Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners

[HOTpage2004]

Your missing the whole point. If your not gonna listen closely and open your mind to understand why it was like that, than dont bother saying anything about it. Acutally you dont even have to open your mind to understand it, just the people with sense can. Plus, think of what they did and are doing to us.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[COLOR=INDIGO][color=indigo]Horrible atrocities occur during war, especially to prisoners. Quite a bit of people are saying that what these soldiers did is no less humane then what was recently done to the security force agents that were captured, skinned, then hung from a bridge and lit on fire. However, no matter what our enemy does to us, we cannot allow out troops to stoop to similar levels. I have little doubt that the soldier?s responsible for these actions will not only be dishonorably discharged, but they will be subject to prosecution.

Unfortunately, America is constantly attacked and battered with unfair, unjustified, and biased media throughout the world. Obviously the addition of an atrocious act by American soldiers is like pouring a tanker full of gasoline on an already fueled fire. Our government has to do its best to swiftly find out exactly what happened, who is responsible, and punish them accordingly. Our government is already walking on eggshells, it doesn?t need to shoulder the weight of bad press due to a couple of punks getting their jollies off humiliating prisoners.

I do think that it is laughable at best when people condemn an entire country?s military for the actions of a few people. It just continuously reminds me how unwilling people are to hold a person responsible for their own actions.[/color]

[/COLOR]

[Shinken]

And the winner is... James!

But, to get back on topic, anyone who thinks that the Iraqi prisoners "deserved it", and justify it with the age-old "well, they did it to us!", I think Gandhi can handle this one.

[i]"An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind."[/i] -Mohandas Gandhi

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] This happens all the time, it's just that most of it comes out to the media about ten years after the war or whatever and no one cares. You can't blame just the American army, because 1) judging a whole army after some peoples' actions is stupid [although I also believe in the saying that a group is only as good as its weakest member. O_o] and 2) practically all armies do it one way or another during warfare.

The whole thing is disgusting, and the people who were caught are now blaming others saying that higher officials encouraged their acts to 'break the Iraqi prisoners down'. Most of them are saying that they got orders from interrogation officials or someone of the sort to 'make them ready for questioning', but any sane person would know that the actions they took against the prisoners is inhumane and cruel.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I finally saw these photos. Granted, I saw them on, of all shows, Tough Crowd, but they're not as horrible as I expected. Yes, they're humiliating, and yes, what is on them should not have happened, but the worst one there is the electricity one and I honestly expected worse. To say that those American soldiers acted no better than Iraqi torturers, is probably insulting to whoever was tortured by the Iraqis. In fact this incident is a bit likely to have been blown out of proportion by the world media because making America look bad is, well, quite popular.

Anyway, like I said before I completely agree that the soldiers who did it are rotten and utterly stupid, and should be dishonorably discharged. But whoever thinks less of the American army because of this incident is, I believe, naive. It shouldn't have been as big a deal as it is (though of course with America-hating so popular around the world nowadays, I couldn't be less surprised).

[lea]

[quote name='Lady Macaiodh][color=darkblue']...Who was dumb enough to take the pictures in the first place? And how did the media get them?[/color][/quote]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]That is something I have been wondering. Why would someone take pictures of something like that? You figure that the people who did it would have enough sense to know that if the situation was found out with enough proof (like pictures, for example <_< ) the whole situation would not be tolerated. None of it makes any sense...it's like when the Germans kept detailed records about the Holocaust. 0.o[/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='maladjusted][color=firebrick'] The whole thing is disgusting, and the people who were caught are now blaming others saying that higher officials encouraged their acts to 'break the Iraqi prisoners down'. Most of them are saying that they got orders from interrogation officials or someone of the sort to 'make them ready for questioning', but any sane person would know that the actions they took against the prisoners is inhumane and cruel.[/color][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Well, that's great, let's blame our commanding officers. As far as I know no sane thinking commanding officer would advise his or her soldiers to break international laws by abusing POWs to get answers. But it figures that when faced with dishonorable discharge people will try to push the blame off on others.

Even if a commanding officer had advised their soldiers to break them in such a manner it would have been the soldier's duty to go up their chain of command and speak with someone above their commanding officer. I'm not sure, but I think that if anyone's commander had asked them to do something questionable they can refuse.

I spoke with my husband today and brought this subject up. He said that he'd read about it online.

