurl']I'm not against gaming, of course, but I do not treat it like an outlet for a social outcast. It's all about the experience of connecting with people, whether through actual gaming or just watching someone turn into a little kid as you relate what wondrous adventures you've had in the past six years.[/quote]
[quote name='Sciros']Well, gaming is a lot of things. More than anything, it's a form of entertainment. It's just as much about enjoying a good PC RPG on your own as it is about telling people all the cool stuff you did in that RPG.[/quote]
Sciros, my previous point there dealt directly with the human interaction and storytelling aspect of gaming. What you said in response to that was in direct response to those points, and thus were related to my subject matter, which was human interaction and the storytelling aspect of gaming.

What do you think "entertainment" is? Not only electronic mediums. Beowulf, oral tradition. Your own words betray you. The entertainment is [i]based[/i] on the oral tradition.


Finals, here I come. Later.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Anime_fangurl*247]If your girlfriend is much more complex and difficult to figure out than your previous relationships, what makes you so sure you are able to accurately figure out what she is thinking, as she sits there quietly while you play? You see, you see her sitting there quietly, offering to do something else, etc, and she is saying, "No, I'm fine." Correct?...
And you are basing your behavior on that perception, correct? That is your problem.
Sciros, if anything, you are basing the meaning of this situation on a superficial value. You're taking everything at face value.
My girlfriend is the exact same way. Very quiet, reserved, outgoing occasionally, but generally, a subdued individual. Don't begin to think that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to a quiet girlfriend.
Think about what I'm saying here. Think about the subtleties of life. You have a habit of missing subtleties. Work on that and when you are able to actually see a situation in all of its complexity, and not only what you [i]want[/i] to see, you will find that you've been doing things quite incorrectly....
"She says that she's fine and it's fun enough to watch me curse at the ninja for being a klutz."
And you are ready to believe that?
I don't want to say you're a horrible boyfriend, but...[/QUOTE]
PT, I don't know what makes you think you know my girlfriend better than I do. What makes you think you are "able to accurately figure out what she is thinking?" "A quiet girlfriend" isn't the most precise description of her, so "don't begin to think" that you know what you're talking about when you're talking about her. You don't know whether she deals in subtleties as much as you think she does. I don't deal in subtleties myself, that's all you know. On top of that, [i]I[/i], not you, am the one to judge how correctly or "incorrectly" I do things. Based on the kind of relationship my g/f and I have (which you don't have a good grasp of regardless of what you may think) I'd say I've been doing things correctly enough. ...And what makes you think I'm seeing what I "want" to see?
You assume that there's no way someone could possibly mean it when he/she says it's fun enough to just watch someone play a game. I myself have said numerous times in the past, however, and meant it. You also assume that the situation I described happens very frequently. You assume I "see her there, sitting quietly" as opposed to us talking about something the whole time. You assume too much to make the kinds of judgments that you make.
I politely ask you to drop the subject altogether. Based on where your replies have been heading, you might end up saying something you'll have to apologize for. So we'll end the discussion here.

[QUOTE]Sciros, my previous point there dealt directly with the human interaction and storytelling aspect of gaming. What you said in response to that was in direct response to those points, and thus were related to my subject matter, which was human interaction and the storytelling aspect of gaming.

What do you think "entertainment" is? Not only electronic mediums. Beowulf, oral tradition. Your own words betray you. The entertainment is [i]based[/i] on the oral tradition.[/QUOTE]
What utter nonsense. If you reread what I replied to ("[Gaming] is all about the experience of connecting with people, whether through actual gaming or just watching someone turn into a little kid as you relate what wondrous adventures...") you'll hopefully notice that you made a general statement about [i]gaming[/i] which I didn't fully agree with. Your post did deal with the human interaction aspect of gaming, but my post said that that wasn't all there is to it. My post therefore referred to the whole of gaming, not to just the human interaction involved in it.

As for what I think "entertainment" is, I seem to have a better grasp on it than you. Entertainment is not only based on the "oral tradition" as you put it. Sure, some of it is, but when I played Baldur's Gate I and II there was no "oral tradition" or human interaction involved whatsover. It was purely personal entertainment. So my point, once again, is that there's more to the whole of entertainment, and gaming, than just the "human interaction and storytelling" aspect.

