This Star Wars interpretation will shock you, methinks.

[Brasil]

:::::::SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER:::::::::::::::::



People, Luke Skywalker falls to the Dark Side of The Force in Return of the Jedi.

madsatirist (9:11:37 PM): ::is now watching RotJ::
madsatirist (9:11:48 PM): Trilogy x2
Shinmaru007 (9:11:51 PM): :-D
madsatirist (9:11:52 PM): first Star Wars
madsatirist (9:11:54 PM): then Terminator
madsatirist (9:11:55 PM): :-D
Shinmaru007 (9:11:58 PM): I watched that earlier today, heh.
Shinmaru007 (9:12:01 PM): Ooh, awesome.
madsatirist (9:12:04 PM): indeed
Shinmaru007 (9:12:06 PM): Going for the gold today, eh?
madsatirist (9:12:12 PM): ::goes back to make chocolate milk::
Shinmaru007 (9:12:15 PM): lol
madsatirist (9:12:15 PM): hellz yeah
madsatirist (9:12:18 PM): see ya in a few hours
Shinmaru007 (9:12:21 PM): Okay.
madsatirist (11:28:12 PM): DUUUUUUDE
madsatirist (11:28:28 PM): got some Star Wars related stuff to talk about
Shinmaru007 (11:28:38 PM): Shoot.
madsatirist (11:29:23 PM): 1 sec
madsatirist (11:29:28 PM): he's at the potty
madsatirist (11:29:30 PM): ^_^
Shinmaru007 (11:29:33 PM): lol
madsatirist (11:29:45 PM): okay, first,
madsatirist (11:29:48 PM): Force Choke
madsatirist (11:29:51 PM): Dark Power, right?
Shinmaru007 (11:29:54 PM): Yep.
madsatirist (11:29:58 PM): k
madsatirist (11:30:18 PM): so then, any Jedi or FS character using Force Choke is Dark Side or falling to it
madsatirist (11:30:19 PM): right?
Shinmaru007 (11:30:37 PM): Yeah.
madsatirist (11:30:51 PM): Luke was Dark Side throughout the entirety of RotJ
Shinmaru007 (11:31:28 PM): Yes, I've often thought that, too o.o
madsatirist (11:31:53 PM): Jenn doesn't agree with me, though--doesn't agree with us
Shinmaru007 (11:32:31 PM): She have any arguments against it?
madsatirist (11:32:50 PM): Well, she argues that Luke is conflicted in RotJ
madsatirist (11:33:03 PM): his shadow/light presentation
madsatirist (11:33:05 PM): framewise
madsatirist (11:33:06 PM): etfc
madsatirist (11:33:07 PM): etc
Shinmaru007 (11:33:17 PM): =/
madsatirist (11:33:17 PM): but he's presented in shadow so much more than light
Shinmaru007 (11:33:22 PM): Yeah.
madsatirist (11:33:37 PM): OH!
madsatirist (11:33:39 PM): CHECK THIS
madsatirist (11:33:40 PM): okay,
madsatirist (11:33:42 PM): in Empire,
madsatirist (11:33:52 PM): Ben and Yoda plead with Luke to not cut his training short
madsatirist (11:34:02 PM): both advise him to learn to control himself
Shinmaru007 (11:34:02 PM): *nods*
madsatirist (11:34:37 PM): But...in Jedi,
madsatirist (11:34:44 PM): when Yoda has disappeared
madsatirist (11:34:52 PM): and Ben walks out to sit down with Luke,
madsatirist (11:35:01 PM): Ben is telling him that he needs to kill Vader
madsatirist (11:35:12 PM): while in Empire he was saying don't kill Vader
Shinmaru007 (11:35:22 PM): Interesting...
madsatirist (11:35:44 PM): and Emperor and Vader both tell Luke he needs to kill Vader or Emperor at the end of Jedi
madsatirist (11:35:59 PM): and, Emperor was controlling/foreseeing everything in the trilogy
madsatirist (11:36:11 PM): so...since Emperor is the ultimate wielder of The Force,
madsatirist (11:36:29 PM): is it...is it possible that he was manifesting himself in the form of Ben in Jedi?
madsatirist (11:36:39 PM): I mean,
madsatirist (11:36:49 PM): this would totally shatter everything Ben says in Jedi
madsatirist (11:37:14 PM): Our idea of Ben is changed
Shinmaru007 (11:37:19 PM): Yeah.
Shinmaru007 (11:37:42 PM): It's possible...we still don't know the full extent of the Dark Side of the Force.
