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Mass. Court Clears Way for Gay Marriages


Semjaza
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I'd have to disagree with some of the statements about the

church ordeal and the marrage thing here. I'm not to admit that

I'm gay for a first thing and I see this as nothing new to me. Also

I would have to agree with gay marrages on account that a man

does have a choice weather to marry someone of the same or

opposite sex. Some of you dont believe in the same sex getting

married and that is their own oppinion, they shouldn't be argued

over with because they have made their choice. I'd rather

respect someone who is honest about their thoughts and fellings

about that matter. Oh yeah i forgot, you have to understand

that some gay people have to live in a world full or homofobes.

so its rare that you see a nice gay couple walking down a street

or holding hands, they have to hide it 'cause of some shame they

feel from being critciezed (sp).

Now on the other hand...I cant beleive the state of floriday wont let a gay man/couple adopt a child like Transtic Nerve said...thats soo wrong.
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[color=royalblue]Soo wrong? Since when was it wrong for a government to stand up for what it believed in? If the state of Florida will not allow for gay marriages, then maybe gays should move to Massachusetts.

Either way, marriage is a religious thing, therefore not to be confused with "domestic partners."[/color]
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]No we can't. We have certain rights as straight people, as voting and whatnot, but thats not the argument here. We can't legally marry, therefor we do not have the same rights as you. Filling out a few forms does not give us the same rights as you. In the state of Florida, I as a gay man, cannot adopt a child. Can you believe this BS. Becuase of my sexual orientation, I cannot adopt a child if i felt the need to. THE FREEDOMS ARE UNBEARABLE! [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]No, you can?t currently legally marry. However, by filling out visitation forms and such you can obtain almost all of the rights/privileges of married people.

As for homosexuals adopting children, I?m not entirely sure what I think should be done regarding it. I?m very much torn on this issue. I?ll get back to you on this one.

As for you last sentence? I?m not sure what to think.[/color]
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Guest Crimson Spider
You know, TN always called me angry and arrogant and stuff...

[b][u]Please read the whole thing before you say something on it[/b][/u]

It is actually quite amazing how a person can convince themselves of almost anything. Take this example


During a study of psychic powers (specifically psychic healing),as to prove that the mind can convince itself along with the body of almost anything, a man hypnotized a willing participant. He told them that he was going to burn them with a red-hot iron. He then touched the cool iron to the persons skin. Their skin began to burn and blister as if the Iron in actuality was so hot as to inflict damage upon ones own self.

A person burning themselves because they think they are getting burned is 100% possible. So it is 100% possible for a person to actually assume and convince themselves of being something of such simplicity of having an attraction to the same sex as it is to have an attraction to trees, rocks, or bananas.

If someone could convince themselves of that at an early age, or middle age, which is VERY possible, then they would actually PREFER sex from the same gender over the other, because that is not only what one thinks, but what one also believes and is self-taught to believe, as well as encouragement they hear/receive, as well as opposition For the same brain that actually controls your functions, beliefs, and preference also controls your pleasure. For once your convinced, your brain will actually take control... of everything. From which you like guys or girls, or if being bit by a lizard hurts more than_by a bird.

The sex drive isn't all exclusive to the brain. The 2 magic chemicals: Testosterone and Estrogen. These are produced in the organs in our body that coincide with our gender. They have an attraction to each other, which is the natural attraction in nature to like the opposite gender. These 2 magic chemicals is what regulates our drives for sex, as well as our bodily development at birth, and at puberty. Viagra, for instance, just induces testosterone into a guy, causing the brain to pump more blood into the male sex organ, causing him to have an erection. You see, a woman actually emits pheromones when she is in a sexual mood, and/or Occulating. And our testosterone driven guy brains pick that up, and causes our testes to produce testosterone. Guys do the same, except this particular pheromone is quite different. It is formatted to pick up girls, and not guys. These pheromones aren?t different for each person. They are the same, because it is what your brain picks up and recognizes. So if you like the pheromones emitted by the same gender, then you must have fallen deeply in love with yourself by now.
Your probably assuming right now that it's like were moths who would pick this up a mile away and be mindlessly drawn to it. That is not true. It is pretty darn mild. We cannot just say: "She's emitting pheromones right now. Let's go and hump her like a dog." But we DO pick them up. Does this mean we are going to get a stiffy right that second we pick it up? Nope. Since they are very mild, there's a good chance we just plain ain't in the mood, or not thinking about it, or doesn't produce testosterone quite enough, or not quite the horny guy that all our teenage friends are. The list applies here, too. If one smells Ramen, one gets an urge to eat, no? If one smells chemical pheromones designated to stimulate our sexual being, we get stimulated, no? Although in a whole lot of cases, so much their quite the majority, yes, humans have ourselves the magic ability to go against our instincts. If an animal tastes something it doesn't like, it doesn't eat it. But yet, picky eaters can down half a salad with little to no dressing because they force themselves too. And guess what? If they are brought up to eat salads, they will actually begin to LIKE salads. If you go to an african chief, and give him a sugar-packed chocolate bar, he's not gonna like it. He's gonna like the soup and fruits and animals he eats better than that. BEEN PROVEN! Adventurers to Africa, as well as other places with tribes described this happening. Can't remember which book I read it out of, AND which TV shows on the Discovery channel I saw it on. But then again, I'm sure you don't remember who was the first person who told you the sun was a star, do you? If you manage to, I bet not too many here would know.

