AzureWolf Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [quote name='Lore][color=#ff6600]Remember, from the very beginning of the series, Reki was always upset about[/color] [spoiler]people always leaving her[/spoiler'].[/quote][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Right, right. I see what you are talking about with the situations you cited. To my knowledge, Reki was [SPOILER]sin-bound (aka, black winged)[/SPOILER] since the moment she arrived at Gaihe, so I wrongly assumed that meant [SPOILER]she always behaved cold and unwelcoming[/SPOILER], but there really is no indication of that. Besides, as Rakka demonstrates, [SPOILER]having black wings doesn't immediately equate to being a meany[/SPOILER]. Confusion on my part, heh. Which brings up a good question: does Reki [SPOILER]have black wings throughout the entire series and hides it using that thing the... "teacher Haibane" gave her[/SPOILER]? If not, when do you think she lost them? I'm wholly satisfied with your FGiWD? explanation. I will now adapt it and claim it as my own (regardless of the ? sign). :p [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I have no idea if FGiWD? [spoiler] had wings[/spoiler].[/color][/QUOTE]*snaps fingers* I'm going to be angry and just paint them in if they aren't there, since the idea I had kind of crumbles provided that [SPOILER]Reki was not necessarily a meany from day one[/SPOILER]. Well, just to mention the idea a bit, I'm convinced Reki [SPOILER]committed suicide. Killing yourself is like, bad, because you commit a sin you can't repent[/SPOILER]. So, she came to Gaihe [SPOILER]with black wings[/SPOILER]. The FGiWD? steps in as [SPOILER]a reflection of Reki's mental state[/SPOILER], since what you see is very similar. That is, [SPOILER]she seeks help from others, can't find any, and commits suicide[/SPOILER]. As a [SPOILER]Haibane, our FGiWD? friend, who is now Reki, is forced to seek help, refuses any given, and commits a different kind of suicide[/SPOILER]. Did that make sense? Do you agree with the [SPOILER]suicide[/SPOILER] part at least? [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]...before I can say anything about the Toga, I need to know who they are, exactly. That is, what information are we given in the story? The Official guy at the Temple place knew the [spoiler]hand signals and could communicate with them, yes? [/spoiler] Was he one of them?[/color][/QUOTE]I just group all the weirdos that have those really strange masks as the Toga. I don't know if that's a correct assumption to go with, but it sums the weirdos in one word, so I like it. As for what information is given, I think that was everything. At least, if there was anything else, it didn't stand out as much as the key facts you mentioned. What is up with those masks anyway? I wonder if their freaky design has any significance. Also, [SPOILER]they are the only ones allowed to interact with the outside world[/SPOILER]... that doesn't really support my idea of "what are the Toga?" but it's interesting that you brought it up. I wonder why that is so? [QUOTE][color=#ff6600][spoiler]My original thought here was that the Toga were such "failed" Haibane.[/spoiler] There wasn't a lot of good reason for this...[/color][/QUOTE]Bingo! Haha, I didn't really think much about the Toga until that one time I mentioned before. I thought, "[SPOILER]that's odd, it seems like he's got a backpack under the garb, or...[/SPOILER]" After that, all the little tidbits we were given about the group flooded my mind, and I was always suspicious. Which was distracting, admittedly, since I was always thinking, [SPOILER]"Oh, they have to tell us the truth about them now. No? How about now?"[/SPOILER] To explain the head Toga's explanation about [SPOILER]failed Haibane losing their wings[/SPOILER] when I think otherwise: maybe [SPOILER]they lose all their feathers, but they don't lose the wing structure that's on their backs, because it does look like they are hunching over[/SPOILER]. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I was talking with Robb about this last night, and he suggested that the Official was [spoiler] such a failed Haibane. I personally can't remember if he had his halo and wings, although I think he did have wings (or at least wing covers?) [/spoiler] When I asked about the Toga [spoiler]not talking, he said it was to keep the people in the town from getting any information about the outside world.[/spoiler] Which makes sense, I think.[/color][/QUOTE]Just the Official? What about the rest of them? I agree with the Official, since I think that was the person [SPOILER]leading Rakka to between the walls to do the job[/SPOILER]. Do you have a different idea about the rest of them? And how do you explain the [SPOILER]wing thing if the Official guy has them[/SPOILER]? Why is he different from the others if he is the only one? As I mentioned before, I never thought much about the whole [SPOILER]talking to the outside[/SPOILER] aspect of the Toga before, so I'm not sure. I thought that they couldn't so [SPOILER]no one would remember them by sound[/SPOILER] or something. However, if we can derive a good explanation about the [SPOILER]inside-gate and outside-gate relevance[/SPOILER], then I'm willing to consider another reason for the Toga [SPOILER]not talking[/SPOILER]. In other words, what is [SPOILER]beyond the walls? Is that where the Haibane go when they fly? And why are the Toga the only ones allowed to interact with that world?[/SPOILER][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 [color=#ff6600][center][size=4][b][u]More Reki! [/b][/u][/size][/center] Reki has always been [spoiler]sin-bound[/spoiler], and has always had [spoiler]black wings. She hides them using the stuff Kuramori got for her[/spoiler]. At least, that was the impression I got, and I didn't see anything that suggested otherwise. However, again, I think Reki was [i]not[/i] a [spoiler]"meany from day one." Scared, yes, lost, yes, but not closed off. The episode where Kuramori takes ill, for example--Reki is quite wide-eyes and sweet, and Nemu (Is that her name?) is rather scathing towards her.[/spoiler] Yes, I definitely agree that Reki [spoiler]committed suicide, and that was why she arrived sin-bound[/spoiler]. Ah, and now that you mention it specifically in that context, I guess there is something in Christian theology about that. I'm not sure what, specifically, but yeah--I understand what you were asking now, heh. [/color][quote name='Azure][color=blue]The FGiWD? steps in as [SPOILER]a reflection of Reki's mental state[/SPOILER], since what you see is very similar. That is, [SPOILER]she seeks help from others, can't find any, and commits suicide[/SPOILER]. As a [SPOILER]Haibane, our FGiWD? friend, who is now Reki, is forced to seek help, refuses any given, and commits a different kind of suicide[/SPOILER'].[/color][/quote][color=#ff6600] I'm not really sure what you mean. Could you reword that, maybe? [center][size=4][b][u]More Toga![/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='Azure][color=blue]Which was distracting, admittedly, since I was always thinking, [SPOILER]"Oh, they have to tell us the truth about them now. No? How about now?"[/SPOILER'][/color][/quote]Heheh. That made me laugh. Okay, so we're assuming all the masked weirdos (including the offical?) are Toga, then? Alright, hm... [center][size=4][b][u]Toga and the Official![/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='Azure][color=blue]Just the Official? What about the rest of them? I agree with the Official, since I think that was the person [SPOILER]leading Rakka to between the walls to do the job[/SPOILER]. Do you have a different idea about the rest of them? And how do you explain the [SPOILER]wing thing if the Official guy has them[/SPOILER']? Why is he different from the others if he is the only one?[/color][/quote]I don't have a different idea about the rest of them, no. But I guess I was sorta thinking there were two different groups--the Toga, and then the haibane who lived at the temple. Hopefully that explains what I was saying earlier. [center][size=4][b][u]Toga, moving into the NATURE OF GLIE! [spoiler]Duality, Purgatory, and other fun stuff.[/spoiler][/b][/u][/size][/center][quote=Azure][color=blue]As I mentioned before, I never thought much about the whole [SPOILER]talking to the outside[/SPOILER] aspect of the Toga before, so I'm not sure. I thought that they couldn't so [SPOILER]no one would remember them by sound[/SPOILER] or something. However, if we can derive a good explanation about the [SPOILER]inside-gate and outside-gate relevance[/SPOILER], then I'm willing to consider another reason for the Toga [SPOILER]not talking[/SPOILER]. In other words, what is [SPOILER]beyond the walls? Is that where the Haibane go when they fly? And why are the Toga the only ones allowed to interact with that world?[/SPOILER][/COLOR][/QUOTE]Well...we can look at the Toga and assume that they are [spoiler]Failed Haibane[/spoiler]. Okay...so what? They're allowed to make contact with the outside world...Hm. Why them? Because they actually know the nature of the town? What [i]is[/i] the nature of the town? I orginally thought that the town was simply an [spoiler]allegorical [b]symbol[/b] for something (Purgatory, perhaps, like we've discussed) However, that just doesn't seem to work. It seems to me, more and more, that the town has a complex dual nature. It may be a sort of purgatory, but it is also a real town. It contains Haibane, but also humans. It is surrounded by a wall that is Death while at the same time being a [i]physical wall[/i] that keeps people in/out. So perhaps the Toga also transcend the boundaries of being purely one thing or the other. No longer Haibane, neither are they human. [/spoiler] So why couldn't they also be able to pass through the wall? Like the town, the Toga are (in a sense) [spoiler][i]both[/i] literal and allegorical.[/spoiler] Tell me, does that make sense? I really feel that I need to watch this again. ^_^ wanted: dead or alive, Sara[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 [quote name='Lore][color=#ff6600]Yes, I definitely agree that Reki [spoiler]committed suicide, and that was why she arrived sin-bound[/spoiler']. Ah, and now that you mention it specifically in that context, I guess there is something in Christian theology about that. I'm not sure what, specifically, but yeah--I understand what you were asking now, heh.[/color][/quote][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]O_o Really? Well, it makes me feel better knowing that I wasn't a raving lunatic the whole time. But also, I'm pretty sure the notion I had about it was somewhat wrong. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I'm not really sure what you mean. Could you reword that, maybe?[/color][/QUOTE]I didn't bother to make it clear what were my assumptions and what were facts. Well, we both agree that Reki [SPOILER]committed suicide[/SPOILER], so we'll just take that as a fact. Now, (loosely) based on how she behaves in Gaihe, I assumed that [SPOILER]the pre-Gaihe Reki (aka FGiWD?) chose suicide after not being able to get help from others[/SPOILER]. So, the two different sides of the FGiWD? [SPOILER]reflect Reki's feelings alongside the pre-Gaihe Reki[/SPOILER]. Why? Because, if my assumption is true, then there are similarities in their situations. Assumption: FGiWD? [SPOILER]relies on others, they fail her, and so she commits suicide[/SPOILER]. Extrapolation from assumption: Reki, [SPOILER]cynical from "feelings" of her past life, refuses to rely on others, therefore fails to accept help, and almost chooses suicide (aka missing her day of flight)[/SPOILER]. So ultimately, the FGiWD? serves to [SPOILER]tell more about Reki's previous life before Gaihe[/SPOILER]. Unfortunately, as you can see, my idea requires that Reki was [SPOILER]a meany from day one[/SPOILER], which I now know to be untrue. But, if she was, I think it's a pretty sound idea, don't you think? <_< Did it make sense this time around? If not, just know that it's a moot possibility since Reki [SPOILER]wasn't always so cynical[/SPOILER]. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I don't have a different idea about the rest of them, no. But I guess I was sorta thinking there were two different groups--the Toga, and then the haibane who lived at the temple. Hopefully that explains what I was saying earlier.[/color][/QUOTE] Yeah, I think we're clear on who we are talking about when we talk about the Toga now. If all else fails, come up with another fun moniker like FGiWD? should Toga somehow become inappropriate. :p [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I orginally thought that the town was simply an [spoiler]allegorical [b]symbol[/b] for something (Purgatory, perhaps, like we've discussed) However, that just doesn't seem to work. It seems to me, more and more, that the town has a complex dual nature. It may be a sort of purgatory, but it is also a real town. It contains Haibane, but also humans. It is surrounded by a wall that is Death while at the same time being a [i]physical wall[/i] that keeps people in/out.[/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE]As I pointed out to you on AIM, this idea is [B][U]extremely[/U][/B] radical. Especially for me, since I've been using the [SPOILER]singular idea of Purgatory[/SPOILER] for the longest time. It's kind of funny, since it's clear to anyone who uses that angle that there's no way to address some of the most apparent and poignant mysteries of Haibane Renmei. In my defense, I tried thinking of other explanations, but then holes would appear in places where the [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] theory was solid. So, to come up with a [SPOILER]dual nature[/SPOILER] possibility is quite ingenious. I've been applying your idea with great success, and I've also been looking for support for your theory. I think, just the structure of the [SPOILER]inside of the walls (two sides, separated by water)[/SPOILER] may have been a hint at looking at [SPOILER]the town in more ways than one[/SPOILER]. I would really like to watch that specific episode again to see if there are more little elements supporting your claim. Speaking of that episode, I always wondered about [SPOILER]Kuu's(?) voice there[/SPOILER]... Anyway, long story short, I'm really liking this idea since it's opening a lot of doors for a more solid interpretation. I'd like to delve into this framework more and discuss various conclusions one can derive from it, but I need to watch Haibane Renmei again with your proposed outline in mind. Why? Because I just can't distinguish stated facts from my conclusions for a few things, haha. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600][spoiler]So perhaps the Toga also transcend the boundaries of being purely one thing or the other. No longer Haibane, neither are they human. [/spoiler] So why couldn't they also be able to pass through the wall? Like the town, the Toga are (in a sense) [spoiler][i]both[/i] literal and allegorical.[/spoiler] Tell me, does that make sense?[/color][/QUOTE]Honestly, it doesn't, but as I just mentioned, I think my lack of grasping this idea is due to me (subconciously) superimposing my preconcieved beliefs about the Toga. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I really feel that I need to watch this again. ^_^[/color][/QUOTE]Definately. I need to watch it more than you do, haha. Maybe we could watch it at the same time and jot down notes about pecularities we notice and see how they fill in any blanks and help to strengthen/weaken other things we've discussed. Anime "Book" Club, anyone? LOL[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 [center][size=4][b][u]More FGiWD? And Reki's personality.[/b][/u][/size][/center][QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Assumption: FGiWD? [SPOILER]relies on others, they fail her, and so she commits suicide[/SPOILER]. Extrapolation from assumption: Reki, [SPOILER]cynical from "feelings" of her past life, refuses to rely on others, therefore fails to accept help, and almost chooses suicide (aka missing her day of flight)[/SPOILER].[/font][/size][/color][/quote][color=#ff6600]Okay, so you're suggesting that FGiWD? is not [spoiler]merely a 'young' Haibane Reki, but Reki as a human child, pre-death. (You know, that's the whole story, but it still seems to freaky to write out.) I see why you're anxious to know about the wings, heh--this makes great sense to me, actually. It actually seems to 'fit' the feel of the series better than FGiWD? being merely a younger Haibane Reki. I don't think it actually matters that Reki didn't start out cynical and jealous--we can, like, totally work around that! There's no reason why her life in the town couldn't be a parallel to her human life. She doesn't need to [i]arrive[/i] angry, but she could easily go through the same steps of hurt/rejection/closing-off-ness in the town as she did outside it. Or outside the town as she did in it. Or whichever way you want to look at things.[/spoiler] [center][size=4][b][u]Back to the Toga.[/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Yeah, I think we're clear on who we are talking about when we talk about the Toga now. If all else fails, come up with another fun moniker like FGiWD? should Toga somehow become inappropriate. :p[/color][/size'][/font][/quote]Wait, we are? *looks around helplessly* I'm on a lab computer, I don't have my notes! Augh! [center][size=4][b][u]Crazy Radical Duality Ideas[/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]As I pointed out to you on AIM, this idea is [B][U]extremely[/U][/B] radical. Especially for me, since I've been using the [SPOILER]singular idea of Purgatory[/SPOILER] for the longest time. It's kind of funny, since it's clear to anyone who uses that angle that there's no way to address some of the most apparent and poignant mysteries of Haibane Renmei. In my defense, I tried thinking of other explanations, but then holes would appear in places where the [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] theory was solid.[/color][/size'][/font][/quote]Do you have examples? What other theories did you have, and why didn't they work? I haven't thought much about Kuu's voice, honestly. And like I said, I don't have an of my notes...so sorry about the briefness of this, heh. killing time and roses, Sara[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 [QUOTE=Lore][color=#ff6600][spoiler]It actually seems to 'fit' the feel of the series better than FGiWD? being merely a younger Haibane Reki. I don't think it actually matters that Reki didn't start out cynical and jealous--we can, like, totally work around that!... She doesn't need to [i]arrive[/i] angry, but she could easily go through the same steps of hurt/rejection/closing-off-ness in the town as she did outside it. Or outside the town as she did in it. Or whichever way you want to look at things.[/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Haha, those last two sentences made my head spin. That was a rather simple and logical solution... I guess I'm really in total disarray. *scratches head* I think being unsure about what's true and what I made up is making it hard to think straight, haha. Does it really [SPOILER]fit better with the feel of Haibane Renmei[/SPOILER]? Cool. ^^ [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I'm on a lab computer, I don't have my notes! Augh![/color][/QUOTE]Wait, you have notes? O_o Smart way to keep thoughts organized, I guess, but you really never made note (pun intended) of you doing that. Do you make notes for other animes you see (what few there are)? [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]Do you have examples? What other theories did you have, and why didn't they work?[/color][/QUOTE]Well, I'll just talk about the most solid of all of them. If you actually find it interesting, I'll share others, but really, after this one, they all go downhill. My vision of Gaihe was [SPOILER]that it was actually a pre-death world[/SPOILER]. What I mean is, [SPOILER]none of the Haibane have died yet, but are just a moments away from annihilation[/SPOILER]. So, you have a situation where [SPOILER]they are given a chance to appreciate the life they were going to throw away (or lose). Those that do understand what they should be doing, and start appreciating life, fly back to the real world for another shot. Since the Haibane do age at Gaihe, I thought up the idea that they are in a coma IRL and awaken when they have their Day of Flight (see: near-death experiences)[/SPOILER]. I say that because people usually [SPOILER]awaken from near-death experiences appreciating life more[/SPOILER]. Problems with this idea? Well, the biggest one: [SPOILER]the Haibane age[/SPOILER]. I know it sounds hypocritical, but it was a working idea until we see [SPOILER]Reki's cause of death. It just seems like coma is a really unlikely candidate for a person who was directly impaled by a train[/SPOILER] (sorry for putting it too bluntly - even I'm cringing a little, heh). In addition, we have two other problems: [SPOILER]the Day of Flight and the townspeople. To me, when I saw the Day of Flight, it doesn't look like they go past the walls, but instead, reach the skies. As for the townspeople, think about it: if that town is supposed to serve as simply a means to make one appreciate the life they have, what's up with the townspeople? For the Toga, you can have someone stuck in a coma for the rest of their life, but that leaves little room for the townspeople[/SPOILER]. Benefits of this idea? [SPOILER]You could consider that the Haibane don't fly up, but past the walls, so outside would be the real world. So, you can explain what's beyond the walls, and what is going on. In addition, it explains the Toga pretty soundly, heh. I actually still hold a little affinity for this idea, but the limbo idea using Purgatory is a bit more solid logically[/SPOILER]. Anyway, so that's my best shot at Gaihe. I think I have another one around here that uses a lot of Calculus for proofs and the like, so I know you'll want to hear that one next. ;) j/k What I like about your idea, though, is that it addresses the flaws of the [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] theory without introducing inconsistences or conflicts with it. To use the examples above, [SPOILER]the townspeople are just that: townspeople. This is a town, not just a Purgatory. To appreciate life, you need to appreciate others, and be around those who appreciate life already[/SPOILER]. I was too lazy to sort the spoilers from the nonspoiler text, so everything is black, heh.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] EDIT: w00t, you didn't reply to this yet! Awesome, haha. Anyway, I just wanted to add that, one of the biggest things that lured me into thinking of this idea was that the places where the Haibane reside are called [B]Abandoned[/B] Old Home and [SPOILER][B]Abandoned[/B] Factory. It gives off the vibe of a dead town inhabited by spirits. The Haibane are just transient beings? That's what my idea was trying to point towards[/SPOILER]. Also, another problem was that my [SPOILER]coma[/SPOILER] idea doesn't at all explain the charcoal feathers. How would you explain those with this idea?! Anyway, I'm in no rush for a reply. I know you are busy, and so am I. More importanly, I'm having a ball discussing this anime. I can't say I've enjoyed an anime discussion this much for months - nay, [B]at least[/B] a year. People can talk in the abstract sense for hours on end, but when you get down to physical examples, the tangible pieces of an anime that those broad concepts should apply to, few can genuinely continue the conversation. ^^ Oh, one last note (was just looking back at previous posts): now that you have actually seen Haibane Renmei, was your "feel" for the series accurate? I remember how strange that was for me, for someone to "know" HR and key in on a few important points. Weirdo. 