He figures that maybe some of the soldiers were taking their stress out on the POWs which sounds like another cop-out, but you've almost got to wonder what was going through their minds at the time. Being over in a war zone has got to be some sort of stressful thing to go through. I doubt that some people actually think rationably about their actions. I'm not making excuses, I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective[/color]

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] I don't know about the whole perpective thing, but I don't believe in it. I have total respect for your opinion, now, but the things they are do are flat out unacceptable. Of course, it is just not the Iraq war and it is just not American male soldiers. Women and male soldiers of every country who has been to war in other countries have somehow abused POWs. During the Korean war, soldiers raped women, leaving them with unwanted children and the consequenced of automatically being looked down upon as low-class prostitutes. If we're all going to look at this from the perspective that being in a war zone is stressful, well, I don't believe in it. Most of them are probably drunk or whatever while doing it, which is why the made the stupid decision to take pictures hoping that people wouldn't find them. [/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='maladjusted][color=firebrick'] I don't know about the whole perpective thing, but I don't believe in it. I have total respect for your opinion, now, but the things they are do are flat out unacceptable.[/color][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]I'm glad that you respect this opinion.


In no way am I trying to give the POWs the short end of the stick by saying that in some way the soldiers involved were justified. I'm also not trying to say that any sort of inhumane treatment is acceptable by any military installation. rI'm saying that nobody was thinking clearly and Bush should show some sort of humility by dismissing Rumsfeld from his command as Secretary of defense. Of course, that last part is neither here nor there.

The people who are suddenly blaming their commanding officers should try to take some responsibility for their actions, not go around blaming the entire chain of command. Yes in some ways the chain of command was responsible because they may have ordered them to abuse the POWs, but each individual had the choice fo refusing questionable orders from their commander. (as far as I know, I don't know how everything works in the military) There's always room fro questioning a command your superiors give you if you believe that it could be illegal[/color]

[quote name='maladjusted][color=firebrick']Of course, it is just not the Iraq war and it is just not American male soldiers. Women and male soldiers of every country who has been to war in other countries have somehow abused POWs. During the Korean war, soldiers raped women, leaving them with unwanted children and the consequenced of automatically being looked down upon as low-class prostitutes.[/color][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]If we're going to look at war time atrocities, let's look at the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2 for starters. When they invaded the Chinese mainland the soldiers raped and murdered women no matter what age, young or old. THey promised to let people who surrendered live them killed them. And what they did to their POWs rivals anything the US, UK or Iraqi military has done to their POWs. THe Japanese soldiers injected their POWs with all sorts of diseases, starved them, beat them and made them do hard labor. There was all sorts of abuse to their POWs. And to their captured countries.[/color]

[quote name='maladjusted][color=firebrick']If we're all going to look at this from the perspective that being in a war zone is stressful, well, I don't believe in it. Most of them are probably drunk or whatever while doing it, which is why the made the stupid decision to take pictures hoping that people wouldn't find them. [/color][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your thoughts and opinions, but my husband is over there so I do know a few more things about the situation.

Let's see, how can a war zone [i]not[/i] be stressfull? Hmm...your base is bombed every night. When you're out in a convoy you run the risk of being shot at, captured, mutilated, killed, or running over a mine and being blown up. You get about 3 hours of sleep a night if you're lucky and the people forget to send their motar round to your base. You have kids waving guns in your face, even if it's just a b.b. gun, if someone doesn't know that they could shoot the kid and start a riot in teh marketplace. You barely get to talk to your loved ones. The base runs out of running water and food. Unless you're lucky enough to be 31-fox or 31-romeo (from what I've been told) you don't get a day off to relax. NO, war zones aren't stressfull at all. Oops, sorry, sarcasm. There goes your first theory unless you actully think you wouldn't get stressed with only 3 hrs of sleep and work 21/7.

Let's see, drunkeness, That perspective would be wrong because they don't allow the consumption or sale of alcohol during wartime when the soldiers are constantly on duty. So there goes your second theory. Nobody was drunk when they took the pictures.. Maybe they were just feeling stupidly proud of their actions. It's obvious nobody was thinking of what would happen after Iraq and their military careers
Until the trials begin I'm afraid none of us will really know[/color]

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] I'm extremely sorry, that came out very wrong. I didn't mean that a warzone wasn't stressful, I was trying to say that even though a warzone is 100% very, very stressful [I've heard enough from my uncle's experience in the Vietnam war], I don't believe in using that for a perspective to commit these crimes. Even under stress any person brought up with the slightest morale should understand that what they are doing is sick a vile.