[QUOTE]Finals, here I come. Later.[/QUOTE]
Best of luck.

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] Well, I can honestly say that I can beat most of the guys at my school [that I have had the opportunity to play with] at Super Smash Bros. Melee. and a good portion of the guys at my Korean school. :) I am proud of that.

But anyways, the video game industry will target boys mainly for a long time. I think it's in most females' personalities that they don't find killing each other in virtual worlds appealing. I mean...I don't think there's a better explanation for it. *mumbles* I don't mean to be narrow-minded, but it's true. I watch G4 [television channel dedicated to video games] occasionally and they use scantily clad models dressed up in random video game outfits and the hosts always comment on how good-looking a girl character is and etc. I don't mind, because buisness-wise it's better to adverstise toward the main audience. Common sense.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Yeah it's definitely true that games are mostly marketed to guys. I mean really, if every movie ever released was action/adventure and was marketed the way games are marketed nowadays, the ratio of males to females in the moviegoing populace would be much bigger.

Many games are marketed toward everyone (Pikmin, Zelda, FF, etc.). But many "blockbuster" titles are much more guy-oriented (and have guys as main characters)--GTA, various FPSs, etc.

Fighting, shooting, racing--these are "guy" things that guys enjoy doing/watching in real life much more than girls.

Content and marketing really does make the audience.

[Brasil]

Sciros, I'm continuing this because it's important. There are distinctions that need to be realized here. Keep in mind, I'm doing this to help, so it's not an attack, despite what you think my tone is. Okay? Here we go.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']PT, I don't know what makes you think you know my girlfriend better than I do. What makes you think you are "able to accurately figure out what she is thinking?" "A quiet girlfriend" isn't the most precise description of her, so "don't begin to think" that you know what you're talking about when you're talking about her.[/quote]
Are you sure you know her as well as you think you do? You've said that you don't deal in subtleties. You've admitted that you don't go deeper into a subject if you are satisfied with a superficial reaction. How are you able to say, then, that you know your girlfriend enough to be content in deciding she is fine with what you are doing?

[QUOTE]You don't know whether she deals in subtleties as much as you think she does. I don't deal in subtleties myself, that's all you know. On top of that, [i]I[/i], not you, am the one to judge how correctly or "incorrectly" I do things. Based on the kind of relationship my g/f and I have (which you don't have a good grasp of regardless of what you may think) I'd say I've been doing things correctly enough. ...And what makes you think I'm seeing what I "want" to see?[/QUOTE]
Sciros, look at this. Think about it. You're taking something at face value, correct? You are not willing to consider the possibility that there is more than just the tip of the iceberg, correct? If you're unwilling to entertain the idea that maybe you don't know your girlfriend as well as you think you do, then how can you possibly be sure of the situation? If you haven't entertained all the possibilities here, how can you be certain you're looking at this with a well-rounded perspective, that has considered every possibility?

And what makes you think you're seeing everything in this situation? How can you be so sure that the tip of the iceberg is [i]only[/i] the tip of the iceberg? Are you really willing to take that chance?

[QUOTE]You assume that there's no way someone could possibly mean it when he/she says it's fun enough to just watch someone play a game. I myself have said numerous times in the past, however, and meant it. You also assume that the situation I described happens very frequently. You assume I "see her there, sitting quietly" as opposed to us talking about something the whole time. You assume too much to make the kinds of judgments that you make.[/QUOTE]
No, what I'm saying is, there is absolutely no way for your girlfriend to mean it when [i]she[/i] says it. You are an entirely different story, with entirely different motivations. Last you checked, Sciros, you [i]are[/i] a guy, right?

Also, she is a woman, and women do operate much differently than you think you understand them. And Sciros, I can say without ego that I have a much clearer idea of how women think. I'm telling you that "I'm Fine" is not good. And let me ask you, if she's so quiet all the time, and in fact, you have said in your previous posts how she is very quiet, often only talking to you, and even then, often, not at all. So, which is it? Is she talkative? Do you hold conversation? Or is your original statement accurate? What is the truth?

[QUOTE]I politely ask you to drop the subject altogether. Based on where your replies have been heading, you might end up saying something you'll have to apologize for. So we'll end the discussion here.[/QUOTE]
Why, Sciros? Why do you suddenly want to withdrawal from this discussion? What could I possibly be getting at that is so upsetting for you? What could I be getting at that would shatter the very foundation of your point here? What are you afraid of? What could I possibly say that would hurt you so much that you would need an apology?