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Sara Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 [color=#ff6600][center][size=4][b][u]Natuure of the Twon: What [i]is[/i] Glie, anyway?[/b][/u][/size][/center] That's interesting--[spoiler]the coma[/spoiler] idea. I know I jumped directly to the concept of [spoiler]Purgatory[/spoiler], but I haven't looked at it much, I guess. The [spoiler]coma[/spoiler] thing seems pretty well fleshed out, actually, while [spoiler]Purgatory, even dual purgatory/reality[/spoiler] is something that I haven't looked at explaining so much. I guess what I'm looking at here is a [i]why[/i] question: [spoiler][i]Why[/i] are they in Purgatory? [i]Why[/i] are there so relatively few of them (compared to townspeople)? [i]Why[/i] do we not see adult Haibane? (That is, "born" as adults. [/spoiler] I'm still uncomfortable with saying anything about the Toga.) It can't be that everyone in the [i]Haibane Renmei[/i] universe/world [spoiler]becomes Haibane when they die[/spoiler]. Dealing with numbers alone (never minding anything else), it's impossible. So what are the criteria? It seems like each of the Haibane [spoiler]arrives as a child[/spoiler]. At least, as far as we see. [spoiler]They are different ages--Kuu told Reki she was glad that Reki was older than her, because otherwise she wouldn't be in the group of older Haibane.[/spoiler] But they are still (as far as we can tell from what is shown) all [spoiler]children when they arrive, albeit children of different ages.[/spoiler] [center][size=4][b][u]Nature of Glie--Christian theories? [spoiler]Age of Accountability, Purgatory, and Penance[/spoiler][/b][/u][/size][/center] I know that some Christan churches (heh, and Robb did scold me for thinking that only Christian relions might be represented...but I'm not familiar with anything else, so I can't say anything about it) there's an idea called [spoiler]Age of Accountability.[/spoiler] The idea is basically this: [spoiler]There is an age at which people becomes accountable for their actions. What does that mean? [i]Before[/i] a child reaches that age (whatever it is), they may be a sinner, but they aren't "condemned" (or accountable) for their sin. Before that age, if they die (regardless of faith in Christ), they would go to heaven. It's honestly something somebody came up with to console parents of children who died young. (Although they do have biblical passages that they use as support.) [/spoiler] Anyway, I think we could draw a parallel to such an idea. Tell me what you think of the concept before I spend time developing it any further, eh? On another note, for the sake of the theory, this is a brief definition of [spoiler]Purgatory that I think roughly corresponds with our theory: [i]Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.[/i][/spoiler] I think the names of "Abandoned" living places may work with the rule that Haibane [spoiler]must only use things no longer used by humans[/spoiler] (which, working with the [spoiler]purgatory[/spoiler] concept, could be seen as a sort of [spoiler] penance/the working off as past sins[/spoiler]. Looking at what I have written above, it seems like the [spoiler]Age of Accountability[/spoiler] thing doesn't work with the [spoiler]Purgatory[/spoiler] thing, but it does in my mind. That idea that [spoiler]children who die before a certain age have a chance to live again/be purified/do penance/something[/spoiler] Ithink, it what the rough idea is. But again, just rambling, so tell me what you think, and if it works we can polish it up. And yeah, the feel of the series fits. ^_^ last, best hope of the free world, Sara[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 [quote name='Lore][color=#ff6600]That's interesting--[spoiler]the coma[/spoiler] idea. I know I jumped directly to the concept of [spoiler]Purgatory[/spoiler], but I haven't looked at it much, I guess. The [spoiler]coma[/spoiler] thing seems pretty well fleshed out, actually, while [spoiler]Purgatory, even dual purgatory/reality[/spoiler'] is something that I haven't looked at explaining so much.[/color][/quote][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue] Yeah, well, that was my initial idea, believe it or not. I didn't really think about the possibility of [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] until [SPOILER]they started talking about being sin-bound and the black wings. Being in a coma is no reason to be sin-bound[/SPOILER], haha. I guess you are right: the idea's not bad. I really never bothered to talk about (or reconsider even) that idea after I scrapped it for the current one. Wha? Are you for real? Then how did you come up with the idea if you didn't really think about explaining it? O_o [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I guess what I'm looking at here is a [i]why[/i] question: [spoiler][i]Why[/i] are they in Purgatory? [i]Why[/i] are there so relatively few of them (compared to townspeople)? [i]Why[/i] do we not see adult Haibane? (That is, "born" as adults. [/spoiler] I'm still uncomfortable with saying anything about the Toga.) ...Dealing with numbers alone (never minding anything else), it's impossible. So what are the criteria?[/color][/QUOTE]Interesting. I see where you are going with this. Maybe it's after a huge [SPOILER]human and post-human genocide[/SPOILER]! *dun dun dun* You know, like [SPOILER]God figured he ran out of space, so he decided to make room on his harddrive again[/SPOILER]. [/bad joke] Alright, alright, in all seriousness, that's a very good point, and there has to be some kind of criteria. Also, why are you uncomfortable about saying anything about the Toga? I thought we had them down. We had their number, and were prank-calling them day and night! *cough* [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]It seems like each of the Haibane [spoiler]arrives as a child[/spoiler]. At least, as far as we see. [spoiler]They are different ages--Kuu told Reki she was glad that Reki was older than her, because otherwise she wouldn't be in the group of older Haibane.[/spoiler] But they are still (as far as we can tell from what is shown) all [spoiler]children when they arrive, albeit children of different ages.[/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE]I thought you were making a general observation at first. I didn't think you were making a conclusion from it. But I have to ask, what about Rakka? O_o Also, even if we consider her (or I just don't remember well), I do think that [SPOILER]age is important[/SPOILER], such that [SPOILER]the committed sin must have something more frequent/familiar in children than in adults[/SPOILER] [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]...there's an idea called [spoiler]Age of Accountability.[/spoiler] The idea is basically this: ... ...Anyway, I think we could draw a parallel to such an idea. Tell me what you think of the concept before I spend time developing it any further, eh?[/color][/QUOTE]Boy, that puts a whole damper on the [SPOILER]Original Sin[/SPOILER] thing, doesn't it? I'm just wondering (honestly no relevance and just for my own edification): in most Christian Faiths, [SPOILER]babies that die can't go to Heaven[/SPOILER], right? I think this AoA (I can do abbreviations too :p) is an interesting idea. What's your opinion about it? I mean, you say that it's to [SPOILER]console parents who have lost children[/SPOILER], so I'm assuming you don't agree with the idea. (again, all irrelevant questions, just for my edification) But as far as Haibane Renmei is concerned, I'm very intrigued. Do go on about this concept. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]On another note, for the sake of the theory, this is a brief definition of [spoiler]Purgatory that I think roughly corresponds with our theory: [i]Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.[/i][/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE] *nods approvingly* I'm just a little unclear about one aspect: what does the definition mean when it says "[SPOILER]departing this life [U]in God's grace[/U][/SPOILER]"? Does that part work with or against the AoA thing? [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]I think the names of "Abandoned" living places may work with the rule that Haibane [spoiler]must only use things no longer used by humans[/spoiler] (which, working with the [spoiler]purgatory[/spoiler] concept, could be seen as a sort of [spoiler] penance/the working off as past sins[/spoiler].[/color][/QUOTE] Oh right... that makes sense, so that [SPOILER]even the houses have been used, so the Haibane aren't breaking that rule[/SPOILER]. Very good point. But as for your explanation for that [SPOILER]rule[/SPOILER], I don't know. Why would it be vital that they ONLY [SPOILER]use things that have been used by humans[/SPOILER]? Could you kind of build on what you said already, because I'm kind of getting what you are saying, but not quite. You know, bring more of those Christian examples and stuff. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]Looking at what I have written above, it seems like the [spoiler]Age of Accountability[/spoiler] thing doesn't work with the [spoiler]Purgatory[/spoiler] thing, but it does in my mind. That idea that [spoiler]children who die before a certain age have a chance to live again/be purified/do penance/something[/spoiler] I think, it what the rough idea is. But again, just rambling, so tell me what you think, and if it works we can polish it up.[/color][/QUOTE]No-no, it's a very nice idea. You just kind of threw everything at me at once, so I'm a little overwhelmed, since this is an idea drawn from multiple angles. I mean, first you talk about AoA, and then define [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER], and then bring up what apparently has been bothering you the most (i.e., [SPOILER]Why the Haibane are Haibane and others aren't, and the numbers[/SPOILER]). It was well-written, though, since I was imagining what you were arriving at as you introduced the pieces of your puzzle. Now, I could be wrong, since I too asked if AoA conflicts or agrees with the [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] idea, but I don't think it matters. That is, AoA [SPOILER]is your explanation for why the Haibane are so young when they enter: the criteria to become a Haibane[/SPOILER]. On the other hand, [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] explains the town as a whole. So, it's like, one's for the gate, the other is for what's past the gates. *looks back* This was a post that really couldn't be addressed piece-wise. Ah well, you have a sharp mind: you can [U]integrate it[/U] all in your head. :p[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] OT: This is my first time seeing the font I use on a different computer. I thought something died in the monitor. Is it unsightly on your screen too? Although my banner and avi look so fine - better than they do on my monitor. *vanity, feels wings growing* Also, your font wasn't always orange... I guess I was fooled because of your myO. (Also, excuse the eccentricity of this post: I'm around chemicals right now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 [center][size=4][b][u]More on Christian Theories[/b][/u][/size][/center] [QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Wha? Are you for real? Then how did you come up with the idea if you didn't really think about explaining it? O_o Interesting. I see where you are going with this. Maybe it's after a huge [SPOILER]human and post-human genocide[/SPOILER]! *dun dun dun* You know, like [SPOILER]God figured he ran out of space, so he decided to make room on his harddrive again[/SPOILER]. [/bad joke][color][/size][/quote][color=#ff6600]Bad joke aside, I still have no idea what you meant. // [quote name='Azure][color=blue']I thought you were making a general observation at first. I didn't think you were making a conclusion from it. But I have to ask, what about Rakka? O_o[/color][/quote]Whoops! When I wrote "Reki" there, it should have read "Rakka." Now, what about her? Rakka was older than Kuu, but still a kid, really. So under this theory, she would have still be under the AoA when [spoiler]she died.