Not to mention that both these chemicals that regulate the structures of our brain are mass produced. You see, we as guys have both estrogen and testosterone in our brains and body. [b][u]Testosterone is MASS produced in the male body, and Estrogen is MASS produced in the female body.[/b][/u] Not the other way around. We have both chemicals. But out attractions for the other sex are mass produced, and not for the same sex.

Our bodies use up the chemicals that we produce (usually used up and emitted through urination). Now, while giving testosterone cream to a woman would make her sexually aroused, it would also actually make her more competitive, and many for however long she actually has that excess. That is because these chemicals do not do completely identical things. Testosterone is actually the main player in sexual activities, while estrogen actually only helps to regulate what the body does during intercourse. I?m sure you remember sex-ed, right? If you don?t, pick up a high school and up book on the human body. Estrogen regulates a woman's reproductive glands, as well as her monthly. For if these chemicals weren?t mass-produced in the body, we would become impotent and wouldn?t be able to re-produce.

There is an actual co-dominant gene that determines if you are black or not, or recessive genes like if you have blonde hair, or green or blue eyes, or an aggressive attitude. But in actuality, I can tell you the strengths and weaknesses the races I?ve had enough encounters with have. But let me know when they find a gene for this, OK? Not just someone saying they MIGHT find a gene, which was brought up more than once at my other board. Or find me an explanation, like some misaligned chromosome, such as with down syndrome. [u][b]Or some abnormality that would cause ALL, not most, but ALL of the natural chemicals and structures that are in ones brain and programmed FROM SOLID UNALTERED CHEMICALS the completely revert into liking only the same sex![/b][/u] So basically tell me when acid will not cause baking soda to fizz up with both the base chemicals unaltered and not overpowered. Take into consideration. It isn't inherited. Family lines can go on and no gays, then suddenly there is one from seemingly nowhere. So it cannot be inherited, or it is a mega-recessive undiscovered gene that unless all the other genes are in the exact same place, does not take into effect.

That is the natural attraction. Instincts. It has to be physical, because going by what I listed above, your psyche isn't all on it's own! It is altered, nurtured, and effected by every single thing around you, and how what little you were physically given determines PART of how you interpret it, and PART of how you apply it. So ones brain has to be physically to an almost exact prision, because psychological would just prove my point. If one is raised in an environment completely isolated from one thing, and has no knowledge of it, it won't occur! At least not for a very long time. It takes one perso to actually think of this, and it wouldn?t happen as long as that one person doesn?t show up, and isn?t in the circumstances of which would cause him to begin to assume that he would like the opposite gender. And if one is raised up TO be gay, then they WILL be. But lets say that there is a guy, but instead of being like your average Joe, he?s thoughtful, considerate, likes many of girls things, and isn?t quite as strong or idiotically bound as his fellow tweens as he is growing up (cough ME ME ME ME ME ME MMMMMMMEEEEEE). Once you have some knowledge on the subject, and actually consider it, your subconscious decides whether you go with it or not. Yes, you do have a subconscious. Just not one that picks up backward messages in songs and such (example: Family guy. The dog goes to see the psychiatrist because he keeps ?relieving? himself on the floor. When the psychiatrist asks him about his friends wife, he complements her. Then when the psychiatrist asks if the dog fell in love with him, the dog denied it. Then the psychiatrist said: ?Who are you trying to convince? You or me?? Not the best example, but it?s the only one I can think of right now). Now, this subconscious doesn?t predetermine everything and anything you will ever do and encounter in your life. Like that one kid who liked salad after time. His subconscious, and his taste spuds said he didn?t like it, but he forced himself to. Now he believes he does. I?ll bring this up a little later.

