Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners

[Dagger]

[quote=The Washington Post]Arab countries reacted with rage and revulsion yesterday after images of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners were broadcast around the world.

Bush administration and U.S. military officials scrambled to contain the furor and to assuage concerns among allies. The photos showed U.S. troops celebrating as prisoners were sexually humiliated and otherwise abused.

"I shared a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated," President Bush said in a Rose Garden appearance with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin. "Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. And so I didn't like it one bit." Bush said the abuses will be investigated and the perpetrators "will be taken care of."

Analysts said the strong response by Bush appeared directed less at an American audience than at an international audience skeptical about U.S. intentions in Iraq. The United States and Britain are struggling to meet a June 30 deadline for a transfer of sovereignty in Iraq, and the images threatened to undermine already tenuous international cooperation.

U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "deeply disturbed" by the photos, and the British government called the matter appalling, though later it confirmed it was investigating allegations of abuse by British soldiers.

Arab countries were more strident, with the Arab League calling the mistreatment "savage acts" and Arab broadcast networks describing the incidents in similar terms. Arab newspapers and students and even a member of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council said the images could be pivotal in turning Iraqis against the United States.

"This is the logic and modus operandi of imperialist conquest and colonial occupation," the Tehran Times wrote. "The pictures of torture, brutality and sexual sadism are representative of the entire criminal operation being conducted in Iraq."

The photos, first broadcast Wednesday on CBS's "60 Minutes II," showed hooded prisoners piled in a human pyramid and simulating sex acts, as U.S. soldiers celebrated. One photo showed a hooded prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his hands; the prisoner was told, falsely, that he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box.

"It provides a graphic portrayal of many of the worst impressions that much of the world has about America," said Andrew Kohut, who, as director of the Pew Research Center, has polled extensively in Arab and European countries. "It's red meat to large numbers of people all around the world who are increasingly anti-American and don't think we represent the things Americans pride themselves on."

Foreign policy experts said the photos could cause lasting damage to U.S. efforts. "It is a disaster," said Michael Rubin, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and until earlier this year a political adviser to the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority. "Five or six people have managed to soil the reputation of American soldiers worldwide."

Arab commentators said the images were particularly damaging because of Muslim restrictions on nudity. The photos also invited parallels to Saddam Hussein's regime because the abuse occurred in Abu Ghraib, a prison used by Hussein for torture.

Without detailing the abuses, the military brought criminal charges in March against six soldiers over incidents, allegedly the ones in the photos, at the prison in November and December 2003. Charges included indecent acts with another person, maltreatment, battery, dereliction of duty and aggravated assault. The military has also recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers involved in running the prison.

In addition, the commander of the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, is being sent to Iraq to take over the coalition detention facilities. And the CIA said yesterday that its inspector general has two long-standing probes into abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, including one investigation into a prisoner's death. But a CIA spokesman said there is "no direct evidence" connecting the CIA to the incidents in the photographs.

In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a military spokesman, said he tried to limit the damage before the CBS show on Wednesday. "I talked with the Arab press two nights ago, before the '60 Minutes' show was broadcast because I wanted the Arab press to understand and possibly communicate to their fellow Iraqis a couple of key points," he said. Kimmitt said the U.S. military is "absolutely appalled" by the photos and that the perpetrators are facing criminal charges. He also said authorities believe the incident involves fewer than 20 of about 8,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

"Please don't for a moment think that that's the entire U.S. Army or the U.S. military, because it's not," Kimmitt said in remarks directed at Iraqis. "And if you think those soldiers that are walking up and down the street approve of what they saw, condone what they saw or excuse what they saw, I can tell you that I've got 150,000 other American soldiers who feel as appalled and disappointed as I do at the actions of those few."[/quote]

This is pretty horrific, and I'm afraid that it could have serious ramifications both at home and abroad. Obviously not all Iraqis feel the same about the American occupation--some seem to be satisfied with their current situation, whereas others are unhappy enough to take up arms or even go on suicide missions. However, these photos are bound to have a negative impact, particularly on people who never thought highly of the U.S. forces.

I'm interested in reading your opinions and reactions.

~Dagger~

[Ryu_Sakura]

[FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=DarkOrange]I know, I saw 60minutes. But that's horrid! They're human too! How could people do that? I mean [U][B][I]Hello![/I][/B][/U] put yourself in their minds, hear what they think and feel, then transfer it to yourself. Get it? It's like, 'Oh look some prisoners from Irac, let's torture them!' Now let's alter that... *blip* It's like, 'Oh look some Americans, let's torture them!' Jeeze, that's discrimination! Both ways! Just because someone is different, or they are prisoners, doesn't mean you can take matters into your own hands and *coughs* make them do that stuff, it's not right, only if the law said so, and even then it's not right![/COLOR][/FONT]

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1]This incident has pissed me off like you wouldn't believe. As a military brat, I've been around the army all my life, and I tend to take the very rare occurances similar to this a little personally. But this just makes me want to break things.

