Terrorist Attack in Madrid

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] O_o Wow, I'm a bit surprised to see this thread hasn't been made yet.

[b]3/11[/b]: Madrid, Spain was attacked by terrorists [now confirmed to be Al Qaeda [sp?] after officials found a video camera] by being bombed at the train station. I think the death count right now is 190-200 people, with over 600 people injured. Many people think that it's related to the 9/11 attacks, which I really agree with on a whole.

I think they've arrested about five people already, tracking them down by finding out the buyers of these cheap cell phones and phone cards, because apparantly the terrorists were using them to communicate to each other. They used ten backpacks to hide the bombs and you can figure out the rest. The whole mess has caused Spain to re-elect a new Prime Minister that opposes sending troops to Iraq to help the US and it's just very devastating overall. However, [b]11 million[/b] Spainish people gathered at a rally to support the victoms' families and such.[/color]

[Dagger]

When I first heard of the attack, I remained relatively unaffected. It seems as though there are terrible atrocities in the news almost every single day, and I have to admit that violence no longer upsets me like it should.

But the next day I saw an article (complete with some truly incredible pictures) about the Spanish people's solidarity. Halfway through reading it, I sat down and burst into tears. The fact that such a thing could occur even after our much-touted war on terrorism--the fact that it happened to one of America's closest allies.....

Sometimes I don't know what to think about the world. But in any case, I'm also of the opinion that Al Queda was behind this.

~Dagger~

[Guest Crimson Spider]

This is why we must eliminate Al Qaeda. (a whole lot of confirmations).

Al Qaeda doesn't seem like the "forgive and forget" type. These radical groups have a tendancy to hold grudges. In response to the recent eye-opening incident our European friend had, they are withdrawing their troops from the side of the U.S. from fear of further attacks. Even after this, they probably still won't like Spain. Nor Brittian... nor France... nor Iran...

[dMage]

The attacks of March 11th have been blamed on Al Queda (rumors persist of a videotape that Al Queda made, claiming the bombings as their work, and saying that this was retaliation towards Spain for having troops in Iraq). And while I applaud the fact that Spain is removing its troops from Iraq, I am fearful of the new socialist gov't that is now in control of Spain. Gov'ts in other parts of the world are coming to elections soon, and many are showing a tendency to side with socialistic parties. I hope that my fears here are based more on ignorance than knowledge, but haven't many Socialist gov'ts not worked? I mean, Russia sure ain't anywhere near the power it once was, and its been (was?) a Socialist gov't for some time. Sure the idea looks pretty on paper, and in the hands of a good orator, it sounds like the a great thing, but I really am not aware of any triumphs in the real world.

[Dagger]

[quote name='Crimson Spider']Al Qaeda doesn't seem like the "forgive and forget" type. These radical groups have a tendancy to hold grudges.[/quote]

Congratulations, CS. You just won my highly coveted "Understatement of the Week" award. ^_~

At this point I think it's obvious that Al Qaeda/Queda (anyone care to tell me which spelling is more correct?) espouses violence for the sake of violence. They don't really have any kind of political purpose or agenda.... I recently skimmed a piece in Time that quoted one of their videotapes as saying, "You love life. We love death"--those words are an approximation, since my copy of the magazine is currently missing, but I think they get the basic point across.

Like you said, Spain's withdrawal will do nothing to appease Al Qaeda. So here's my question: is removing the troops the right decision?

~Dagger~

[DeathBug]

My heart goes out to the people of Spain. The tradegy they underwent is horrible; however...in their election process, they did exactly the wrong thing. They allowed terrorists to alter their public policy, and this will only embolden Iraq in the future. This is a bad precendent to set, and it endangers Europe in the furture.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I think the more pressure you put on Al Qaeda (THIS is the proper spelling) the better. Removing troops won't really do anything, just like ceding land every now and then to the Palestinians really won't do anything in the long run as far as that's concerned. In fact, I'm of the opinion that the more a country acquiesces to terrorist demands/"suggestions" the more likely terrorists are to turn that country into their *****. At least that's what I would do if I were them.

