Define evil...

[Doukeshi]

I don't know how well this thread is going to be recieved, though I believe in the "you don't know until you try" method of working.

How do you define evil? Evil has become a very generalised word such as using the word to describe a fairly nasty or cruel act that a human being does to another person or animal. Does this, however, truly define the meaning of evil. When do the actions of a person become so terrible as to be categorised as evil and can someone be truly evil?

I myself believe that there are no evil people, just evil actions. I don't believe Hitler was an evil person for instance, he had many good and socially benifical ideas. I just believe that many of his other actions could be considered wrong, defined by their cruelty and barbarous nature.

I don't even like using the word evil, to me it seems to be a term used in conjuncture with the pure separation of black and white, something only found in stories and movies. Therefore, is anything truly evil and can something be seen as evil in even the most forgicing of eyes?

[Dan L]

No-one is evil....

I tend to think more along the lines of everyone is evil- we just have good ideas and do good things from time to time. But regardless of whether someone does a minor sinful action on a regular basis or is more defined by brutal, intense acts of evil, we are all pretty evil at the core.

That doesn't mean there's no good in the world. And it doesn't mean that there's no hope. It just means that "evil" isn't something restricted only to the ones who commit the greater sins.

[Doukeshi]

Okay, so what would you define evil as. You say that we are evil at the core, but what does that mean exactly. We are imperfect yes and are mostly animal in our instincts and functions but what defines us as mostly evil?

[Dagger]

My guess is that it'll be received quite well. This thread could attract some pretty interesting replies, so I, for one, will make an effort to follow it.

Although I feel that the term "evil" is a bit overused nowadays, I believe that inherently evil people do exist--they're just far rarer than most of us seem to think. Some people enjoy inflicting pain on others. Some not only revel in others' suffering, but are also entirely devoid of guilt. How can one cure the lack of a conscience? Certain prisoners, no matter how pleasant their behavior becomes, will never truly be rehabilitated--but I don't see how anyone could possibly possess the foresight required to tell the difference.

I disagree with your assessment of Hitler. Just because someone's evil doesn't mean that all of his or her actions and ideas are thoroughly depraved. In my mind, a man may simultaneously be both evil and impeccably courteous. He may feel affection or even love, and still not experience the mental issues that normally result from hurting someone.

(For the record, I'm using male pronouns only because it gets a little tiring to say "he and she" all the time).

I just [i]cannot[/i] accept the idea that Kim Jong Il, a man who's starving his entire ******* country in order to support his lavish lifestyle and enormous ego, is not a horrible, evil person.

~Dagger~

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by doukeshi03 [/i]
[B]Okay, so what would you define evil as. You say that we are evil at the core, but what does that mean exactly. We are imperfect yes and are mostly animal in our instincts and functions but what defines us as mostly evil? [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly that- that we are imperfect.

Evil is, to put it bluntly, the complete lack of good.

I don't really believe that there are polar opposites of good and evil, but rather that good is like light, and evil like darkness. Darkness doesn't actually exist- only light does- darkness is simply lack of light.

Thus evil isn't really anything. It doesn't really accomplish anything- All it does in the long term is destroys.

All evil can ever do is to disappoint, to hurt, to destroy, etc. And this is the thing which every human does. We are pretty much characterised by things like "nobody's perfect", "everyone does some bad things". It's perfectly possible for us to maliciously do evil whenever we want to- but it's not possible for us to earnestly try and do good without doing something wrong every now and then.

Thus I'd say that our very core is evil- the core of a being is whatever it tends towards.

But there's a catch.

There was a guy who wasn't evil because he wasn't only man. His name was Jesus. You probably know how the story goes, about how he died for our sins, or evil.

Basically that means that the big empty lack of good that we've been burrowing all our life is filled up with good. Doesn't mean we don't still dig into it and do bad things from time to time- it just means we can learn from our mistakes without worrying about them, and although we will always be evil, we will get better at being good.

I doubt I need to say any more than that. It's besides the question in the thread, anyway.

