Perception or Reality?

[Brasil]

[QUOTE]Sati says, "She said that you're a bad man."
Smith replies, "Oh, I'm not so bad once you get to know me."

Times do change, Ms. Mikus, but what really changes? Do people change? Is there some...radical transformation within a person that alters their behavior forever? Or is this change merely the product of a faulty perception?

Perception, Ms. Mikus, perception is how we cloud our judgments and cloud others' judgments as well. When one is not aware of the intricacies of a particular event, situation, or even a human being, one is very easily fooled into believing there is something simple, when in fact the simplicity of an exterior--an appearance, Ms. Mikus, can be very deceiving, very deceiving indeed.

Because, in order for the human race to survive, even just dealing with isolated cases of individuals yearning to live life to the fullest, to escape from their simplistic lives, to find something better, they must learn to see past the mask; to strike through the mask, and find what truth lies beneath a simplistic exterior.

Sometimes, this simple appearance can fool others, but you must ask yourself, Ms. Mikus, are those being fooled by a simple appearance entirely complex themselves? And if shown what is not being shown to them, would these simple folk continue to believe the appearance, and not be shaken to their very core by what they see, if what they see shatters their perception of reality?

It is a very interesting question, Ms. Mikus, a dilemma of human existence for a very long time, and a difficulty that still holds significant bearing on life today, even at this very moment, as you and I sit here, at our desks, plugged in to cyberspace.[/QUOTE]
Thoughts? How does a person change? Is a person defined by those around him or her? And if so, how can one be certain they are aware of themselves at all, or if they are sure of who they are, if they are constantly being redefined by the outside world? Why does one have this...desire to [i]be[/i] with someone else? Is it to feel validation? Love? Peace?

Do human beings honestly feel that they can be whole when they are with someone else? I appreciate what a relationship feels like, certainly. I'm in a very loving one right now, in fact, with a woman that loves me very much. But this does not change my question I pose to you now.

Is the human race so weak that they are unable to live alone? Is the human race so weak that they are constantly driven by a deep, burning desire to feel validated?

Just a thought that popped into my head.

[HOTpage2004]

As I've said to other people like you, go see a doctor :laugh:

[Brasil]

[quote name='HOTpage2004']As I've said to other people like you, go see a doctor :laugh:[/quote]
I guess this was a bit over your head, eh? Don't let the name fool you, man, I'm quite sharp. The point I raised in my initial post is a valid one and not formed by some idiot n00b with no thought in her pretty little head,a point that I will re-iterate:

What is reality? How do people define themselves? Is there such a thing as individuality? Is there such a thing as a pure individual, who is somehow unaffected by any societal influence at all? And, if one believes themself to be immune to societal condition, why do they say that? What drives them to define themselves in that way?

Likewise, if someone is not confident in their abilities, what drives them--compels them to take solace in others around them? To feel validated by being in a relationship?

These are questions with very serious social implications. We should question why we act the way we act. When one acts blindly, they have no understanding of what goes on around them. They hide behind a mask, and if you had read my post with appreciation of what I was saying, instead of seeing the name and automatically writing it off, you would see one of the points there is to "strike through the mask."

[Monkey_Orange]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Whoa. When I read your post, I was instantly reminded of my Philosophy class back in college. *swirly-eyed*

The debate between Reality versus Perception has been ongoing for quite awhile. Remember [B]Decartes[/B]? He was the guy who said, "I think, therefore I am." That was him, right? Anyhow, his argument is quite interesting. And then of course, there was the movie [B]The Matrix[/B]--which is opposite of what Decartes claimed. And then of course, you have people who are mentally ill. Are THEY ill? Or is is just us?

For me, reality is the life that I am living period. There is NO such thing as a 'real' reality. So yes, I guess you can say it's all about perception. But then again, who are we to say that? What about religion? Who's religion is right? Bah! Let's not get into that.