We trusted them to do their duty, and what do they do? They abuse their own prisoners. That's disgusting and unforgivable. I want to see all those involved discharged, tried in a military tribunal, and stored in the same cells with the people they abused, while their guards turn a blind eye.

I can't even articulate myself well on thiss ubject; I'm just so pissed...[/color][/size]

[HetepKa]

[I][FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=3][COLOR=green]Even if not American or Iraki, that really made me mad, and really diturbed me.
I was never a big fan of torturing prisoners, even if they want to take over the world, and make us all eat blue meat; they're still human, and deserve to be treated as such!!

And, the militaries? I mean, aren't they supposed to be honored, be respectful, help people [B]WITHOUT[/B] discrimination, and [B]SAVE[/B] lives (Well, depends...) ?? What kind of world do we live in?? Where even the militaries, honored soldiers, fighting for their "nation" (Or, in my opinion, Irak's case, "nation's interest" )[B]TORTURE[/B] inocent humans?? It's unforgivable and inexcusable!!! Even if you're military, and those were direct orders from a general or something, and that guy lives in a country you're fighting in a war... [B]IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE TO BEAT HIM WITH A RIFFLE-BUTT!!!![/B]

And, I agree with Dagger IX1, this WILL have serious consecuences, in the US, Irak, and abroad; it will also change the way some Irakis feel about Americans occupating some of their territory; even if not all of the American troops act as if not human. [B]NOT[/B] only American troops, maybe, Irakis can also feel disturbed if troops from [B]OTHER[/B] countries occupy their territory.

It disturbed me so much, I hardly slept last night because of it! It's soo inhuman!!
I hope no more soldiers of [B]ANY[/B] country, do such a horrid, digusting thing again!!

HetepKa "Peace to all" :angel:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/I]

[Guest cloricus]

It just shows how undisciplined your army is, that goes for the English troops involved too, it disgusts me.

Also the allegations that the soldiers involve were just doing what they were told sickens me at the American interrogation methods; or 'softening them up' and to think this could be happening constantly to the (mostly) innocent men in camp 'x-ray' in Cuba.

Is now a good time to bring up comparisons?
So far the Iraq jails are fuller than they were under Sadam, the amount of dead Iraq's (who were non combatants) is up to around 10833, they are being tortured in the ways sadam used to employ and there is no stability in the country.
I'm not implying anything, just laying down some facts.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Cloricus, normally I do not have a problem with your opinions on many topics. And [u]for the most part[/u], I am not upset about your above post in the slightest but do [b]shut up[/b] about [b]America and England's army.[/b] Don't you dare act like you and your private army is superior to anyone's, because I don't see you risking your *** out there everyday. And on a more factual basis, how [i]can[/i] you make a generalization about an entire group of people based on actions of a select few. That's like saying every single Muslim in the entire world is a terrorist! Don't you see, it just isn't correct to make generalizations like that.

However, I agree that the excuses of "I was doing what I was told to" are unforgivable and unexcuseable. I heard on the news that one soldier did it for the opposite reason, because no one todl himn what he was supposed to do, which is even worse in my opinion.

I am disgusted with those few soldiers who think they can get away with such acts. It soils the name of some of the best young men and women out there, and makes us look worse to the Iraqis, whose suport is much needed right now. Sometimes I wonder why the world hasn't bombed us to oblivion for ugly actions like this. I'm ready to smack those soldiers myself.

The damage is done, but I seriously hope that the message of "America doesn't condone these acts" gets across to the Iraqis. I don't want America to be thought of as worse than it already is. I don't think we can really afford for any of the Iraqis to be angrier than they already are with us.[/color]

[Albane]

I'm just now hearing this for the first time.
I can't belive that anyone who's suposed to be "helping" would do such a thing.
Even as my mom screams "Some one's trying to frame us why would we do such a thing?" I'm just filled with to much disgust to do much else then spit.

I'm a very patriotic person but when something like this happens I just can't belive that the very same people who did this are (a very small bit) of the army that's [U]suposed[/U] to represent the US. How does our country come off because of this?
As sadistic (censored) that's all...even though times are rough it should [B]never[/B] have come to this.

I know that there are several more men and women serving to protect our country and who would do anything to uphold law and order but I can't help but feel that this little act has dug our grave even deeper. If I'm right, we're in for one loooooong war...

