DeadSeraphim Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 [QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]You say that like TP is going to suck simply because it's a ported GCN game. Even if it doesn't use the Wii controller's features as extensively as a Zelda game developed specifically for the Wii TP is still going to be an awesome game. Or do you seriously think Nintendo has wasted three years developing a boring game, all the while touting it as the best Zelda yet? I mean, you're not going to fault SSBB for using GCN controllers, are you? In that respect it's in the same boat as TP yet I don't see you calling it boring.[/color][/QUOTE] [size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]He didn't say that at all. He said it wouldn't be worth getting if the GCN will have the same game anyway, and be designed for the GCN specifically - meanwhile the Wii version is just that very same game with only minor use of the Wii's capabilities, and thus nothing to really get excited over. Fundamentally it is a port, and I don't think it should really count as a the 'first Wii Zelda' in any capacity, especially when you take into account that the use of motion sensor tech was only a very recent decision.[/font][/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 [color=#4B0082]In that case I have to question why he'd say it's not worth getting on the Wii. If TP is the [i]only[/i] game you'd buy for the Wii in the foreseeable future, then obviously the Wii version isn't for you, but otherwise you might as well pick it up instead of the GCN version. (Unless you think you'd prefer the classic control style, obviously.) It may not make as much use of the new controller as a Wii-specific Zelda game would, but that doesn't make the game any worse in and of itself; on the contrary, I think things like shooting the bow with the pointer and doing spin attacks with the motion sensor will only improve the game. Personally, just being able to shoot the bow using the pointer is enough to make me want the Wii version. So I think there's plenty to be excited about.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [quote name='Desbreko][color=#4b0082']In that case I have to question why he'd say it's not worth getting on the Wii.[/color][/quote] Because it's a port. It's not a Zelda game designed for the Wii from the ground-up. I don't know why you're having such a hard time grasping this, Desi. See, I used to be really excited about the bow crap, just like I used to be really excited about the shield bash and sword swings. Then I thought about it a bit more critically. And when I did that, TP on the Wii is not exciting at all, because it's the same thing as the GCN version, except here we get some basic Wiimote functionality which sounds no different than hitting the A button. So why bother with the Wii version? Why not wait until we get a full-fledged Wii Zelda with much more precise (and by "precise" I mean accurate) Wiimote functionality? I never once implied that WiiTP is going to suck because it's a port. It'll play well, I'm sure, but that was never anything close to what I've been talking about anyway. I'm passing on WiiTP because it's a GCN game. It could be the greatest Zelda game in the history of mankind and I still wouldn't buy it because it'll still be a current-gen Zelda game. Again, I can't understand why you still seem to be thinking I'm saying something like "The game is going to suck because it's a port." What I'm saying is more like "The game is boring because it's a port." And being boring or being a port has absolutely nothing to do with how it may play. If I buy TP, I'm buying it for GCN, because apparently I can tell the difference between bait and a real treat. lol [quote name='Desbreko][color=#4b0082']I mean, you're not going to fault SSBB for using GCN controllers, are you? In that respect it's in the same boat as TP yet I don't see you calling it boring.[/color][/quote] Pardon me, Des, but how in the hell do you make that kind of leap? lol I criticize WiiTP because it's a simple port with some Wiimote functionality added in last-minute in what is clearly a way to get people to buy Wii at launch, because let's face it...there's really no "must have killer app" in the launch titles. Plus, it's not as if we've been seeing any fundamental changes in how Zelda is played (even Iwata or Miyamoto have said how TP will be the last traditional Zelda game). TP will still play like a conventional Zelda game. Swinging the Wiimote is not doing anything to open up gameplay options; it's just replacing a small facet of gameplay. But we know Nintendo wants the Wii to open up gameplay options, right? Then where are the other Zelda items? Boomerang? Grappling hook? Bombs? Hookshot, even? Hammers? Magic attacks? Think about that for a moment. What we're getting in WiiTP is piddly compared to what a full-fledged, "from the ground-up" Wii Zelda game should be. You might argue that maybe Nintendo is keeping those items close to the chest, right? It's a month before launch. They would have said something about them by now. Regarding Smash Bros Brawl on the other hand? If they didn't use the GCN controllers I'd be annoyed, because as far as I'm concerned, SSBM had a damn near perfect control scheme using the GCN controllers. The game itself simply would not benefit from the Wiimote like Wii Zelda would. Generally, I don't see fighting games utilizing the Wiimote in any real productive ways. Most fighting games just don't have the depth that the Wiimote can explore in the adventure genre. I mean, think about it. What would play more precisely in Smash Bros Brawl? Making sideways jabs with the Wiimote to replace the traditional physical attacks we usually would perform with the A button? Or using the traditional GCN controller scheme that still performs damn near flawlessly? When it comes to precision, one control scheme (GCN controller) certainly is the superior there. In short, I criticize WiiTP because it's an example of the Wiimote being unnecessarily utilized. Just like I would criticize Smash Bros Brawl if it tried to do the same thing with the Wiimote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalon Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [quote name='Papa Smurf']What I'm saying is more like "The game is boring because it's a port." And being boring or being a port has absolutely nothing to do with how it may play.[/quote] Isn't "boring" a little much? If you played the WiiTP and never even heard of the GC version, then would it still make the WiiTP boring? I think it's all a matter of perspective. By that logic, playing something like GTA: San Andreas on Xbox makes it more boring than playing it on the PS2. [SIZE=1]Note: I never cared for GTA games, and I'm not comparing them to TLoZ, just using them as a port example.[/SIZE] [quote name='Papa Smurf']I criticize WiiTP because it's a simple port with some Wiimote functionality added in last-minute //snippity snip[/quote] I wouldn't call it last minute. It's been out for I don't know how many months that TP was going to the Wii. Nintendo had to reassure Zelda fans that it would even still be on the GameCube. I do, however, see you wanting one from the ground up, but there will at least be an improvement in the aim department with the bow and such. [quote name='Papa Smurf'] because let's face it...there's really no "must have killer app" in the launch titles.[/quote] How can you say there's no "must have killer app" when we're getting games like The Ant Bully and Spongebob Squarepants: Creature from the Krusty Krab?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [font=arial]Nintendo have been working on the Wii-specific version of TP for quite a while now...I don't know where anyone is getting the impression that this is some kind of last minute decision. I mean, they chose to bring it to Wii late in the GCN game's development cycle, but the Wii version is far from a "tacked on" version - quite a lot has been changed and the control scheme has become significantly different. Also, the Wii version will have a bigger variety of higher-quality display modes...so depending on your setup, it will actually be a nicer-looking game on Wii. So while TP isn't going to be as "Wii-centric" as a Zelda that was specifically designed for the system from the ground up, it's still darn close.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 James, I see what you're trying to get at, but considering players were still hitting B to swing the sword at E3 2006 and now just recently we've been informed the sword control has been changed to the Wiimote motion sensor (if you can provide a source that dates those changes to long before E3, I'd appreciate it)...I don't think anyone can say these control scheme changes [i]weren't[/i] last minute decisions--especially when it comes to the development cycle of Twilight Princess. If what we're hearing regarding the sword attack execution with the Wiimote is true (no distinction made between left/right swipes, pre-canned attacks, etc), then this is entirely a last minute type of change; the Wiimote control options we have are almost insulting because they're so basic and stripped-down compared to what the first Wii Zelda game should be. I've not been calling this thing "last minute" because of it being a port. To do that would be completely stupid. I know a Wii version has been announced for a while now. I know it's been in development for a while now. I'm annoyed that it's a port in the first place, absolutely. But I'm not about to call WiiTP a "last minute" game because it's a port...and I don't believe I've said or implied anything regarding that in my posts here. What I do believe I've been saying (and rather clearly) is that it's obvious these recent changes (sword-Wiimote functions, Link's hand change, etc) are totally last minute decisions because they've only appeared within the past four or five months. And maybe it's just me, but four or five months in a game whose development cycle has been going on pretty much since Wind Waker was released is entirely "last minute." And honestly, I don't think WiiTP is even "darn close" when we're