Shinmaru007 (11:37:58 PM): The Emperor could very well have done that o_o
madsatirist (11:38:03 PM): yeah
madsatirist (11:38:09 PM): what makes me think this more,
madsatirist (11:38:15 PM): is how Ben appears in Jedi
madsatirist (11:38:18 PM): I mean,
madsatirist (11:38:21 PM): he walks out
madsatirist (11:38:24 PM): and the brush moves
madsatirist (11:38:32 PM): it sways as he walks past it
madsatirist (11:38:43 PM): every other time in Hope and Empire,
madsatirist (11:38:47 PM): he just appears
Shinmaru007 (11:39:22 PM): *nods*
madsatirist (11:40:02 PM): So, this supports the idea that it really isn't Ben, merely a corrupt imitation
madsatirist (11:40:50 PM): and who says Star Wars' story lacks substance?
madsatirist (11:40:55 PM): *cough*James*cough*
madsatirist (11:40:56 PM): lol
Shinmaru007 (11:40:58 PM): lol
madsatirist (11:41:28 PM): and the Trilogy is based on Existentialism, too
madsatirist (11:41:36 PM): the idea of actions and decisions shaping who we are
madsatirist (11:41:42 PM): shaping the core essence of what we are
Shinmaru007 (11:42:46 PM): Yep, that's true, especially with Luke getting the visions in Empire and then acting upon what he saw.
madsatirist (11:42:54 PM): ::nods::
madsatirist (11:44:21 PM): And also, Luke leaves his first training early
madsatirist (11:44:31 PM): letting his emotions cloud him
madsatirist (11:44:52 PM): the path to the Dark Side
Shinmaru007 (11:45:00 PM): Yep.
madsatirist (11:45:03 PM): then in Jabba's Palace
madsatirist (11:45:09 PM): never portrayed in light at all
madsatirist (11:45:18 PM): not even upon entering
madsatirist (11:45:24 PM): and as soon as he enters,
madsatirist (11:45:26 PM): Force Choke
Shinmaru007 (11:45:31 PM): Heh heh.
madsatirist (11:45:39 PM): and Dominate Mind
madsatirist (11:45:51 PM): AND,
madsatirist (11:45:54 PM): his attire change
madsatirist (11:46:05 PM): In Hope, white tunic
madsatirist (11:46:16 PM): and Han is dressed in dark clothing
madsatirist (11:46:24 PM): then throughout the series,
madsatirist (11:46:31 PM): Luke's clothing gets progressively darker
madsatirist (11:46:41 PM): to the point in Jabba's Palace where Han is in white
madsatirist (11:46:47 PM): and often in light
madsatirist (11:46:52 PM): while Luke is total black
Shinmaru007 (11:47:15 PM): *nods* And it's capped off later on, when Luke dons the black glove, heh.
madsatirist (11:47:20 PM): yeah
madsatirist (11:47:33 PM): and also,
madsatirist (11:47:35 PM): in Jedi,
madsatirist (11:47:42 PM): he's looking out the window, at the battle
madsatirist (11:47:51 PM): every time he turns to Emperor,
madsatirist (11:47:56 PM): he is away from the light
madsatirist (11:48:07 PM): and he doesn't stay at the window, either
madsatirist (11:48:12 PM): he goes for the Emperor
Shinmaru007 (11:48:49 PM): Yep, that's pretty much when he really gives in to the Dark Side.
madsatirist (11:50:02 PM): I've got to post this on OB
madsatirist (11:50:07 PM): this entire theory
Shinmaru007 (11:50:17 PM): That would rock :D
madsatirist (11:50:20 PM): imagine how many people would get so...disillusioned
Shinmaru007 (11:50:25 PM): Heh heh.
madsatirist (11:50:30 PM): excellent
Shinmaru007 (11:50:48 PM): Yes, that deserves a Mr. Burns 'Excellent,' I think.
madsatirist (11:50:58 PM): indeed

Oh yeah. Obi-Wan in Jedi...not Obi-Wan...that's The Emperor manifesting himself as Obi-Wan. After all, The Emperor foresees everything in the Trilogy. Plus, he is the ultimate wielder of The Force in the Trilogy. He's the one controlling everything. It makes perfect sense that his powers have that capacity.