Edit: [QUOTE]the amount of dead Iraq's (who were non combatants) is up to around 10833[/QUOTE]

@ who ever made wrote what's in the quote:

Ok...first off, I'm trying very hard not to be offended with your last post but it's not working. Don't go blaming the US for all of these dead Irqis when we aren't the ones setting off road side bombs or launching missiles or jumping around corners with AK-47's. Who's responsible for the loss of those innocent and hopful lives? To me it's very obvious. Which brings me back around to what I was saying earlier. If we're getting at least 3 American (and any other countries who are fighting to protect the law) citizens a day already then how many more do you think will be targeted because of this little incident?

This goes out to those soldiers who did the action in question:

I have been very greatful for what the US army has done UP UNTIL TODAY. You have probably just doomed a whole bunch of your comrades...nice job. (In case no one knows I was being extremely sarcastic with the "nice job").

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]This is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions. You aren't allowed to show pictures or torture POWs so I'd love to know why the United State's Miliutary and the Royal Marines thought they could get away with doing something like this?

Why did they suddenly think they were better than the Iraqi soldiers who are doing El knows what to their POWs? Do they feel justyfied in some ungodly sense? By they I mean the coalition troops who have proved that we're not only hu7mans but soem of us are barbaric humans and I shudder to think of what ramifications this will have on the troops over there who have no idea what is going on or have nothing to do with these problems.[/color]

[quote name='albain']I have been very greatful for what the US army has done UP UNTIL TODAY. You have probably just doomed a whole bunch of your comrades...nice job. (In case no one knows I was being extremely sarcastic with the "nice job").[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]My husband is over in the Red Zone in Iraq with the 1st Cav Division out of Ft.Hood TX. I spoke with him around 2:00PM EST this after noon and he mentioned nothing of this incident, I forgot about it completely until this post came up. Most of the people who aren't involved in this incident know nothing about what is going on outside of their own camp but they will undoubtedly receive some sort of retribution sooner or later. I hope not, but that's just the way things go.

As for the other person who thinks that the fact that abuse of any POW by either side of the battle is correct, you're wrong. Read the top of my reply as to why.

I'm not saying that we should go after them with plastic forks when they come after us with AK-47s, which BTW they're allowed to own. I'm saying that violation of the Geneva Convention by either side is going to go to military court (or something of the sort)

Well, that should be all for now, let's see what else I can say later[/color]

[Merlin Matrix]

Let me get this striaght. Okay we all remeber what they did to prisoners of war from our side don't we? I think I remeber a young female army soildier that was raped and beaten by their soilders. I take the veiw that if they show no mercy then give no mercy. to quote Casino "If you came at him with a bat, he came at you with a knife. If you came at him with a knife, he came at you with a gun. If you came at him with a gun you better hope to god you kill him." I mean seriously we're at war with these people, it's not like they're shooting teddy bears at us and vica versa. Guess what else guys I say this and I am a democrate, isn't that funny. I'll I have to say on the matter is; we knew when Bush was going to become President we should have been prepared for any hard-times up ahead. For all those who say that they didn't think anything bad was going to happen within the time of his adminstration is an idiot.

Peace Love Dope
Miquel Anthony Cremeans

[Albane]

Hey, you know what pal? Despite what you belive there are some people who don't want the US to look like *****. I for one love this country and anyone who represents us should at least try to stick to the military code. Now we have a group of people who think they can do what ever the hell they want. I agree that it was horrible (to say the least) what happened to that woman and part of me agrees with you but what do you want us to say? "Nuke them all"? I don't think so, that's not American. It's probably a good thing that I'm not in the military because I might just snap and do exactly what you're suggesting but I admire those men and women who despite the atrocities done against the US still manage to control their actions.

Those people are the real heroes and you'd better belive me when I say that I shead a tear every time I hear that one of our soldiers has died.

[Merlin Matrix]

Laws, Code, Morals? you're military right? Let me tell you something bud I have military family and I have heard the stories that have told about World War Two, Korea and Vietnam. Oh yeah and I'm Irish too so I was told how all my ancestor's where treated during the English rule and the Troubles by the damn "British Elite", so rules of conduct in war is a laugh to me. And let me tell you something else; the ones we are fighting agianist don't give fiddler's fart about rules of war and engagement. You are the enemy to them because you are the Infidel, the American, and any way of humiliating you or killing you is good for them. So when you get to Iraq and if you return, tell me what you think of the Rules of War, because once the bullets start to fly, that stuff goes out the door. Yes what they did is wrong, yes it is a disgrace to the U.S military and to the country, but war is an ugly thing that we cannot make pretty. I'm not trying to say, " hey I hate this country anyway, so these guys should be given a smack on the wrists." What I am trying to say is, "Stop being surprized, shocked and shaken about this people. This is war, this is for real not Hollywood. People lose thier morals in places like this, turn different. Court martial the fools and get on with life." And I am not one of those hair brains that say nuke them all, I'm one of those idiots that would want to weed out the ones who did it (and not forced to do it) and kill them. cut and dry. My veiw on it is "Dropping a nuke would kill innocents but a 33 cent bullet to the head is a lot cheaper than a world court trial."