[Corey]

[color=003333][size=1]Evil.
I absolutely hate this little word, outside of stories and fiction. In real life, there is no true good or evil. The world is not black an white. It's shades of grey.
There are on truely evil people. There are no truely good people. By many standards, I would would be classed as a good person. But I have several 'evil' qualities. I would do mostly anything to succeed. I would happily crush someones chances if I thought it would better my own. Some of these could be looked upon as simply ambitious. Or, in a slightly more poetic light, evil.

I'm sure that Hitler had some good qualities. I don't believe that he was a truely bad man. Yes he did several terrible things, but just look at the things that happen every day outside of your window. Murders, rapes, muggings, robberies, etc...

When do the actons of people become truely evil? I don't know. When I meet an evil person, I'll ask them.[/size][/color]

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][font=century][size=1]Ahh, [b]evil[/b]. One of the most interesting abstracts in the history of humanity. It has been debated long before we were here, and it will be debated long after we are here.

According to the Bible, [b]evil[/b] is giving into physical desires at the cost of your spiritual ones, or at the cost of harming yourself or others. According to this logic, gluttony is [b]evil[/b] because you are doing damage to your body for the sake of taste sensations, killing is [b]evil[/b] because you are harming someone else's body, etc.

If you are not religious, [b]evil[/b] is harder to define. However, I think the majority of us can agree that there are some acts so duisgusting and unforgivable as to be defined as [b]evil[/b]. For example, killing a young child is, in my eyes, a completely unforgivable act. I don't care what else you've done, if you've murder children, I don't believe there is hope for you, nor am I interested in finding hope for you. Again, this is just an example.

[b]Evil[/b] raises several questions. First, is humanity basically [b]evil[/b]? I do not think so. Humanity in its basic form isn't an angel, to be certain, but it isn't totally malicious. Niether is it totally benevolent; I believe humanity is basically ignorant, not good or [b]evil[/b]. The enviornment is a good example of this; people didn't care about it until they became aware that they were hurting it. Then, it became a priority to many (but admittedly not all) people. However, that's all tangenial.

THe next question is whether [b]evil[/b] acts may be committed in the name of good. War is the best example of this. I believe that no one will argue that it was necessary for the greater good of the world that the Allied Powers kick the Axis Powers' arse three ways from Sunday. And we are fortunate that they did.

I believe that one can say that allowing others to commit [b]evil[/b] acts (and the Nazis were [b]evil[/b], all right? Deal with it) without intervening is [b]evil[/b] within itself, especially if you possess the power to stop it.

Finally, are there [b]evil[/b] people, people who are just so inherantly bad as to be beyond rehabilitation or, in a biblical sense, beyond redemption? In my opion, there are. It's easy to label Hitler as an example of evil, but that's kind of a cop-out in this discussion.

A year or two ago, there was a man in Florida whose name I don't recall. He raped and murdered a three-year olf girl. You cannot tell me that this man wasn't [b]evil[/b]. If you ask me, he's got a reserved seat in Hell.

"But wait", you might argue. "That's an emotionally-charged argument!"

Agreed. however, good and [b]evil[/b] are moral concerns, and morals are heavily tied in with emotions. This isn't acedemic.

I'm not going to define [b]evil[/b], because everyone's exact definition is different. You will know something's [b]evil[/b] when you see it. If something is so depraved it makes you vomit, if a scene is so incredibly violent that you have to look away, if an action is so wrong you have to ask yourself how anyone could possibly do something like that...that's [b]evil[/b].

And that's all I really have to say about that.[/color][/font][/size]

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L [/i]
[B]No-one is evil.... [/B][/QUOTE]
Wrong. People are evil. Someone who can beat an infant senseless and then laugh is evil. Someone who kidnaps, rapes, and kills 13 year old girls is evil. People who roast their dog in the oven and laugh when he sees it whimpering are evil. Cut the relativity crap.

[James]

[color=#707875]I don't really like the word evil, for two reasons. Firstly, it tends to add some kind of spiritual weight to a classification of a person. And secondly, "evil" can be used to describe anything -- but it's too simplistic. Something isn't just "evil", as in, born completely evil. I don't think things work like that.