The problem is it's really hard to fight something that you can't see. And it only gets worse. A terrorist attack in Israel recently was found to have been caused by two BRITISH citizens (of Arab descent) who were "won over" by the Palestinian cause to the point of suicide bombing. They were let into the country because they were carrying British passports. For security, responding to something like that is terribly problematic.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']At this point I think it's obvious that Al Qaeda/Queda (anyone care to tell me which spelling is more correct?) espouses violence for the sake of violence.[/quote]

[color=green]There are many different ways of spelling ?Al Qaeda?, due to the complicated translation of Arabic to English. Both of the above names are correct. Two random facts; Al Qaeda means ?the base? in Arabic and was formed while the US was assisting the Mujahadeen in fighting the USSR in Afghanistan.[/color]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']They don't really have any kind of political purpose or agenda.... I recently skimmed a piece in Time that quoted one of their videotapes as saying, "You love life. We love death"--those words are an approximation, since my copy of the magazine is currently missing, but I think they get the basic point across.[/quote]

[color=green]Actually, Al Qaeda has a few goals that they claim to be fighting to achieve. These include the complete removal of all non-Muslims from the Middle East, the expulsion of Israel from the Middle East and a worldwide Islamic state. Since non of those are likely to happen soon, there?s really no way of knowing if these terrorists will stick by their word and put down their weapons once their goals are met.

I?d be willing to be that they, like the Hamaas, don?t really want peace. These organizations, like Dagger pointed out, thrive on terror and chaos. Without the terrible conditions in the Middle East, these groups wouldn?t exist. For this reason they endeavor to destabilize the region in order to maintain power. This is why Al Qaeda is in Iraq, fighting a losing battle to toss that country into civil war. They know that should Iraq become a democratic society, it will be the beginning of the end for their organizations. Arabs will see the prosperity that democracy offers, and reject hate groups like Al Qaeda.[/color]

[quote name='Dagger IX1'] Like you said, Spain's withdrawal will do nothing to appease Al Qaeda. So here's my question: is removing the troops the right decision?[/quote]

[color=green]Since we?re giving out awards, I?ll bestow the Neville Chamberlain Award to the new socialist prime minister of Italy. He made the wrong decision that will only inspire terrorists to continue to bully the Italian government. So much for fighting terrorism?[/color]

[dMage]

[QUOTE]I?ll bestow the Neville Chamberlain Award to the new socialist prime minister of Italy[/QUOTE]
Firstly, the Italian gov't, as far as I know, is still a Republic, I think you meant Spain. Secondly, as a leader of a country, I think that certain concessions must be made to make sure that peace will remain in the nation. Thirdly, while it seems that many won't agree with me, I must stress the following point: George Bush and other countries proclaim they are fighting terrorism. The only connection in Iraq with terrorists, that of Saddam Hussein and terrorists cells, has been dealt with, now that Saddam is in our hands. We have no real reason or right to stay in this country, our involvement in their policies and gov't have had enough lasting damage already (i.e. guess who put Saddam into power back in the day? thats right, US)
[QUOTE]This is why Al Qaeda is in Iraq, fighting a losing battle to toss that country into civil war. They know that should Iraq become a democratic society, it will be the beginning of the end for their organizations. Arabs will see the prosperity that democracy offers, and reject hate groups like Al Qaeda.[/QUOTE] One of the reasons why some people put up with Al Qaeda in the Middle East is because they see them as revolutionaries and heroes, defending the way of their people. Many Middle Easterners simply want to deal with their own problems, and don't want to accept the "Westernization" of their world. With our continued occupation, we're really getting nowhere quick

[Guest Crimson Spider]

People are always attacking me for making radical, ignorant statements, regardless of how accurate they are. When I try to be more ambiguous, people say I'm understating.

Well, I consider taking the troups out of action not being the smartest choice. Although the concern for their own troops is admerable, the retracting of their own troops won't end the problem. Being more of an efficiancy thinker, I say eliminate the problem now.