I'll add more later, but everyone, Star Wars is not empty, nor is its story weak or underdeveloped. People just aren't looking hard enough.

The entire basis of Star Wars is Existentialism...the idea that we are defined through action and decision. Our core being is altered by what we do.

Star Wars is not deep? Hardly.

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]People, Luke Skywalker falls to the Dark Side of The Force in Return of the Jedi.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]Ahem.

I?m assuming you?re basing this whole thing on the assumption that the force is divided into the ?light? and ?dark? sides. However, the [u]New Jedi Order[/u] novel series explores, and eventually affirms, that the force is actually unified.

For the sake of argument, I?ll assume this discussion will be of Episodes I-VI only.[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]madsatirist (11:29:48 PM): Force Choke
madsatirist (11:29:51 PM): Dark Power, right?
Shinmaru007 (11:29:54 PM): Yep.
madsatirist (11:29:58 PM): k
madsatirist (11:30:18 PM): so then, any Jedi or FS character using Force Choke is Dark Side or falling to it
madsatirist (11:30:19 PM): right?
Shinmaru007 (11:30:37 PM): Yeah.
madsatirist (11:30:51 PM): Luke was Dark Side throughout the entirety of RotJ
Shinmaru007 (11:31:28 PM): Yes, I've often thought that, too o.o
madsatirist (11:31:53 PM): Jenn doesn't agree with me, though--doesn't agree with us
Shinmaru007 (11:32:31 PM): She have any arguments against it?
madsatirist (11:32:50 PM): Well, she argues that Luke is conflicted in RotJ
madsatirist (11:33:03 PM): his shadow/light presentation
madsatirist (11:33:05 PM): framewise[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]I?d have to say, since this argument is now based [b]solely[/b] on the movies, that there is no way of knowing whether or not force choke is a dark side skill. Just because Darth Vader uses this power in [b]ANH[/b] and [b]ESB[/b], doesn?t mean this is a power unique to the dark side. Luke, Vader and Ben all use alter mind. Therefore, it?s safe to assume that alter mind is a fairly common and benign power belonging to neither side. Couldn?t force choke be the same thing?[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]madsatirist (11:33:42 PM): in Empire,
madsatirist (11:33:52 PM): Ben and Yoda plead with Luke to not cut his training short
madsatirist (11:34:02 PM): both advise him to learn to control himself
Shinmaru007 (11:34:02 PM): *nods*
madsatirist (11:34:37 PM): But...in Jedi,
madsatirist (11:34:44 PM): when Yoda has disappeared
madsatirist (11:34:52 PM): and Ben walks out to sit down with Luke,
madsatirist (11:35:01 PM): Ben is telling him that he needs to kill Vader
madsatirist (11:35:12 PM): while in Empire he was saying don't kill Vader
Shinmaru007 (11:35:22 PM): Interesting...
madsatirist (11:35:44 PM): and Emperor and Vader both tell Luke he needs to kill Vader or Emperor at the end of Jedi
madsatirist (11:35:59 PM): and, Emperor was controlling/foreseeing everything in the trilogy
madsatirist (11:36:11 PM): so...since Emperor is the ultimate wielder of The Force,
madsatirist (11:36:29 PM): is it...is it possible that he was manifesting himself in the form of Ben in Jedi?
madsatirist (11:36:39 PM): I mean,
madsatirist (11:36:49 PM): this would totally shatter everything Ben says in Jedi
madsatirist (11:37:14 PM): Our idea of Ben is changed
Shinmaru007 (11:37:19 PM): Yeah.
Shinmaru007 (11:37:42 PM): It's possible...we still don't know the full extent of the Dark Side of the Force.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]*Twitches*

There is a wealth of information outside the canon that indicates that Force Spirits, referred to by the less respectful as ?blue glowys?, cannot be controlled nor created by someone still living. However, since the expanded universe is currently out of play?