But yes, reality is the life now! Okay, I feel like I'm running around in a circle. Therefore I shall stop before I get even dizzier @ @

[/COLOR]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I'll try to focus on one thing at a time.
[QUOTE]How does a person change? Is a person defined by those around him or her?[/QUOTE]
Well, this one isn't so hard. A person changes his/her behavior/attitude/etc. based on the environment he/she is in and the hereditary factors (as well as all previous knowledge the person has attained) that influence how he/she perceives and reacts to that environment.
The "is a person defined.." question is a bit ambiguous. From what perspective do you mean? A person is defined by those around him or her using what they know of him/her. And that definition is one they and they alone have. If you are asking the more philosophical question, "what defines a man?" then you have to at least pick a perspective--biological, social, individual, etc. I'm sure that perspective is also influenced by whatever values you hold dear. What defines a person in my view? Everything pertaining to him/her. Looks, personality, history, the company he/she keeps, intellect, interests, family, material possessions, etc. Everything. Counting anything out leaves out a large piece of the puzzle.

[QUOTE]How can one be certain they are aware of themselves at all, or if they are sure of who they are, if they are constantly being redefined by the outside world?[/QUOTE]
I don't believe that one's definition of him/herself is exactly the same as how others define him/her in their eyes. But even if it was, it would still be a definition. One would be aware of who he/she is because there is a definition for him/her. And even if that definition constantly changes, it does not change completely. Some things never change, including those which make the person a unique one.

[QUOTE]Why does one have this...desire to [i]be[/i] with someone else? Is it to feel validation? Love? Peace?Do human beings honestly feel that they can be whole when they are with someone else? Is the human race so weak that they are unable to live alone? Is the human race so weak that they are constantly driven by a deep, burning desire to feel validated?[/QUOTE]
Let's first answer the question "are humans unable to live alone?" I'd say the vast majority, enough to generalize, are indeed unable to live alone. They need contact with other humans. Now, then, is this a "weakness?" No. It's simply a trait. Humanity is a social animal. Are tigers so strong that they are solitary, as opposed to lions?
Ok, on to the next question. "Are humans driven by a deep, burning desire to feel vaildated?" This one is, again, ambiguous. Does feeling validated mean thinking that one's life has a certain level of meaning? Or does it mean something else? I'll assume it means what I figure it does, and I'll say yes once more. Humans want to know their life has meaning. ... Is this a weakness? I'd say not, because it's not really a strength to figure one's life "meaningless" and be content with that.
Ok and now on to the big fish, the "why does one desire to be with someone else?" I'd say first and foremost because man is social and sexual. Also because being with someone that person knows that his actions impact other people, which makes him/her meaningful on at least some level. So, do human beings "honestly feel whole" when they're with someone else? If feeling whole means that the need for contact, meaning, etc. is satisfied, then I'd say yes.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='HOTpage2004']As I've said to other people like you, go see a doctor :laugh:[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]And as I've said to ther peopel like you, I'm very sorry that you are a shallow brained ignoramous[/color]

[quote name='Anime_fangurl*247']I guess this was a bit over your head, eh? [/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Grass is over his/her head.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. *picks up map and drives over to the topic* I hope I'm getting this right.

1.) [b]Can a person be unaffected by social functions[/b]

There are events that may occure in a person's life that can change them drastically. Take soldiers in warzones for example. When these people first get in country they are inexperianced (for actual battle even though they have gone thru various NTC and FTX things) fearless and sometimes even carefree. However after about six months in country (meaning in the warzone) things have chanegd for them. Some of their buddies may have died, they may have experianced violent fighting and their bases have been bombed frequently and without warning. They have gone with out sleep or maybe with only three hours of sleep (the military actually only requires soldiers to have between 3-4 hours of sleep) A few of them may have had near death experiances. In a mere six months these people's lives have changed dramatically. War has been a social change for these people.

2.) [b]Do people feel fulfiled by their relationships?[/b]

That's a good question, but I'm not quite sure how to answer it. I love my husband, and I definately treasure spending time with him since times like that are few and far between. I'm looking forward to spending time with him uninterupted by the military when he comes home permanently, so in saying this does that make me feel fulfilled by the relationship we have? Somewhat, because what we go through makes us stronger. Does everyone? I don't know, I'm not everyone.