EDIT:
EDIT AGAIN: O.K. so he wasn't really attacking Bush, but he/she did mention him specifically and not just the U.S., which is a very commonly used trick as a denyable down-talk towards someone or something.
[QUOTE=dMage]Thirdly, while it seems that many won't agree with me, I must stress the following point: George Bush and other countries proclaim they are fighting terrorism. The only connection in Iraq with terrorists, that of Saddam Hussein and terrorists cells, has been dealt with, now that Saddam is in our hands. We have no real reason or right to stay in this country,
[/quote]Oh how we wish that were true. On the news, these radical groups of Pro-Saddam, Anti-American, and just plain terrorrists are attacking not only our countries, but their own civilians, such as the police depot. The reason why innocent people die every day in Iraq is because of these terrorrists who refuse freedom, a better government, or are part of a Muslim sect that dis-likes American for reasons unmentioned.
[quote] our involvement in their policies and gov't have had enough lasting damage already (i.e. guess who put Saddam into power back in the day? thats right, US) [/quote]People make mistakes. Other people try to right them.
[quote]
One of the reasons why some people put up with Al Qaeda in the Middle East is because they see them as revolutionaries and heroes, defending the way of their people. Many Middle Easterners simply want to deal with their own problems, and don't want to accept the "Westernization" of their world. With our continued occupation, we're really getting nowhere quick[/QUOTE]

Recent polls in Iraq issued by the United States media say otherwise. True that they want us to leave, but not before fixing everything first.

[dMage]

How can u eliminate a problem u can't see?

[crimsonbullet]

Mainly I don't have too much to say on this subject except this is their two towers deal. Not as big as Al Qaeda doesn't hate them as much but it apperently was stong enough to swing public opinion in the way they wanted- to socialism. More or less Europes in the positon it was in world war two and they don't learn that appeasement doesn't work or that ignoring it doesn't work! Its stupidly repetitive. And guess whos going to bail out everyone in the end... the US of A.

[Guest cloricus]

[quote name='maladjusted][color=firebrick]Now confirmed to be Al Qaeda [sp?'] after officials found a video camera[/color][/quote]

If you count confirmed meaning a video tape that was conveniently left out side a mosk as conclusive. Personally likely planted evidence just doesn't cut it for me; give me some REAL facts as any one can say they blew up something. (It is not uncommon for terrorist groups to claim for another?s attack.)

EDIT:
[quote]Don't want to accept the "Westernization" of their world.[/quote]

Not true, Iraq was one of the "model eastern states" in the 1950's the same as Afghanistan was in the 1920s. In fact they had more rights for women than America, England and Australia at that point so I'd really question their "lack of wanting to be westernised" as you try to point out.

Also America issuing a poll on how people see them occupying their country is like holding a gun to a primary school kid and asking them for an honest opinion on how you are teaching the class. (Note that they do have a lot to complain about, lack of power, food and communications which I will note existed before America decided to bomb stuff, and we all know how good America?s aim is.)

[James]

[color=#707875]Let's not even go there. We know that the Iraqi people are frustrated by America's inability to get things running -- but we [i]also [/i]know that the vast majority of Iraqis were happy to be liberated from Saddam (not to mention that vast amounts of infrastructure were dismantled before the war [i]and [/i]that there have been hundreds of attempts to sabotage what little has been salvaged). I wish we could at least get this part of it clear.

In regard to the terror attacks in Spain...I don't know what to say. Obviously something like this is a massive tragedy -- one that cannot be justified by any political agenda whatsoever. I don't care who you are or how desperate your circumstances are; killing innocent people is unjustifiable, when you're deliberately targeting them. Bear in mind that even ETA -- a terrorist organization -- usually attacked Government/military establishments and often gave forewarning so that no civilians would be hurt. At the very least, one could say that ETA doesn't quite hit the same degree of ferocity and senselessness that Al Qaeda does.