[QUOTE]What utter nonsense. If you reread what I replied to ("[Gaming] is all about the experience of connecting with people, whether through actual gaming or just watching someone turn into a little kid as you relate what wondrous adventures...") you'll hopefully notice that you made a general statement about [i]gaming[/i] which I didn't fully agree with. Your post did deal with the human interaction aspect of gaming, but my post said that that wasn't all there is to it. My post therefore referred to the whole of gaming, not to just the human interaction involved in it.

As for what I think "entertainment" is, I seem to have a better grasp on it than you. Entertainment is not only based on the "oral tradition" as you put it. Sure, some of it is, but when I played Baldur's Gate I and II there was no "oral tradition" or human interaction involved whatsover. It was purely personal entertainment. So my point, once again, is that there's more to the whole of entertainment, and gaming, than just the "human interaction and storytelling" aspect.[/QUOTE]
Baldur's Gate? You know, funny you should mention Baldur's Gate. You are aware of the origins of Baldur's Gate? Dungeons and Dragons, a tabletop RPG, driven by pure human interaction. The plot and progression of Dungeons and Dragons are conceived purely by the human element. Furthermore, think about what the game is. Look at the setting, the tone, the characterizations. Think about Beowulf. The similarities are uncanny.

Oral tradition is the very foundation of gaming. Baldur's Gate only serves to strengthen my point, and weakens yours.

[quote]Best of luck.[/QUOTE]
Thank you much. Considering I got a perfect grade (150/150) on the 11 page Ahab/Smith essay, and the majority of the Melville/Faulkner exam was on Moby Dick, I think I did quite well.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Anime_fangurl*247']Are you sure you know her as well as you think you do? You've said that you don't deal in subtleties. You've admitted that you don't go deeper into a subject if you are satisfied with a superficial reaction. How are you able to say, then, that you know your girlfriend enough to be content in deciding she is fine with what you are doing?[/quote]
I know her well enough just like anyone knows anyone well enough. How do you know when your friends are serious and when they're joking? After you're around a person enough, you pick up on his/her mannerisms and his/her methods of communication.

[QUOTE]Sciros, look at this. Think about it. You're taking something at face value, correct? You are not willing to consider the possibility that there is more than just the tip of the iceberg, correct? If you're unwilling to entertain the idea that maybe you don't know your girlfriend as well as you think you do, then how can you possibly be sure of the situation? If you haven't entertained all the possibilities here, how can you be certain you're looking at this with a well-rounded perspective, that has considered every possibility?[/QUOTE]
PT, you probably don't realize that you're not the only one I've discussed this with. I've talked about it with my girlfriend on a few occasions actually, and based on our discussions as well as the fact that we've been together for a while now, I got a pretty decent idea of what she means when she says what. The reason I find it weird that she was fine watching me play by myself the few times I did is because if the roles were reversed I'd be bored. But I know that she and I have different tastes when it comes to entertainment in general. And I also know that she wouldn't B.S. me by saying one thing when she means another.

[QUOTE]No, what I'm saying is, there is absolutely no way for your girlfriend to mean it when [i]she[/i] says it. You are an entirely different story, with entirely different motivations. Last you checked, Sciros, you [i]are[/i] a guy, right?

Also, she is a woman, and women do operate much differently than you think you understand them. And Sciros, I can say without ego that I have a much clearer idea of how women think. I'm telling you that "I'm Fine" is not good.[/QUOTE]
Har. You're so wrong to say that there's no way that my girlfriend means she's enjoying watching a game when she says she is. She is [i]my[/i] girlfriend, after all, and you know my interests. Video games [i]is[/i] one of them. So if she says she's "fine," it's very possible that she is. I'm not [i]sure[/i] if she is, but you can't be sure she's not. I don't know why you think you have a much clearer idea than I do of how women think. I have no idea where you got that. If it's just from this discussion, well that is just silly.
When I say "I'm fine," I mean it. When everyone I know says he/she is "fine," he/she means it, including my girlfriend. Trust me on that, I know her. The only problem I had at all with the situation I initially described was that if I were her I'd want to play, not watch. She's fine watching (well also it might be that she's so far watched me beat one level of Ninja Gaiden and an hour or so of Beyond Good and Evil and that's probably about it for games she didn't join in for at least part of the time), but I know that she'll like Mario Tennis more than watching anything, so I want to get that game.