3.) [b]Do people feel a need to be validated by their relationships?[/b]

I can't answer for everyone, I can only answer for myself from my own feelings, but I'd have to say no. I feel thatyou can still feel liek a full person male or female without being in a relationship with a another person.

Sometimes even with family members not everyone can have a strong relationships. The thing is to acknowledge that you do need people to get along in life and you do need to have people to depend on, but don't base your life on one person opr another completely.[/color]

[eleanor]

[i]Let's first answer the question "are humans unable to live alone?"[/i]

[color=firebrick] I believe it is utterly insanely impossible for humans to live alone. I find it hard [although it's appealing] in some fiction books where some characters who have lived totally alone for their whole life and are strong enough to keep a cool head about it. My theory is that is someone was actually forced from their mother at birth and forced to live in a desolate area he/she couldn't escape, they'd either go insane or die off eventually. It is human nature to either to observe or have contact with people around them, and it also human nature to create their own power over something else. Everyone has power over at least something else; a person with no power is not really a person, which makes humans more like animals. The human race in no doubt [i]insanely[/i] weak, although there are few strong people among them. I honestly believe it is mainly the contact with other people that will create a person. It is so easy to create the personality of just another person and with that society believes that thought.

I had a conversation with my sister about two days ago after noticing how extremely fond of our dog she was: [me being the bold sentences]

[b]If someone put a magic spell of death on someone, and the only way to save them was to kill Simba [our dog], would you kill her?[/b]

Yeah. What about you?

[b]Yes.[/b]

What if the person was Hitler?

[b]No.[/b]

Why Not?

[b]Because he's such a powerful symbolism of evil...I dunno, it's hard to explain. I just wouldn't.[/b]

What about a person who killed two people?

[b]Yeah, I would kill Simba.[/b]

So are you saying two people as opposed to six million is insignificant.

[b]I might sound crude, but in the big picture I think so.[/b]

What if the two people were your parents?

[b]No, I guess not. It's a hard question.[/b]

Do you believe in the death row?

[b]Yes.[/b]

So you'd save a murderer by killing Simba but you don't believe murderers on the death row should be saved?

Why did I hesitate when my sister asked me if the murderer killed my parents? Simple, because I've known them all my life and they have loved me all my life. Yet I am so willing to see two other deaths as insignificant as compared to six million people. It is almost disgusting, really. It is human nature to obtain power, greed, to be violent, to be selfish, and to be arrogant. There are people who rise above the expectations, there are people who hide their faults, and there are people who come out with it. Why do we hate those who come out with it? Is it their fault? Or maybe their parent's fault. Then, I guess we could blame their grandparents. Their great-great grandparents.

>_> I'm hopelessly off topic, anyway.[/color]

[Mitch]

[size=1][color=red] Good thread, Anime Gurl.

Now, let me try to give my two cents. For a penny given--two cents, no less--is a penny earned.

How does a person, change you ask? How?

A person changes in many ways. Physically, mentally, psychologically, spiritually. There are many ways. But I am supposing we're focusing on mental, psychological change.

A change is a reaction to a stimulus. When something's put in front of you, or lingers ahead of you, or effects you, it changes you. Each and every day we are changed. There is change which happens within us--changes brought on by our inner feelings, our inner thoughts, or inner selves.

Then there is the stimulus of people who you see each and every day. And the problems of reality we face on a day to day basis, as well.

Simply put, there are internal changes, and there are external changes. Stimuli on the inside of us, which change us, and stimuli on the outside that change us. And, the outside changes can cause the inside changes to change; the inside changes can cause the outside changes to change. These two dimensions of change are directly related, in a way. You couldn't have one without the other. If you could not take what changes you inside of your mind, then you would not change. All change happens on the inside, at least if we're speaking mentally, psychologically. It happens when we are given something from the outside of us--a stimulus--and it does its changing. Or inside--some thought pops into our head, it festers and grows over time. Or we are inspired right then and there.