talking about being designed for the Wii...because it wasn't designed for the Wii at all. It's a GCN game. If we had bomb control, a boomerang control that involved more than just a re-iteration of the targeting system from previous Zeldas, new types of spell activations, grappling hook innovations, and so on...then I'd be more inclined to describe it as "darn close." But at that point, I'd rather just have a true Wii Zelda game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [quote]James, I see what you're trying to get at, but considering players were still hitting B to swing the sword at E3 2006 and now just recently we've been informed the sword control has been changed to the Wiimote motion sensor (if you can provide a source that dates those changes to long before E3, I'd appreciate it)...I don't think anyone can say these control scheme changes weren't last minute decisions--especially when it comes to the development cycle of Twilight Princess. [/quote] [font=arial]Control changes were made within the last five months. The game releases in November...so Nintendo have been making controller adjustments through the last few months of development. That is not unsual, regardless of the game and the platform. More importantly, those changes have actually been implemented and completed within those last couple of months...so Nintendo have had more than enough time for testing and so on. You have to remember that Nintendo always works to the wire with every single game they develop. Twilight Princess is no different. Quality doesn't suffer - this process actually benefits a game's quality.[/font] [quote]If what we're hearing regarding the sword attack execution with the Wiimote is true (no distinction made between left/right swipes, pre-canned attacks, etc), then this is entirely a last minute type of change; the Wiimote control options we have are almost insulting because they're so basic and stripped-down compared to what the first Wii Zelda game should be.[/quote] [font=arial]I think it comes down to unrealistic expectations though. If you actually consider how difficult it would be to have 1:1 motions for that type of game, it starts to make sense why Nintendo have chosen the existing method. This is especially true for a game that requires fast motions. You have to really consider the difference in the way different players are going to actually be using the remote (and being right or left-handed plays a part in this too). I think 1:1 motions would be great, but they are an unrealistic expectation at this stage, especially for Twilight Princess. We can probably better determine whether or not the game will be negatively affected by the time it's released though - my advice would be to wait and see.[/font] [quote]But I'm not about to call WiiTP a "last minute" game because it's a port...and I don't believe I've said or implied anything regarding that in my posts here. [/quote] [font=arial]This was the general impression I'd been getting from the thread, not from your specific comments. But that's irrelevant anyway - the Wii controls are not what I'd call "last minute changes" as such. They occurred toward the end of the development cycle but I think that "last minute" in this context is being used to mean "sloppy". And I don't think that's a correlation we can make at this stage.[/font] [quote]What I do believe I've been saying (and rather clearly) is that it's obvious these recent changes (sword-Wiimote functions, Link's hand change, etc) are totally last minute decisions because they've only appeared within the past four or five months. And maybe it's just me, but four or five months in a game whose development cycle has been going on pretty much since Wind Waker was released is entirely "last minute." [/quote] [font=arial]Honestly, it's just you. lol Four or five months is a [i]long[/i] time in a game development period. Twilight Princess has been through multiple changes since it began development - about a year into development, the [i]entire[/i] game was completely changed in terms of visual design. Since then more entire dungeons have been added, even. So Nintendo is always making major changes even within the last six months of development; this is not unusual, it occurs with pretty much any game you can think of.[/font] [quote]And honestly, I don't think WiiTP is even "darn close" when we're talking about being designed for the Wii...because it wasn't designed for the Wii at all. It's a GCN game. If we had bomb control, a boomerang control that involved more than just a re-iteration of the targeting system from previous Zeldas, new types of spell activations, grappling hook innovations, and so on...then I'd be more inclined to describe it as "darn close." But at that point, I'd rather just have a true Wii Zelda game. [/quote] [font=arial]I agree that TP is a port. But it's unquestionably more than your standard port. It features visual improvements and fundamental gameplay enhancements. We aren't just talking a few new modes; we're talking about major changes to the way the game plays. I think you're just asking for way too much, honestly. You (and the rest of us) are lucky to be getting a Zelda anywhere near the console's launch. Some may ask whether or not it's even worth making a Wii-specific version of Zelda...but I think that's the wrong question. The fact that we're getting an enhanced version of the game at all is a pretty good thing - Nintendo could certainly say that it's cheaper and wiser to just keep a GCN version and not worry about Wii. Having said that, a specific version of Zelda is actually being developed for Wii as we speak. I don't know when we'll hear about it, but it's definitely being worked on...and it's being developed from the ground-up as a Wii title.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horendithas Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][quote name='James][font=arial']Having said that, a specific version of Zelda is actually being developed for Wii as we speak. I don't know when we'll hear about it, but it's definitely being worked on...and it's being developed from the ground-up as a Wii title.[/font][/quote]That?s like the ultimate teaser James. I don?t suppose you have more information on that? I feel like drooling here, I haven?t even got my hands on the newest Zelda and they are already working on another one! I may not get the Wii immediately, but once that comes out I definitely will be getting the Wii system. ;)[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [quote name='James']Control changes were made within the last five months. The game releases in November...so Nintendo have been making controller adjustments through the last few months of development. That is not unsual, regardless of the game and the platform.[/quote] "Controller adjustments" James? They're not just "controller adjustments." lol. It's an overhaul of what has been a perfectly suitable control scheme that has worked extremely well for multiple generations now, and for what would have still been a perfectly suitable control scheme for a [i]current-gen[/i] Zelda game...which is precisely what TP is, no matter which system it appears on. And I think that type of overhaul is entirely unusual, as I can't think of any game in recent memory that saw the type of radical change we saw in WiiTP, and in such a timeframe. I try to come up with other games and platforms to provide your point with some references and there's nothing I can recall. If you have a few games in mind, do tell. [quote]I think it comes down to unrealistic expectations though. If you actually consider how difficult it would be to have 1:1 motions for that type of game, it starts to make sense why Nintendo have chosen the existing method. This is especially true for a game that requires fast motions. You have to really consider the difference in the way different players are going to actually be using the remote (and being right or left-handed plays a part in this too). I think 1:1 motions would be great, but they are an unrealistic expectation at this stage, especially for Twilight Princess.[/quote] I never expected 1:1. I don't want to control every single slice, the pitch, the yaw, the angle, etc. But I DO want some type of influence more than what we're hearing about in WiiTP. If what we've heard is accurate, we're getting pre-canned attacks that are no different than smashing on the A button. Wanting something better than that--an motion sensing attack system with some more precision--is hardly looking for 1:1. Red Steel doesn't even have 1:1, and that's a game that entirely depends on a much, much more complicated swordplay than WiiTP ever will. But then again, Red Steel sounds a hell of a lot more advanced in terms of combat, and it appears it's pulling it off remarkably well, which begs the question: why are we given these paltry offerings in WiiTP? [quote]We can probably better determine whether or not the game will be negatively affected by the time it's released though - my advice would be to wait and see.[/quote] Wait and see is exactly what I'm doing. I'm waiting to see when the real Wii Zelda game is released. ~_^ [quote]This was the general impression I'd been getting from the thread, not from your specific comments. But that's irrelevant anyway - the Wii controls are not what I'd call "last minute changes" as such. They occurred toward the end of the development cycle but I think that "last minute" in this context is being used to mean "sloppy". And I don't think that's a correlation we can make at this stage.[/quote] I know a few people who took my comments to mean "sloppy." Perhaps the "general impression" here was coming from blatant misinterpretations on their part. [quote]So Nintendo is always making major changes even within the last six months of development; this is not unusual, it occurs with pretty much any game you can think of.