Prayer in Schools

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Yes, this is definately a strange topic for someone like me, but I'm curious about people's veiws on this subject.

I don't really know how to go about starting this except to do this:

In many public schools in my area children gather around a flag pole in teh morning before school to pray. This may help some of these students get through their school days.

However, as we've been saying in another post there seems to be a lack of separation between church and state. But, what if along with Christian students being aloud to pray in school, Pagan students were aloud time for meditaion and so on. Would that help make matters better or worse? What is your opinion on this matter?

As for me, I feel that as long as these students don't try to enforce their veiws on the rest of the school's population and their Bible studies don't interupt school funtions. Along these lines. Other students could practice in tehir beliefs as long as they don't disrupt class doing so.

I know, I'm an idealist, so shoot me

May the Lord and Lady bless you-

Chibi Horsewoman[/color]

[Kinetic]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']This post belongs in the "separation of church and state" thread. There's no reason for two religious debate threads going around. I urge a moderator to merge this thread with that one and then delete my post.[/quote]
It really doesn't have to go into that thread. That thread is about seperation of church and state on the whole, and this gets into a specific area of it. Please stop playing moderator. If they see a post like that, they'll delete it or merge and and inform the author. It's their job. Now lookie there, I'm sort of playing moderator ^_^; Makes me feel like a hypocrite.

Anyway, it's really only a moment of silence in any school I've visited or attended, not a long amount of time. I don't know how long meditation lasts though. I assume that the moment of silence has been in effect for a long time because this is such a Christian-based country. It still is for the most part, but it was much more back when it was created I'm sure. It's just a tradition that has been carried on and I don't care much to change it, as most students don't pray anyway.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Heh. I was just afraid we'd get another heated debate in here and then I'd have two similar posts to write every time and would end up contradicting myself occasionally and... well you know.

Anyway, back on topic: I think prayer and meditation and all sorts of religious trappings should be removed from class. Schools are for a general education, and there's precious little class time as it is to waste any of it humoring people who feel like praying. Again, I am all for separation of church and state. Religion is a personal thing, and should be done on one's own time. If while I was teaching my Taekwondo class everybody took a break to pray to their god (or meditate on something besides martial arts), then I'd get pretty pissed off. Class is short, and there's stuff to learn.

National athem, pledge of allegiance stuff... well I'm sure somebody will probably bring it up in response to my post, as "we've always had time for that." Well I'm not a big fan of either of those, and that's because I'm not big on nationalism. In any case, I guess that is a "state" and not a "religion" thing, so it's a bit harder to argue against with the same argument I gave above. But personally I disagree with that stuff out of principle, because it's on the same level as all the propaganda and nationalistic stuff that everyone hates other countries for. If a country wants to earn my respect and "love," it has to do it by something other than songs and a meaningless pledge. And those things aren't necessary. Anyway I won't dwell on the issue until it's actually brought up by someone else. Sorry for bringing it up at all.

[Transtic Nerve]

I never had a problem with prayer in schools so as long people are not forced to do it and that one religion is put over another. Meaing they have a time for Christian kids to pray and not Hindu kids or whatnot. I honestly wouldn't have a problem if there was just a "relaxed" time for a period of 3-5 minutes where kids could pray, relax, whatever they saw fit to do in that period of time. This way it doesn't give priority to just Christians, or any other religion, and it doesn't take away from those who may not want to pray to whomeever it is they pray.

However, putting prayer in schools as a part of the curriculum takes away from that ideal of the seperation between church and state because you are implimenting a time for children to take part in a church related activity while in the process of doing something run by the state. But I don't believe it would be seen that way if schools were sly enough to call it a "relaxed" time. Because that time and phrasing of the words doesn't insinuate any sort of religious involvement.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman]
In many public schools in my area children gather around a flag pole in teh morning before school to pray.

...But, what if along with Christian students being aloud to pray in school, Pagan students were aloud time for meditaion and so on.[/QUOTE]

I've seen people occasionally do this at my school too (gathering around the flag and praying). They do it in the morning before school begins.

This gathering is of course optional, and is not endorsed by the school or anything. Students simply partake in it. The "time" in which they do it is normal time between when the school opens and when school begins. When school begins they go to class.

If I'm reading your statement right... you're saying that time should be made for Pagan students to meditate, right? Why can't they use that morning time too?

I'm a little confused at what you're trying to say needs to be done here. Unless your whole "gather at the flagpole" thing varies considerably from mine anyway.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][color=darkred] I'm glad Wrist_cutter pointed this out...they're doing it [i]before[/i] school. i.e. in their own time.