I think that if you're a person like, say, Saddam Hussein, then you are obviously a person with severe psychological problems. I'd certainly say that Saddam is a completely psychotic killer who I personally find revolting.

However, when you go around saying "this person is evil" or "that person is evil"...it's pointless. I think you have to examine the underlying motivations and reasoning behind "evil" in different circumstances. That doesn't mean that you're being an apologist -- because I'm certainly not an apologist for people who do bad things -- it just means that you're trying to understand why something happens, so that you can prevent it from happening again.

And I think that's pretty reasonable. If someone murders someone else, I can say "Oh, they're evil, throw them away". But that's foolish. As we know, in any situation, there are shades of grey. That person may have committed murder because they're a complete psychopath, or they may have done it in self defense. There are just too many situations and variations to use the one word to describe anyone who does something horribly wrong. *shrug*[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[quote]I don't believe Hitler was an evil person for instance; he had many good and socially beneficial ideas. I just believe that many of his other actions could be considered wrong, defined by their cruelty and barbarous nature.[/quote]He had some very deep problems and his outlet was Jews and non Germans, this stemmed from when he was living in the gutters and day after day all he saw were rich people and any one who knows about stereotypical Jews from that time will know there?s a reason behind that stereotype so he latched onto them as the rich ruling class making his life a misery and made it his personal goal to inflict pain on them. So really that was the German society and lack of mental heath system (or understanding of mental heath) that caused that problem.


Dan are you saying that Evil is in fact the normal state of being?
And if so (ignoring "original sin" as it has nothing to do with our day to day living only an implied badness) does that not mean that god is also evil and we can blame him for everything?

Really common, if you define a sin as evil you're going to have to fix up what a sin is. Hell if I say ****, masturbate, go over the speed limit or tell dad he sucks at cooking I'm an evil bastard; yet if I blow up prodestant in Ireland I'm set as long as I don't do the above "sins" since the pope and therefore god sanctions it.

[quote]His name was Jesus.[/quote]Jesus did sin. Read you're bible; having an excuse for sinning doesn't nullify the sin. (By you're above statement and according to my Sunday school teacher.)

[quote]All evil can ever do is to disappoint, to hurt, to destroy, etc.[/quote]I have one or two friends who love pain and harm immensely; and I don't see how enjoying inflicting hurt on them if they enjoy it makes that some how evil. Dan I'm sorry but it seems humanity is different for each different person and trying to classify it under the perfect (modern) Christian way of living just doesn't work. Or at least not in my opinion.

(I'm not saying you are wrong, just arguing some of your points I don't agree with. Anyway if you don't want to reply here I'd still like you know your answers in pm.)


To me evil is just that. It is defined by personal (thought out) opinions and morals but not beliefs as they are not yours.

[krippled master]

Ok, not reading the topic, only skimming, here is what i think about evil and my definition:

Evil is someone or something that pretty much bathes in sin and never regrets a moment. If someone is evil they go around hurting others and doing bad things out of pure passion. They do horrible things because they love it. At no point do they feel sorry for what they have done. That is an evil person.

I would have to say Hitler was pure evil. He is my best example.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]Wrong. People are evil. Someone who can beat an infant senseless and then laugh is evil. Someone who kidnaps, rapes, and kills 13 year old girls is evil. People who roast their dog in the oven and laugh when he sees it whimpering are evil. Cut the relativity crap. [/B][/QUOTE]

Did you even read the rest up that post?

Shut up.

The part you quoted ("no one is evil") was merely me stating the opinion of the person who started the thread, and then AFTER THAT, I stated my actual opinion. Which was quite different.


Cloricus:

No, I'm saying evil is the human state of being. I'm saying that Evil is the state induced by a lack of good, and thus evil is what we are at our most basic core.