[/quote] The [i]type[/i] of changes is important, though. Adding more dungeons is awesome. Wind Waker was lacking in dungeons. Visual style being changed in the first year of the dev cycle? If the style makes sense, sure. But more content or a different visual style is a pretty different "change" than what we're seeing here, and in the timeframe. Again, if you can think of some games that went through such a dramatic change in 4 months, after the dev team demonstrated said game to the public like we saw in WiiTP, please share. [quote]I agree that TP is a port. But it's unquestionably more than your standard port. It features visual improvements and fundamental gameplay enhancements.[/quote] More than a standard port? Visual improvements? I don't give two shats about visual improvements. The game was looking great on GCN itself. A graphical improvement was as unnecessary as porting TP over to the Wii was in the first place. Largely, I don't care how good or bad a game's graphics are. If I cared about visual quality, you wouldn't see me popping in classic N64 games or stuff like Smash TV each Friday night. I think it's tragic that so much of the gaming populace these days sees pretty visuals in remakes then starts drooling or whatever. Though I can't deny I wouldn't be opposed to a game like Starfox 64 or GoldenEye getting spruced up a bit for a re-release on one of the next-gen consoles, my interest in those re-releases would be for the gameplay, just like my lack of interest in WiiTP is because they aren't giving us anything truly new or Wii-exclusive when it comes to the gameplay. TP is still a traditional Zelda game. [quote]We aren't just talking a few new modes; we're talking about major changes to the way the game plays.[/quote] There are zero major changes to the way the game [i]plays[/i], though (TP, whether on GCN or Wii, is still a traditional Zelda game as per Iwata/Miyamoto). The changes are how we interact with the game. But fundamentally, nothing in WiiTP gameplay couldn't be done with traditional controllers, and that's because TP was designed for traditional controllers from the ground-up. [quote]I think you're just asking for way too much, honestly. You (and the rest of us) are lucky to be getting a Zelda anywhere near the console's launch.[/quote] I'm asking for way too much when I want more control in a Zelda game where the controller itself basically functions as an extension of whatever weapon Link is currently holding? lol. That's not asking for too much at all; on the contrary, that's asking for what should have been done in the first place. And if that means we don't get a Zelda title anywhere near the console's launch (not like N64 and GCN really launched with a Zelda title anyway)? I'm totally eager to wait, because it also means that GCN owners won't get snubbed since Nintendo would have made good on their word that Wii wouldn't get preferential treatment when it came to Twilight Princess (but we see that turned out to be a load of bull anyway with the GCN TP delayed until December). I'm totally eager to wait because it means that we'll be getting a true Wii Zelda as opposed to a port-job. I'm totally eager to wait because it means we'll be getting a better product. [quote]Some may ask whether or not it's even worth making a Wii-specific version of Zelda...but I think that's the wrong question.[/quote] It's certainly the wrong question because the question I'm asking is the complete opposite: Given what could be done with a true Wii Zelda game, why is it even worth porting a current-gen Zelda game and adding in a few pretty sparse features that don't really utilize the Wiimote to as full an extent as a true Wii Zelda game would? The answer is fairly obvious: launch sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 [quote name='indifference][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue']That?s like the ultimate teaser James. I don?t suppose you have more information on that? I feel like drooling here, I haven?t even got my hands on the newest Zelda and they are already working on another one! I may not get the Wii immediately, but once that comes out I definitely will be getting the Wii system. ;)[/COLOR][/quote] Of course they haven't released much information; the project has only been hinted at. If they started releasing tangible details, they would be overshadowing Twilight Princess. However, based on interviews, it seems as if some sort of cel shaded style is not out of the question, thank goodness. I do not know if Nintendo will be using cel shading for sure on the next Zelda, but it is obvious that they are not done with the technique (which is even more obvious thanks to the DS Zelda). By tye way, at least when you do a stabbing motion in Twilight Princess with the Wii controller, the onscreen action will reflect it. That's a nice break from the canned swinging, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 [quote]"Controller adjustments" James? They're not just "controller adjustments." lol. It's an overhaul of what has been a perfectly suitable control scheme that has worked extremely well for multiple generations now, and for what would have still been a perfectly suitable control scheme for a current-gen Zelda game...which is precisely what TP is, no matter which system it appears on. And I think that type of overhaul is entirely unusual, as I can't think of any game in recent memory that saw the type of radical change we saw in WiiTP, and in such a timeframe. I try to come up with other games and platforms to provide your point with some references and there's nothing I can recall. If you have a few games in mind, do tell. [/quote] [font=arial]There are plenty of games that go through these types of changes within their last few months of development. A great example would be TimeShift. This game went to another developer before it was released and it was completely retooled. Other games go through similar shifts within the final year of development - even with a game like Super Mario 64, the bulk of the game's levels and visuals were added within the final year of development. As I said, this is not unusual. [i]Most[/i] Nintendo games are undergoing fundamental changes within the final six months of the cycle. Games that don't are the exception, not the rule.[/font] [quote]I never expected 1:1. I don't want to control every single slice, the pitch, the yaw, the angle, etc. But I DO want some type of influence more than what we're hearing about in WiiTP. If what we've heard is accurate, we're getting pre-canned attacks that are no different than smashing on the A button. Wanting something better than that--an motion sensing attack system with some more precision--is hardly looking for 1:1. Red Steel doesn't even have 1:1, and that's a game that entirely depends on a much, much more complicated swordplay than WiiTP ever will. But then again, Red Steel sounds a hell of a lot more advanced in terms of combat, and it appears it's pulling it off remarkably well, which begs the question: why are we given these paltry offerings in WiiTP?[/quote] [font=arial]What you're asking for is still more difficult to deliver than you understand. The bulk of Red Steel's development was concerned with remote sensitivity and movements - Nintendo do not have time to introduce such a system with Twilight Princess at this stage. The game would have to be delayed further to include the elements you are asking for. That's just the reality of it. Red Steel's sword movements are no different to those in Twilight Princess, except that you have to perform certain actions to trigger canned animation. There's slightly more interaction and control, but not much. I think this will become more obvious when you actually play the game and compare the two. The reason why you're being given movement-based swordfighting in TP is because the fans were asking for it and Nintendo took the time to include it. However, as mentioned, including a more interactive swordplay system just isn't possible at this stage of development - it's about making choices as to what you can comfortably include and what you can't.[/font] [quote]Wait and see is exactly what I'm doing. I'm waiting to see when the real Wii Zelda game is released. ~_^[/quote] [font=arial]I just think it's unnecessary to complain about inclusions in Twilight Princess at this stage. As I said, the fact that we're getting anything more than the regular GCN game is good - if the controls in the Wii version end up not interesting you, simply stick with the GCN version and wait it out.[/font] [quote]I know a few people who took my comments to mean "sloppy." Perhaps the "general impression" here was coming from blatant misinterpretations on their part.[/quote] [font=arial]No, I don't think so. You're clearly dissatisfied with these inclusions and the way they've been done - you are saying that we're getting something that is essentially a watered-down version of what we should be getting. That would indicate an implication of sloppiness on Nintendo's part. I wouldn't say it's a misinterpretation at all, lol. [/font] [quote]The type of changes is important, though. Adding more dungeons is awesome. Wind Waker was lacking in dungeons. Visual style being changed in the first year of the dev cycle? If the style makes sense, sure. But more content or a different visual style is a pretty different "change" than what we're seeing here, and in the timeframe. Again, if you can think of some games that went through such a dramatic change in 4 months, after the dev team demonstrated said game to the public like we saw in WiiTP, please share.[/quote] [font=arial]I just don't think you really understand what's involved when it comes to the development process. As I said above, many games - particularly Nintendo games - go through radical changes within the last half of a development period. The changes in TP are significant, but you have to understand that by this stage, all of the fundamentals were in place. The game was [i]already[/i] using freestyle control that was attached to certain functions (ie: the bow and arrow). Implementing this into swordfighting was not particularly complex, but it did require significant testing. Making something closer to Red Steel or a 1:1 movement [i]would[/i] have been sufficiently difficult so as to warrant an extension of the development cycle. Many games have changed dramatically after being shown to the public. Star Fox DS is one example, another example would be Super Mario Sunshine - that game was massively changed after it was first shown to the public (and when it was shown, it was well into development). As I said, games change radically after being shown to the public all the time - this is not uncommon.