*Twitches*

Your interpretation of these events is correct. Luke is indeed falling to the dark side.[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]madsatirist (11:38:09 PM): what makes me think this more,
madsatirist (11:38:15 PM): is how Ben appears in Jedi
madsatirist (11:38:18 PM): I mean,
madsatirist (11:38:21 PM): he walks out
madsatirist (11:38:24 PM): and the brush moves
madsatirist (11:38:32 PM): it sways as he walks past it
madsatirist (11:38:43 PM): every other time in Hope and Empire,
madsatirist (11:38:47 PM): he just appears
Shinmaru007 (11:39:22 PM): *nods*
madsatirist (11:40:02 PM): So, this supports the idea that it really isn't Ben, merely a corrupt imitation[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]*More Expanded Universe twitching*

Could be. However, I attribute this to Ben?s nervousness. After all, he?s in very hot water with Luke. Should Luke determine that Leia is the ?other? Yoda mentioned, the final fallback plan for Ben will collapse. There will be no hope for the Jedi should Luke go over to the Dark Side.

This explains Ben?s increased influence on his surroundings.[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]madsatirist (11:44:21 PM): And also, Luke leaves his first training early
madsatirist (11:44:31 PM): letting his emotions cloud him
madsatirist (11:44:52 PM): the path to the Dark Side
Shinmaru007 (11:45:00 PM): Yep.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]The path of the Dark Side is a long one. A single act, while it can lead to the dark side, isn?t a defining action. It is still very possible for Luke to retain his light side allegiance.[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]madsatirist (11:45:54 PM): his attire change
madsatirist (11:46:05 PM): In Hope, white tunic
madsatirist (11:46:16 PM): and Han is dressed in dark clothing
madsatirist (11:46:24 PM): then throughout the series,
madsatirist (11:46:31 PM): Luke's clothing gets progressively darker
madsatirist (11:46:41 PM): to the point in Jabba's Palace where Han is in white
madsatirist (11:46:47 PM): and often in light
madsatirist (11:46:52 PM): while Luke is total black
Shinmaru007 (11:47:15 PM): *nods* And it's capped off later on, when Luke dons the black glove, heh.
madsatirist (11:47:20 PM): yeah
madsatirist (11:47:33 PM): and also,
madsatirist (11:47:35 PM): in Jedi,
madsatirist (11:47:42 PM): he's looking out the window, at the battle
madsatirist (11:47:51 PM): every time he turns to Emperor,
madsatirist (11:47:56 PM): he is away from the light
madsatirist (11:48:07 PM): and he doesn't stay at the window, either
madsatirist (11:48:12 PM): he goes for the Emperor
Shinmaru007 (11:48:49 PM): Yep, that's pretty much when he really gives in to the Dark Side.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]This is all true PT. Luke is steadily falling to the Dark Side. You?ve convinced me.

Almost.

After Luke taking all these dark actions, [b]ROTJ[/b] reaches it?s plot climax. Luke is fighting with his father under the watchful and insanely manipulative eye of Emperor Palpitine. At the end of the battle scene, Luke has severe his father?s hand. After doing this, he is horrified at what he has done. It is here that his redemption starts. Luke throws away his lightsaber and tells the Emperor that he will no longer fight.

The Emperor?s attitude then turns from malevolent glee to rage.

Emperor: ?So be it? Jedi.?

The Emperor then proceeds to attack Luke with Force lightning, intent on killing him. Why would the Emperor do this if Luke were of the dark side? If Luke were, as you claim, of the dark side at this time, the Emperor would have accomplished his goal. He would have been happy if Luke had turned, since he is not?[/color]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i]
[B]Oh yeah. Obi-Wan in Jedi...not Obi-Wan...that's The Emperor manifesting himself as Obi-Wan. After all, The Emperor foresees everything in the Trilogy. Plus, he is the ultimate wielder of The Force in the Trilogy. He's the one controlling everything. It makes perfect sense that his powers have that capacity.

I'll add more later, but everyone, Star Wars is not empty, nor is its story weak or underdeveloped. People just aren't looking hard enough.