That's not to say that God created something evil- it's to say that when you take away what God meant us to be (which is good) you are left with something which has no good- which is evil. And hey, what kind of messed up God would have meant us to be the way we are now anyway?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cloricus [/i]
[B]Jesus did sin. Having an excuse for sin doesn't nullify the sin[/B][/QUOTE]

OK.....

so what was his excuse, and what were his sins? (I don't mind your opinion, cloricus- I just want to know what it is based on ;))

[Zidargh]

[color=darkblue]There are some wrong statements about Adolf Hitler in this thread.

Yes Hitler did begin to resent the Jewish nation in his past but he wouldn't of done the things he did if everyone just accepted his means of gaining power.

The persecution of the Jews was only created because they were used as 'scape goats for Hitler to get out of situations that would be claimed morally wrong, I mean, he could've simply got the Gestapo to find every single Jew and kill them in public.

My opinion on evil is that all it describes is a person's perspective on another person, because it is such an opinionated and general description. There is no right or wrong behind the term 'evil', it's done out of natural decision. I'll edit this later.[/color]

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L[/i]
[B]so what was his excuse, and what were his sins? (I don't mind your opinion, cloricus- I just want to know what it is based on ;)) [/B][/QUOTE][size=1]Oo, I know one. He lost his temper in the temple, when he overturned all those tables and such. Sure, those people [i]morally[/i] should not have been selling things within a sacred place and all that, but these people probably did not have much for morals at the time. o_O You cannot condemn a person simply because they cannot tell what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to your own standards.

But, as the saying goes - quite fitting with the topic at hand, heh - "Evil begets evil."

Jesus lost his temper, and destroyed what was going on because of his own personal, moral opinions. A fine display of Wrath, one of the seven [i]deadly[/i] sins.

If I remember correctly, the only person in the Bible who never sinned was Mary, the mother of God.


The definition of "evil" is going to be different to relatively everyone, because it is such a subjective term. I mean, just look it up in a dictionary; you will get a bunch of vague definitions:

[b]1.[/b] Morally bad or wrong; wicked: [i]an evil tyrant.[/i]
[b]2.[/b] Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: [i]the evil effects of a poor diet.[/i]
[b]3.[/b] Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: [i]evil omens.[/i]
[b]4.[/b] Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: [i]an evil reputation.[/i]
[b]5.[/b] Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: [i]an evil temper.[/i]

It is so much of a vague term, it has five definitions (according to Dictionary.com).

To reiterate the whole "this person is evil," "that person is evil" concept, I believe it is rubbish. It would take [i]a lot[/i] for a person to be evil; "a lot" being an understatement. A vast majority of people others consider to be "evil" just commit "evil" acts, but are not necessarily "evil" people.[/size]

[Circ]

Various thing I found really interesting so far:

[QUOTE]That doesn't mean there's no good in the world. And it doesn't mean that there's no hope. [/QUOTE]

Actually I believe the world is hopeless, but that'S because I believe that everybody is profoundly stupid to some level.

[QUOTE]Agreed. however, good and evil are moral concerns, and morals are heavily tied in with emotions. This isn't academic. [/QUOTE]

Actually, morale is a philosophic notion, thus can be discussion "unemotionally", but most event considered "immoral" just happen to strike emotional cords as well. Don't confuse effect and cause.

[QUOTE]I think that if you're a person like, say, Saddam Hussein, then you are obviously a person with severe psychological problems. I'd certainly say that Saddam is a completely psychotic killer who I personally find revolting.[/QUOTE]

That's an excellent. I'd say 90% of the people that are labelled as "evil" can certainly not be considered good, but usually can't be labelled with "evil" when looked at objectively.

I don't think Hitler was "evil" he was a megalomaniacal fanatic and a paranoid, but when you go deep enough, you find a quite noble effort: the improvement of the human race. NOW, I definitely think is approach to the problem and his mean to achieve is goal where utterly inappropriate and immoral, and as actions, could be labelled as "evil". But I probably wouldn't label him as "evil". Some of his henchmen were actually probably more "evil" than he was.


[QUOTE]I have one or two friends who love pain and harm immensely; and I don't see how enjoying inflicting hurt on them if they enjoy it makes that some how evil. [/QUOTE]

You are misinterpreting him. "ALL evil can do is...". If your friends actually find pleasure in being inflicted pain upon, then the "torturer" is certainly not evil. Now if he keepes going when your friends yell for him to stop...