[/font] [quote]More than a standard port? Visual improvements? I don't give two shats about visual improvements. The game was looking great on GCN itself. A graphical improvement was as unnecessary as porting TP over to the Wii was in the first place. Largely, I don't care how good or bad a game's graphics are. If I cared about visual quality, you wouldn't see me popping in classic N64 games or stuff like Smash TV each Friday night. I think it's tragic that so much of the gaming populace these days sees pretty visuals in remakes then starts drooling or whatever. Though I can't deny I wouldn't be opposed to a game like Starfox 64 or GoldenEye getting spruced up a bit for a re-release on one of the next-gen consoles, my interest in those re-releases would be for the gameplay, just like my lack of interest in WiiTP is because they aren't giving us anything truly new or Wii-exclusive when it comes to the gameplay. TP is still a traditional Zelda game. [/quote] [font=arial]That's all fine and I basically agree with you. I am not saying that visual improvements really matter to me, lol. I'm just pointing out that the Wii version does include a widescreen mode and so on and that these improvements, while not fundamentally important to you or I, will certainly matter to plenty of people. TP is definitely still a traditional Zelda game. It's the last traditional Zelda game. So enjoy it while it's there.[/font] [quote]There are zero major changes to the way the game plays, though (TP, whether on GCN or Wii, is still a traditional Zelda game as per Iwata/Miyamoto). The changes are how we interact with the game. But fundamentally, nothing in WiiTP gameplay couldn't be done with traditional controllers, and that's because TP was designed for traditional controllers from the ground-up. [/quote] [font=arial]Yes, it's still a traditional Zelda game. But the game feels remarkably different on Wii, trust me. It's quite a different experience with its completely revamped controls. This is what I would call a fundamental change. It will make a big difference to the way you play, particularly when it comes to puzzle solving and combat. Control is how we interact with the game environment...it's one of the most fundamental aspects of any game. So believe me, these changes make quite a difference. TP was designed for traditional controllers...on GameCube. Substantial changes were made to the Wii version so that the new controls would gel with the game's design.[/font] [quote]I'm asking for way too much when I want more control in a Zelda game where the controller itself basically functions as an extension of whatever weapon Link is currently holding? lol. That's not asking for too much at all; on the contrary, that's asking for what should have been done in the first place. And if that means we don't get a Zelda title anywhere near the console's launch (not like N64 and GCN really launched with a Zelda title anyway)? I'm totally eager to wait, because it also means that GCN owners won't get snubbed since Nintendo would have made good on their word that Wii wouldn't get preferential treatment when it came to Twilight Princess (but we see that turned out to be a load of bull anyway with the GCN TP delayed until December). I'm totally eager to wait because it means that we'll be getting a true Wii Zelda as opposed to a port-job. I'm totally eager to wait because it means we'll be getting a better product. [/quote] [font=arial]Yes, that's asking too much [i]for Twilight Princess[/i]. You can not expect Nintendo to make that kind of inclusion at this stage. Is that a realistic expectation for a [i]new[/i] Zelda game? Sure. But that's not what we're discussing here - we are discussing what Nintendo is doing with TP. If you want to wait and ignore TP, that's totally fine. What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing sloppy or rushed or slap-job about Twilight Princess on Wii. That is the only point I am debating, because I don't think it's a reasonable point.[/font] [quote]It's certainly the wrong question because the question I'm asking is the complete opposite: Given what could be done with a true Wii Zelda game, why is it even worth porting a current-gen Zelda game and adding in a few pretty sparse features that don't really utilize the Wiimote to as full an extent as a true Wii Zelda game would? The answer is fairly obvious: launch sales. [/quote] [font=arial]I don't think that a complete change to game control would classify as "sparse features" and I think if you actually try both versions when they release, this will become somewhat clearer. As to why Nintendo made the choice, I agree with you. But gamers are getting a good deal, lol. The GCN version is still arriving regardless, but we're also getting a Wii version with some pretty significant enhancements. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Even if you don't want the Wii version, you're still getting the GameCube version. If you have Wii, you can get the Wii version if you want. It's basically win-win. lol[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodbye, Face Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 [font=arial][size=1]I've been following this thread for a while and I figured I'd post. I agree with James, but I can also understand why Papa Smurf is upset (to say the least, lol) about the controls. We, as regular ol' gamers, have no idea what it's actually going to feel like when we swing the sword in the game. I mean, Nintendo obviously tested it out and they wouldn't have gone through with it if they weren't satisfied with how it felt. If they like it enough to make it a reality on the Wii, it's fine with me and I'm happy to try it out. What I'd like to see is the option to say, toggle the use of the remote as the sword, just to appease people like Smurf. I dont' see how that could really be hard, considering that they had basically the whole game done without that feature. I mean, all they'd really have to do is flip a switch in the game to make the sword go back to the A button, right?[/font][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 [quote name='James']A great example would be TimeShift. This game went to another developer before it was released and it was completely retooled.[/quote] Saber Interactive is still the dev team. The publisher was changed. And the core controls and gameplay has remained intact. The changes that took place were largely plot-related, as well. [quote]Other games go through similar shifts within the final year of development - even with a game like Super Mario 64, the bulk of the game's levels and visuals were added within the final year of development.[/quote] [i]Levels and visuals[/i]. Not re-doing portions of the control scheme. lol [quote]As I said, this is not unusual. Most Nintendo games are undergoing fundamental changes within the final six months of the cycle. Games that don't are the exception, not the rule.[/quote] Changes, yes. But not the kinds of changes we see in WiiTP. This WiiTP overhaul is still very unusual. [quote]Many games have changed dramatically after being shown to the public. Star Fox DS is one example[/quote] Starfox DS didn't change. lol. We still got the same short and Advance Wars-knock-off-in-space pale-imitation-of-classic-Starfox we saw at E3. And the game suffered terribly for it, because it didn't feel like Starfox at all; it felt like a half-baked version of Missile Command with free-roaming kill count missions thrown in. We know the DS is very capable of re-producing N64 games (even though Mario 64DS was kind of a dud in terms of control), so while the goal of Starfox DS was admirable, it was still a bone-head decision, because there was this great template of a game called Starfox 64 but the only flight missions we got in Starfox DS were direct rips of Katina in Starfox 64...but nowhere near as thrilling or exciting. [quote]another example would be Super Mario Sunshine - that game was massively changed after it was first shown to the public (and when it was shown, it was well into development).[/quote] And those changes might be? When I picked up the game at release, it didn't look or feel terribly different from the very first previews back in 2001/2002. [quote]What you're asking for is still more difficult to deliver than you understand. The bulk of Red Steel's development was concerned with remote sensitivity and movements - Nintendo do not have time to introduce such a system with Twilight Princess at this stage. The game would have to be delayed further to include the elements you are asking for. That's just the reality of it[...]Making something closer to Red Steel or a 1:1 movement would have been sufficiently difficult so as to warrant an extension of the development cycle[..]Yes, that's asking too much for Twilight Princess. You can not expect Nintendo to make that kind of inclusion at this stage[...]Is that a realistic expectation for a new Zelda game? Sure. But that's not what we're discussing here - we are discussing what Nintendo is doing with TP.[/quote] It would have taken longer development time, yes. And here's the solution: ignore porting an existing GCN game and focus on bringing the real Wii Zelda to gamers. That would have been the smart decision there. Instead, Nintendo made a straight-up bone-head play. [quote]No, I don't think so. You're clearly dissatisfied with these inclusions and the way they've been done - you are saying that we're getting something that is essentially a watered-down version of what we should be getting. That would indicate an implication of sloppiness on Nintendo's part. I wouldn't say it's a misinterpretation at all, lol.[/quote] Sloppiness? No. It's an implication of "Why the hell do we get this paltry game when these changes should have been introduced in the first real Wii Zelda game?" I'm not dissatisfied. I'm just no longer excited about it because I took a step back to really ask myself what is there to be excited about. [quote]But the game feels remarkably different on Wii, trust me.