The entire basis of Star Wars is Existentialism...the idea that we are defined through action and decision. Our core being is altered by what we do.

Star Wars is not deep? Hardly. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=green]I?d already refuted Obi-Wan?s appearance discrepancies.

As for the Emperor seeing everything?

Yoda: ?Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.?

Also, if the Emperor had foreseen everything, why did he get killed in the end? Wouldn?t he have foreseen his death and avoided the situation entirely?

I agree with your existentialism ideas and their relationship to Star Wars, as well as your observation that Star Wars is ?deep?.

However agree with Luke?s falling to the dark side, I do not.[/color]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Boba Fett [/i]
[B][color=green]Ahem.

I?m assuming you?re basing this whole thing on the assumption that the force is divided into the ?light? and ?dark? sides. However, the [u]New Jedi Order[/u] novel series explores, and eventually affirms, that the force is actually unified.

For the sake of argument, I?ll assume this discussion will be of Episodes I-VI only.[/color][/quote]

Boba, remember that the outside canon novels and expanded universe had been written really only [i]after[/i] RotJ. While Lucas endorsed them, their relevance to the Original Trilogy is essentially null and void, as their publication and penning occurred after the Original Trilogy. They may be great stories, but I really do not support using them for support when we are concentrating solely on the films--Original Trilogy.


[quote][color=green]I?d have to say, since this argument is now based [b]solely[/b] on the movies, that there is no way of knowing whether or not force choke is a dark side skill. Just because Darth Vader uses this power in [b]ANH[/b] and [b]ESB[/b], doesn?t mean this is a power unique to the dark side. Luke, Vader and Ben all use alter mind. Therefore, it?s safe to assume that alter mind is a fairly common and benign power belonging to neither side. Couldn?t force choke be the same thing?[/color][/quote]

It could, but would that make sense? I examine what Force Powers are used throughout the OT. Obi-Wan never uses Choke, and even in this situations where he could use it--provided he has it--he does not.

Also, considering just what characters utilize Choke, Darth Vader, and the imagery we are given to show how horrible and [i]dark[/i] Force Choke is, it's very reasonable to say that Choke is a Dark Side power.

I agree with you on the Mind powers being universal Force Powers, but I think it's made very clear that Force Choke is along the Dark Side.

[quote][color=green]*Twitches*

There is a wealth of information outside the canon that indicates that Force Spirits, referred to by the less respectful as ?blue glowys?, cannot be controlled nor created by someone still living. However, since the expanded universe is currently out of play?

*Twitches*

Your interpretation of these events is correct. Luke is indeed falling to the dark side.[/color][/quote]

Yes, I mentioned how the outside material isn't in play, here, because well...it wasn't even written back then.


[quote][color=green]*More Expanded Universe twitching*

Could be. However, I attribute this to Ben?s nervousness. After all, he?s in very hot water with Luke. Should Luke determine that Leia is the ?other? Yoda mentioned, the final fallback plan for Ben will collapse. There will be no hope for the Jedi should Luke go over to the Dark Side.

This explains Ben?s increased influence on his surroundings.[/color][/quote]

Really? Does it? Ben even sits down next to Luke, and his message is one that The Emperor himself preaches. I'm assuming you watched the OT back to back? Go through it again.

Ben's ANH and ESB Spirit and Jedi's are so radically different that it seems impossible to explain it with "Ben was under stress."

And when we take into account just what Ben said or implied after Yoda's death in Jedi, we are a bit shocked. He really essentially tells Luke, "You must kill Darth Vader." The specific lines phrase it differently,

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Ben: Then The Emperor has already won.

Compare Ben's "Kill" message to The Emperor's sermons in the Finale. You admit that the suggestions are eerily similar?

[quote][color=green]The path of the Dark Side is a long one. A single act, while it can lead to the dark side, isn?t a defining action. It is still very possible for Luke to retain his light side allegiance.[/color][/quote]

But the path to the Dark Side is faster. Yoda said it. "Faster, more seductive."

When Luke leaves his training, he leaves it for a faster solution. He begins his fall in the end of Empire.

The black glove, too, after his hand gets sliced off.