[QUOTE]You cannot condemn a person simply because they cannot tell what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to your own standards.[/QUOTE]

Again, good point. Moral temds to be subjective. But then some acts, like senseless murder, are universaly considered immoral.

I also like very much the definition of evil as "lack of good", though I think it becomes a bit restrictive. I don't see where a psychotic killer and torturer who is still a loving father and husband fits this definition...

[Justin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][size=1]Oo, I know one. He lost his temper in the temple, when he overturned all those tables and such. Sure, those people [i]morally[/i] should not have been selling things within a sacred place and all that, but these people probably did not have much for morals at the time. o_O You cannot condemn a person simply because they cannot tell what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to your own standards.
[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

One thing, and unfortunately the place where a Christian's belief can ever line up witha non-CHristian's--God's wrath is perfect. God gets angry, because He has a right. He has a right to do much worse. After all, what do we, as humans, do with a product that fails to do what we want it to? Destroy it.

God has wrath--but His momentary wrath is necessary, otherwise, what would His love mean to anyone?

Now, because God has wrath and because God is perfect, God's wrath is also perfect. And since Jesus IS God, Jesus's wrath is/was perfect.

If you're going to debate with people who know Jesus about Jesus, you're not going to win. This is, of course, not only directed at your, Piro.

Now, as for evil: It is nothing. It does not exist--except where good does not. Evil is merely the lack of good, just as cold is the lack of heat.

-Justin

[Guest lavalamp]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]Wrong. People are evil. Someone who can beat an infant senseless and then laugh is evil. Someone who kidnaps, rapes, and kills 13 year old girls is evil. People who roast their dog in the oven and laugh when he sees it whimpering are evil. Cut the relativity crap. [/B][/QUOTE]

Encore; encore.

People try to be too deep and intellectual about these subjects and it becomes embarrassing to read.

What is "evil?" Evil... Evil is "what?"

Honestly, cut the dramatic ********.

[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evil[/url]

[krippled master]

I agree with justin, but let me ask you something justin...what is your definition of an evil person?

[Justin]

Well, if evil is nothing but the lack of good, if we're going to define evil, we must first define good. Now, according to the Word of God, God is good, yes? Of course.

So, if evil is nothing but the lack of good, and God is good, then evil is nothing but the lack of God.

Therefore, the only thing that keeps me from being an evil person is God. If not for His love and grace(which I did not, do not, and will never deserve), I'd be evil.

-Justin

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L [/i]
[B]Did you even read the rest up that post?

Shut up.

The part you quoted ("no one is evil") was merely me stating the opinion of the person who started the thread, and then AFTER THAT, I stated my actual opinion. Which was quite different.

[/B][/QUOTE]
It was the basis of your point and thus your whole point is wrong. Nice try, but you can't justify everything you do :rolleyes:

[Corey]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lava lamp [/i]
[B]People try to be too deep and intellectual about these subjects and it becomes embarrassing to read.

What is "evil?" Evil... Evil is "what?"

Honestly, cut the dramatic ********.

[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evil[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=003333][size=1]The entire point of a disscusion based web community is discussion. If you don't like people's dramatic ********, then I suggest you stick your face in dictionary.com and live life according to definitions. Who cares about opinions and ideals when you've got a perfectly reliable web page to tell you exactly what everything is. There's no dramatic ******** in the dictionary, except of course:

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dramatic]Dramatic[/url]
[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bulshit]********[/url][/size][/color]

[Mitch]

[size=1] Evil is a perception. Everything is a perception. Evil is just another one of these perceptions.

The person who is evil could himself not think himself evil but good. The person who is not evil could not himself good but evil

A murderer could be doing what he does and think he is good. Another might say he is evil.

God may say it is wrong to sin on a set amountage of laws. Another might say he is evil and there is no sin.

Evil is a perception.

Everything is about perception

And evil is just a word when you get down to it. A word with a meaning. That's what it is if you want a clear-cut meaning. And as Piro has said already, that is what the dictionary says it is.