I've read tons of true stories and memoires of people placed in war, and trust me soldiers do and will get drunk. They do all sorts of things- hire prostitutes, get drunk, fight, etc. Although being stupidly proud is a very possible reason, I just want to get out that soldiers aren't all cracked up to what Americans describes them to be.[/color]

[Ayokano]

I guess I will put my two cents in.

The fact that these soldiers were playing college pranks (yes the "If you fall of the box you'll get shocked." is college prank) and taking pictures of prisoners naked, I think they had every right to go to jail. The whole "eye for an eye" thing is meaning-less. I mean, Iraq and the U.S are two different countries, and we had different views on how prisoners of war should be treated. And these soldiers broke these views, which are also laws, so they should end up in jail.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Something that nobody has directly mentioned yet is that abusing POWs by military personnel is a global war crime according to the GEneva Conventions.And it's guaranteed that these soldiers will eventually be court marshalled for breaking international laws

As for the whole chain of command thing. The higher ups (including Rumsfeld and Bush) Should have had some idea of what was going on. They should all be held responsible for their actions from E1 to the Secretary of defense.

Another thing that kind of cheeses me off is Bush's appology...to the Prince of Jordan and Rumsfeld's refusal to resign. Bush should make a direct appology to the families of these Iraqi POWs and Rumsfeld-between denying the Guantanamo prisoners some rights under the Geneva convention and then not understanding that he is in some ways responsible for these actions is not only sickening, but detrimental to our country.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I completely disagree that people way way up in the chain of command should be held at all responsible. Stupid soldiers have been screwing around doing questionable/wrong stuff in every single war ever fought. This time around we should be glad that the orders didn't come from anyone in a particularly high command.

Politically I understand that Bush needs to be very apologetic about the incident. But with all due respect to everyone, I think that nothing short of much stricter, perhaps to the point of being unreasonable, disciplinary controls and oversights could have prevented such a thing. It takes a lot to make sure that [i]everyone[/i] is kept in line, especially when it comes to dealing with an enemy which would have been happy to tear your face off had he met you on his own terms.

But to say that Bush and Rumsfeld are even partially personally responsible is bullcrap. It's not their job to personally oversee every last soldier out there. The people responsible are the soldiers themselves and their immediate superiors, as well as whoever was in any way personally involved with that particular prison. I'm just trying to be reasonable about it. That's like blaming the Secretary of Education for school shootings. There's simply no basis for such an accusation.

[RainbowChick]

[size=2]I found this comletely revolting. I wasn't exactly expecting a clean war, since there's never been a such thing but this is bit much. It's disgusting that these soldiers are stooping to the level of Iraqi soldiers. I totally disagree with this concept.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]However, I don't think that higher personnel should be held responsible for the doings of every single soldier, that would be impossible. They should be apologetic on their part but nobody has the right to blame them. It'd be like saying that the president/prime minister need to oversee every soldier personally, not only impractical but impossible.[/size]
[size=3][/size]

[IceWolfEyes]

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[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='IceWolfEyes']As to who took the photographs, probably a guy who wanted to expose what those idiots were doing. The quickest way to do so was by taking pictures and sending them to the paparazzi. Somehow, the media always seems one up on the government. And if the public got wind of what was going down, then they wouldn't let it stand. The military tries to keep its mistakes quiet; they didn't get a choice with this one. I applaud the guy who took those pictures.[/quote]

Actually, the retards themselves took the pictures (the guilty soldiers). They thought they were funny or something, and sent them to a friend in the U.S. just for kicks. Maybe they figured the friend would find them amusing. But instead the friend submitted the photos to the authorities. Heh.

[Harusame]

I think that it is so wrong. I mean, I've been thinking, How in the hell can my country be doing that sort of stuff.

[Shinken]

Well, it's not the country that's doing it. It's a few (possibly more, according to reports from Afghanistan) soldiers who went overboard, lost sense of morality, etc. In a recent poll, CNN found that 73% of Americans felt the abuse was unjustified. So, it shows that the majority of the country does not (at least outwardly/publicly) hold the "They did it to us, it's only fair!" opinion.