What kind of problem could there be with this?

Own time, free time. Do what they want to do. Get it?[/size][/color]

[Semjaza]

You cannot set aside time that is basically acknowledging time for prayer, meditation or whatever it is a person does. It isn't just a simple matter of Christianity versus the state or random people being offended that only Christian students can pray and others cannot... it's religion in general. Taking time out during school hours and curriculum to acknowlege [i]any[/i] of it really is just the same situation with different words.

What kids do before and after school is their own business... but it's not affecting anything that makes up the school's programs or policies on the subject. It'd be totally different if they announced over the PA system to sit and take time out to pray, meditate, etc.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] back on topic: I think prayer and meditation and all sorts of religious trappings should be removed from class.[/quote]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Now, this is quite interesting. "Trappings"... an interesting way to put it.

No one in public school is forced to pray, nor gather around the flagpole. Those opposed to Christian prayer may even leave the room if they want to. They are not made to even witness it, should they choose not to.

I, personally, find it very heartwarming that students would take time out of their mornings, before school, to gather around the flag and ask God for support, peace, & strength. These students risk ridicule & ostracization... because they are not afraid.

I personally do not believe in one true god. However, the fact that these teenagers are so willing to speak their mind, despite the social consequences, is admirable.

And how are we to know for sure that their prayers do no good? They definitely couldn't hurt society as a whole, with morals being the basis of any sort of good behavior. For all we know, those simple prayers, so insignificant to many, may have saved our lives at some point.[/COLOR]

]

[Baron Samedi]

[color=darkred][size=1][quote]Lady M]Those opposed to Christian prayer may even leave the room if they want to. [/quote]

Why should they have to leave the room? If anyone, the Christians should have to leave the room.[/color][/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact it happens on school property.

According to the law, schools and military have different set of rules than public grounds. For example, any property owned by you can be searched under any reason if it is on school propery. After, before, or during school. Maybe the fact a religious act is taking place on property owned by the state is the problem here. If I am a senior in High School, I'm allowed to smoke cigarettes, but I can't on school property (at least in my old HS people couldn't) like I could on my own property. Specific rules apply on school property and perhaps the fact praying is going on on school property is what may bother someone.

I personally think prayer is a personal thing and therefor should take place privately.

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]I agree with what has been stated before, on that, if they do it on their own time, I have no problem with it.

However, until recently, there was a teacher at my school who would preach throughout her classes. She would harrass any one who came to school wearing any religious symbol that wasn't either Christian or Jewish. That is: if it's not a cross, and it's not the Star of David, it's blasphemy, and an insult to us "moral" fellows.

One of my friends has a necklace that has a sword (the blade is a lightning bolt) as a charm. The teacher in question insisted that it was an offense to Christianity and demanded she take it off.
At the next parent's night, she went as far as to tell the aformentioned inidividual's mother that she was [I]going to start a cult[/I].

This is an extremist, and isolated incident, but it has led me to be very bitter about involving religion in schools. That is: teachers have the right to shut up about their religious beliefs, and not harrass their students.
School is not a religious organization.

However, I don't have anything against informing students of other religions [I]without implying that they should be involved with them[/I]. My school puts together display cases about the holidays of different religions, and I see this as a positive thing, simply because it is being presented as a learning experience. It educates us about other cultures.
I don't mind the school throwing together a Christmas concert, as pretty much every one celebrates this holiday. And whatever we put together at school really isn't religious--we focus on the superficial, gift-receiving aspects of the holiday.
Chinese New Year is a big event at my school, as well (though it is not religious), simply because so many students are Chinese. It's hard not to get involved in Chinese New Year around these parts, anyway... : D

So...

Alotted prayer time = No.
Acknowledgement of something every one celebrates anyway = Why not? (I mean, who doesn't like getting free candy canes from people who'd usually be giving you detentions?)

EDIT: Another thing said woman decided to come up with was a [I]Christian Club[/I] of some sorts. They had their picture in the yearbook with the words, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life!" (or something to that degree) written on a portable whiteboard.
And they wouldn't let us start a Dungeons and Dragons club after school on Wednesdays.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[quote name='Semjaza Azazel]You cannot set aside time that is basically acknowledging time for prayer, meditation or whatever it is a person does. It isn't just a simple matter of Christianity versus the state or random people being offended that only Christian students can pray and others cannot... it's religion in general. Taking time out during school hours and curriculum to acknowlege [i]any[/i'] of it really is just the same situation with different words.[/quote]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]I hate to say it to you of all people, but I disagree. Who is to say that spiritual well-being is less important than "intellect"? Principles, morals, and standards are directly responsible for the good in this world. Why shouldn't a few minutes be taken to explore something more esoteric? Is this all there is -- the mere physical existance in which we live?