Going on, I had all the little traits that your average little going-to-be gay boy had. EVERYTHING. But it?s a little weird that I'm as strait as this ?l?. Because I have myself a choice on the matter. And I?m going to wait for someone to say that gays don?t so I can debate it. (can?t think of everything at once here, O.K.?) But I?ll start with: why not?

Here is another slightly disturbing story: An accident by the doctors burned off this babies penis. So what they did (do not ask me why) was put a Vagina in the baby boy, and tried to raise it to be a girl. The part wasn?t capable of reproducing, of course. But this little ?IT? refused to like anything of girls. It preferred pants over dresses. Trucks over dollies. Basketball over dancing. It went crazy and was tried to commit suicide multiple times. Finally, they told her that she was supposed to be a he.

Why? [u][b]Testosterone and estrogen not only take place in sexual intercourse, and puberty, but also the formation of the fetus into a baby as well.[/u][/b] So a guy with more estrogen can be more feminine, and more PRONE to becoming gay, it is still a guy because that little spermie's Y chromosome willed it so. And you cannot say the Y-chromosome is deformed, because on the chromosomal sheet used to identify certain syndromes, such as down syndrome, there is NO abnormality in the Y-chromosome. It's either there, or an X chromosome, meaning a girl. There is a syndrome of which both the X and the Y are carried in the sperm, but that forms a bi-gender human. Point is that they will still have an attraction to girls. It is programmed mentally, and physically. But I?ve seen people go against their natural programming on more than just this. Ever met someone antisocial?

When we are mere fetuses in our mother?s wombs, the magic chromosome helps to play a part as to which gender we will become. This chromosome is very simple, and doesn?t carry the information needed to actually determine the attraction of which the person decides on and prefers. It only decides on whether the fetus develops as a boy or a girl. The rest goes on from there.

A few questions here: Why eat the salad? You don't need to eat it now! It tastes bad, and you could go your entire life without it! Who cares what the other people around you do? Their not eating it. Why pressure yourself at school to eat it, too? No one around you forces you to. Some people aren't even eating lunch. Why not just eat what you like, then dump it.
Why do you sit at home and listen to radio. Why do you NOT care what others think? Don't you want to be the alpha-male? The strongest? The smartest? Don't you want to lead around a pack of eagerly learning? Why do you listen to radio and NOT WORK OUT AT ALL? You know it isn't healthy, just like what you are eating on a regular basis. You know your gonna get weak and feeble from it.
Why do you push yourself to be good at something, even though you really aren't? Why deviate from your Videogame and study for hours to ace a test that collages aren't even gonna look at? It's not fun! It's not even that important to your grade. You could not study, and get a C on it, and your grade will stay the same. Why stride to be good? All you want to do is what you enjoy? Why stride to be better once you reach your limit? Why do you push yourself to not slow down for that last 20 yards of the 100 yard dash, even though you know you wont win? The guy ahead of you is already won! Why push that time limit. No one looks at second place. Why not punch the guy in the face who ticks you off when no one is around?

All of those things I mentioned above go against our natures in some way. Not saying that all apply to everyone, but I?m sure everyone wanted to just plain sock that idiot in school and didn?t.

Plus the many other smaller things, such as going into an elevator alone with someone who seriously creeps you out and wants to kick the crap out of you and obviously hates you even though they don't admit it, and going into that elevator anyway to not be rude. Even if nothing happens, your instincts and nature are telling you not to do it.

Bhuddists were once protesting. Saw it on news. To do it, they LIT THEMSELVES ON FIRE AND DID NOT BURN NOR BLISTER! Unless they are hypnotized all their lives and beliefs, which we are. Mind over matter

An Eskimo man once stayed in freezing cold water for HOURS AND HOURS while his soaking wet friend traveled on ice in a windy day in alaska to the nearest village, which was miles, and back to rescue his friend. Wanna know how that man in the water lived? He constantly told himself that the water was not cold! He wouldn't let himself admit it, and that's the ONLY thing that kept him alive! Mind over matter. Wanna know how his friend who went for rescue lived? He strained and pushed himself BEYOND NORMAL HUMAN LIMITS to help is friend. Mind over matter.