Peace Love Dope
Miquel Anthony Cremeans

[Shinken]

Let me get this straight: Since the Iraqis tortured and belittled our soldiers, it is absolutely fine for our soldiers to do the same? I disagree.

Lowering ourselves to such a dishonorable level, purely for revenge, is not justifiable, no matter what. Torturing people who are at one's mercy is a horrible thing to do, and yes, I do recognize that the Iraqi military has done this to an extent that nobody will ever know how far it went. But we should not have to stoop down to such tactics. It's deplorable!

Look at Saddam's regime. We constantly criticize and denounce their torture tactics, and yet, when a few of our soldiers decide to go morally AWOL and do the same to prisoners, people say that they deserve it. Why? Aren't they human beings as well? No matter what a person has done, as Sting said, "we have the same biology".

Also, I hope that people don't go all anti-military because of the actions of a few. I have a cousin in Iraq, and a good friend of mine has her brother in Iraq as well. So, I obviously have respect for the military. Just not for the people who did this.

(I apologize if this post seems somewhat unfocused. I'm somewhat tired.)

[Harry]

It's sad that this has happened and it honestly was bound to happen. It's annoying that the FBI, CIA, and other knew about it and let it go on too. Hopefully all involved will be severely disciplined, not just the soldiers. Also just ignore cloricus people.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I agree that this is something that should not have happened. It's tragic and shameful on the part of the U.S. military. But Merlin Matrix and others are right about it not being a surprise at all. Things like this happen in war. They always have, and they always will. War is quite dehumanizing.

What's bad is that no efforts were taken to prevent such an incident. [i]Because[/i] something like this should come as no surprise, there should have been something done to keep it from happening.

I'm not outraged or appalled or anything (while I am angered), because like people said war is dehumanizing and also because if I were one of those soldiers, I'd probably just have shot all the prisoners in the face if they so much as looked at me funny.

So, yes, it's a very horrible incident, but I think it shouldn't be allocated as much attention as it has been.

[James]

[color=#707875]I think it's pretty obvious that this incident shouldn't cast doubt on the entire allied force as a whole; in the same way that we shouldn't use the acts of one person in a group, to somehow place a generalization on everyone else in that same group. So let's be logical about that point, first and foremost.

And Cloricus, don't even start talking about America and Britain having undisciplined armies. Haven't you heard about the hazing that goes on in the Australian Navy? Don't be such an obvious hypocrite; you're just using this as an opportunity to launch yet another criticism at foreign countries. It's pretty unjustified and you know it.

The truth is, [i]every [/i]military force in the world will have a percentage of people who do the wrong thing. There is no way to avoid that, no matter how disciplined you are. Some people are just going to go out there and break the law, or they're going to become easily traumatized by war and do things that they wouldn't otherwise do. It is ridiculous to assume that this is some wide spread systemic problem, when we've seen no evidence of that whatsoever.

Of course this is a horrible incident...and those involved should be punished severely. But let's [i]not [/i]turn this into some kind of ridiculous attempt to get into some mud slinging. That doesn't help anyone.[/color]

[Chocobo Gene]

I do agree with James, we shouldn't let the actions of a small group of peole to judge the rest of the alliance forces, most of the soldiers over there are just there to do a job, and wouldn't imagine on doing anything like that, most of them are just trying to live.

But I think the actions of these soldiers were discusting, and it wasn't just American soldiers, I saw on the news yesterday, that British soldiers were doing the sam,e it was discusting, how can people do this!?, they are mean't to be treated with at least respect, dosn' it break the Treaty of Geneva or somethinh like that?

In all, I think the soldiers who commited these grave offfences should all be given dis-honorable discharges, but we must not chastize the others that are doing a brilliant job over there, in extremly difficult circumstances

[Dan L]

Merlin Matrix:

Your idea of mercy is incredibly flawed; "if they show no mercy, then give no mercy".

Where exactly do you suppose that mercy comes from? Mercy is to withhold something which somebody deserves (as opposed to grace, which is to give something good which somebody doesn't deserve).

What you are referring to is favour- "they've shown us favour despite being our enemies; we'll do the same": it works on a two-way basis where both sides treat each other well on the condition that they get treated well themselves.

Mercy is about forgiveness- it has [i]nothing[/i] to do with whether or not you have already been shown mercy, because it is about [i]forgetting[/i] what you have had done wrong to you.