But what's bad is good and what's fair is foul. Remember that. Remember that as you may see something as good, another may see it as bad, and that person is just as right as you are--for he has his own perception. Remember that someone who may be seen as evil and tyranical--such as Hitler--may just be an extremist with a certain perception as to how things should be.

Hitler was a bad man they say. I wouldn't always believe what you think. Yes, he did kill many jews via the holocaust. But what were his views? Purification.

What of us and enslaving blacks here in the US? What of our mistreatment of them: we saw them as inferior. How did Hitler see the Jews? As inferior. He only set out to do what he did in a much more drastic way.

Not to mention, I recall that we read a court case in History class recently It is a court case called [i]Buck v. Bell[/i]. I will post the synospis of it as found [url=http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/56/print]here[/url]
[/size]

[quote][b]Title:
Buck v. Bell

[b]US Citation:[/b]
274 U.S. 200 (1927)
Docket:
292

[b]Events:[/b]
Argued - April 22, 1927
Decided - May 2, 1927

[b]Facts:[/b]
Carrie Buck was a feeble minded woman who was committed to a state mental institution. Her condition had been present in her family for the last three generations. A Virginia law allowed for the sexual sterilization of inmates of institutions to promote the "health of the patient and the welfare of society." Before the procedure could be performed, however, a hearing was required to determine whether or not the operation was a wise thing to do.

[b]Question Presented:[/b]
Did the Virginia statute which authorized sterilization deny Buck the right to due process of the law and the equal protection of the laws as protected by the Fourteenth Amendment?

[b]Conclusion:[/b]
The Court found that the statute did not violate the Constitution. Justice Holmes made clear that Buck's challenge was not upon the medical procedure involved but on the process of the substantive law. Since sterilization could not occur until a proper hearing had occurred (at which the patient and a guardian could be present) and after the Circuit Court of the County and the Supreme Court of Appeals had reviewed the case, if so requested by the patient. Only after "months of observation" could the operation take place. That was enough to satisfy the Court that there was no Constitutional violation. Citing the best interests of the state, Justice Holmes affirmed the value of a law like Virginia's in order to prevent the nation from "being swamped with incompetence . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

[b]Justices:[/b]
Oliver W. Holmes, Jr.
Willis Van Devanter
James C. McReynolds
Louis D. Brandeis
William Howard Taft
George Sutherland
Pierce Butler
Edward T. Sanford
Harlan Fiske Stone[/quote]

[size=1] So here we see that they were trying to destroy the feeblemindeds' abilities to reproduce. We were trying to [i]purify[/i] society--try to get rid of the imbiciles.

And how is this much unlike what Hitler did on some level, only that Hitler was more radical?

This case was actually one the Nazis brought up in their court case.

So, in fact, we're just as bad as Hitler to some level, aren't we? We killed blacks, enslaved them, tried to make it so imbiciles couldn't give birth. Hitler was just more radical. He enforced what he did in a much harsher way.

So what is evil? It's for you to decide; it's for you to perceive.[/size]

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][font=century][size=1]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] Evil is a perception. Everything is a perception. Evil is just another one of these perceptions.[/B][/QUOTE]

No offense, but that's a bunch of crap. I'm sorry, but some things are [b]evil[/b], and I don't care who you are or what your perceptions are.


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] The person who is evil could himself not think himself evil but good. The person who is not evil could not himself good but evil

A murderer could be doing what he does and think he is good. Another might say he is evil.

God may say it is wrong to sin on a set amountage of laws. Another might say he is evil and there is no sin.

Evil is a perception.

Everything is about perception[/B][/QUOTE]

So, when asked the question, "What is [b]evil[/b]?", the answer is "Whatever you think it is"? That's a cop out.