Then in RotJ, he appears and uses Force Choke, which we've established is a Dark Power. Keep in mind, too, that he never went back to Yoda to finish his training until [i]after[/i] he [u]kills[/u] Jabba and his cronies. Still on the Light Side, you say?

[quote][color=green]This is all true PT. Luke is steadily falling to the Dark Side. You?ve convinced me.

Almost.

After Luke taking all these dark actions, [b]ROTJ[/b] reaches it?s plot climax. Luke is fighting with his father under the watchful and insanely manipulative eye of Emperor Palpitine. At the end of the battle scene, Luke has severe his father?s hand. After doing this, he is horrified at what he has done. It is here that his redemption starts. Luke throws away his lightsaber and tells the Emperor that he will no longer fight.

The Emperor?s attitude then turns from malevolent glee to rage.

Emperor: ?So be it? Jedi.?

The Emperor then proceeds to attack Luke with Force lightning, intent on killing him. Why would the Emperor do this if Luke were of the dark side? If Luke were, as you claim, of the dark side at this time, the Emperor would have accomplished his goal. He would have been happy if Luke had turned, since he is not?[/color][/quote]

"After doing this, he is horrified at what he has done."

He is not horrified at what he has done, he is horrified at what he [i]sees[/i]. His father's right hand, or lack thereof, is a machine.

This brings him back to ESB, with the cave. He is Darth Vader. If he destroys Vader, he destroys himself. That is why he throws his lightsaber away, because his lightsaber is directly responsible for his experiences in the cave.

"It is here that his redemption starts."

It's not even a start, either. It's one action. Does one action decide Light Side progression? You've said one action does not decide Dark Side, and I agree. I think it is only fair to say that one action does not decide Light Side. There were many (multiple) times in which Luke performed Dark Side actions; I find it incredibly hard to believe that one action can negate all of this.



[quote][color=green]I?d already refuted Obi-Wan?s appearance discrepancies.

As for the Emperor seeing everything?

Yoda: ?Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.?

Also, if the Emperor had foreseen everything, why did he get killed in the end? Wouldn?t he have foreseen his death and avoided the situation entirely?

I agree with your existentialism ideas and their relationship to Star Wars, as well as your observation that Star Wars is ?deep?.

However agree with Luke?s falling to the dark side, I do not.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I have debunked your refute of the discrepancies.

[quote]Yoda: ?Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.?[/quote]

You just answered your own question, but let's continue.

Remember when Vader told Palpatine that his son was on Endor? Palpatine didn't feel it and asks Vader if his feelings are tainted, or something to that effect.

See, I believe the reason that Palpatine was unable to predict Vader's betrayal was that Vader had begun to subconsciously drift away from his master.

Something in their dynamic was faltering. A...wavelength was disrupted. Call it a "disturbance in The Force."

And also, Palpatine is going quite insane with glee at the end, which could have clouded his cognition.

Also, he had foreseen Luke killing him. We could--yes. Luke does kill Palpatine, through manipulating his father. What looks like a plea for help isn't. It's Luke controlling the situation. He had already planted the seeds of influence previously, insisting that his father is still good. Luke was manipulating him in the same manner The Emperor does.

Come to think of it, one of the primary reasons that Luke will fall to the Dark Side is killing Palpatine, assuming the mantle of Dark Lord, so to speak.

In refusing to kill his father, Luke kills Palpatine. Light Side, you say?

In the Ewok village party at the end, Luke is presented in more light, but even that light has prominent streaks of shadow. The torchlights and funeral pyre cast almost ghostly glows on Luke, and he is still not presented totally in the Light. When he is looking at Ben, Yoda, and Anakin's Force Spirits, his face is still half-clad in shadow.

The final shot is a "family" shot, in a sense, with Solo in the center, as the father figure. Luke is off-center, to the right of the frame. He looks just a bit out of place, doesn't he? His placement in the shot is that of the isolated son, the one who isn't truly part of what is around him.

This "isolated son" motif does not imply that he has turned to the Light Side. In fact, after the climax of the film, he is presented in half shadow and half light. He is not Light Side.

He has broken even.

At least, that's my take on it.