In regard to Al Qaeda's motives...the primary reason for Al Qaeda's creation was because bin Laden was incensed that the American forces were in the holy land, during Gulf War I. Make no mistake; this claim that Al Qaeda is fighting on behalf of muslim freedom (in regard to Israel/Palestine) is an utter joke. It's a very convenient excuse for them to justify what they do. In reality, the whole organization is based on bin Laden's crazy, paranoid and irrational cult, which is only vaguely related to Islam -- and it's being generous to even say that the connections are vague.

Also, Al Qaeda may say that this attack was retaliation for Spain's effort in Iraq. I'm sure that, as usual, they will come up with any excuse to kill non-Muslims. But remember one important thing -- Al Qaeda has also threatened France on a number of occasions (including after the Madrid bombings) and France has continually cowered in the face of terrorism and the international attempts to thwart it. So, no country is invulnerable.

It's on this basis that I think we should not wind down the effort against terrorism, but instead intensify it. France may find that any attempt to do otherwise is an act of suicide, more than anything else.[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']Massive tragedy -- one that cannot be justified by any political agenda whatsoever.[/color][/quote]

I totally agree one hundred percent no questions asked; also on a totally unrelated in any way shape or form note have you seen the latest civilian casualty statistics for Iraq yet?

I would like to just also say that my understanding was that Al Qaeda is in fact just an umbrella to give a name to a global collective of different terrorist groups with no real central leadership or administration. In a structure not unlike the internet in the way that it has separate networks that are totally independent in every way but have small connections between each other to achieve a common goal, I was under the impression that Al Qaeda was the same?

If this is true then it annoys me the way people talk about Al Qaeda as one thing that has the same values and moral ideals as the other parts. It's like saying that Microsoft and Open Source are the same since they share a common goal and medium. Why would I care? A terrorist is a terrorist right? Well I wouldn't but how do you know that some of these groups aren't fighting a good cause or that they are more likely to use peaceful means to achieve what they want. (Plus I'm getting sick of people pinning things on Al Qaeda, it's like buzz word of the decade!)

[Mitch]

[size=1][color=red] Obviously it's sad things like this have to happen. But there's not much else I can say. I don't really pay intent attention to the news, and so I have what I've heard and that's enough.

I've found on a day-to-day basis you can find some kind of suicide bombing almost every other day at the least.

Usually it's over petty religious ideals, but now it's supposed to be terrorists. Whatever the case, there's no much I can do, so I just hear it and that's about all.[/size][/color]

[Dagger]

[quote name='cloricus']. . . . If this is true then it annoys me the way people talk about Al Qaeda as one thing that has the same values and moral ideals as the other parts. It's like saying that Microsoft and Open Source are the same since they share a common goal and medium.[/quote]

I don't think that's a particularly accurate analogy. Frankly, I couldn't give a **** about the morals and values (or lack thereof) that various terrorist groups hold in high esteem. They're terrorists [i]because[/i] they engage in "the unlawful use of violence against people or property with the intention of intimidating/coercing governments, often for political/ideological reasons."

Their goals are less important than the means they use to get there. The potential validity of a terrorist's ideals is totally nullified by the fact that he or she's a terrorist.


[quote]A terrorist is a terrorist right?[/quote]

Damn, I was going to say that. ;P


[quote]Well I wouldn't but how do you know that some of these groups aren't fighting a good cause or that they are more likely to use peaceful means to achieve what they want. (Plus I'm getting sick of people pinning things on Al Qaeda, it's like buzz word of the decade!)[/QUOTE]

More likely, more schmikely. If an organization is categorized as a terrorist group, chances are that it has done something to injure and kill civilians. [i]No[/i] cause can possibly be good enough to justify the deployment of suicide bombers.

The Spanish government didn't even want to "pin" it on Al Qaeda (thanks for setting me straight about the spelling, Sciros). I'm sure an ETA attack would have been more advantageous for them politically; in fact, some Spaniards have accused officials of covering up discoveries that pointed to Al Qaeda being responsible for the bombing. It's not as though we're making totally unfounded accusations.