[/quote] That's coming from hands-on experience? [quote]This is what I would call a fundamental change. It will make a big difference to the way you play, particularly when it comes to puzzle solving and combat. Control is how we interact with the game environment...it's one of the most fundamental aspects of any game. So believe me, these changes make quite a difference. TP was designed for traditional controllers...on GameCube. Substantial changes were made to the Wii version so that the new controls would gel with the game's design. I don't think that a complete change to game control would classify as "sparse features" and I think if you actually try both versions when they release, this will become somewhat clearer.[/quote] Fundamental changes? Substantial changes? Complete change to game control? That's describing pre-canned sword swings, bow targeting, and jiggling the nunchuck for a shield bash, right? And those phrases aren't discussing new ways to use the Hookshot, grappling hook, bombs, magic spells, hammers, lassos, boomerang and so on? I'm sorry, James, but it doesn't sound like fundamental or substantial changes here. Because there's nothing fundamental changing. The game is still the same. Oh, wait, you can use the Wiimote to activate pre-canned attack sequences and aim the bow. Pardon the sarcasm, but that's such a dramatic change. lol. [quote]If you want to wait and ignore TP, that's totally fine. What I'm trying to say is that there's nothing sloppy or rushed or slap-job about Twilight Princess on Wii. That is the only point I am debating, because I don't think it's a reasonable point.[/quote] Again, the game could play extremely well. I don't care about that. Nowhere here have I been even implying the game is going to be sloppy. But I AM saying it sounds incredibly rushed and half-assed. They introduced these changes with 6 months left out of the dev process. They obviously felt that including some paltry little pre-canned sword swings was more important than resisting the allure of a Zelda launch title, and giving the first Wii Zelda the proper length of dev time? Then I feel their priorities are completely screwed-up and that WiiTP's motion sensor features are most certainly rush-jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 [quote]Saber Interactive is still the dev team. The publisher was changed. And the core controls and gameplay has remained intact. The changes that took place were largely plot-related, as well. [/quote] [font=arial]Oh, sorry, I had the wrong game title. The game I meant was [i]Prey[/i].[/font] [quote]Levels and visuals. Not re-doing portions of the control scheme. lol[/quote] [font=arial]Semantics. The point is that games undergo major revisions within their final months of development on a frequent basis. Levels and visuals are generally more difficult to change than a control scheme, too.[/font] [quote]Changes, yes. But not the kinds of changes we see in WiiTP. This WiiTP overhaul is still very unusual.[/quote] [font=arial]Not really. Again, it's semantics and for what point really? The overhaul that TP is going through is really no different to what many other games have been through (though not specifically related to Wii). But even if you only include Wii, there are a few games that are now being moved over to the platform and are undergoing significant control changes. So there's not much to say here really.[/font] [quote]Starfox DS didn't change. lol. We still got the same short and Advance Wars-knock-off-in-space pale-imitation-of-classic-Starfox we saw at E3. And the game suffered terribly for it, because it didn't feel like Starfox at all; it felt like a half-baked version of Missile Command with free-roaming kill count missions thrown in. We know the DS is very capable of re-producing N64 games (even though Mario 64DS was kind of a dud in terms of control), so while the goal of Starfox DS was admirable, it was still a bone-head decision, because there was this great template of a game called Starfox 64 but the only flight missions we got in Starfox DS were direct rips of Katina in Starfox 64...but nowhere near as thrilling or exciting. [/quote] [font=arial]Actually, Star Fox DS changed a whole lot from what we first saw at E3. Entire levels were changed/added, the visuals were significantly overhauled and the controls were modified and tweaked. As for the wisdom of making the game as they did...I really have no comment on that. That will generally just come down to one's own opinion.[/font] [quote]And those changes might be? When I picked up the game at release, it didn't look or feel terribly different from the very first previews back in 2001/2002.[/quote] [font=arial]Go and take a look at N-Sider's "Mario is Melting" article from 2001 and you will have a strong idea as to how significantly the game changed. For one, the [i]entire[/i] visual design changed. For another, most of the enemies were changed and replaced...and the levels shown in the first build were pretty much entirely scrapped and redeveloped. Ever heard of Miyamoto's famous "upending of the tea table"?[/font] [quote]It would have taken longer development time, yes. And here's the solution: ignore porting an existing GCN game and focus on bringing the real Wii Zelda to gamers. That would have been the smart decision there. Instead, Nintendo made a straight-up bone-head play. [/quote] [font=arial]It's not a bone-head play in any respect. WiiZelda is being developed parallel to Twilight Princess, lol. I guarantee you, this port hasn't had any significant impact on the development schedule of the next Zelda.[/font] [quote]Sloppiness? No. It's an implication of "Why the hell do we get this paltry game when these changes should have been introduced in the first real Wii Zelda game?" I'm not dissatisfied. I'm just no longer excited about it because I took a step back to really ask myself what is there to be excited about. [/quote] [font=arial]Well, we keep kind of going back and forth here...the point is, you aren't happy with their decision and you don't think it's worth having TP on Wii. That's fine and you don't need to buy the game. That's another issue entirely.[/font] [quote]That's coming from hands-on experience?[/quote] [font=arial]That's coming from hands-on experience from colleagues who have actually played the game. Moreover, you only need to read any published article about the hands-on experience. There's plenty of evidence out there, you just have to read it.[/font] [quote]Fundamental changes? Substantial changes? Complete change to game control? That's describing pre-canned sword swings, bow targeting, and jiggling the nunchuck for a shield bash, right? And those phrases aren't discussing new ways to use the Hookshot, grappling hook, bombs, magic spells, hammers, lassos, boomerang and so on? I'm sorry, James, but it doesn't sound like fundamental or substantial changes here. Because there's nothing fundamental changing. The game is still the same. Oh, wait, you can use the Wiimote to activate pre-canned attack sequences and aim the bow. Pardon the sarcasm, but that's such a dramatic change. lol. [/quote] [font=arial]You're missing the point, Alex. I'm not saying that any of the items themselves have changed. I'm saying that the [i]way you use them has changed[/i]. This is a fundamental change and it has fundamental effects on gameplay - aiming with a freehand system is radically different from aiming with an analog stick. Yes, in both cases you are "aiming an arrow", but that's a shortsighted analysis - the feel is completely different in each case (and your own accuracy and game experience will also change as a result). So, yes, these are fundamental changes to [i]play control[/i].[/font] [quote]Again, the game could play extremely well. I don't care about that. Nowhere here have I been even implying the game is going to be sloppy. But I AM saying it sounds incredibly rushed and half-assed. They introduced these changes with 6 months left out of the dev process. They obviously felt that including some paltry little pre-canned sword swings was more important than resisting the allure of a Zelda launch title, and giving the first Wii Zelda the proper length of dev time? Then I feel their priorities are completely screwed-up and that WiiTP's motion sensor features are most certainly rush-jobs. [/quote] [font=arial]As I said, we are still getting the Wii-based Zelda. So that's not an issue and it never has been. In terms of Twilight Princess for Wii, I can only reiterate...you really need to have an understanding of the game's development in order to determine that it's a "rush job". If Twilight Princess's control changes are a rush job, then just about every game Nintendo (or any other developer) makes can be considered the same. These sorts of changes (and often even larger ones) are frequently made to games within those final few months of development - this is the time when the game is being tightened up and when final additions are being included. That doesn't mean they are being "rushed in", because such additions still go through extensive testing and development. Nintendo is one company who always works to the wire, but this has nothing to do with rushing and more to do with being particular certain about quality.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 So, can either of you confirm whether or not the part where Link holds the cats is still in? That's what everyone here really wants to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 [quote name='James']Oh, sorry, I had the wrong game title. The game I meant was Prey.