Read this above as babble, or as genius, or inbetween. It is your choice. I'm not even sure what it is, exactly. But it nudges some idea.

To put something in the reality versus perception debate: think about it. The way we see things in our mind, the way we see everything is perceived by what we see with our eyes, smell with our senses, taste with our tongue.

The way the mind works is from memory--and from talking this so-called "reality" and turning into something of its own. Our minds learn and grow and become what they are because of our senses, and because of what we see. Without this so-called "reality," our minds wouldn't have a tangible way to see things. We wouldn't get a certain image in our head of anything. Our minds are tainted by so-called "reality." What we see is what we take in mentally. This is what's called perception.

Further, there's endless ways to look at the world. You see the differing philosophies. There's the naturalist, there's the realist, there's the romanticist, there's the trascendentalist. There's all these ways to look at things. There's the question of God--and his existence. All of these things are undefined, and can be seen via what someone sees--their perception.

I've said this many times, but I say it again--what's bad is good, what's good is bad; what's foul is fair, what's fair is foul. By this I mean there's no one way to look at something. There is no reality. There is nothing real but what we say is real. And when you say something's real--that is perception. That is seeing it one way and only one way. There's few things that are real. Love? Hate? God? Fill in anything here, it's all abstract, it's all intangible--you can't touch it, you can't feel it. You just feel it's there. It's just a perception.

Life is a gift? Life is a curse? Life is a waste of time? Life is lovely? Life is. What's life? We don't know, we question it each and every day. We sway from one notion to the other, of what we believe it is. Life itself has nothing secure, certain in it--all you know is you'll live, one day you'll die. So there is one thing humans seach for--rememberance and validation. They want to feel their time, their effort, their strain, pain, emotions, are not [i]in frustra[/i], are not in vain.

[b]Is a person defined by those around him or her?[/b] Of course they are defined by them. When a baby is first born, it gets what it gets from its parents. Those around. It listens to all it hears, it gets memories from all the people around, it grows because of their love and care. A baby learns from many things, and these things change it--influence it. A baby may watch their parents walk; it may learn from observation. It learns to talk from its parents, listening to them speak. It may get some pronunciations wrong just because its parents say them wrong. A baby eventually learns manners in the world, how you're supposed to be. Don't belch at the table, don't stare at others, eat with a fork and a spoon and a knife.

Taking what I said before, what we are is actually what the outside world makes us. The people we see each day--every outside stimuli--it's what makes us who we are. Our entire perception of everything is from what's outside. We take it all in and it comes together to make us. It's a system of mistakes fixing insufficencies. It's a collection of your reaction to the stimuli. We are who we are completely by what has made us outside. That's our Fate. We never become what we truly are because there is nothing we truly are--we are a collection of safes and mistakes fixing each other. By learning, we are further destroyed of anything that we could be--we learn something and we become different. We change. We begin to expect the stimuli we'll feel, and react.

[b]. . .how can one be certain they are aware of themselves at all, or if they are sure of who they are, if they are constantly being redefined by the outside world?[/b] You can't. What you are is what this so-called "reality" has made you. The conditions that've made you. What pressure and time's done. What it's created. There is nothing we are truly--if you want to know what you really are, then you are a being. A collection of teeming cells all working together to make you. A frail being who has a larger brain than any other animal on Earth. That is what you are. That is all you'll ever be. Just a human, flesh. That's what you are. You can't be any more certain than that.

[b]Why does one have this...desire to be with someone else? Is it to feel validation? Love? Peace?[/b] When we undergo the rapid changes of puberty, our bodies begin feeding us full of sexual chemicals. Our body undegoes changes which make us attracted to the opposite sex.