So don't go blabbing on that mercy should be shown when you're given it, cos that's just not how it works.

[Albane]

[QUOTE]you're military right? [/QUOTE]

Sorry, I mis-typed. What I meant to say was "it's a good thing that I'm nopt in the military because I might just snap and do what you're suggesting".

Sorry for the misunderstanding and I know that war changes a person for the worse. Both of my grandpas were in wars, I know that much but saddly I haven't been told which ones. Neither of them have been the same since they went to war according to my grandma.

Of course war is a hideous thing that can never be beautified by sayings such as "We're freeing these people from a mad man" either way there's bound to be death and when people on "your side" of a war are killed it gets benieth your skin.
That's why I said it's a good thing that I'm not in the military because I'm really bad with dealing with my anger when I see a guy hit a girl but if I saw some one [B]shoot[/B] any soldier let alone a female soldier I would almost definetly go ballistic and put a bullet in the head of every "enemy" I see without thinking of taking prisoners or what ever they call that now.

This is a horrible ordeal but what we're doing right now (on these forums) isn't helping squat and eventually we might end up tearing each other apart over something that we can't control. I don't know about you but I'd rather not do that.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Chocobo Gene]I do agree with James, we shouldn't let the actions of a small group of peole to judge the rest of the alliance forces, most of the soldiers over there are just there to do a job, and wouldn't imagine on doing anything like that, most of them are just trying to live.

But I think the actions of these soldiers were discusting, and it wasn't just American soldiers, I saw on the news yesterday, that British soldiers were doing the sam,e it was discusting, how can people do this!?, they are mean't to be treated with at least respect, dosn' it break the Treaty of Geneva or somethinh like that?

In all, I think the soldiers who commited these grave offfences should all be given dis-honorable discharges, but we must not chastize the others that are doing a brilliant job over there, in extremly difficult circumstances[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet] The coalition soldiers who are not involved in these events most likely don't know anything about these events even that they're happening since news over there is so slow. Example-My husband told me on Wednesday that he heard about that former NFL player who had been killed in Afghanistan [i]last[/i] Week. If it's not happening on your area-or for that matter in your Company or on your team (a team consists of five or six soldiers including a team cheif) you don't know about it until a week after the event has taken place.

Most soldiers over there are concentrating on surviving their tours of duty so they can get back to their families and their lives outside of the military. THey keep hoping that the most exciting thing in their day is when the truck comes to clean out the port-a-johns. Or when they get a b.b. gun waved in their face by a kid who wants to sell it for $5.00. They don't want to jeopordize their careers or their lives for the sake of being stupid.

And yes, as I've mentioned before, this does violate the Geneva Conventions because US and British troops not only tortured POWs but took pictures of them and they've been shown in the news. You're not supposed to do either. So yes most likely they'll go up against a military court and receive a dishonorable discharge on their discharge papers and their actions in Iraq will follow them for the rest of their lives and everytime they try to apply for a job they'll have to put dishonorable discharge on their applications for the reason they're not in the military.

But as far as I know everyone else over there (in the red zone where my husband is atleast) is doing their job the way they are supposed to do it and hoping they clean out the port-a-johns on a regular basis[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']And Cloricus, don't even start talking about America and Britain having undisciplined armies. Haven't you heard about the hazing that goes on in the Australian Navy? Don't be such an obvious hypocrite; you're just using this as an opportunity to launch yet another criticism at foreign countries. It's pretty unjustified and you know it.[/color][/quote]

I totally love it James. :D

Your response is the totally unjustified attack here. I at no point mentioned the Australian army, at the time of writing I wasn't even thinking about it, I kept on topic through my post. I was very disgusted at the (now disproved) assault that the Australian troops were meant to have carried out in East Timor, and I made that known at the time so your claim is unfounded. Plus I respect the British army no end and am really saddened at this happening from some of their troops, I would have expected something better... (And I hope those photos are fake.)

Now my point, if they are allowed to do that or don't have the ability to step away from it they are undisciplined and that is a bad reflection on their training and army, no matter how big a problem it is it did happen and those are the two factors that should have stopped it.

Or would you like to be the man that had all his front teeth smashed out?

[James]

[QUOTE=cloricus]I totally love it James. :D

Your response is the totally unjustified attack here. I at no point mentioned the Australian army, at the time of writing I wasn't even thinking about it, I kept on topic through my post. I was very disgusted at the (now disproved) assault that the Australian troops were meant to have carried out in East Timor, and I made that known at the time so your claim is unfounded. Plus I respect the British army no end and am really saddened at this happening from some of their troops, I would have expected something better... (And I hope those photos are fake.)

Now my point, if they are allowed to do that or don't have the ability to step away from it they are undisciplined and that is a bad reflection on their training and army, no matter how big a problem it is it did happen and those are the two factors that should have stopped it.