I might be open to debate on the exact meaning or nature of [b]evil[/b], but to say it doesn't exist screams of ignorance. some actions are evil no matter who you are or how you percieve them.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] But what's bad is good and what's fair is foul. Remember that. Remember that as you may see something as good, another may see it as bad, and that person is just as right as you are--for he has his own perception. Remember that someone who may be seen as evil and tyranical--such as Hitler--may just be an extremist with a certain perception as to how things should be.[/B][/QUOTE]

I know how things should be. Everyone does; we all have our own view of how the world should work. What made Hitler [b]evil[/b] was that he foisted his view upon others at the cost of millions of lives.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] Hitler was a bad man they say. I wouldn't always believe what you think. Yes, he did kill many jews via the holocaust. But what were his views? Purification. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sweet Lord....I'm not even Jewish, and I think that's an offense crock. Ask the Holocost surviours about Hitler. Explain to them that you don't believe what they think. Tell them that hItler is only [b]evil[/b] from one point of view, and that if you look at it another way, he's just misunderstood.

If you're defending Hitler, your argument justdied. You're done, hitt he showers, better luck next time.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] What of us and enslaving blacks here in the US? What of our mistreatment of them: we saw them as inferior. How did Hitler see the Jews? As inferior. He only set out to do what he did in a much more drastic way.[/B][/QUOTE]

What is this '"we" you keep talking about? I certainly don't recall owning other human beings. Everyone who had was dead by the time my parents were born. Maybe you want to take on the evils committed by long-dead people, but I certainly don't see why I do, or why I should be associated with them.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] So here we see that they were trying to destroy the feeblemindeds' abilities to reproduce. We were trying to [i]purify[/i] society--try to get rid of the imbiciles.

And how is this much unlike what Hitler did on some level, only that Hitler was more radical?

This case was actually one the Nazis brought up in their court case.

So, in fact, we're just as bad as Hitler to some level, aren't we? We killed blacks, enslaved them, tried to make it so imbiciles couldn't give birth. Hitler was just more radical. He enforced what he did in a much harsher way.[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing at all that that was wrong. However, you keep saying 'we'; maybe you were involved, but I sure as Hell wasn't. I never killed or enslaved anyone, and am disgusted by those who did.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B] So what is evil? It's for you to decide; it's for you to perceive.[/B][/QUOTE]

Heres' a wake-up call: humanity decided a long time ago that some acts were simply [b]evil[/b]. Enslaving othersis an [b]evil[/b] act. Killing others based solely on their heritage is an [b]evil[/b] act. You can argue percepytions all you want, but those of us in the real world are aware that [b]evil[/b] exists. [/color][/font][/size]

[Doukeshi]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathBug [/i]
[B][font=century][size=1]


I'm sorry, but some things are [b]evil[/b], and I don't care who you are or what your perceptions are.[/size][/font][/quote]

oh really? Then doesn't that completely null the point of a debate or in fact, a conversation?

[quote][size=1][font=century]So, when asked the question, "What is [b]evil[/b]?", the answer is "Whatever you think it is"? That's a cop out.[/quote][/size][/font]

No it isn't a cop out because everything is based on perception. Just because society deems something as evil does not define it in concrete. A different society maybe deem that as acceptable. For instance in some cultures it is considered a damnable sin to chew your fingernails or suck a cut because it is considered cannibalism and therefore 'evil'. No matter how severe you think the action whether it is evil or not is always based on perception.

[quote][size=1][font=century]I might be open to debate on the exact meaning or nature of [b]evil[/b], but to say it doesn't exist screams of ignorance. some actions are evil no matter who you are or how you percieve them.[/quote][/size][/font]

I reiterate my previous argument and add that to rule out all others opinions in favour of your own stubbord defenition is [i]ignorance[/i].

[quote][size=1][font=century]Ask the Holocost surviours about Hitler. Explain to them that you don't believe what they think. Tell them that hItler is only [b]evil[/b] from one point of view, and that if you look at it another way, he's just misunderstood.

If you're defending Hitler, your argument just died. You're done, hit the showers, better luck next time.[/quote][/size][/font]

I can explain to holocaust survivors that Hitler was not evil, and i would if I knew any. If you look at the facts then Hitler was not evil. Nor was he misunderstood. The actions he sanctioned were horrendous it's true, however, you do have to look at the reasons behind these actions and other actions in comparison to that. You say that saying something is evil by perception is a cop out? Well saying something is evil just as a dismissal is just as big a cop out I'm afraid.