It's natural. That's the answer. It's a natural inclination. It's something that nature has built into us as animals. A natural need to have the opposite sex. We need someone else so that we can come together with another and try to understand ourselves more. To try to fix something. We're all broken, we need repair. Feeling mutual feelings, as well as having another helps this. Plus, having another allows us to further divert our attention away from ourselves and the endless plethora of questions of who we really are. It's like a lot of things are--they simply divert attention, they make it so you don't have to face these pressing questions. Instead, you live only to serve someone who you feel strong, passionate feelings for. You live for them rather than yourself. You stop being so innerly selfish and instead become selfish to them.

This is what we do most of our lives: we keep our attention away from the pressing facts of death, what life is meant for, who we are. We are happier this way. Happier in ignorance. Happier not to question, just to do--work our lives away, love our lives away.

[b]Do human beings honestly feel that they can be whole when they are with someone else?[/b] Yes, but eventually, they learn love does not last. Nothing good can last. All things good die in life. The death of the child, the death of the love you've fostered, the aging of you. The eventual death of you. And the endless question of what happens afterward.

Love does die. I've seen it. My mom divorced my father when I was only three. My mom and my step dad don't even love each other any more. A divorce of them has been a constant reminder to me of how much history repeats itself, endlessly, like a circle. There's no angles. . .just 360 degrees of a wide open space.

It all comes to survival. . .that's what keeps us going. This feeling we can do what we feel we can do. Just remember Neo, and what he said. He gets up because he can, because he chooses to. . .he doesn't know why. . .he just does. It's survival.

Having another one to devote your life to lets you survive. It makes you stronger because you're worrying about you less, and worrying about the other person more.

Human beings can never be whole. What is being whole? How can something broken be whole? Certainly, the coalescion of two beings of the opposite sex can sew together something that's whole. But it doesn't last. Everything dies. Everything good does and will die. A ship, above the darkness of the Machine, does and will rise, but just the same, it will fall because it has weight, and inertia, and it will hit the ground and something will die and something will be born.

[b]Is the human race so weak that they are unable to live alone?[/b] The human race is weak. Look at a simple-minded animal--they simply live their existence, and they don't even know they are living an existence. All they know is their natrual proclivities and what it is nature has told them to do. We rebel against nature. We are weak because of this. Intelligence makes us weak because it gets in the way of living and survivial. The constant questioning and the constant struggle of survival gets in the way. We live a pained existence which we try to keep to ourselves. We are weak, feeble creatures: our intelligence makes us this. But intelligence has its positive aspects as well. But in the end, it is not worth it to me.

We will go extinict either by nature or our own foolish device. Atom bombs. Robots. Whichever. Our intelllect will kill us someday. It already has killed many in wars, in other petty things.

We can live alone, but the real question is will we? The people I talk to each day are what make living most worth it. I agree with John Steinbeck: we all need something to keep us in balance. Just like Agent Smith and Neo. Just like George, from [i]Of Mice and Men[/i] did.

Living with someone else makes life easier because we divert our attention from the pressing concerns of our life, and what it will become, or is. Or has been.

When we don't have others--or a lover--we are left alone. When alone, we become egomanical--we look inside ourselves, searching, probing endlessly at the questions which have no answers. Other people divert our attention from this--make us realize our lives are pointless, and their lives mean more than our own, because if you put your heart to someone else, and they do the same, you can feel more whole.

[b]Is the human race so weak that they are constantly driven by a deep, burning desire to feel validated?[/b] Yes. We want to be remembered. We do not want to die. We want to survive and live all of the time. Validation brings about a feeling that we've accomplished something in our lives, and that is the main force that drives us to live.

Our intelligence and our knowing that not everything we do will last drives us to supercede this existence and Fate and become something that never dies. This is weak. We are weak creatures. A worm is stronger than us because it lives in harmony with nature, and has a purpose--as does a baterium, who rids the soil of waste. Or a plant, who gives the Earth oxygen in exhange for taking carbon dioxide in the process of photosynthesis.

We live a plagued existence, and we use our intelligence to try and validate it. We fight to make something that will last.

I'm running out of time. I'll answer as succint as I can.