Or would you like to be the man that had all his front teeth smashed out?[/QUOTE][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]Wait a minute, Cloricus. You've just embarassed yourself here.

I mentioned [i]hazing[/i]. I said nothing about East Timor.

I was talking about the hazing that new recruits go through in the Navy, specifically the incidents that took place on various Australian submarines. So on the first point, you are completely [i]missing [/i]the point. Had you actually paid attention to what I'd written, this would not have occurred.

Secondly, you flatly mentioned that the incidents in Iraq are a result of America having an undisciplined army; this is a broad, sweeping generalization that is simply unfounded. You and I both know that we're talking about a minority, rather than a majority. But you took the opportunity to make a very general comment, which isn't terribly accurate on the whole.

No matter how great the training or discipline is, there will always be someone who is going to break the rules. It's interesting to contrast this recent event with the incredibly humane way that the American troops dealt with various Iraqi detainees (thousands of them) who surrendered during the initial invasion. To point to this one instance and say that it represents a break down of training and discipline, is simply not accurate or realistic. I shouldn't have to even say that; it should be obvious.

I suggest that you read my post a bit more carefully before you reply next time. Not only have you answered a point that I wasn't even making, but your response bares little relevance to [i]anything [/i]I mentioned at all.[/color]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]This keeps getting worse and worse.

I feel like things have spiraled out of control, and the loops just keep getting wider. This is so bad for America. I feel like crying. Of course we know that those few soldiers don't represent the American army. Yet this is just another way for extremists to blast American efforts in Iraq, not to mention George Bush.

I'm really not liking him. But I wouldn't know what to do about it either. Help us, God. [/color]

[Guest cloricus]

Honestly James, you are now going far away from the topic and if what you say in your last post is true then your original post rebutting mine had nothing to do with what I said. (This makes my last response null.)

First off I have nothing to be embarrassed about, if I do please explain and point out why.

[quote]I mentioned hazing. I said nothing about East Timor.[/quote]
The topic is "Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners" and that is what my post addressed, I assumed in your response that you were talking about general abuse of people by the Australian Army. If you were not and were (as you now say) talking about general lack of discipline I miss understood and apologise but I fail to see how this, which is even further from the topic, has anything to do with my first post which you have still not justified your 'put down' of. It was an opinion, not an attack on other countries just for the hell of it.

[quote]But you took the opportunity to make a very general comment, which isn't terribly accurate on the whole.[/quote]This is where you should reread my post; an army is ultimately responsible for the training, screening (of personalities/actions) and watching that troops obey their orders and do nothing 'wrong'. This did not happen, which I'm sure that you can observe as people have been beaten and humiliated, this is the fault of the respective army?s in general. I believe my comments were founded.

Also I was unaware that the highest moderator at this boards would come down so hard on 'one' generalisation even though sweeping statements like this are being made by others in other controversial threads without comment. (Eg gun control.) I will think again before adding an opinion to a debate here in future.

[quote]To point to this one instance and say that it represents a break down of training and discipline, is simply not accurate or realistic. I shouldn't have to even say that; it should be obvious.[/quote]As obvious of the pictures of piled up men who are naked, as blatant as the bloodied bodies, as clear as a terror boot flying towards the face of a random Iraqi?

[b]It happened, it should not have happened, it should not be justified; it should be corrected.[/b]

Now, if it was a well disciplined and over all 'good' force would you not think that at least one of the people involved in the beatings would have stood up, or at least as soon as they saw it happen go up the chain of command and get it stopped ASAP. If you say that did happen then I will question how so many photos of separate incidence exist.

Also the military should be removing these elements if it cannot instil enough discipline to control them, though from the last news report I heard none of the people involved have been dishonourably discharged. Does this say something about the practices of the American army? (The British have already taken strong action from a statement I read earlier today.)

[quote]I suggest that you read my post a bit more carefully before you reply next time. Not only have you answered a point that I wasn't even making, but your response bares little relevance to [i]anything [/i]I mentioned at all.[/quote]I would ask that once some one says that your opinion on their post is incorrect (or not what they wanted to convey) and then outlines it in more clear text that you do not continue to hound them and accept what they are 'really' trying to say.

As when you do not you put them in a position where they have to defend themselves and that response can put them in a position for you to ban which I think is unfair in a debate. (Like now.)

Please accept I was stating my general disgust at how the army?s involved allowed this to happen in the first place and there lack of swift and harsh response. At the time I did not know about the English response and was unhappy with the American?s (lack of harsh) actions.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]Just drop it people. When you two go at it, it ruins the whole entire thread.