Here's a wake up call for [i]you[/i]. Evil doesn't exist in the way that you think. You say killing someone is evil. Okay, are the mentally disturbed, did they have a reason? Until you get inside someones head you can't define them as simply 'evil'. You can call a person bad, you can call an action wrong, disturbing, horrifying...but evil...thats only something you find in story books along side the 'evil' queen in snow white and the emperor in star wars.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][size=1]Oo, I know one. He lost his temper in the temple, when he overturned all those tables and such. Sure, those people [i]morally[/i] should not have been selling things within a sacred place and all that, but these people probably did not have much for morals at the time. o_O You cannot condemn a person simply because they cannot tell what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to your own standards..[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

It always amuses me how much of that story is lost in culture, simply because we have no idea what the context of the selling is all about.

Basically, the animals these guys were selling in the temple, were to be used for sacrifices.

The guys were selling these in the outer courts of temple, ie. when people were on their way to worship God, and to bring a sacrifice.

The thing is, rather than bring a sacrifice, they'd just bring some money and buy one on location.

This completely goes against the whole idea- the idea behind sacrificing something is that it is, well, a sacrifice. Something of your own that you give up- completely different to the idea that you can just buy something to appease God while on your way to worship.

It in fact, had very little to do with the mere fact that people were selling things in the middle of the temple- but more to do with the thought that people can buy themselves a spot on God's good side.

Hence he turned the tables over. And you know, I don't know of a single verse in the bible which forbids someone from turning a table over and driving a bunch of religious hypocrites out of the temple courts.

And as for "You cannot condemn a person simply because they cannot tell what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to your own standards".. we're talking about a story from the Bible here- so that doesn't really carry much weight, because the Bible specifically says that there [i]is[/i] a definite "right" and "wrong". If you're going to prove that Jesus sinned in some way, in the Bible, you can at least prove it by giving me an example of Jesus sinning in a way which the Bible describes as "sin", not just yourself.

That, and Jesus wasn't condemning these people- he was getting rid of the sinful things which they had set up, not condemning the persons themselves.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][size=1]Jesus lost his temper, and destroyed what was going on because of his own personal, moral opinions. A fine display of Wrath, one of the seven [i]deadly[/i] sins.

If I remember correctly, the only person in the Bible who never sinned was Mary, the mother of God.[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

The seven deadly sins? Mary was sinless? Sounds like more of a catholic thing than a biblical thing. Besides, what about Paul in Acts 13:

"[i]8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10"You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."
12Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.[/i]"

A much finer example of wrath if I do say so myself, only in this case it is said that Paul was "filled with the Holy Spirit"- ie. God actually prompted to say such a thing, in order that the sorcerer might be blinded.

I don't believe in the seven deadly sins crap- nor do I believe that Mary was sinless. The argument for the latter is that Mary had to be sinless to concieve a sinless child. But then why was Mary's mother not sinless, or her grandmother? Surely unless her whole female family lineage was sinless, no-one would have been able to concieve anything sinless.

I don't have (that) much of a problem with areas of catholic tradition- but they are [i]not[/i] part of the bible. Believe it if they want- and they still can be true Christians even if they do- but it is not definite truth.

Having said all that bad stuff, the Catholic church does have it's good points. And my particular belief in Christianity has it's both good and bad points too. The point is not to argue between what is right and wrong, but what is necessary, and what is just speculation.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]It was the basis of your point and thus your whole point is wrong. Nice try, but you can't justify everything you do :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

How is "No-one is evil", the basis of a point which concludes that we are all evil, we just do good things every so often?

That's not even relativity. Relativity says there is no evil at all. I say there is an absolute abundance of evil and the world is screwed. Relative to nothing, from a normal point of view. I happen to believe that there is hope anyway, purely because we have a good god. But the point is that the world, if viewed as a godless entity, is pure evil.

Harry, you can't act like an *** all the time and expect that people think it's a good point.