[/spoiler]. I'm not sure what you're asking for. (And...I [i]was[/i] making a general observation at first. I just sorta kept going with it, heh.) [quote=Azure][color=blue] Boy, that puts a whole damper on the [SPOILER]Original Sin[/SPOILER] thing, doesn't it? I'm just wondering (honestly no relevance and just for my own edification): in most Christian Faiths, [SPOILER]babies that die can't go to Heaven[/SPOILER], right? I think this AoA (I can do abbreviations too :p) is an interesting idea. What's your opinion about it? I mean, you say that it's to [SPOILER]console parents who have lost children[/SPOILER], so I'm assuming you don't agree with the idea. (again, all irrelevant questions, just for my edification)[/color][/quote]*massages temples* I don't really know. Catch me on AIM some time. [quote name='Azure][color=blue]what does the definition mean when it says "[SPOILER]departing this life [U]in God's grace[/U][/SPOILER']"? Does that part work with or against the AoA thing?[/color][/quote][spoiler]I don't know why I'm spoilering this... I think that refers to having faith in Christ. The idea is that Purgatory is for Christians who still have sin "debt" to work off. [/spoiler] At least, that's what I was taught...It isn't something my church believes in, so I may be misinformed. Obviously in Haibane Renmei, we aren't dealing with a [spoiler]Christian[/spoiler] environment in the firt place. But as far as parallels go, I don't think anything is disrupted too much. (As we haven't worked much out yet anyway. :p) [center][size=4][b][u]Christian Theories: On Restrictions Placed on the Haibane[/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='Azure][color=blue]But as for your explanation for that [SPOILER](used stuff) rule[/SPOILER], I don't know. Why would it be vital that they ONLY [SPOILER]use things that have been used by humans[/SPOILER']? Could you kind of build on what you said already, because I'm kind of getting what you are saying, but not quite. You know, bring more of those Christian examples and stuff.[/color][/quote]It's not relevant in and of itself, but [i]as a restriction placed on the Haibane[/i], it's interesting. [spoiler]Purgatory is a "place" (or state...or...something) between life and some 'after' life, where sins from life #1 are worked off, in order to be pure enough to move on.[/spoiler] Now, considering the town as a type of [spoiler]purgatory[/spoiler], we come to the conclusion that the Haibane, for some reason, have [spoiler]some sin to work off, or some other obstacle that prevents them from...whatever normally happens after death.[/spoiler] How do they do this? Let's look at how the Haibane live:[spoiler]They must work. (In order to become "fully fledged" Haibane. Ha ha, that gets me every time.) They cannot use money. They may only wear things that have been used by humans.[/spoiler] These things are all (as someone, I don't remember who, says) [spoiler]part of the arrangement (between whom and whom else? Who made these rules?) that allow the Haibane to live there.[/spoiler] Now, [i]why?[/i] Why would all these restrictions be placed on them? What have they done? They arrive as Haibane and learn, despite the fact that everyone treats them kindly, that they practically have [spoiler]no rights[/spoiler]. Now, there's [i]got[/i] to be a reason for this. It's not discrimination by the townspeople--as I said, they have no ill will toward the Haibane. But there's this [spoiler]"arrangement."[/spoiler] I think (only from following all our previous assumptions on the matter, mind) that it's reasonable to conclude that the Haibane's way of life in the town allows them to [spoiler]pay off whatever debt they have[/spoiler]. [center][size=4][b][u]Nature of Haibane and The Sin-Bound.[/b][/u][/size][/center] Now, we look at things again. And this is all musing at this point, I don't have any more theories at the moment. [spoiler][i]What debt[/i] are they paying off?[/spoiler] We see that they each arrive [spoiler]as children. What sins do children have?[/spoiler] Important point: [spoiler][i]Not all Haibane are sin-bound.[/i][/spoiler] In fact, it seems quite rare. So [i]what makes a Haibane[/i] [spoiler]sin-bound[/spoiler]? We have a good idea with Reki, but what about Rakka? Okay. My thoughts (which I believe you have heard before) on the topic of [spoiler]sin-bound Haibane[/spoiler]: [spoiler]It involves guilt. My original thought (which unfortunately was shattered *shakes fist at Official*) was that Haibane unable to forgive themselves became sin-bound. However, the Official flatly said that you cannot forgive yourself, you must receive forgiveness. This is tentative: Reki, for some reason (a carry over from her dream) has always felt a deep sense of guilt. She cannot remember her dream, and she is supposed to. This leads to further problems--her whole saga. She feels guilty, and seeking relief from that, gets into more and more trouble, burying herself under more and more guilt. Rakka also becomes sin-bound. When does this happen? After Kuu leaves. She's hearbroken about the loss of her friend, first of all. And (this is the bit where I start getting all philosophical) She remembers thinking how she thought [i]no one would miss her if she were gone.[/i] (Am I correct in thinking this is a throwback/piece of memory from her former life?) Experiencing her own sorrow at the loss of someone dear, she now realizes that this was very wrong (and even selfish) for her to think. She realizes that she had hurt someone, and feels guilty. (This is also why I originally thought Rakka, too, had committed suicide.) This is the point when her wings begin turning black.[/spoiler] Aaaaand...I have more to say, but I'm nearly going to be late to class as it is, so further ramblings shall have to wait. integrate THIS, Sara[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 [quote name='Lore][color=#ff6600']Bad joke aside, I still have no idea what you meant.[/color][/quote][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Bleh, that's what I get for joking, haha. In fact, reading it back, I see how confusing it is. Just skip to the next paragraph after "Interesting. I see where you are going with this." and it'll make more sense. I was just answering your rhetorical(-ish?) questions with a joke, but I managed to make it sound like that's where I thought you were going with your idea. *cough* Moving on... [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]Whoops! When I wrote "Reki" there, it should have read "Rakka." ... I'm not sure what you're asking for. [/color][/QUOTE]No, that was pretty much it. You hit the nail on the head. That's all I was asking about. Haha, I was wondering why you kept bringing up Reki since it's obvious how young she was when she first arrived. So anyway, I was just worried about how the AoA thing was still possible since we had Rakka to consider, but I see that you already had that in mind (Reki, Rakka, it's all good). [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]*massages temples* I don't really know. Catch me on AIM some time.[/color][/QUOTE]Yeah, sorry for pestering you so much with my inquiries on Christianity. It's just that I can't seem to ask these questions to anyone else without a hostile response, as if my innocent questions are a guise for attacking the religion. So, if you don't mind, I intend to bother you anytime I have a Christian thought, and I have already learned (and unlearned) a few things from you. [QUOTE][color=#ff6600][spoiler]... I think that refers to having faith in Christ. The idea is that Purgatory is for Christians who still have sin "debt" to work off. [/spoiler] Obviously in Haibane Renmei, we aren't dealing with a [spoiler]Christian[/spoiler] environment in the firt place...[/color][/QUOTE] Oh, you are spoilering it for a good reason, haha. Anyway, I see... I'm not sure why you turn the tables around in the following paragraph, though. Why isn't it a [SPOILER]Christian[/SPOILER] environment? Why it can't be considered as such? [QUOTE](Spoilerific Paragraphs, Containing a Good Deal of Coherent Material)...[/QUOTE]Alright then. That addresses my request for further elaboration, haha. That was quite interesting. Thanks for putting it into perspective. While I easily noticed the townspeople's hospitality, I don't think I ever saw it as anything relevant. It's good that you picked up on that, as I do see how it pertains to the [SPOILER]Purgatory[/SPOILER] theory. In fact, your [SPOILER]dual-nature[/SPOILER] corollary is strongly supported by it if you think about it (or you already did think about it, since you were the one to bring the interactions between the townspeople and the Haibane up). [QUOTE](Series of Nifty Rhetorical Questions Leading to a Good Point)...[color=#ff6600] Okay. My thoughts (which I believe you have heard before) on the topic of [spoiler]sin-bound Haibane[/spoiler]: [spoiler]It involves guilt. My original thought (which unfortunately was shattered *shakes fist at Official*) was that Haibane unable to forgive themselves became sin-bound. However, the Official flatly said that you cannot forgive yourself, you must receive forgiveness.[/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE]Haha, that's quite funny. Yeah, this was the first thing I asked you about relating to Christianity, if you remember. Rather, whether or not some kind of similar concept existed IN Christianity. Anyway, continuing to quote you... [QUOTE][color=#ff6600][spoiler]Rakka also becomes sin-bound. When does this happen? After Kuu leaves. She's hearbroken about the loss of her friend, first of all. And (this is the bit where I start getting all philosophical) She remembers thinking how she thought [i]no one would miss her if she were gone.[/i] (Am I correct in thinking this is a throwback/piece of memory from her former life?) Experiencing her own sorrow at the loss of someone dear, she now realizes that this was very wrong (and even selfish) for her to think. She realizes that she had hurt someone, and feels guilty. (This is also why I originally thought Rakka, too, had committed suicide.) This is the point when her wings begin turning black.