What I want to know is, who was dumb enough to take the pictures in the first place? And how did the media get them? It seems like it must've been other soldiers. Civilians? I don't know.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=cloricus]Honestly James, you are now going far away from the topic and if what you say in your last post is true then your original post rebutting mine had nothing to do with what I said. (This makes my last response null.)

First off I have nothing to be embarrassed about, if I do please explain and point out why.[/quote][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]I will illustrate why below, in response to your points.[/color][quote=cloricus]

The topic is "Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners" and that is what my post addressed, I assumed in your response that you were talking about general abuse of people by the Australian Army. If you were not and were (as you now say) talking about general lack of discipline I miss understood and apologise but I fail to see how this, which is even further from the topic, has anything to do with my first post which you have still not justified your 'put down' of. It was an opinion, not an attack on other countries just for the hell of it.[/quote]
[color=#707875]I will explain, if it was not clear enough in the beginning.

This topic is about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. So what are we discussing in general terms? We are talking about this specific incident, as well as discussing the conduct of the military in general. Obviously these two topics are related, so that's the first point.

The second point is that, in [i]your [/i]post, you cited the idea that this situation has occurred because the American military is undisciplined. You implied that this sort of thing doesn't happen elsewhere, based on the fact that your comments were specifically targeted at the Americans; once again, you used this incident -- which is obviously not representative of the whole -- to paint the American military with one brush.

I pointed out that this type of misconduct occurs elsewhere. I pointed out that there is some very extreme hazing going on in the Australian military at times.

How does this relate? I will explain in detail for you.

This relates becuase we are discussing military conduct. You brought up the idea that the American military is undisciplined because of the incident in Iraq. I pointed out to you that this type of incident -- while absolutely awful -- is not [i]only [/i]an American problem, as your original contention implied. Rather, this problem occurs in just about every military force out there and it is unfair and wrong to suggest that this is generally an American problem, or something to do with an overall lack of training or discipline.

While hazing and the incident in Iraq are both different, they do underline a shared key point; discipline and conduct within the military, which leads us back to the topic of discussion at hand.

Now, Cloricus, you have not only misinterpreted what I said earlier (which is an indication that you simply didn't read my post -- you skimmed it), but you also suggested that I'm creating some sort of unprovoked attack on you. This is false. I am responding to [i]your [/i]incorrect generalizations and [i]your [/i]misinterpretations of what I said.

If that doesn't clarify it for you, I don't know what will.[/color][quote=cloricus]

This is where you should reread my post; an army is ultimately responsible for the training, screening (of personalities/actions) and watching that troops obey their orders and do nothing 'wrong'. This did not happen, which I'm sure that you can observe as people have been beaten and humiliated, this is the fault of the respective army?s in general. I believe my comments were founded. [/quote]
[color=#707875]Yes, of course I agree with that. These people should be punished for what they did, and the army [i]does [/i]have to consider its policies in this regard.

However, you can not imply guilt by association; you can't imply that the entire American military is undisciplined, simply because a few soldiers decided to do something awful. That's simply an unfair comment to make, and you made it. [/color][quote=cloricus]

Also I was unaware that the highest moderator at this boards would come down so hard on 'one' generalisation even though sweeping statements like this are being made by others in other controversial threads without comment. (Eg gun control.) I will think again before adding an opinion to a debate here in future.[/quote]
[color=#707875]Don't be so ridiculous, Cloricus. I'm not having a discussion in the Gun Control thread, I'm having a discussion [b]here[/b]. I am participating in the discussion in the same way that you are.

I am not "attacking" you; I am simply pointing out that your vast generalizations are incorrect and that the implications you've made aren't wise to make, simply because you aren't in a position to make them -- just as I'm not. And as with anything, it's inappropriate to suggest that an [i]entire [/i]military force is undisciplined because of a few idiots. I'm asking you to be realistic, and I'm calling your comments to attention.

In a debate, or discussion, you are responsible for what you say. If you don't want someone to disagree with you or question your statements, then why participate?

A discussion is all about this; it's all about questioning and [b]discussing[/b] ideas. That's what we're doing. The problem occurs when you skim someone's post and fundamentally misunderstand it -- misunderstanding on its own can even be forgiven, but you aggressively pursue an unrelated topic in a clumsy and confused manner. I [b]read [/b]your posts thoroughly, Cloricus. It's a sign of respect. If I can afford you that respect, you can do the same to me. Otherwise, it's a waste of time to address me.[/color][quote=cloricus]

As obvious of the pictures of piled up men who are naked, as blatant as the bloodied bodies, as clear as a terror boot flying towards the face of a random Iraqi?

[b]It happened, it should not have happened, it should not be justified; it should be corrected.[/quote][/b]

[color=#707875]Why are you even saying this? Are you implying that I'm trying to justify it?