[b]What is reality?[/b] Perception.

[b]How do people define themselves?[/b] By what they see, and their memories, and what's made them who they are.

[b]Is there such a thing as individuality?[/b] I think so. Again, it's seeing things and seeing them in many ways, and doing your own thing.

[b]Is there such a thing as a pure individual, who is somehow unaffected by any societal influence at all?[/b] Not in this day and age. Perhaps in the past, when we were but normadic tribes.

[b]Likewise, if someone is not confident in their abilities, what drives them--compels them to take solace in others around them? To feel validated by being in a relationship?[/b] Since I'm out of time, I'll say I said this somewhere above, lol. The second part of the question's much like one above.

I'm sorry if I was "outrageous" in what I said, lol. Who knows. All I know is I tried to say it how I felt it. [/size][/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I really like the above response overall, and I agree with much of it. Most of it is right on the dot. But there are a couple of things I don't agree with, but rather than seeing what I write as a "correction," see it as just [i]my[/i] way of looking at things, nothing more. My "reality."

[quote name='Mitch][b]. . .how can one be certain they are aware of themselves at all, or if they are sure of who they are, if they are constantly being redefined by the outside world?[/b'] You can't. What you are is what this so-called "reality" has made you. The conditions that've made you. What pressure and time's done. What it's created. There is nothing we are truly--if you want to know what you really are, then you are a being. A collection of teeming cells all working together to make you. A frail being who has a larger brain than any other animal on Earth. That is what you are. That is all you'll ever be. Just a human, flesh. That's what you are. You can't be any more certain than that.[/quote]
I don't agree with this conclusion. Certainly you are what "reality" has made you (although that is influenced by hereditary factors, such as a natural personality, as well). But to say that you have been shaped by the total of your life experiences means only that and that alone. You are [i]what[/i] you are. It's not the same thing as saying "why you are." So to say that "[it's] all you'll ever be... just a human, flesh" is really only true if you're looking at it from the point of view that might ask, am I a cyborg crocodile?
To say that "you can't be more certain than that," referring to being "human," I say one can be certain of [i]far[/i] more. One can say, "I am John Smith, I live at 1234 Riverview Dr., Randomtown, USA, I have a wife and two kids, their names are Jack and Jill, I work as a carpenter, I enjoy golf, bowling, and the occasional cigar, etc." and be quite certain of it. To say that John cannot be certain of what he said because it's just "his reality" would make no sense. John is a carpenter just as surely as he is human, right? The bottom line is this: regardless of what shapes us, we have been shaped, and that shape defines us certainly.

[QUOTE][b]Is the human race so weak that they are unable to live alone?[/b] The human race is weak. Look at a simple-minded animal--they simply live their existence, and they don't even know they are living an existence. All they know is their natrual proclivities and what it is nature has told them to do. We rebel against nature. We are weak because of this. Intelligence makes us weak because it gets in the way of living and survivial. The constant questioning and the constant struggle of survival gets in the way. We live a pained existence which we try to keep to ourselves. We are weak, feeble creatures: our intelligence makes us this. But intelligence has its positive aspects as well.[/QUOTE]
So humans are weak because they rebel against nature? Are animals strong because they aren't aware of their existence? First of all, that "simple-minded animal.. they don't even know they are living an existence" sounds a bit farfetched. I'm pretty sure most mammals, birds, etc. are aware of their existence, seeing as they are aware of their mortality. Am I to suppose that by "simple-minded animal" one only means jellyfish and the like? Are the jellyfish not as weak?....I'm sorry it's stupid of me to really pick on that sentence. I'm sure you just kinda put it in there, like I do a lot of the time myself. Forget anything I said about it. I'm not sure I was going for any point there.
Back to humans being weak because they rebel against nature. First of all, we are a product of nature, and to say we rebel against it is to say that we are apart from it. Now, it's true that many of the laws of nature that apply to other living things do not apply to much of humanity. But not to all humanity. Aborigines and many other uncivilized tribal societies do not in any sense rebel against nature, yet they feel the same human longing for contact, etc. that all humanity does. Are they less weak, just as weak, or weaker than the rest of humanity then?
Intelligence making humans weak... I disagree completely. Our intelligence, if anything, makes us strong. What does the word weak mean when there is no alternative "strong?" Is ignorance strength? Is lack of cognitive ability a plus? If toads could sit all day and ponder their own mortality, would they grow weaker? The fact that humanity's intelligence allows it to not follow the "survival of the fittest" law (I'm actually having trouble thinking of too many other laws of nature that do not apply to us...) is not a sign of weakness in any sense. Sure, our intelligence may lead to our own extermination some day (although a pandemic caused by some crazy disease is actually at least as likely), but it doesn't mean we were weak. Unless you mean too weak to handle the responsibility of not blowing ourselves up or something. Because in that case, suppose that squirrels knew how to launch nuclear missiles and what they did. They'd have blown everything within a matter of days. Same goes for primates, and all sorts of other animals who feel like inflicting some harm on others for whatever purpose. At this point, nuclear weapons have saved lives, that's it.
In the end, my point is that our intelligence is a strength that allows our species to prosper. It's not a weakness in any sense.