[/spoiler][/color][/QUOTE] Right, right. This is great stuff right here, and I think, at least for Reki and Rakka, this is the key point of it all. I do believe I was asking you about the crows, haha. But more importantly, I really enjoyed the level at which they basically [U]proved[/U] that [SPOILER]killing yourself is a selfish act[/SPOILER] (I enjoyed emotionally, mind you, not happily enjoyed). And yeah, without a doubt, [SPOILER]that was a fragment of her former life[/SPOILER], unless you do have a shred of doubt (if so, tell me why! - more tangents and ideas abound, haha). Most importantly, you realize this topic brings a very important matter to the table (of course you did, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up), one that also supports the [SPOILER]dual-nature[/SPOILER] concept. Again, what about the crow? [SPOILER]Rakka saw it as someone from her past life trying to bring her back (and trying to stop/save her at the beginning). Also, the crow was responsible for Rakka's... transcendance through the black wings[/SPOILER]. With those two points, I think it's a valid thought that [SPOILER]the crow has some relationship to the real world. So, people who are embodied by the crow, or have some link to the people alive[/SPOILER], easily makes a valid argument for your proposal. On last thought: [SPOILER]those that the crows are related to? Are they people who are still living, or people who have died and moved on[/SPOILER]? Huh, huh? I'm very interested where you can take these questions, haha (don't feel compelled to if you don't want to or something). [QUOTE][color=#ff6600]Aaaaand...I have more to say, but I'm nearly going to be late to class as it is, so further ramblings shall have to wait.[/color][/QUOTE] O_o; I never thought I'd be saying something like this, but you have an over-active mind. That was a lot of stuff for me to take in at one time already, and you had more to say. Insane.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] Sorry for making you wait so long (in internet time, four days is quite a long time). :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 [color=#ff6600][center][size=4][b][u]All About CROWS!!! [/b][/u][/size][/center] Okay, let's see. I've really lost my train of thought, so...Hm. Crows. The crows are another thing I've sort of avoided thinking about, to be honest. I do feel that I need to watch the series again, maybe even just paying specific attention to references to some of the things we've been talking about. Augh, I wish I had the dvds, heh. [center][size=4][b][u]Crows: The Facts.[/b][/u][/size][/center] Hm. Alright: the facts (?) Crows are the only things [spoiler]allowed to pass freely over the walls.[/spoiler] Legend has it that [spoiler]they bring the Haibane things that were forgotten on the other side. Memories?[/spoiler] Something like that? Do you remember--I don't, what the wording actually was. Kana always [spoiler]sent the crows flying. She called them lazy scavengers, or something like that. However, she later said that she feels sorry for the. If they become lazy and dependant on food insidde the town, they'll never leave again.[/spoiler] Kuu [spoiler]liked the crows. [/spoiler] I don't remember anything she said about them. Rakka always [spoiler]felt a connection with the crows--or at least, one of them. It's hard to tell whether the connection was friendship or fear[/spoiler]--I remember seeing both expressions on her face at different times. There was a crow[spoiler] in Rakka's dream. It tried to save her from falling. She knew it couldn't help her, but thanked it. [/spoiler] I remember thinking that Rakka[spoiler] could not remember that part of her dream until the event in the well: She follows crows to the woods, and falls down the well. There, she finds the skeleton of a crow. She relives her cocoon dream. She receives forgiveness. She emerges guilt/sin-free.[/spoiler] Is it true that she could not remember it earlier? If so, this is another parallel between the two [spoiler]sin-bound Haibane[/spoiler] that we know of. ------- [center][size=4][b][u]Crows: The Theories.[/b][/u][/size][/center] As for theories...I don't have (m)any about the crows. They were one of the things I didn't understand much at all. I think it's obvious that they [i]do[/i] [spoiler]have some connection to the real world[/spoiler], but I don't know exactly what it is. [spoiler]It alsmost seems as though they are a sort of bidge arcross the wall---between the town and the Haibane's past lives.[/spoiler] They're seen as scavengers by most of the town, but Kuu (and later, Rakka) see things diferently. Actually, interesting--the crows and the Haibane [spoiler]have a couple things in common: they are 'scavengers' and have to make do with what others have already finished with. They both cross over the wall (albeit the Haibane's experiences are very narrow, almost restricted). [/spoiler] I had something else, too, but I don't remember it. But, yeah. I did some quick research on crows in mythology. The belief that they're intelligent is pretty much universal (because, well, they are.) They're scavengers/carrion eaters, so there's some symbolism with death. In Haibane Renmei, at least, the idea that they can fly [spoiler](unlike the Haibane, who even have wings, but can only fly [i]once[/i], on the DoF) carries some overtones of...I don't know, freedom or something.[/spoiler] [center][size=4][b][u]Crows: The Not Exactly Credible, But Certainly A Good Jumping Point In The Search For More Information Webpage.[/b][/u][/size][/center] [url=http://www.home.earthlink.net/~ravens.eye/id76.html]This site[/url] isn't exactly the most coherent piece of literature I've ever seen, but it touches on a lot of differen things that are actually correct (if you go through the bother of spelling the names correctly and looking them up.) So that's really interesting. Sorry about all the typos, my keyboard's been hiccoughing recently. :p heck yes I did, Sara[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Hayden Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Does anyone have any info on this show? I know its about Angel like creatures or something and i'm thinking about getting it. i just wanna know if it has any action or what? and if the animation is good and all. And does anyone know what year it was made? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 [QUOTE=Dark Hayden]Does anyone have any info on this show? I know its about Angel like creatures or something and i'm thinking about getting it. i just wanna know if it has any action or what? and if the animation is good and all. And does anyone know what year it was made? thanks[/QUOTE][color=indigo]There's no action. At all. If you like faintly creepy shows with religious symbolic overtones and fodder for thousands of interpretation theories, though, this is for you. If not...I'd look to hit up something else. The animation is beautiful. It's really more a 'slice of life' show than one that actually tells a story. The first several episodes are just a new Haibane (the angel-like creature) learning about her environment and getting to know people. That's about a third of the show. The rest raises a lot of questions, but very few of them are actually answered. It was made fairly recently. I'm not sure exactly when, but I'm sure a quick look on Google would help you out.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimmsicle Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I have absolutely no idea where to start so I'll just go back to the beginning of this thread and work my way forwards ^_^; And this is going to be extremely rocky. I first wrote a lot in the morning, before having anything to eat, and then some when I had marathoned it >> (Dunno if it matters, but I saw it with the Japanese voice cast.) [spoiler]Rakka's wings emerging from her back[/spoiler] was absolutely beautiful to see, as wacky as that might sound. Being in the cocoon was safe (unless you had a disturbing dream), breaking out of it wasn't traumatic and when they, later on, interact with the townspeople ... it's all very smooth sailing. The Haibane get pretty much everything served to them (in a manner of speaking) but the wings, one of two things to separate them from the townspeople, is the only thing that hurts to get. I just found that interesting for some reason. Ooo, they aren't [I]born [/I]with [spoiler]the halo, nor do they acquire it like they do their wings. It's [B]made [/B]and is given to them to distinguish them from the townspeople.[/spoiler] If it weren't for the fact that the Haibane is treated so good, I could draw a reference to the Nazi era >>; A lot of effort is made to single them out and yet they're still allowed into the society and treated almost as equals. (I can't recall a single incident where being Haibane resulted in nasty remarks or better than average treatment.) I absolutely love the music, it's perfect for this anime. The tune that's played while you're looking at the DVD menu sort of sets the mood. Not happy-happy but not depressing. Just an honest glimpse of how the entire story feels like when you get to the end. Oh yes, the [spoiler]Sin-Bound[/spoiler] issue. It's true that the Communicator said you can't forgive yourself, but I found that to be more of a general statement than a rule. I mean, if you feel you've committed a wrong and caused pain, it's virtually impossible to forgive yourself. Getting someone else's forgiveness helps you to overcome the guilt but only if you're willing to accept it and move on. At least that's my opinion. [spoiler]Rakka[/spoiler] could forgive herself first and foremost because of the help from the bird, but also because she accepted her guilt and being forgiven. I could almost argue that it's more of accepting your sin and wanting to do good from there on in, than it is about being forgiven for it. Although accepting the sin is basically forgiving yourself, so I'm just going in circles right now, lol. It was just something that I wanted to touch on as I read through the thread. [B]Prepare yourself for a very confusing paragraph :animeswea [/B] As for Reki and her younger self (whom I'm [strike]almost[/strike] absolutely positive [I]doesn't[/I] have wings) ? I never viewed her as being mean, so when she suddenly went all meany on Rakka, it was important to have the younger version of her appearing, to sort of show how her person had transgressed into whom she was now. And it was at the same time her inner voice, sort of like a .. flashback/reflection of her past self. It's very much how Reki is responding to the situation as it plays out before her [I]again[/I], in the critical moment of [spoiler]her Flight. Young Reki reflects how it was back when Reki was standing on that railroad track and how she lost hope, just as she does when she can't reach out for Rakka (turning from pure white into mud and dissolving) and it helps to really visualize how lost Reki is in her inability (and at the same time yearning state) to want to trust someone. To actually see a mirror of yourself, as it may be, and look at yourself crumbling, heightens the nightmare Reki's finding herself in. Then of course she is where she was before being born into Haibane ? standing at the railroad track, having lost hope but still wanting someone to tear her away from there BUT/AND ... she's in her [I]adult [/I]form. The girl in dress (younger Reki, PAST Reki) is the one holding Rakka back, which shows that Reki isn't in the exact same place anymore. If she truly had given up, it would've been [I]young [/I]Reki standing there (and possibly completely ignoring Rakka's attempt to get her out of the way) but now it's her [I]past [/I]self holding Rakka back. [/spoiler] Ablah, this is such an important point and it feels like I'm messing it up, lol. Reki has found forgiveness but she had to go back to that place she was at before coming Haibane [spoiler](the railroad track)[/spoiler] to challenge herself to make things differently, to truly be able to accept being forgiven. It's easy to welcome the help when it's offered to you, but truly difficult to call out for it. To beg for it. Ah, there we go ^_^; And, isn't the name of the town Glie? I need to check that >> (Yep, it's Glie.) Btw, while in the subject of Reki and her buddy boy Hyohko ? [spoiler]she was already in a state of feeling abandoned after Kuramori left, so when their punishment for trying to get over the wall meant being separated from each other it just cemented her belief that anyone she trusted and cared for would be taken away or leave her behind. I'd say he definitely has an impact on her further 'fall' into the nightmare. She felt responsible for Kuramori's leaving (because she had been gathering herbs for Reki) and the same went for Hyohko (because he tried to get her over the wall and was injured/taken away from her) and so her sin sort of grew all the time (especially after Kuu left and when Rakka was no longer Sin-Bound) - until she couldn't see any repentance for it.