I certainly hope not, because that would be a [b]very[/b] embarassing mistake on your part.[/color][quote=cloricus]

Now, if it was a well disciplined and over all 'good' force would you not think that at least one of the people involved in the beatings would have stood up, or at least as soon as they saw it happen go up the chain of command and get it stopped ASAP. If you say that did happen then I will question how so many photos of separate incidence exist. [/quote]
[color=#707875]Think logically, Cloricus. If a murder occurs somewhere in Australia, do you then suggest that all Australians are blood thirsty murderers? Of course not. That same principle cannot be applied to the American military, in the case of people doing the wrong thing.

[i]Yes[/i], someone should have stood up and done something about it. [i]Yes, [/i]it was horribly wrong and those involved should be punished. [i]Yes, [/i]the military should review the situation and do their best to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

These are all obvious points to make, and they've been made. But again, let's not use this one incident to cast doubt upon thousands and thousands of other troops. It's like condemning the entire police force because one officer does something wrong. Yes, it should be fixed and there should be punishment; but don't suggest that the whole force is undisciplined.[/color][quote=cloricus]

Also the military should be removing these elements if it cannot instil enough discipline to control them, though from the last news report I heard none of the people involved have been dishonourably discharged. Does this say something about the practices of the American army? (The British have already taken strong action from a statement I read earlier today.)[/quote]
[color=#707875]As per usual, you're jumping the gun. Last I heard, there is an investigation underway and the prison system there is receiving entirely new management.

Give it time, and be reasonable. At the first sign of something going slowly, you jump all over the Americans. That's ridiculous and unrealistic. A process will be followed and these people will be dealt with; several are already under investigation, according to a newspaper I read this morning. And some of them may even face a court marshal.

Be very, very careful to ensure that your facts are right before you suggest some conspiracy or lack of concern on the part of the Americans.[/color][quote=cloricus]

I would ask that once some one says that your opinion on their post is incorrect (or not what they wanted to convey) and then outlines it in more clear text that you do not continue to hound them and accept what they are 'really' trying to say. [/quote][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]So what are you [i]really [/i]trying to say? You've explained yourself here. I'm not hounding you; I'm explaining why you are incorrect. And I'm further clarifying my own comments, to ensure that you understand me.

The fact that I am spending the time to actually respond to you is a mark of respect. You should try to appreciate that, because not everyone on the Internet is going to sit there and explain themselves, or try to clarify things.[/color][quote=cloricus]

As when you do not you put them in a position where they have to defend themselves and that response can put them in a position for you to ban which I think is unfair in a debate. (Like now.)[/quote]
[color=#707875]Cloricus, you're still in love with conspiracy theories. lol

A position where I can ban? Please. That's a complete insult; if I was going to ban you, I wouldn't create some elaborate argument or confrontation; I'd ban you and be quite satisfied with that. But you're not banned, are you?

You shouldn't play the victim here, Cloricus. [b]You[/b] are the one who vastly misread[b] my[/b] post, and who then proceeded to chastise me for being nasty. You're being a complete and utter hypocrite if you honestly believe that I'm picking on you; it's quite the reverse, I assure you.

The problem is that you apparently skim my posts, eager to respond in disagreement with me. Every time you do this, you make mistakes. You either misread the plain English in my posts, or you throw out random and problematic facts, or you end up "clarifying" what you mean until the meaning changes a few dozen times.

You need to correct that kind of behavior if you want to debate with me, because our discussions will always be confrontational if you are unable to pay a very basic level of respect to my posts and the meanings I'm getting across.[/color][quote=cloricus]

Please accept I was stating my general disgust at how the army?s involved allowed this to happen in the first place and there lack of swift and harsh response. At the time I did not know about the English response and was unhappy with the American?s (lack of harsh) actions.[/QUOTE]
[color=#707875]No, that's not what you stated. Read your post again. You implied that these actions are representative of a military that simply allows them to happen, and you further implied that what happened is a result of poor training and discipline.

I responded by saying that you made a harsh generalization (which you did), and that you should not judge the entire force based on a few criminals who decide to do something stupid and cruel. Let me be very clear about that.

In addition, you [i]don't [/i]know what the American response is, based on my reading of your latest post. But as per usual, you are ready to jump the gun and attack the Americans, as you always do.

The problem is that you [i]presume [/i]the outcome before you know it. I just finished telling you that there is an investigation and that the leadership of the Iraqi prison system has been completely changed; this is a direct response, designed to improve conditions and change the system of working. No doubt, the investigations of those involved could result in anything ranging from a dishonorable discharge to something entirely more severe.

But nobody knows that for sure yet; not you, not me, not the media. So, making a conclusion at this stage of the game is completely inappropriate.[/color]