[QUOTE][b]What is reality?[/b] Perception.[/QUOTE]
If you ask a person to describe reality, he/she will communicate his/her perception of it. That is true. But if you ask him/her "is that reality?" and he/she says "yeah," what that really means is he/she is sure that his/her perception of reality is accurate. It doesn't mean reality is perception, or vice versa.

I figure that what you're talking about could be meant as a differentiation between what people see as "real" and what really is "real." But it's highly improper to equate reality with perception. By definition, they are not the same thing. One may have a perception [i]of[/i] reality, but unless that perception is [i]identical[/i] to reality, they are not the same thing.

I think I'm gonna have to bring in the idea of "absolute truth." When you are talking about perception vs. reality, there can be two ways of looking at it. One is that a perception of reality is all that is relevant, and so there is, for all intents and purposes, no "true reality." There is only its perception.
The other view is that everyone perceives reality trying to get a grasp on what it truly is, with the idea that there is something "true" to grasp.
I agree with the latter view, because it's a more scientific way of looking at things. (It's what science does--try to get a grasp on what "truly is," using our perceptions (aided by various tools) as our guides.) I think that perception, unless [i]close to reality[/i], is not very meaningful or useful. The reason that humanity can function and live fully even though its knowledge is limited by what it "perceives," is that what it perceives is close to reality. We perceive Earth as round. Last I checked, that's what it happens to be. Would it matter if Earth suddenly became a cube? Most certainly. Airplanes, satellites, magnetic fields, oceans, everything would be totally screwed up. A perception is a [i]model[/i] of reality. The better a model it is, the better off we are. And to say that there is such a thing as a good model would mean that there might be a perfect model. In other words, there is a true reality that could possibly be fully and accurately perceived. I believe that is so. So if you ask me, "what is reality?" I'm going to answer "it's the collective of what [i]is[/i]." It's [i]not[/i] perception.

[NeoNabishen]

I believe that reality is nothing more then the flawed perception that humans have of them selves and their environment. There is no true reality; just many conflicting perceptions baste on many incorrect assumptions. In a sense I am saying that everyone is ignorant. Ignorant of what you might ask? Of themselves. We all play a key role in our surroundings whether we admit it or not we are still aware of this ?connection? to the world that we have. It?s what gives us purpose and meaning. Everyone needs purpose. Without purpose we have no reason to go through this difficult and hateful world. The flawed perceptions that people have is what causes them to kill themselves and others. They don?t see that every life is immensely important. Maybe their child that they haven?t had yet or the child of somebody they killed will cure cancer. But that?s kind of getting out there and into predestines and stuff.
Well I cant remember where I was going with this so tha tha that all folks :D

PS: the posts before this are very interesting and very long. My eyes hurt. And I have something to think about. What a nice day. :)