[/spoiler] She wanted to but was afraid to until the very end. Hrm, going in circles again *moves on* Oh yes, remember the story about Nemu and the book she tried to restore? ?The beginning of the world?. Anyway, it made me think that Haibane could be[spoiler] humans that died or is simply just wavering between giving up or fighting and Glie is their chance to make up their mind. They either go back to their human life, go to heaven or ... become Toga? It'd make even more sense that the Toga aren't allowed to speak then, because someone might recognize them and thusly the whole mystery of being Haibane, and what happens after Day of Flight, is disrupted.[/spoiler] Any other suggestions? Let me go through some of the Haibane's: [B]Reki [/B][spoiler]definitely died (and I think her parents died before her, which would fit in with her sensibility of being abandoned)[/spoiler], but [B]Rakka[/B]'s case is a bit iffy. She just said she wanted to [spoiler]disappear[/spoiler] and that doesn't automatically mean she [spoiler]killed herself/died[/spoiler]. *Look further down to my talking about the crows and you'll get another point there. [B]Nemu [/B]might be[spoiler] in a coma[/spoiler]. It's possible, with all that sleeping :p I'm having troubles fitting in [B]Hikari [/B](who had a very pleasant dream) and [B]Kana [/B](hers was as carefree as Kana herself) though. Are they sort of just in between having[spoiler] died and going to heaven[/spoiler], or something? Help me out here, lol. The crows .... hm, Kuu and Kana did a good job in showing what kind of relevance they have to the story. Basically I see them as a reflection of the Haibane and also how they relate to the town, their place in that world/the one beyond. [spoiler]In order to not become lazy scavengers, the Haibane work for what they receive. And while not being allowed to come and go as they please like the birds, if we go on the line of Haibane leaving becoming Toga, they do get to leave and sort of come back.[/spoiler] They also serve as a guide for Rakka to remember her dream, and to freak her out since they remind her of[spoiler] Kuu's leaving [/spoiler](the crow got her to be attentive of the forest after all). Later on they scare her because [spoiler]their black wings make her think of [I]her [/I]wings becoming ?stained?.[/Spoiler] If memory serves me correctly, they're not a prominent feature after Rakka [spoiler]falls into the well? * Hm, could it be that the bird [in the well] represents someone who died protecting her? [/spoiler] I have no idea how to wrap this up, seeing as it's all over the place, but how about [spoiler]the Communicator being God? You know, because his cane has wings and a full halo (no hole in the middle) on top of it? He's the only one allowed to address the Toga and has knowledge about the Haibane's true names (he gave Reki her ?true? name, which spurred the dream to become fully visible for her ... which was pretty much the trigger for her flipping out. Would she have flipped if she hadn't remembered the dream fully?)[/spoiler] Uhm, I did read through the whole thread but after trying to re-connect with the ideas you two (and Dagger) had gone over, it became easier to just jot down my thoughts and leave you to nit-pick them >>;; And if it sounds like what I'm saying is absolute and final, then sorry. These are only thoughts I'm tossing out and I fully accept (ahahaha) that I could be wrong/way off course ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 [center][size=4][b][u]Nazis and Halos[/b][/u][/size][/center] [quote name='Mimmi][spoiler]Ooo, they aren't [I]born [/I]with the halo, nor do they acquire it like they do their wings. It's [B]made [/B']and is given to them to distinguish them from the townspeople. If it weren't for the fact that the Haibane is treated so good, I could draw a reference to the Nazi era >>; A lot of effort is made to single them out and yet they're still allowed into the society and treated almost as equals. [/spoiler][/quote][color=indigo]Ooh, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before. In fact, the [spoiler]halo is pretty much the [i]only[/i] thing they receive new.[/spoiler] Huh. [center][size=4][b][u]Sin Bound, and FGiWD?[/b][/u][/size][/center] [quote name='Mimmi][spoiler']Oh yes, the Sin-Bound issue. It's true that the Communicator said you can't forgive yourself, but I found that to be more of a general statement than a rule. I mean, if you feel you've committed a wrong and caused pain, it's virtually impossible to forgive yourself. Getting someone else's forgiveness helps you to overcome the guilt but only if you're willing to accept it and move on. At least that's my opinion. Rakka could forgive herself first and foremost because of the help from the bird, but also because she accepted her guilt and being forgiven. I could almost argue that it's more of accepting your sin and wanting to do good from there on in, than it is about being forgiven for it. [/spoiler][/quote]So more of an "impossibility" than a "rule," huh? Yeah, that makes sense. [quote name='Mimmi][spoiler]As for Reki and her younger self (whom I'm [strike]almost[/strike] absolutely positive [I]doesn't[/I'] have wings) ? [/quote]Did you catch that, Azure? FGiWD [b]doesn't[/b] [spoiler]have wings[/spoiler]. ^_^ [quote=Mimmi][spoiler][on the scene at the railroad] ...now it's her [I]past [/I]self holding Rakka back. Reki has found forgiveness but she had to go back to that place she was at before coming Haibane(the railroad track) to challenge herself to make things differently, to truly be able to accept being forgiven. It's easy to welcome the help when it's offered to you, but truly difficult to call out for it. To beg for it. Ah, there we go ^_^;[/spoiler][/quote]*smiles* Beautiful! [center][size=4][b][u]Nature of Haibane and Toga [/b][/u][/size][/center][quote name='Mimmi][spoiler']Oh yes, remember the story about Nemu and the book she tried to restore? ?The beginning of the world?. Anyway, it made me think that Haibane could be humans that died or is simply just wavering between giving up or fighting and Glie is their chance to make up their mind. They either go back to their human life, go to heaven or ... become Toga? It'd make even more sense that the Toga aren't allowed to speak then, because someone might recognize them and thusly the whole mystery of being Haibane, and what happens after Day of Flight, is disrupted. Any other suggestions?[/spoiler][/quote]Augh, more stuff about those darn [spoiler]Toga![/spoiler]. Yeah, I do think that [spoiler]Haibane who miss their Day of Flight[/spoiler] become Toga. [/spoiler] [center][size=4][b][u]Individual Haibane--Thoughts and Theories[/b][/u][/size][/center][quote][spoiler][B]Reki [/B]definitely died (and I think her parents died before her, which would fit in with her sensibility of being abandoned), but [B]Rakka[/B]'s case is a bit iffy. She just said she wanted to disappear and that doesn't automatically mean she killed herself/died. *Look further down to my talking about the crows and you'll get another point there. [B]Nemu [/B]might be in a coma. It's possible, with all that sleeping :p I'm having troubles fitting in [B]Hikari [/B](who had a very pleasant dream) and [B]Kana [/B](hers was as carefree as Kana herself) though. Are they sort of just in between having died and going to heaven, or something? Help me out here, lol.[/spoiler][/quote]This seems as good a point as any to talk aboout the dreams and names again. I don't know if I've brought it up in the thread before, although Azure and I have chatted about it. [center][size=4][b][u]Haibane NAMES. Ooh.[/b][/u][/size][/center] The Haibane's names (with the exception of the Young Feathers, who are flaunting tradition, or some such thing) are taken from their [spoiler]cocoon dreams[/spoiler]. One theory: [spoiler]The cocoon dreams show/represent how the Haibane "died." (Assuming they did, that's a debate in and of itself.)[/spoiler] [b]Rakka[/b]: [spoiler]"Falling." Falling from a height. This is usually a form of death associated with suicide. Fact: Rakka felt that no one loved her (and later felt guilty when she realised this had been untrue. However, unlike Reki, she is not upset or frightened in her dream. She says she "felt like someone was protecting her." Originally, I thought this meant the crow that was with her, but she later says it was Reki. Is it possible that Reki's love/hope for Rakka would overcome any upset or fear she would feel at her death? Second name: "Involved Nut." (Aww... :))[/spoiler] [b]Reki[/b]: [spoiler]"Pebble." Now, Reki obviously wasn't 'Pebbled' to death, heh. However, she had problems because she could not remember her dream (the only dream we know of that was unpleasant). [i]Why[/i] couldn't she remember it? The Official gave her her name after hearing what she did remember. Second Name: "The one who was run over and torn apart." YIKES! Now, this is really interesting to me. It seems like Reki's names are [i]reversed.[/i] The name that [i]really[/i] had to do with her dream was not the one she was first given. Instead, her [i]first[/i] name was the one that had to do with her personality. Whoa.[/spoiler] [b]Kuu[/b]: [spoiler]"Floating," right? Now, I can't for the life of me figure out what kind of death would involve floating in the sky. I don't know what Kuu's other name was. Do they tell us?[/spoiler] [b]Kana[/b]: [spoiler]I don't remember exactly what her name meant. River fish, maybe? But her dream had to do with swimming in a river. If dreams reflect death, than Kana drowned. [b]Nemu[/b]: [spoiler]"Sleeping," or something close to it. Interesting--they make a point of saying often that she is [i]always[/i] sleeping. This actually lends itself to Mimmi's point on how dreams reflect the [b]current personality[/b] of the Haibane. Anyway, possible-death wise: coma, or simply dying in her sleep.[/spoiler] [b]Hikari[/b]: [spoiler]"Light." Now, the only death I can think of that would involve being surrounded by 'light' would be fire. Which...augh. *shudders* However, again, she does have a very "light" personality.[/spoiler] Other Haibane: [spoiler]Midori: "Green." (Got me.) Kuramori: "Dark Forest." Hyohko: Don't really know on this one. "Hy?zan" means iceberg, though, and I've seen his name translated as meaning "icy lake."[/spoiler] Ah, anyway. That's about enough for me. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimmsicle Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 The fact that Reki wasn't given [spoiler]her true name[/spoiler] until the very end must be important. Maybe it was done that way to enable her to change things? For some reason I think that's the case. Because if she'd known about[spoiler] her true name[/spoiler] from the very beginning ... *gestures* Know what I'm saying? Something else that struck me while watching the show again with my sister had to do with Rakka and Kuu but I can't for the life of me remember what exactly. But basically it was something to do with the fact that [spoiler]Kuu left once she'd helped Rakka find her way in Glie/Old Home. And the fact that Rakka was crying on the Field of Wind (or whatever it was called) and then the crow lead her to the well[/spoiler].... I just get the feeling that they're very closely connected even if I can't explain how *frustrated sigh* While on the subject of Kuu - haha, if she and Rakka are as closely connected as my brain wants me to think, then maybe[spoiler] she died of heartbreak or some kind of illness after Rakka died[/spoiler]? Wild guess, ignore that. And no, her[spoiler] true name[/spoiler] was never mentioned. And it makes perfect sense that the [spoiler]crow in Rakkas cocoon dream[/spoiler] represents Reki, since Reki is [spoiler]Sin-Bound and has black wings (well, they're stained black anyway)[/spoiler]. That only just now struck me, haha. :animeshy: As for Hikari - O.o Your idea of her really makes me shudder, but it does make sense. A [spoiler]fire[/spoiler] or some kind of[spoiler] explosion [/spoiler]could be how [spoiler]she died[/spoiler]. [SIZE=1]PS: Azure, you're allowed to post now ;p[/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 [center][size=4][b][u]Dreams--Good or Bad?[/b][/u][/size][/center] [quote name='Mimmi]As for Hikari - O.o Your idea of her really makes me shudder, but it does make sense. A [spoiler]fire[/spoiler] or some kind of[spoiler] explosion [/spoiler]could be how [spoiler]she died[/spoiler'].[/quote][color=indigo]Yeah. I keep coming back to this theory, because I'm convinced it somehow makes sense. But every time, I'm caught of guard--[i]only Reki[/i] had a "[spoiler]bad dream.[/spoiler]" If [spoiler]dreams reflect death,[/spoiler] you'd think more people would be upset by them! I suppose one explanation could be something I kinda referenced--[spoiler]death is frightening, dreams are frightening[/spoiler]. HOWEVER, we can assume that [spoiler]everyone had people "taking care" of them while they were in their cocoon.[/spoiler] Everyone [i]except[/i] [spoiler]Reki.[/spoiler] She [spoiler]was found [i]after[/i] she, uh, "hatched." No one was there for her when she was in her cocoon, when she was dreaming. The protecting presence Rakka mentions (when she realises later it was Reki, caring for her)? Reki didn't have that.[/spoiler] So: [spoiler]fear is inherent, but can be negated by love. [/spoiler][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satan665 Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 This is definitely one of my favorite animes. I bought the collection on the cheap from Hong Kong. It truly does go by very slowly, the pacing is pretty non-traditional for anime. I just thought that is was very touching and cute. There is a lot of character development, and if you stick through it you are rewarded greatly. If you can find a place to rent the discs its probably a safer move since its surely not for everyone. I'd say the second half of the series is some of the best anime I've seen. Its kind of like an art-house film but definitely give it a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 [COLOR=blue]Ok, blame Baron's experimental myO for crashing my browser and thereby destroying what I had typed up over the weekend. This post is just going to be a really watered down version of the original: only the essentials, and everything else will be elaborated when necessary. So... [B][U]Crows (haha, I liked how you started that)[/U][/B] Everything you mentioned is correct to my knowledge, except for Rakka [SPOILER]not remembering parts of her dream[/SPOILER]. This is just speculation, but it always felt like we felt and experienced Haibane Renmei [B]through[/B] Rakka, so everything that's shown is what she knows/experiences. To get to the heart of the matter, I'm pretty sure she [SPOILER]remembered the crow[/SPOILER]. But you know who could probably clear this up the best? Mimmi. ^^ She's the one who has this classic fresh in her mind, haha. I never really linked the Haibane with the crows in such a way, but that was quite clever. But here's the clincher: [SPOILER]are you saying/thinking that the Haibane may be more crow than human[/SPOILER], if you know what I mean? That is, assuming all the Haibane were Reki-ish in that they [SPOILER]committed suicide[/SPOILER], is their state of being a punishment (or almost a fall from grace)? *clicks link* O_o I never knew crows carried so many different connotations. [B][U]Halo Too[/U][/B] That was a very nice pickup, Mimmi! I honestly can't see the relevance, but it is an interesting point nonetheless. I'm drawing a blank when I try to extrapolate something from the fact, so I'm hoping one of you lovely ladies have something more. ^^; Mimmi, [SPOILER]you start talking about Nazi and stuff, but then say they are treated equal[/SPOILER]. That just kind of confused me. *demands elaboration* [B][U]Sin-ified[/U][/B] Mimmi, I can't tell if what you said was something you got from the show, or your own opinion on a delicate topic. That is, [SPOILER]in the world of Haibane Renmei, can one forgive him/herself, or do you just believe someone should be able to[/SPOILER]? Also, [SPOILER]guilt, forgiveness, and penance[/SPOILER] are all different things. That is, if you [SPOILER]feel guilt, and then overcome it[/SPOILER], that's not the same thing as [SPOILER]recieving forgiveness[/SPOILER]. Now that I think about it, can you (even in IRL), [SPOILER]forgive yourself if you've wronged someone else[/SPOILER]? O_o Yes, you can move on, but that's not [SPOILER]forgiveness[/SPOILER]. And yes, you can do [SPOILER]good to make up for it (aka penance)[/SPOILER], but that's not quite the same. [B][U]FGiWD™ Revisited[/U][/B] So she doesn't?! Wait, what did I think that would mean? I guess I'll just have to steal Mimmi's idea... <_< I [i]really[/i] like Mimmi's analysis, but I MUST know! Why FGiWD™?! That is, why not [SPOILER]a younger Reki of Old Home (i.e., with wings)[/SPOILER]. Couldn't she just as well held Rakka back? Oh, wait, something's coming back: this was where we can make wild speculations since we really can't say anything for sure, right? [SPOILER]If FGiWD™ doesn't have wings, we don't really know much about Reki's pre-Gaihe existence, so we can't say anything for sure[/SPOILER]. [B][U]Toga[/U][/B] Oh, hold up, Sara. I think she was going a slightly different direction with the Togay (correct me if any of what I say is wrong, Mimmi). [SPOILER]I believe Mimmi believes that there are two worlds: the normal world like where we live, and then the afterlife, which is Glie and only Glie[/SPOILER]. However, Haibane are a special case. [SPOILER]They are people who, for whatever reason, are transient beings between the two worlds (aka struggling between life and death)[/SPOILER]. So, what you actually have is support for that original idea of mine about Gaihe being a [SPOILER]pre-death world[/SPOILER] (well, kind of - at least when it comes to the Haibane). Quite interesting... And so all personel are accounted for: [SPOILER]normal people who live and then just die are the townspeople of Glie; those who experience a near-death experience become Haibane in Glie, as they may make it back to the normal yet; and those who don't make it back to the normal world die but become Toga[/SPOILER]. So, you could think of Mimmi's idea as a [SPOILER]Day of Flight[/SPOILER] with no consequential [SPOILER]Day of Plight[/SPOILER] should you not achieve the former. Was that what you were thinking, Mimmi? Pretty solid, if you ask me. Dunno if I agree with it, but it's quite concrete. ^^ [B][U]Nutty Dreams[/U][/B] I went "Awww..." at that too, Sara. ^^ It's also works as a very cute nickname, IMO. Anyway, isn't Reki's name [SPOILER]explained at the end of the series as she takes her Day of Flight[/SPOILER]? Definately a reversal, but I wonder if that was just so [SPOILER]her strong character would be stronger (testing her mettle, so to speak)[/SPOILER]. Oh man, just remembering the seen with the [SPOILER]second name[/SPOILER] still sends chills. That was just messed up. I'm not surprised she cracked at that moment. As for Hikari, hello people! [SPOILER]She was SO perky that she spontaneously combusted[/SPOILER]. :p While I have no grudge against her, I'm not all too fond of her: she's not that imperative to the development of the show. In fact, that one joke with the Halo is all I can remember her doing. O_o As for Kuu, I keep going back to the "Wondering" episode, where Rakka [SPOILER]hears Kuu's voice when she's between the wall[/SPOILER]. I remember that [SPOILER]Kuu's departure[/SPOILER] is essentially the crux of the entire show: things turn grim from then on. I'm not saying they were grim already, but a sense of time and pressure really came on by that one event. Rakka really took that hard, and I also had something to say about the whole thing, but like Mimmi, I too forgot. O_o Reki, Reki, REKI! I really like your (both of you) discussion about her and [SPOILER]dreams[/SPOILER]. Quite fascinating that Reki could indeed be [SPOILER]the crow in Rakka's dream[/SPOILER]. Do you think there's any correlation with FGiWD™, though? O_o[/COLOR] EDIT: btw, can we all title topics (you don't have to do it like I did). I think it might be easier since we are talking about so many different aspects of the show at once. ^^; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimmsicle Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 [U][B]Crows[/B][/U] Rakka does not remember[spoiler] the crow until she falls into the well[/spoiler]. I meant that if the Haibane [spoiler]didn't work or contribute to the community they would be considered scavengers, like the crows[/spoiler]. [U][B]Halo[/B][/U] Well, in Nazy camps people were given symbols to signify what religion they belonged to (I don't know if there were certain symbols for anything else, like sexuality). The Haibane are given the halos to distinguish them from the rest of the people in Glie and that's where I drew my reference from. [U][B]Sin-ified[/B][/U] (lol) I guess I extrapolated it from what the Communicator said.[spoiler] Forgiving yourself is really hard, if not impossible, but if you feel that you've done someone wrong and they forgive you, then it's easier to accept.[/spoiler] Dunno why I spoilered that, but yeah. Also, no one[spoiler] forgave Rakka. She just saw the dead crow as a sign of being forgiven. So it could be either way. Someone forgiving you or you forgiving yourself/accepting your Sin and moving on.[/spoiler] [U][B]FGiWD? Revisited[/B][/U] Man, you really confused me with this paragraph XD Anyway. It would make no sense for [spoiler]Early Old Home Reki to hold back Present Reki. EOHR didn't know anything about what happened before she was hatched into Old Home, whereas FGiWD? Reki was there and experienced it. [i]She's[/i] the one who has to be convinced to accept "salvation"[/spoiler]. [U][B]Toga[/B][/U] Actually, I believe Glie is [spoiler]a middle station, inhabited by real people (ie not dead) to add to the feeling of familiarity/security to the Haibane. (But dead-dead people would work too). I mean, if we go by the whole unfinished business, it'd be really difficult to sort yourself out in a totally strange/freaky envoriment. Depending on your situation before Glie (dead or possibly dying) you either go on to the afterlife or back to the world beyo--- ooooo a new thought, the walls are what separates the middle world from the after world/heaven? The walls are the pearly gates? No, they believe the walls keep them safe from the evil behind it, so it could be [B]Hell [/B]on the outside?