A child in a cattle car headed away from Auschwitz in WW II packed with over 100 people for about a week with little food and water. He was beaten twice before, mind you and only feed watery soup, stale bread, and water. This 12 year old child. And when the car arrived to the other concentration camp, he was 1 of 3 to survive! The other 2 adults. Wanna know why? Because he forced himself to endure the hunger, thirst, lice, aches and pains because he knew that there was hope for his survival and rescue. He refused to lay down and close his eyes for 4 days! The first time he did, someone SAT on him without choice because the car was so packed! You cannot tell me that is not mind over matter, because no one can explain how he lived.

In fact: Take everyone who survived Aushwitz, the most brutal camp in WW II, and tell me that wasn't mind over matter.

Take the men who dropped the twin towers from the skyline of NY city. Their instincts had told them to turn around, and not kill themselves. Those who knew, anyway. But they were raised to go against that. Mind over mind.

Another point: [b][u]You are never born always knowing that you are gay. You make an assumption from mild, uneducated observations and go from there. [/b][/u]As time goes on, paradigme syndrome only allows you to see facts supporting your assumption, and not against it. Everything against what you believe will be dismissed as lies, or not true, or you would try to find some way around it. (waits for someone to accuse me of doing that right now.)

I also have heard, seen, and know people who have gone from gay to strait by their own choice. People assume they are gay, then they can easily see that they were wrong.

Let me ask you something, TN (I know you are reading this). If Carmen Electra walked up to you and asked to have sex with you, would you deny it? The half-dozen ?flaming? guys in college applying for massage classes, and styling classes would. When my sister?s friend had asked each one of them individually if they would have sex with her, they all happily excepted.

You cannot base your entire opinion on one or two cases. The simple fact is that there are women who aren?t in good as bed as others, and the same with men. Not everyone is as sexually appetizing as others, even of different genders.


I love my sister. I love my mother. I love my brother. I love my best friend. I, however, do not want to have sex with them. There are many levels of which one can call ?Love?. This is only a few. They are different, yes. But not too much.

The sexual attraction for whom you want to be with is actually quite based on choice. You can VERY easily chose who you love, or fall in love with. Love at first sight doesn?t exist. Lust and Infatuation exist at first sight. Love is a gradual bond that develops over time. Also from the sources I?ve gathered (more than one), it isn?t about love. It?s about sexual pleasure.

And the natural attraction for the opposite gender is still there. Ever heard of NAMBLA? North American Men-Boys Lovers Association? The guys who are causing a crap load of trouble? The guys who made it so you can?t adopt children? I myself have yet to see a gay couple where not at least one of the men is this feminine womanly person. I?m sure there?s an exception, but the few or the one do not speak for the many.

Equality in humans is a very fickle thing to touch on. You see, although humans should be viewed as equals until proven otherwise, that ?otherwise? can come VERY quickly. Take this into example: would you treat this person

[img]http://junglist.org/images/assorted/1999/mike-ghetto-elevator.jpg[/img]
equally with this person?

[img]http://olsonboys.com/james/JamesPreppy.jpg[/img]

I certainly think not. Their cloths alone, along with other subtle things such as their facial marks, and the way they hold their body distinguishes one from the other very quickly. But here?s the main question: Do they deserve to be treated the same?

For rhetorical sake, lets say that the bottom one is a major jerk who is on drugs and is always goofing off in school while the top one is a nice kind loving boy with a steady girlfriend and just happened to be place in the wrong place in life. Now, do they deserve to be treated equally? Nope. Point is, you should give everyone a fair first chance.

Discriminating against actions can go as far as being a biggot towards murderers. For the choices and trends that you have determine exactly what rights you have. If you were to murder people, and then complain about not having equal rights, then many upon many feel that you do not have the right to speak.

I?ll leave you guys talking about animals. Since animals do not have higher thinking, everything I said biologically applies. My personal belief is that things such as domestication, human influence, and occasion other small, nearly insignificant factors rule out whether they want to mate or not, and who they want to mate with.

I owned a parrot for a small amount of time. We got rid of it because it went into heat. This particular animal HAD to mate, because it would otherwise go crazy and die. It tried to mate with many things. If another female parrot were to show up, I have no doubt it would try to mate with it too.