[/quote] So going from a 3D Realms FPS featuring portals that essentially disguised load times, lessened processor strain and had the potential for independent room construction to a Human Head Studios FPS that features portals used to disguise load times, lessen processor strain, and expand upon the original potential of independent room construction...is considered being "completely re-tooled"? [quote]Semantics. The point is that games undergo major revisions within their final months of development on a frequent basis. Levels and visuals are generally more difficult to change than a control scheme, too. Not really. Again, it's semantics and for what point really? The overhaul that TP is going through is really no different to what many other games have been through (though not specifically related to Wii). But even if you only include Wii, there are a few games that are now being moved over to the platform and are undergoing significant control changes. So there's not much to say here really. Actually, Star Fox DS changed a whole lot from what we first saw at E3. Entire levels were changed/added, the visuals were significantly overhauled and the controls were modified and tweaked.[/quote] How is this a game of semantics? You said that there are plenty of games that go through "these types of changes" but so far, I haven't seen anything yet in your examples that isn't the typical development cycle changes. Levels and visuals are the usual changes that occur. Those types of changes are to be expected. They're the usual stuff. By this point in time, we expect the visuals and levels to change. Hell, we even know that characters will likely change dramatically. But that absolutely is not the same type of changes we're seeing with WiiTP. This is not a game of semantics. I'm talking about what we would routinely see regarding changes during a game's development cycle versus what we rarely, if ever, see during a game's development cycle. And what we routinely see is your examples. What we rarely, if ever, see is what is being done with WiiTP. So I don't know why you insist that there's fundamentally no difference between adding in some bland and repetitive "Kill X number of enemies" missions in Starfox DS and what we see regarding the control scheme in WiiTP, because I certainly see tremendous differences between them, just like I see tremendous differences between Super Mario Sunshine's changes and WiiTP, just like I see tremendous differences between Prey and WiiTP's respective changes You appear to be getting at "Change is change," as if the addition of a few levels or graphical improvement is in the same ballpark as re-doing sword attacks to be used with a motion sensor for a game that was ported over to a brand-new, next-gen console so it could be a launch title. That's not the same ballpark. I don't even think you could consider it the same ****ing sport, to paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson. [quote]As for the wisdom of making the game as they did...I really have no comment on that. That will generally just come down to one's own opinion.[/quote] Don't know why Pulp Fiction is again popping in here (probably just the mood I'm in right now, lol), but you've got to have an opinion! I think it was a stupid move to do a Starfox (Missile) Command on a system that absolutely could support a Starfox game of N64 caliber and depth. The Starfox franchise had been dropped on its head twice out of two different games on a single system. Starfox Adventures and Starfox Assault. Missile Command should have been the last thing on anyone's mind when it came to making a Starfox game. [quote]Go and take a look at N-Sider's "Mario is Melting" article from 2001 and you will have a strong idea as to how significantly the game changed.[/quote] I read it. I watched the same trailer. Much of the article you wrote deals with hypotheticals and theories that don't have much support in the video itself. We're given very quick jump cuts throughout the trailer, but nowhere does it imply Mario's health would be based on the power of the FLUDD device, nor would wiping the sweat from his brow be any more significant than the obviously purely cosmetic aesthetic touch it was. Mario standing in the shade of the tree with the FLUDD device being empty is completely coincidental and doesn't have any relationship, even within the limited vacuum context of the trailer. Any changes that occurred were largely because the article was conjecture without any real, concrete details. And anyway, that trailer was a demo level with demo enemies. It was going to be changed. [quote]Ever heard of Miyamoto's famous "upending of the tea table"?[/quote] Yes. So let's talk about it. Did the FLUDD in SMS have any profound impact on later Mario games? Did it upend the tea table of the Mario franchise? Mario 64 certainly upended the tea table (still one of the best platformers today). Or perhaps a better discussion about Miyamoto's favorite catchphrase pertains to Zelda. Ocarina of Time certainly did some fabulous things for both the platforming genre and the Zelda franchise. It absolutely upended the tea table for the industry. It set a new standard. Wind Waker? Not so much. It definitely introduced some fun ideas regarding character design with Link's eye movement, but overall, it was a fun and simple summer game that didn't have a very tremendous impact, just like SMS. Twilight Princess. It's the last hurrah for traditional Zelda games before Wii takes over. We assume it represents the finest traditional Zelda game we'll ever see. Its goal basically is to have the traditional Zelda game go out with one last amazing bang. But upending the tea table? I don't tend to view "last hurrahs" as necessarily starting the revolution. So what about Wii itself then? It's got the [i]potential[/i] to upend the tea table, and developers obviously are totally excited about that potential, but it'll still be a year or so yet until we know if Wii truly upended the tea table. Certainly Wii may have a lasting impression on the industry and inspire developers and designers to be more inclusive in the future, but whether we'll see a true revolution remains to be seen. Currently, the Wii is a lot like the DS: brand-new technology initially supported only by gimmicky launch titles. It'll still be another year or so before we see the Wii equivalents of Brain Age or Metroid Hunters. [quote]It's not a bone-head play in any respect. WiiZelda is being developed parallel to Twilight Princess, lol. I guarantee you, this port hasn't had any significant impact on the development schedule of the next Zelda.[/quote] It absolutely was a bone-head play. lol. Nintendo is a company that prides itself on customer confidence and making sure its customers know that Nintendo isn't going to ditch them. That's been their message for a while now. That's the message Iwata and Miyamoto have been conveying for as long as I can remember, and that was sure as hell the message when they promised GCN owners that Wii wouldn't get preferential treatment when it came to Twilight Princess. That Twilight Princess wasn't going to jump ship to Wii and leave GCN owners with nothing. Granted, GCN is still getting Twilight Princess, but that's almost an entire month after Wii, and the damage has already been done. Twilight Princess was going to be the last hurrah for the GCN. It was going to be one last thank you to the gamers who stuck by the Gamecube when everything looked bleak as hell, who supported the Zelda series even after Wind Waker turned out to be half of a game. Twilight Princess, for all intents and purposes, was a game for GCN owners. That's what Nintendo had been guaranteeing them. Twilight Princess would basically ignore the Wii. But then that changed. TP was announced for the Wii. Okay, it kind of bothers gamers, but they kept faith in Nintendo. The GCN TP was still coming. And plus, it appears that both versions will have a simultaneous release. There was even talk of a dual disc version. Gamers were still happy with that. They weren't getting slighted. But then that changed. Now WiiTP is going to have a release date of November 19th, and GCN TP is going retail in the middle of December. This is basically a corporate sliming. "Sorry, but we're focusing on WiiTP more now because we want it to have an earlier launch so it coincides with our new system's release, but don't worry. We haven't forgotten you. You'll still get your version of the game a month or so after we've released WiiTP." All of that happened because Nintendo wanted launch sales for Wii. Can I blame them for being smart businessmen? No. They made a good move from a business standpoint. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid bone-headed move from a customer standpoint. Whether or not WiiTP would have been cutting into development of Wii Zelda was never my point anyway. I wasn't implying that focusing on one detracted from the other in terms of development time. What I was getting at was the decision made was annoying, stupid and wholly misguided...because it was. It alienated the customers who believed what Nintendo had pledged. It gave a very bad impression as to what Nintendo really wants to do here at a time when public trust is absolutely critical, because we've seen the reactions to Sony's bizarre stagings. At this point, Microsoft is the most reliable company because we know where they stand more than either of the other two. They're totally dedicated to the 360. There is no mixed message from them...well, at least the mixed messages have been minimal. But what Nintendo pulled recently with Twilight Princess is absolutely sending mixed messages. It's only natural for a company to more favor their new system coming out. But not when they've already pledged to continue to support a previous console with a game that would have remained exclusive to said console based on all of the press releases up until Wii became an option. It's a matter of consumer confidence, really. [quote]Well, we keep kind of going back and forth here...the point is, you aren't happy with their decision and you don't think it's worth having TP on Wii. That's fine and you don't need to buy the game. That's another issue entirely.[/quote] So let's make it perfectly clear then. I think they shot themselves in the foot here from a consumer standpoint. Of course people are still going to buy the game no matter if it's GCN or Wii. But they'll certainly remember what happened. And we both know that consumers remember lousy experiences. [quote]That's coming from hands-on experience from colleagues who have actually played the game. Moreover, you only need to read any published article about the hands-on experience. There's plenty of evidence out there, you just have to read it.