~Dagger~

[James]

[quote name='cloricus']I totally agree one hundred percent no questions asked; also on a totally unrelated in any way shape or form note have you seen the latest civilian casualty statistics for Iraq yet?[/quote]
[color=#707875]Yes, about six and a half hours ago a massive bomb went off in Baghdad, killing something like 27 people and injuring 40. At least, that's the lastest figure; I'm sure it will rise.

Again, the work of terrorists.[/color][quote=cloricus]

I would like to just also say that my understanding was that Al Qaeda is in fact just an umbrella to give a name to a global collective of different terrorist groups with no real central leadership or administration. In a structure not unlike the internet in the way that it has separate networks that are totally independent in every way but have small connections between each other to achieve a common goal, I was under the impression that Al Qaeda was the same?
[/QUOTE]
[color=#707875]Of course a terrorist group doesn't have some kind of central administration or something. But we do know that Al Qaeda was started by bin Laden and that it is funded by his money primarily. He's in control of it, although obviously there are various cells that operate semi-independently (and there are thought to be various splinter groups that are only affiliated with Al Qaeda, rather than being a direct part of it).

All of these groups are a mish-mash of different ideas. Some want one thing, some want another and so it goes. They all have some objective and they think they can reach it through killing scores of children on the train, on their way to school in the morning. Obviously these people are completely insane.[/color]

[Maikeru]

Al Queda should be elimated. Now they're bringing Spain in to this so, maybe we can actually eliminate them. Here's a coinkidink...the attacks are on 3/11...and the attacks on us were on 9/11...some pattern is going on here. o.0

[Guest cloricus]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']Yes, about six and a half hours ago a massive bomb went off in Baghdad, killing something like 27 people and injuring 40. At least, that's the lastest figure; I'm sure it will rise.[/color][/quote]

Oh I'm sorry, we'll just ignore the ten thousand plus Iraq civilians that died as result of the American invasion. *Sweeps under the carpet, it's all good!* :)

[Juu]

[color=deeppink][size=1]Erm... is it just me, or does it seem like every time a bomb goes off, the Al Qaeda is automatically filed on the news as if it's been totally confirmed? I mean, there's still no proof that they were actually the ones behind 9/11, and I don't understand why when a train blows up in Spain, it's immediately the Al Qaeda's fault.

I know they're terrorists, and I know they're terrible people. However, I don't think they're behind every single bombing there is in the world. [/color][/size]

[DeathBug]

[quote name='cloricus']Oh I'm sorry, we'll just ignore the ten thousand plus Iraq civilians that died as result of the American invasion. *Sweeps under the carpet, it's all good!* :)[/quote]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]As opposed to the tens of thousands found in Saddam's mass graves all over the country?[/color][/size][/font]

[Guest cloricus]

[quote name='DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]As opposed to the tens of thousands found in Saddam's mass graves all over the country?[/color][/size'][/font][/quote]

Off topic. Or should we look at the thousands America, or other western countries that have the death penalty, put to death each year?

[Dagger]

[quote=CNN.com]MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A man appearing in a videotape claiming to be a military spokesman for Al Qaeda in Europe says al Qaeda was behind Thursday's bombings in Madrid that killed 200 people.

Spanish and U.S. authorities were trying to determine the authenticity of the tape.

The videotape, released by Interior Minister Angel Acebes and signed by Abu Dujan Al Afgani, says:

"We declare our responsibility for what occurred in Madrid, just 2.5 years after the attacks in New York and Washington. It is a response to your collaboration with the criminals (U.S. President) Bush and his allies.

"This is a response to the crimes that you have caused in the world and specifically in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And there will be more, God willing.

"You love life and we love death which gives you an example of what the prophet Mohammed said that if you do not stop your injustices, the blood will flow more and more, and these attacks will seem very small with what could occur with what you call terrorism.

"This is a message from the military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe."

The Interior Ministry issued a Spanish translation of the Arabic message on the tape, and Acebes held an early-Sunday news conference saying Spanish law enforcement had obtained it.