Honestly, if you knew my girlfriend personally, maybe something you say would have some weight. But as it is you're "understanding" someone you [i]don't[/i] know better than a person who does, based on the bizarre conclusion that you understand women in general so well.

[QUOTE]And let me ask you, if she's so quiet all the time, and in fact, you have said in your previous posts how she is very quiet, often only talking to you, and even then, often, not at all. So, which is it? Is she talkative? Do you hold conversation? Or is your original statement accurate? What is the truth?[/QUOTE]
She is quiet. She does talk mostly to me. She's not very talkative even then, but we do hold conversation. We never just sit around, unless we're watching a movie. If I was just playing GCN or Xbox or something and she was just sitting around not doing anything and we weren't talking, that'd just be weird.

[QUOTE]Why, Sciros? Why do you suddenly want to withdraw from this discussion? What could I possibly be getting at that is so upsetting for you? What could I be getting at that would shatter the very foundation of your point here? What are you afraid of? What could I possibly say that would hurt you so much that you would need an apology?[/QUOTE]
You're not getting at anything, to be honest. Nothing you've said has cleared anything up, and if you think you're even nearing "shattering the very foundation of my point," you're way too sure of yourself. There's nothing to "shatter." You simply don't understand the situation as well as you think, and you're making various unfounded conclusions as a result. It's not doing anyone any good, so you ought to stop it altogether.

[QUOTE]Baldur's Gate? You know, funny you should mention Baldur's Gate. You are aware of the origins of Baldur's Gate? Dungeons and Dragons, a tabletop RPG, driven by pure human interaction. The plot and progression of Dungeons and Dragons are conceived purely by the human element. Furthermore, think about what the game is. Look at the setting, the tone, the characterizations. Think about Beowulf. The similarities are uncanny.
Oral tradition is the very foundation of gaming. Baldur's Gate only serves to strengthen my point, and weakens yours.[/QUOTE]
Um, did you miss something? I said my playing Baldur's Gate had nothing to do with human interaction. It was personal entertainment and nothing more. I don't know how you can argue that. Yes, it's based on the D&D universe and ruleset, but that doesn't mean that human interaction is part of the gaming experience. It simply isn't.

Everything conceived by society has some origins in human interaction. But that's not a very worthwhile generalization to argue, because on a personal level that human interaction doesn't always come into play. What human interaction is there to my playing my GBA in the car on a vacation trip? Do you see what I'm talking about? It's not the same aspect of gaming as what you were initially talking about, but my whole point was there were many aspects to it in all.

[QUOTE]Thank you much. Considering I got a perfect grade (150/150) on the 11 page Ahab/Smith essay, and the majority of the Melville/Faulkner exam was on Moby Dick, I think I did quite well.[/QUOTE]
That's cool. Yeah I read your Ahab/Smith paper it was a good paper. I wish my exams were paper/essay. (Listen to this: my "knowledge-based systems" midterm had "TRUE, FALSE, or AMBIGUOUS" questions on it :confused: . It was ridiculous.)

[Shinmaru]

Okay, I'm just going to step in here right now...I know neither of you want this to escalate into something big like what's happened in other threads, so I'm going to have to ask you guys to relegate this to PM from here on out. I know that you guys are trying to avoid a malicious argument, but I think it's for the best if two people don't dominate a thread, heh.

[Ashura]

One thing that I find quite funny is that Lara Croft is considered by many to be role model for female gamers. Now, this seems a bit suss, as the developers of the original Tomb Raider in an interview specified that Lara Croft was used instead of a male character because the gamer would be staring at the behind of the character for basically the whole game. They figured that more gamers would prefer to have to view a female's 'behind' more than a males, so Lara was born! (BTW, this is absolute truth. If you don't believe me, try and find a fairly old issue of Sega Saturn Magazine with about an eight page spread about the game). Oh, plus the fact that she is now basically a gaming sex symbol, I dont think calling her a role model for female gamers is really that accurate. :D