[/quote] The hands-on previews and experiences I've been reading with total skepticism for the past few months, right? [quote]I'm not saying that any of the items themselves have changed.[/quote] Nor am I expecting items themselves to change. I'm expecting new ways to use them that don't involve pre-canned swings... [quote]I'm saying that the way you use them has changed. This is a fundamental change and it has fundamental effects on gameplay - aiming with a freehand system is radically different from aiming with an analog stick. Yes, in both cases you are "aiming an arrow", but that's a shortsighted analysis - the feel is completely different in each case (and your own accuracy and game experience will also change as a result). So, yes, these are fundamental changes to play control.[/quote] ...or targeting reticles. Still calling it "aiming an arrow" is not as short-sighted an analysis as you think, James, especially when there are some incredible possibilities to make the Wiimote act like a real bow. In the gameplay demonstration, we both saw how the player was naturally drawing his arm back a bit, right? He's already using it like a real bow. But a real bow doesn't simply require you to point and shoot like we're still seeing in WiiTP. With a real bow, you need to hold the arrow in place while you draw that string back and keep your target in the sights placed along the bow grip. The velocity and distance of your arrow are going to depend on how far you draw the string back. You want to talk about something that's a fundamental change to play control? Holding the B button (you use your index and middle fingers to keep the arrow nocked), pulling the Wiimote back, having a closer view of the bow on-screen with the bow sights aligned near the center, with the velocity and distance of the arrow dependent on how far you bring the Wiimote back, and releasing the B button to release the arrow. That would be a fundamental change to play control. Simply transferring control of the targeting reticle from a joystick to the Wiimote is not a fundamental change to play control. [quote]As I said, we are still getting the Wii-based Zelda. So that's not an issue and it never has been.[/quote] And as I said, they aren't giving the first Zelda on Wii the proper amount of dev time because essentially, the first Zelda on Wii is a port of a GCN game that is not built around Wii at all...and what makes it Wii-related at all has very recently been added circa E3 2006. So really, considering the bizarre process we've been seeing regarding release dates, system debuts, game changes and all? They're not giving Zelda on Wii anywhere near enough time here. The motion sensor features in WiiTP are nowhere near as developed as WiiTP, the "flagship" Wii Zelda title apparently, need to be. The only reason, I see, that people are being so forgiving is that they're happy to get table scraps, essentially. I've consistently heard "We're lucky to get this" in the apparent defenses of Nintendo. And I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. It's particularly a load of crap considering that Nintendo has been the only company over the past few years who has expressed an honest consideration for providing gamers with complete games. Releasing TP on Wii with the current motion sensor features is not providing gamers with a complete game. The first Zelda game on Wii [i]should be better[/i] than a mere port. Nintendo knows this but apparently, from what I can gather, they're just trying to get by through this weird port. If I sound overly cynical, thank you. I'd rather sound overly cynical than being content with what amounts to half of a Wii game. EDIT: And Charles, I hope Link still gets to play with his p-ssycat. Though I'm not entirely sure if it's still included. *crosses fingers* The franchise has been needing some good p-ssy action lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 [quote]So going from a 3D Realms FPS featuring portals that essentially disguised load times, lessened processor strain and had the potential for independent room construction to a Human Head Studios FPS that features portals used to disguise load times, lessen processor strain, and expand upon the original potential of independent room construction...is considered being "completely re-tooled"? [/quote] [font=arial]Absolutely, but not for the reasons you listed. What you're talking about is the overall concept - you're either glossing over or are unaware of the actual changes that took place in the game. The [i]entire[/i] game was redesigned from the ground up. The new developer actually scrapped most of what had already been built - even the game engine was significantly tweaked. This is basically common knowledge in the industry and I thought it was common knowledge among most gamers as well, even those who barely followed the progress of Prey. Apparently that is not the case, lol.[/font] [quote]How is this a game of semantics? You said that there are plenty of games that go through "these types of changes" but so far, I haven't seen anything yet in your examples that isn't the typical development cycle changes. Levels and visuals are the usual changes that occur. Those types of changes are to be expected. They're the usual stuff. By this point in time, we expect the visuals and levels to change. Hell, we even know that characters will likely change dramatically. [/quote] [font=arial]Right. So why are you debating this point when there is nothing to debate? We [i]are[/i] dealing in semantics. What I am telling you is that games frequently undergo [b]major revisions[/b] even within the final few months of development. This may or may not include graphics (texturing, modelling, animation), A.I. (changes to routines), additions of major elements (levels, modes, etc), control changes (mapping changes, modifications to allow the use of peripherals, etc) and so on.[/font] [quote]But that absolutely is not the same type of changes we're seeing with WiiTP. This is not a game of semantics. I'm talking about what we would routinely see regarding changes during a game's development cycle versus what we rarely, if ever, see during a game's development cycle. And what we routinely see is your examples. What we rarely, if ever, see is what is being done with WiiTP. [/quote] [font=arial]You are missing the broader point though. The changes we are seeing in Twilight Princess are unique to that game - but the visual changes in one game to the next are always unique to the game itself. The actual point is that major changes do occur in this period - controller changes included. If you want to discuss games that have had their controls modified during development to run specifically on Wii, there are plenty examples of that. So Twilight Princess is not unique in that specific instance. At the end of the day, we can split hairs as much as we like...but the overall point is essentially the same here. On a development level none of this is particularly unusual.[/font] [quote]So I don't know why you insist that there's fundamentally no difference between adding in some bland and repetitive "Kill X number of enemies" missions in Starfox DS and what we see regarding the control scheme in WiiTP, because I certainly see tremendous differences between them, just like I see tremendous differences between Super Mario Sunshine's changes and WiiTP, just like I see tremendous differences between Prey and WiiTP's respective changes [/quote] [font=arial]Right, but again, you are either missing the point or deliberately splitting hairs. The changes that each game goes through are always going to be different. Radically changing Super Mario Sunshine's levels is definitely different from changing Prey's levels - the style of each game is different and the demands for specific gameplay types are different. What's important is that each for each of these games, it was necessary to make major changes during the development cycle - even toward the end of that cycle. That is specifically what we are talking about. Going into the detail of "SMS is different from Prey is different from TP" is actually a seperate issue and it's also an obvious observation - every game [i]is[/i] different and of course, the demands on developers are always different each time.[/font] [quote]You appear to be getting at "Change is change," as if the addition of a few levels or graphical improvement is in the same ballpark as re-doing sword attacks to be used with a motion sensor for a game that was ported over to a brand-new, next-gen console so it could be a launch title. That's not the same ballpark. I don't even think you could consider it the same ****ing sport, to paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson. [/quote] [font=arial]You're implying that the addition of "a few new levels" is somehow not on the same level, when in fact, it's a much more difficult and time-consuming process than modifying a game's controls. So in actual fact, Twilight Princess's changes are far less intensive on the development staff than some of the other examples in this thread. On the surface these changes are all very different and of course, the end results are different. But again, that is missing the point - the point is that most games go through fundamental changes late in the development cycle. These changes are always different, but they regularly happen. If you want to talk about how TP's changes are different from another specific game, that's fine, I'm happy to do that...but that's a different discussion. That doesn't get back to the point of how late something is added in a development cycle and what this means.