A ministry spokesman told CNN that the regional television station Telemadrid received a phone call about 7:30 p.m. (1830 GMT) Saturday from a man who spoke in Arabic with a Moroccan accent.

The man had called the station's switchboard and said there was a videotape in a trash receptacle between the main mosque and a main highway, M-30, in Madrid.

Investigators went to the location and got the tape, which they checked to be sure it was not booby-trapped.

The Basque separatist group ETA, meanwhile, has issued a statement denying any role in the Madrid train bombings that killed 200 people, the Basque newspaper Gara said on its Web site on Sunday, as Spain's general election began. (Full story)

A caller in the name of ETA previously had phoned Gara and Basque public television to deny any role in the attacks, Reuters reports.

In other developments, Spanish authorities arrested five people Saturday as part of the investigation into the bombings.

The five arrested are linked to a prepaid telephone card found with an undetonated bomb hours after Thursday's devastating terror attack, Acebes added.

"Early this afternoon, the National Police have detained five people," Acebes told reporters in a nationally televised news conference.

"Three Moroccan citizens, two Indian citizens. There are also two other Spanish citizens of Indian origin from whom we are taking statements.

"All [were detained] for their presumed implication in the sale and falsification of the cell phone and cell phone card found in the bag which did not explode."

The backpack was found on a train after Thursday's attacks and detonated by police.

It also held the explosive ECO; metal pieces intended to multiply a bomb's destructive effect, a detonator and a mobile telephone, the Spanish newspaper El Mundo reported.

The news came on the eve of national elections, as thousands of demonstrators gathered at the headquarters of the ruling political party. The protesters were accusing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar of covering up the investigation of the terrorist attacks.

The demonstrators accuse the Popular Party of covering up evidence linking Islamic extremists, possibly even al Qaeda, to the attacks.[/quote]

Juuthena, I think the article quoted above speaks for itself. Please don't assume that people are blaming Al Qaeda simply because they make easy scapegoats.

EDIT: Guess you didn't see my post, HC. ^_^; Yes, Al Qaeda appears to have claimed responsibility for the attack.

~Dagger~

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE=Juuthena][color=deeppink][size=1]Erm... is it just me, or does it seem like every time a bomb goes off, the Al Qaeda is automatically filed on the news as if it's been totally confirmed? I mean, there's still no proof that they were actually the ones behind 9/11, and I don't understand why when a train blows up in Spain, it's immediately the Al Qaeda's fault.
[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]I don't know if Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the bombing of the train in Madrid, but they did claim responsibility for the terrorist attacks on 9/11.

Cloricus, according to the DPCI (Death Penalty Information Center of America, an orginization that wishes to abolish the death penalty) there have been fewer than one thousand total inmates put to death since 1976, which means the United States executes approximatley 35 people or so a year...still very high, but definately not in the thousands.

What happened in Madrid was a horrible tragedy, I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that. Initially Jose Maria Aznar did finger the ETA, and it would have been more advantageous for his political party if the ETA had commited the attack. However, Spain's newly elected Prime Minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero (cool name), won by such a landslide that it is hard to say whether or not this tragedy was a decisive factor or just a nail in Aznar's coffin.

Involvment in the war in Iraq was very unpopular with the Spanish people, and they voiced their opinion by ousting the main man that was responsible for their involvement.

The real question is, if Al Qaeda is behind the terrorist attack in Madrid, did they attack Spain because of their involvement in the Iraqi war (they had roughly 1200-1300 troops commited, not a small amount, but not a significant amount either) or did they attack Spain for other (or a host of) reasons? Let us face facts, most Al Qaeda card carriers are religious wack jobs, and there are few countries in the western world that have had more transgressions against the muslim world than Spain. Many atrocities have occured there over the past three or four centuries, so I would guess that if the attack was orchestrated by Al Qaeda (which seems most likely) it was done for a multitude of reasons (if you want to consider them [i]reasons[/i]).[/color]