I see meditation as an exploration of something that science cannot yet define.

Education? What makes you think that meditation is not a form of education?

I could be misunderstanding you, but you seem to think that not only is "religion" out of place in schools, but also downright inappropriate. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][color=darkred][size=1]

Why should they have to leave the room? If anyone, the Christians should have to leave the room.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Hold on, now. I get what you're saying. I simply meant that the Christian religion is most likely to be the one practiced. I was using it as an example.

It would be much better if youth could lose their inhibitions and study all faiths from a logical perspective. Maybe they wouldn't want to be part of any religion at all. It's all a matter a free will, and this is all I meant.[/COLOR]

[Godelsensei]

[QUOTE=Lady Macaiodh][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]

I caould be misunderstanding you, but you seem to think that not only is "religion" out of place in schools, but also downright inappropriate. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Gray]
[FONT=Courier New]Sounds about right.

The fact stands that we attend [I]public[/I] school in order to be educated on the factual, physical, mathematical, scientific and other such aspects of life. So we can get jobs and become productive members of society.
If you wish to pursue a spiritual education, I am not going to get in your way, but please, do it somewhere else. That's what Sunday school, your house, and youth group are for. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Lady Macaiodh][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue']Now, this is quite interesting. "Trappings"... an interesting way to put it. ... No one in public school is forced to pray, nor gather around the flagpole. ...[/COLOR][/quote]
Do you know what the word "trappings" even means? It doesn't in this context mean that it "traps people in a situation" or anything along those lines. Trappings means characteristic or symbolic signs.

Anyway my post refers to prayer in class, not before or after school. Though allowing prayer on school property at all tends to polarize students to some degree. That whole thing about being able to leave the room if people are praying is just ignorant. Leaving the room will be much more alienating and troublesome for the person if he/she leaves rather than stays, simply because of the inescapable fact that religious kids aren't as tolerant of non-religious kids as they would ideally be, especially if the latter make a point of caring about it.

[Semjaza]

It really doesn't matter what I think about the subject as that's not even my point. I don't remember ever talking about what effects spirituality has on anyone or how important it is for someone's well being. If anything, I think you're just connecting dots that I didn't even make.

The point is that obviously state and church are supposed to be seperate entities. The school administration, setting aside time [i]during school hours[/i] and [i]in place of curriculum[/i] is something that just isn't supposed to be allowed, regardless of any of my own opinion on the subject. Calling it meditation time doesn't magically change that most of it will be geared towards time set aside for religious practices for a good portion of people. It's like telling people that believe in religions to pray and everyone else to make busy for ten minutes. You do realize how much crap a public school would get from athiestic and other non-religious groups if that time was even set aside?

Public schools are not supposed to advocate that, end of story. What students do before or after school time is their own business in the eyes of that school, but certainly not during hours. What I'm saying isn't something I'm saying because I hate religion or some other nonsense, it's because that is how public school systems have come to work.

The main reason I said any of it was because I felt the initial post had some implication to it that Christian religions were getting some sort of break while others were not. I was wanting to make it clear that in the eyes of a public school administator or superindendant, or what have you, religion is religion and that's all there is to it. There'd be no reason for Chibihorsewoman not to be allowed to mediitate before school, just like there's no reason to not let kids pray before school. The same reason why there'd be no reason for the school to allow [i]either[/i] of them to do it during hours.

[Panda]

As long as there are tests there will be prayer in school.

I think people should be able to pray/meditate as they feel fit as long as their views aren't forced upon others. If it is off campus, on their own time, that is there own business. There was a group of Christian kids who would gather together durning lunch and have bible study off campus. That was on their own time, they had an open invite to anyone who wanted to join, but you weren't forced to go have lunch with them. That was fine with me.

I do have a question. The LDS kids had seminary off campus, but got credit towards graduation. No other religion has a course like that. You can't go off campus to study any other religion for credits. I thought was unusual was how the LDS kids got credits for their studies? This was a regular class that they went too. If someone can explain this to me I would appreciate it. Why do they get their religious class and no other religion does? I always wondered about that.