[/spoiler] Excuse me, I just lost my trail of thought. Moving on! [U][B]Nutty dreams[/B][/U] Yeah, I believe the [spoiler]reversed order of her name giving was to give (haha) her a chance to forgive herself/test her when her Day of Flight came and she still hadn't been able to move on from her cocoon dream/losing Kuramori[/spoiler]. [spoiler]Kuu's departure[/spoiler] really helped to force out some of the development in both Rakka and Reki, that's for sure. Rakka was already wavering in her ways ("what are the Haibane?", "what's beyond the walls?", etc etc), but it took until[spoiler] Kuu left to really push her to become Sin-Bound. Rakka was sort of on her way to forgiveness and was then swiftly knocked back by another person leaving her[/spoiler]. See? I ordered it out nicely for you, Azure :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 [COLOR=blue]Geez, Sara! One surprise at a time! First your avatar, and then you were awesome enough to do the title thing in all your posts! That's just crazy. I will follow suit... just, much, much slower and later. Why am I so lazy? O_o [CENTER][U][B]Crows[/B][/U][/CENTER] ^^; Haha, I guess I should have clarified that I was talking about Sara's post and not yours, Mimmi. She was talking about the connotations that crows could have, and so it seemed like she might have been going in that direction is all. Certainly, that is the case, Mimmi. I didn't think you were saying something else. Although, how do you feel about my extrapolation from Sara's comments? [CENTER][U][B]Halo[/B][/U][/CENTER] Actually, [SPOILER]we are never told why they are given halos[/SPOILER], except to possibly live with the stereotype ([SPOILER]"Hey, we've got wings, so why stop halfway?"[/SPOILER]). I mean, as Sara pointed out, the whole event (i.e., "marking" one with the halo) doesn't have a "forced" feel to it, nevermind a Nazi-ish one. Not to say that you are wrong or anything, but it seems kind of pointless to mark someone who is already clearly marked with wings, eh? Unless it is for purely symbolic purposes with no practical use. O_o [CENTER][U][B]Sin-ified[/B][/U][/CENTER] As for Rakka, yeah, I guess it's all about how you percieve the situation [SPOILER]with the crow: either it forgave her or she forgave herself[/SPOILER]. And what about the most important case: the one with Reki? Argh, I can't remember... I need to watch this series again. Still, you can explain that too, heh. [SPOILER]You said that it was all about calling out for help, as it's very hard to ask for help unless it is offered[/SPOILER]. But shouldn't her situation have something about [SPOILER]forgiveness[/SPOILER] in it, regardless of whether [SPOILER]she forgives herself or someone forgives her[/SPOILER]? [CENTER][U][B]FGiWD™ Revisited[/B][/U][/CENTER] Alrighty. That's all I was asking. Sorry for the confusion, heh. (I honestly don't remember this, but Sara mentioned it): [SPOILER]Why was the FGiWD™ helpful at one moment and unhelpful at another time[/SPOILER]? You know, all schizo like. Or, do you think she was just doing what's best at both times in the show? [CENTER][U][B]Toga[/B][/U][/CENTER] O_o Most interesting, haha. Yeah, the power of the wall makes one wonder... Maybe you are on to something there, Mimmi. [SPOILER]"What is beyond the Wall?"[/SPOILER] is a question that Sara and/or I have little conclusion on, so more input would be great material for discussion. Anyway, as I said before, this follows closely with what I originally thought of Glie as. Of course, that doesn't help us get to a conclusion but makes for more possibilities. This will be fun. ^^ What do you think of Sara's [SPOILER]dual-nature[/SPOILER] theory, and which of the two theories do you prefer? [CENTER][U][B]Nutty dreams[/B][/U][/CENTER] O_o Slightly off-topic: I've been having the strangest, almost real dreams as of late, haha. It's quite interesting. Do you put any weight on dreams, and if so, does it make you enjoy the dream aspect of Haibane Renmei more?[/COLOR] Bleh, I'm not pleased with my discussive prowess on Haibane Renmei. I really have to watch it over. Speaking of which... <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=blue][size=3][center][B][U]Crows[/b][/u][/center][/size] I never really linked the Haibane with the crows in such a way, but that was quite clever. But here's the clincher: [SPOILER]are you saying/thinking that the Haibane may be more crow than human[/SPOILER], if you know what I mean? That is, assuming all the Haibane were Reki-ish in that they [SPOILER]committed suicide[/SPOILER], is their state of being a punishment (or almost a fall from grace)?[/QUOTE][font=trebuchet ms]I'm not really saying anything of the sort. :) Sometimes, Azure, I just draw parallels without conclusions. Heh. I just think it's an interesting situation. Certainly the crows can be said to represent the Haibane in some ways (although I might not go too much further with that). They may be symbolic, but they obviously also have a role to play in the story. That is, they aren't [i]purely[/i] symbolic, so it's reasonable to assume that any symbolism they do have is not 'finished' or definitive. I'm really interested now in watching the rest of Lain, as well. I think I remember seeing crows in the opening, or the first episode... are they there throughout the show? Oh, and the titles were really fun. [/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureWolf Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Lore][font=trebuchet ms']I'm not really saying anything of the sort. :) Sometimes, Azure, I just draw parallels without conclusions. Heh.[/font][/quote][COLOR=blue]If only Godel's Sakura avi was a smiley, I'd use it here... -_- So, let me see if I'm getting this straight: there's a symbolic relationship between the Haibane and the crows, but you don't believe that's the main purpose for the crows being in Haibane Renmei? Maybe they are the government. Afterall, there are only two things certain in life, eh?[/bad joke] [QUOTE][font=trebuchet ms]I'm really interested now in watching the rest of Lain, as well. I think I remember seeing crows in the opening, or the first episode... are they there throughout the show?[/font][/QUOTE] LOL! I must have written this in another forum, but I said the same thing when I saw the opening for Lain! I was wondering if the crows were important and if the meaning behind them could be applied to Haibane Renmei. Unfortunately, I was very disappointed when I realized that they were only in the opening and not elaborated on at all throughout the show. Still, it makes one wonder why they are even in the opening. I have a crazy idea about that, but it'll be for some other time. Oh, btw, I can't believe I forgot to show you this after you finished watching Haibane Renmei: [url=http://home.earthlink.net/~azurwolf/images/Kitty%20Haibane.swf]Kitty Haibane![/url]. Yeah, the only downside is that it's in Japanese so you don't know what the story is. If only someone could just tell us the little story. It's still nice, though. ^^ Oh, and a funny wallpaper I found.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [FONT=Trebuchet MS][center][u][b][size=4]Azure's Still Trying to Get Me To Give Him A Definite Conclusion About The Crows, Which I Don't Have[/size][/b][/u][/center] [QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=blue]If only Godel's Sakura avi was a smiley, I'd use it here... -_- So, let me see if I'm getting this straight: there's a symbolic relationship between the Haibane and the crows, but you don't believe that's the main purpose for the crows being in Haibane Renmei?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]...ahem. I'm just observing things, Azure! Chill out, buddy! I said that the crows (at least, [spoiler]Rakka's[/spoiler] crow) obviously play a role [i]in the plot[/i], as well as whatever symbolism they may have. [center][u][b][size=4]Cute Stuff![/size][/b][/u][/center] I have that wallpaper. I just about died laughing when I first saw it. ^_^ I actually want to make more--I've played around with iPod wallpapers in the past. A couple of the less awful looking ones are up on theOtaku. And the flash movie is adorable. The kitties twitching their ears together toward the end... Say it with me: AWWWWWWW! (Although I also need to point of that just as I began to watch it, the Twilight Zone thing came up on iTunes, and it was very creepy :p)[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimmsicle Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 [CENTER][SIZE=3][B]Halo[/B][/SIZE][/CENTER] About the halo: I was going to say that the wings can be hidden, but then again so can the halo (Hyohko had a cap, Kuu a hat) so I never brought that up as a point, heh. The only way you could make a more distinct connection to Nazi times would be if their "mark" set them apart from the townspeople in a negative way, which never happens. But you know, even if there's no forced feeling over the halo .... they don't really get a say in the matter. They're born into this unknown world and have to depend on what the other Haibane tells them. What if someone decides they don't want the halo? =o Also, the halo is made[spoiler] from chips off of those rocks in the wall.... and on the rocks are the true names of all the Haibane...[/spoiler] <--- there's some sort of point there. I'll think more and see if it comes out of my brain =.= [CENTER][SIZE=3][B]Sin-ified[/B][/SIZE][/CENTER] Uhh, no?[spoiler] She's already gotten her forgiveness but just like she hadn't accepted her dream, she hadn't accepted the forgiveness. Hence why the situation was about facing her fears, instead of forgiving herself. Though in asking for help she forgave herself.[/spoiler] *goes in circles* I should sit down and really think of how to phrase this some day. [CENTER][SIZE=3][B]FGiWD? Revisited[/B][/SIZE][/CENTER] FGiWD? was helpful just after [spoiler]Rakka left because something in Reki wavered and wanted Rakka to come back/she wanted to go out of the room.[/spoiler] FGiWD? is unhelpful later on because[spoiler] it's Reki that has to make the choice of being saved. If she doesn't, then she hasn't accepted her sin and can't be forgiven ultimately[/spoiler], I guess? [CENTER][SIZE=3][B]Dreams[/B][/SIZE][/CENTER] [quote name='AzureWolf']"O_o Slightly off-topic: I've been having the strangest, almost real dreams as of late, haha. It's quite interesting. Do you put any weight on dreams, and if so, does it make you enjoy the dream aspect of Haibane Renmei more?"[/quote]Haha, yeah the dream aspect really calls to me. Not that I wake up every morning and go "man, that dream was telling me this and that" but there are times when they help me see things more clearly. And since they're very real/vivid lately, even more so. *still can't get over that train dream* Brrr. [size=1][I]*Excuse the sloppyness of this post.[/I][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlawstar69 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 I was browsing through Wikipedia, and came upon this: "In an interview in the magazine Animerica, ABe stated that the series was inspired by Haruki Murakami's novel Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, which takes place half in a walled city with no apparent outside. Some fans believe the series contains influence from another Murakami novel, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, in which the main character spends a large amount of time at the bottom of a well." I read that, and then it hit me that I had read that book before, a long time ago, when I was friends with the Japanese foreign exchange student. I had forgotten the title, but the plot of the story haunted me, in a good way. The Wikipedia link is here ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard-Boiled_Wonderland_and_the_End_of_the_World[/url]). I don't want to give away any spoilers, but if you can borrow or buy this, you will know on a much deeper level what was going on in Mr. ABe's head when he thought of the series. It's been a long time since I read it, but if anyone else who read it would like to reply, I would be glad to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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