It has yet to be scientifically proven that gayness isn?t a choice yet. They are working on experiments with rats, BTW. Still no results. Since it CAN be choice, whether or not you chose to wed them is choice. Whether or not you chose to get married is choice. Murdering someone is a choice. Chewing gum is a choice. Putting that gum under your desk in school is a choice. Reading this post is a choice.

For in order for gayness to be natural, [b][u]Both the body and the human psyche of that particular person must both be deformed along with each other, or otherwise the person will remain strait.[/b][/u] Psychologically, very easy. Physically... no. There are WAY too many things that would have to be in sync with each other for a person to be gay. For if there was a psychological reason, the things I?ve mentioned would still make it choice.

My input is this: Legalize gay marriages if you drop the whole pledge thing, the whole ?In god we trust? thing, every single issue that the very same reasons why you can?t wed that is causing problems for us, then go ahead and marry.


[size=1]dang that was long[/size]
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[quote]If someone could convince themselves of that at an early age, or middle age, which is VERY possible, then they would actually PREFER sex from the same gender over the other, because that is not only what one thinks, but what one also believes and is self-taught to believe, as well as encouragement they hear/receive, as well as opposition.[/quote]

Why, pray tell, would any sane person choose to do this? Why willingly invite discrimination, bigotry and hatred into his life? Who would encourage him to "become" gay? Until you can confidently cite a whole array of genuine, unbiased scientific studies, I won't be able to take your theory seriously. In my opinion, it's rather ludicrous.

[quote]So if you like the pheromones emitted by the same gender, then you must have fallen deeply in love with yourself by now.[/quote]

Maybe this sentence was meant to be funny; I honestly can't tell. Either way, it does nothing to explain your point, and only ends up sounding rather silly. As I need to get some sleep, I don't plan on dignifying the rest of your post with a lengthy response. I'm sure that others will be happy to do that in my place.

Quality over quantity, darling. A few words to live by.

~Dagger~
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Guest Crimson Spider
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dagger IX1 [/i]
Why, pray tell, would any sane person choose to do this? Why willingly invite discrimination, bigotry and hatred into his life? Who would encourage him to "become" gay? Until you can confidently cite a whole array of genuine, unbiased scientific studies, I won't be able to take your theory seriously. In my opinion, it's rather ludicrous.[/quote]Why, rather easily actually. For the same reasons why a person would convince themselves that they wouldn't be able to do something so small and insignificant as draw good, or play basketball well, or play volleyball well, or be smart enough to pass school, or why the glass is half empty, or why many women go back to their abusive husbands when given the chance to go away. Same reason.



[quote]Maybe this sentence was meant to be funny; I honestly can't tell. Either way, it does nothing to explain your point, and only ends up sounding rather silly. As I need to get some sleep, I don't plan on dignifying the rest of your post with a lengthy response. I'm sure that others will be happy to do that in my place. [/quote]Point of that sentence is that you cannot be attracted to the pheramone of the same gender, because you emit it yourself. And as any person with a must problem knows, you get used to your own smells.

I wish I could write briefly, and make that post only a few sentences long. Chances are I probably could figure it out, but I've convinced myself long ago that I am verbose, and talk a lot. But I certainly don't want to.
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crimson Spider [/i]
[B]Why, rather easily actually. For the same reasons why a person would convince themselves that they wouldn't be able to do something so small and insignificant as draw good, or play basketball well, or play volleyball well, or be smart enough to pass school, or why the glass is half empty, or why many women go back to their abusive husbands when given the chance to go away. Same reason.[/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]So you're saying that people convince themselves to be gay? That so obviously flies in the face of reality.

First and foremost, [i]many[/i] gay men and women convince themselves to be [i]straight[/i]. That's the first point. If you are a second class citizen, you're obviously going to try and fit into the status quo as much as you can. There are many people in this situation, who are essentially going against their own natural desires, because it is socially acceptable for them to do so.

To me, the point you made here only underlines the fact that you don't understand sexuality. Did you wake up one day and decide to be attracted to women? Was that a conscious choice? And are you convincing yourself of that all the time, despite knowing better?

Of course not. You aren't making a conscious decision to be attracted to a particular gender; it's part of who you are. You don't have control over that.

In the same way, you don't have control over the women that you may fall in love with. You might fall in love with a girl and try to convince yourself otherwise for whatever reason -- but you know, deep in your heart, that you love her. And no amount of self-conviction will change that.