I personally don't have a problem with off campus religious studies. I do have a problem if they forced everyone to take time out of the school day to say an organized prayer based on one religion.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE=Panda]
I do have a question. The LDS kids had seminary off campus, but got credit towards graduation. No other religion has a course like that. You can't go off campus to study any other religion for credits. I thought was unusual was how the LDS kids got credits for their studies? This was a regular class that they went too. If someone can explain this to me I would appreciate it. Why do they get their religious class and no other religion does? I always wondered about that.[/QUOTE]

Oh the injustice of it all!!!

Some people get credit for studying Spanish. Some people study some obscure African language in their own time and get no credit because it's not offered by the school. How's that work for ya?

Basically: schools can't offer a class on everything.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Lady Macaiodh][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]I hate to say it to you of all people, but I disagree. Who is to say that spiritual well-being is less important than "intellect"? Principles, morals, and standards are directly responsible for the good in this world. Why shouldn't a few minutes be taken to explore something more esoteric? Is this all there is -- the mere physical existance in which we live?

I see meditation as an exploration of something that science cannot yet define.

Education? What makes you think that meditation is not a form of education?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Holy crap, I must have missed this post during my last reply. Ok let's do this one sentence at a time. First of all, don't confuse knowledge with intellect. Intellect is paramount to anything, and certainly spiritual well-being is no exception. I won't explain what intellect means, just look it up in the dictionary.
Second, "principles, morals, and standards" are likewise responsible for the bad in this world, so don't try to put them on some pedestal of idealism.
In public school, we explore both the "mere physical existence in which we live" (which I wouldn't call mere, but whatever), and "something esoteric" -- that's what english and literature classes are for. And prayer is not "exploring something esoteric" as far as school is concerned.

Meditation can be an exploration of anything, as it's limited to your [i]thoughts[/i]. See it however you like, but there aren't any arbitrary restrictions on it past what I said.

Meditation is not a form of education because you can't teach anybody through it. "So we meditated for a while, and I learned the way a bill gets passed through Congress." Uh-huh. Meditation is for organizing thoughts maybe, and therefore coming to understand something better, but it's not a form of education. Education in the sense we're discussing it involves more than one party.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]Do you know what the word "trappings" even means? It doesn't in this context mean that it "traps people in a situation" or anything along those lines. Trappings means characteristic or symbolic signs.

[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Okay. I get what you mean.

It's just that "trappings" implies exactly that... some sort of prison that must be escaped from.

It's hard for me to be objective about this, anyway. After all, I went to Catholic school my whole life and hated the things that were forced down my throat.

[b]Semjaza[/b] -- I certainly did not mean that any certain religion or philosophy should be taught as fact. I simply meant that I would like to see our students as being more well-rounded. Spirituality is such an important concept... it effects every desicsion we will ever make. All I'd like to see is students being more informed.

Also, the line between church and state has become so blurred that it almost doesn't exist anymore. Just look at the whole gay marriage thing.

The term "seperation of church and state" means that the government should have no say whatsoever in the matter of spirituality. So much controversy is involved in the term.

Another thing -- I don't consider spirituality to have the same meaning as "church" at all.

Mostly I think of this from an historical perspective. All religions played an integral part in their culture's development. I'm not saying [i]at all[/i] that there should be forced prayer time (which would obviously ostracize those who do not want to take part), but only that there is great wisdom to gain, and that this country would most likely be better off if youth of america were more spiritually well-rounded. [/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Transtic Nerve]Maybe it has something to do with the fact it happens on school property.

According to the law, schools and military have different set of rules than public grounds. [/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]The military's rules on religion are if it's in the military chaplin's handbook, it's a recognized religion and should be allowed to be practiced.

However, there are always prayers done during military functions. (I could tell you a great story about the last 'Holiday' party I went to with Lincoln) Including the Signal Ball where we said the Pledge, the National Anthem and a small prayer. I'm sorry, but I hadn't actually done the Pledge of Alligiance since 9th grade. However I guess you also have to do this before a movie on post. The prayer was a bit intrusive though. It's like reguardless of the handbook, any religion other than Christianity isn't acknowledged.

The military has strange ways of showing support for practicioners of other religions. My husband has had his car photographed by his first seargeant and told he needs Jesus. So yeah, the military definately has different rules.[/color]

[Semjaza]

Well, I can't really vouch for what you (Deb) or I or anyone else here thinks of spirtuality... Schools can't really throw a concept into the works because you or I think spirituality is an important aspect of someone's personality. There's too many people who would jump at it as religion in schools.... Or at least, I think so, based on people I've met in the past heh. Especially if they used that specific term.