[Boba Fett]

[COLOR=green]After:

[list]
[*]Watching [u]The Empire Strikes Back[/u]
[*]Watching [u]Return of the Jedi[/u]
[*]Rereading this thread
[*]A long AIM conversation with Poison Tongue
[*]Deflating my ego
[/list]

I have come to the startling realization that all of this seems to be true. Needless to say, this has shaken my previously held beliefs about Star Wars to the core.

You?d make a damn good spin doctor Poison Tongue.

-Boba[/COLOR]

[James P. Galvatron]

I never thought of it like that I always thought of Star Wars being more deep than people thought it was, but If you watch the first three(after the last one comes out) and A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. You will notice that Anakin and Luke both broke the rules in a similar fashion. I do doubt though that Luke becomes the Dark Emperor probably a teacher of future jedi, but Dark Lord no.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Inuyasha7271 [/i]
[B]I never thought of it like that I always thought of Star Wars being more deep than people thought it was, but If you watch the first three(after the last one comes out) and A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. You will notice that Anakin and Luke both broke the rules in a similar fashion. I do doubt though that Luke becomes the Dark Emperor probably a teacher of future jedi, but Dark Lord no. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if you fully appreciate what this interpretation does, lol.

The entire Expanded Universe is broken now. Everything that bases its narrative off of the (incorrect) idea that Luke is "good" in RotJ, is now obsolete.

Also, I don't think you understand just what Luke's fall means. See, at the end of RotJ, Luke has broken even...meaning, he is neither Light nor Dark--at least, that's the nice way of putting it. I have a feeling there is still more Dark Side there than is shown.

For example, Ben's lightsaber is blue, and Luke's lightsaber color is blue, up until losing his hand. With his hand goes his blue lightsaber, and I think it is safe to say that Luke losing that blue lightsaber is the final sign of Ben's death.

This is further supported by The Emperor's Obi-Wan imitation in Jedi. Obi-Wan was fully killed in ESB, when the blue lightsaber was lost; and the positive messages that he preached are now dead.

There is a reason that Luke builds a green lightsaber, too.

[url]http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/c-wheel.html[/url]

Red and Green are complementary colors.

[quote]Color Complements are color opposites. These colors contrast each other in the most extreme way possible. They also help to make each other more active.[/quote]

That definition is most interesting. Red and Green contrast each other. If Red lightsabers symbolize the Dark Side, then Green lightsabers symbolize the Light Side--and Luke throws the Green lightsaber away.

Red and Green also strengthen each other. This means, Luke's choice of a Green Lightsaber symbolizes the Dark Side growing stronger. But if he throws the Green lightsaber away, does that mean the Dark Side has lost?

No.

We know that Leia is Force-Sensitive and we know that she will rebuild the Republic. This is known even with the EU thrown-out. We also know that Leia will (most likely) be on the Light Side when she develops her Force Powers.

But here's the twist. Apart from Luke, there are no other Jedi left. And when you examine the make-up of that final shot in RotJ, you see that Luke and Leia are standing next to each other. The shot is unbalanced. If we adhere to the belief that Luke is Light Side, this unbalance is not a concern.

However, now that we have established Luke did fall to the Dark Side in RotJ, this unbalance becomes dangerous...very dangerous. Luke no longer has anyone to guide him. He has no Light Jedi to show him the good path. Considering also, that he fell so easily, he will fall again.

If we use the unbalanced family shot of RotJ as a reference, and realize that Leia is Light Side, there is no Dark Side in that image.

And here is where it gets even more interesting. Luke is Dark Side, or has an intense predisposition to the Dark Side. If he will fall again, become a Dark Jedi, Leia has no chance of going Light. This means that the next three episodes (if they are ever made) will feature a shadow of the Empire. The New Republic that Leia creates will not be a Republic; it will be a New Empire.

EDIT INSERT: It seems that the entire right side of that family shot will be corrupted and/or destroyed.

See what this means? Yes, Luke will become a teacher, perhaps, but he will be training future [i]Dark[/i] Jedi.

Not to sound Nihilistic, but unless they kill Luke, Leia will fall, just as Luke did. Luke is going to train her in The Force and...mistakes will be made.

See how the Expanded Universe is utterly destroyed now?