It's exactly the same for homosexual people. This idea that they are "deluding themselves" or that they are simply trying to convince themselves is complete and utter garbage. All of this is an ill-informed justification for keeping gay people in their little box -- keeping them as social outcasts and "freaks of nature". It's [i]no[/i] different to racial stereotyping, gender stereotyping or even religious stereotyping. And what is it born out of? It's born out of ignorance.[/color][quote][b]

Point of that sentence is that you cannot be attracted to the pheramone of the same gender, because you emit it yourself. And as any person with a must problem knows, you get used to your own smells.[/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]That's just foolish. Are you really serious when you talk about pheromones? lol.

If it were as simple as pheromones, I think our understanding of sexual attraction and love would be very different.

You can't tell me that your love for a woman relates entirely to pheromones either. You know that your love for a human being is a complex and multi-layered thing -- yes, there's a visual attraction. But there's also an important mental attraction, there's a mental bonding and a bonding of personalities. Simplifying love and sex and bringing it down to the raw pheromone level is not only unrealistic, but it is also yet another attempt to put homosexuals in their place. It's truly a way of justifying an illogical intolerance.[/color][quote][b]

I wish I could write briefly, and make that post only a few sentences long. Chances are I probably could figure it out, but I've convinced myself long ago that I am verbose, and talk a lot. But I certainly don't want to. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]In all honesty, I don't really blame you for what you're saying. Even though you are sitting there [i]justifying[/i] the second class status of homosexuals and attempting to explain that via a highly problematic "science", I don't blame you for it. This is an example of what parents are teaching their children and it's an example of the areas of society that need to change if we are all going to have the opportunity to live as equals in the future.

Seperately, I would take issue with what Boba Fett said about gay marriage "opening the floodgates", as it were. This whole slippery-slope argument is not only a convenient out, but it's also pretty unjustified. And it fails to recognize the legitimate feelings of homosexual people.

To say that homosexual marriages would also lead to acceptance of polygamy is ridiculous. How do the two correlate? Because they are both "unusual" and therefore, they tie into one another?

That makes little sense. Interracial marriages are "unusual", but they haven't lead to an increase in acceptance of polygamy or other "alternative" acts.

More importantly, I don't like the fact that homosexuality is being put on an equal ground with illegal actions like polygamy. I also don't like the fact that homosexuality has been compared to everything from pedophilia to beastiality (on this very forum, no less). I don't like it because it is, once more, an attempt to shaft homosexuals and to make them appear as subordinate, less-than-human individuals. It's wrong, cruel and ignorant.

How is it that one can not see the difference between a homosexual relationship and relations between children and adults or adults and animals? The comparison is so far out and extreme that it boggles the mind.

All of these issues are obviously long-held beliefs. The problem is that, like many beliefs in human history (ie: racism), they are fundamentally opposite to the concept of human equality and dignity. Even on a basic level, they disregard science. I find it interesting that Crimson Spider, for example, will jump up and start using science when it suits an anti-gay argument. But he'll reject science when it's used to debunk religious ideas. Does anyone else find this to be a unique, self-serving double standard? Or is it just me? Either way, I think it's very transparent.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the topic. If everyone would like to continue this discussion, I recommend that it be done via PM and/or AIM.

I say that for two reasons. Firstly, we've already had this same topic appear multilple times in recent months. Even though this thread was specifically about a new court ruling, we've actually had numerous debates about gay marriage before. Most of what we're seeing here is simply a repeat of what we've already seen. The same defences and the same misinformation.

More importantly still is the whole idea that this is a thread that won't be able to go anywhere. We have already moved well away from the topic of gay marriage and we're now talking about whether homosexuals are natural or not. Here we are, dissecting the elements that allow people to fall in love. I can definitely understand why a discussion of this nature could be seen as callous -- or at least, unsympathetic to someone's basic humanity. It would be the same if people were trying to use science to justify the idea that one race is inferior to another.

And following that line...we all know that this is very much like a religious debate. Nobody can win. I've already illustrated the selective science being used here -- and when that kind of thing is done, how can a legitimate debate be had? At the very least, we know that we're going to see a cycle of continually repetitive discussion.

So that's about as thorough as I can be regarding this thread. I've allowed it to continue for a few pages, though, because I wanted to give everyone the opportunity to state their views for others to read. And now that's been done.[/color]
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