With the way you're meaning the word, I'd have to say that schools are already doing this sort of thing. There's awareness programs, counseling and various classes I've taken throughout my school years that I feel were an attempt to make people more understanding of themselves, society and others. By your definition, I think you could say that these classes helped work on and reflect the spirituality of the individuals in class... unless I'm misunderstanding you. I see no issue with that side of it.

However, originally, I didn't really think this was part of the issue brought up in this thread. I only mentioned "meditation" along with prayer because that's apparently what Chibihorsewoman and other pagans do in their religion. I didn't mean it in the plan old "sit and reflect on things" way...

So, I don't know. I didn't mean the word in the same you seem to be in your original post. Before you posted, what I had read previously really just dealt with actual prayer itself, so that's what my posts were based on and that was it lol.

In other words, I think we're basically on the same page anyway.

[Arcadia]

[size=1]In middle school there used to be a "moment of silence" during homeroom every morning. I played with my shoelaces, but there were other kids who prayed or meditated or what have you. No one told us we had to do anything, except keep quiet. It didn't really bother me all that much because it wasn't really taking away from regular school time. Especially when you consider that any form of homeroom is a waste of time anyway.

I still don't care either way. Obviously, nobody's going to force me to pray if I don't want to. As TN said, it's more of a personal thing anyway. You do that on your own time, in your own way. If it doesn't take away from regular scheduled class and it doesn't harm anyone else in any way, shape, or form, then I don't see what the big deal is.[/size]

[IceWolfEyes]

There should be no set time during the day for prayer in school. Some people pray, some don't, most don't give a crap one way or the other. Students have plenty of time to do their own thing before and after school hours. In fact, at my school, there is a club for this sort of thing. It meets once a week during lunch. No one is forced to join, and they don't get a credit for being there.

[QUOTE]As long as there are tests there will be prayer in school.[/QUOTE]

I was going to post this, oh well. The first time I saw it, it was on a plaque in my teacher’s classroom. It didn't bother me then, still doesn't. Rather insightful, I thought.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]There is one thing I would like to add.

There is no such thing as an "official" or certain" time to pray.

God is in all of us, in every heartbeat, tree, waterfall, animal, in a single strand of human hair, in sex, animal skin -- hell, he's even in a baby's crappy diapers.

Why should we question this (even though that's what I did)? If one wants to communicate with their higher power, there is nothing that can stop it.

Sit on the subway and close your eyes. Ignore the drunk that keeps falling asleep on your shoulder. Look at the little children who are the most beautiful things you've ever seen but whose mother doesn't notice. Notice the man who lost his arm through Napalm. Remember the old man who rides the bus all day long because he has nowhere else to go and just wants to stay warm.

We can close our eyes to the 13 year old crack dealer who stands on the corner in the freezing cold because his mother can't pay her bills. But we shouldn't.

This is all prayer to me. When God moves your heart and stirs it, that is prayer. When we feel empathy and compassion, that is prayer. When we get to the point where we'd sacrifice anything to alieviete suffering, that is prayer.

So I suppose it doesn't matter if we take a certain time out of the day to recite emotionless prayers that we were taught to us in Sunday school. The real prayer cries out from our soul and begs to be heard. Maybe God hears it, maybe he doesn't. But what does it matter? We are the ones who make the real difference.

So I guess, that as for school, we should be able to look to the sun or the flowers or even the goddamn teacher and be able to pray. God hears us whether we say it out loud, or we whisper it to ourselves.

Sometimes I have felt the presence of this thing called God. That's how I know he's there. And I know that many times, he doesn't seem to listen or answer. It's feels good, though, to let it out. I've found that God never says "no". He only says "not yet".[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Yikes. Ok getting us back on topic... sorta...

When I was in high school there was suddenly this huge "I agree with Justin" craze where people started wearing t-shirts that said that phrase. It meant they wanted prayer in school or something of the sort (I didn't look into it much). Anyway eventually it polarized students to the point (not too much, but enough to warrant attention) that the shirts were no longer allowed. I think that's what organized prayer in schools can sometimes cause, and that's why I'd be against it, if only because of that. Sure, individual prayer won't do much, but organized (and school-sanctioned) prayer on school property can just cause too many problems among the student body, [i]especially[/i] if it's suddenly (or heck, even gradually) introduced.