[/font] [quote]Don't know why Pulp Fiction is again popping in here (probably just the mood I'm in right now, lol), but you've got to have an opinion! I think it was a stupid move to do a Starfox (Missile) Command on a system that absolutely could support a Starfox game of N64 caliber and depth. The Starfox franchise had been dropped on its head twice out of two different games on a single system. Starfox Adventures and Starfox Assault. Missile Command should have been the last thing on anyone's mind when it came to making a Starfox game. [/quote] [font=arial]I agree with you basically. This is a different discussion to the one we're having now, but yeah, I agree with you. The Starfox franchise has pretty much been bastardised on more than one occasion now and I don't think any fans are especially happy about that.[/font] [quote]I read it. I watched the same trailer. Much of the article you wrote deals with hypotheticals and theories that don't have much support in the video itself. We're given very quick jump cuts throughout the trailer, but nowhere does it imply Mario's health would be based on the power of the FLUDD device, nor would wiping the sweat from his brow be any more significant than the obviously purely cosmetic aesthetic touch it was. Mario standing in the shade of the tree with the FLUDD device being empty is completely coincidental and doesn't have any relationship, even within the limited vacuum context of the trailer. Any changes that occurred were largely because the article was conjecture without any real, concrete details. And anyway, that trailer was a demo level with demo enemies. It was going to be changed.[/quote] [font=arial]You're again picking up on the wrong point here. My article itself was speculative and it had nothing to do with what the actual game included. My point wasn't about the content of the article, it was about the actual demo footage - sorry if I didn't make that clear enough. The game's design changed massively from that first demonstration. It also changed again after E3 (where a playable build was shown). Again, this is normal.[/font] [quote]Yes. So let's talk about it. Did the FLUDD in SMS have any profound impact on later Mario games? Did it upend the tea table of the Mario franchise? Mario 64 certainly upended the tea table (still one of the best platformers today). [/quote] [font=arial]This is not what's meant by "upending the tea table". The phrase relates to what I have been discussing here - specifically, the idea that even mid-way through a single game's development, it is sometimes necessary to actually start all over again...or at least, to change the game's direction or make significant modifications to fundamental aspects of a game.[/font] [quote]It absolutely was a bone-head play. lol. Nintendo is a company that prides itself on customer confidence and making sure its customers know that Nintendo isn't going to ditch them. That's been their message for a while now. That's the message Iwata and Miyamoto have been conveying for as long as I can remember, and that was sure as hell the message when they promised GCN owners that Wii wouldn't get preferential treatment when it came to Twilight Princess. That Twilight Princess wasn't going to jump ship to Wii and leave GCN owners with nothing. Granted, GCN is still getting Twilight Princess, but that's almost an entire month after Wii, and the damage has already been done. [/quote] [font=arial]I agree with this sentiment, but I am not arguing in Nintendo's favor on this point. I am just saying that both platforms are getting the game and that TP on Wii is a good thing rather than a bad thing - that's all I'm pointing out. If I were not going to buy a Wii on launch, I'd be pissed off that I have to wait a month, because I'm a big Zelda fan. So that's a fair point.[/font] [quote]Whether or not WiiTP would have been cutting into development of Wii Zelda was never my point anyway. I wasn't implying that focusing on one detracted from the other in terms of development time. What I was getting at was the decision made was annoying, stupid and wholly misguided...because it was. [/quote] [font=arial]You can't really say that it was a good business decision and then say it was misguided; it [i]was[/i] a clever and a good decision. Sure, the GCN delay is annoying. I grant you that and I agree with that. But I'm getting Wii and I want the Wii version of the game. I'm sure many potential Wii owners will feel the same way. So, you know, Nintendo isn't going to please everyone with this, but they're probably improving their chances if anything. I'm getting Wii and I'm happy to be getting TP - that's the way I view it. I understand why GCN owners might be unhappy about the delay, but that's the only real negative of the whole issue I think.[/font] [quote]So let's make it perfectly clear then. I think they shot themselves in the foot here from a consumer standpoint. Of course people are still going to buy the game no matter if it's GCN or Wii. But they'll certainly remember what happened. And we both know that consumers remember lousy experiences. [/quote] [font=arial]Yep, I grant you that. But it's a month-long delay, which will only affect the most hardcore users. Wii owners won't care and Nintendo fans in general are used to delays that are far more lenthy. The [i]reason[/i] for the delay is annoying, but I doubt this will have any longterm impact. It's not on the same level as, say, Sony's PS3 price annoucement, haha.[/font] [quote] The hands-on previews and experiences I've been reading with total skepticism for the past few months, right? [/quote] [font=arial]Skepticism? What have you been reading? lol. We must not be reading the same impressions. I can produce quotes if you really want me to, but I don't think it's really something that's necessary.[/font] [quote]Nor am I expecting items themselves to change. I'm expecting new ways to use them that don't involve pre-canned swings...[/quote] [font=arial]Right, exactly. You've got an expectation that isn't being met, because it can't actually be met in this particular game. Perhaps it will be met next time 'round. We hope so anyway.[/font] [quote]...or targeting reticles. Still calling it "aiming an arrow" is not as short-sighted an analysis as you think, James, especially when there are some incredible possibilities to make the Wiimote act like a real bow. In the gameplay demonstration, we both saw how the player was naturally drawing his arm back a bit, right? He's already using it like a real bow. But a real bow doesn't simply require you to point and shoot like we're still seeing in WiiTP. With a real bow, you need to hold the arrow in place while you draw that string back and keep your target in the sights placed along the bow grip. The velocity and distance of your arrow are going to depend on how far you draw the string back. [/quote] [font=arial]Okay, your first paragraph basically answers your own question. I'm not going to get into how it should be to make it 100% realistic...that is, again, a different discussion. What I will do is reiterate my original point, which you have further confirmed in your first paragraph; using the bow and arrow with the Wii remote [i]feels quite different[/i] than simply moving an analog stick - the accuracy and the feel of the motion is a radically different experience. That's my point. In terms of what it [i]should[/i] or [i]could[/i] be, well, we can have that discussion and share ideas...that's fine. But that's not actually what we were discussing earlier. I'm happy to discuss that part of it though, if you want. lol[/font] [quote]Simply transferring control of the targeting reticle from a joystick to the Wiimote is not a fundamental change to play control. [/quote] [font=arial]Yes, it is, because with the stick you only have to move your thumb. With the remote you have to draw the bow, hold it, then release it. You also have to aim with your whole arm and hand, not just your thumb. It's very different. If the concept doesn't make that point in an obvious way, playing it will.[/font] [quote]And as I said, they aren't giving the first Zelda on Wii the proper amount of dev time because essentially, the first Zelda on Wii is a port of a GCN game that is not built around Wii at all...and what makes it Wii-related at all has very recently been added circa E3 2006. So really, considering the bizarre process we've been seeing regarding release dates, system debuts, game changes and all? [/quote] [font=arial]I don't really know what to say here, except that yes, TP on Wii is a port. It's a damn good port for what it is, too. But at the end of the day, it's a port. This is not a point I've ever debated. If you want a Zelda that is built around Wii from the ground up, you'll have to wait. You would have had to wait regardless - so that's just the way it is. *shrug*[/font] [quote]They're not giving Zelda on Wii anywhere near enough time here. The motion sensor features in WiiTP are nowhere near as developed as WiiTP, the "flagship" Wii Zelda title apparently, need to be. The only reason, I see, that people are being so forgiving is that they're happy to get table scraps, essentially. I've consistently heard "We're lucky to get this" in the apparent defenses of Nintendo. And I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. [/quote] [font=arial]But as I keep pointing out, you would have to wait for an entirely new Zelda anyway. So whether or not WiiTP arrives is neither here nor there. The fact that it's coming out on Wii [i]at all[/i] and with [i]any[/i] changes is better than nothing. It would only be a bad thing if the changes and additions sucked. They don't. So it doesn't matter. lol [/font] [quote]If I sound overly cynical, thank you. I'd rather sound overly cynical than being content with what amounts to half of a Wii game.[/quote] [font=arial]I just think you're making a major issue out of nothing, really. If you don't want "half a Wii game", then simply don't buy it. Either way, as I said, this has nothing to do with getting a Zelda game built for Wii from the ground up - that game is still coming and it would be coming later regardless of TP and its changes. [/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 [color=#4B0082]James made a lot of the same points I was going to, so there's not a ton left for me to say. But there are a few things here I'd like to respond to.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Because it's a port. It's not a Zelda game designed for the Wii from the ground-up. I don't know why you're having such a hard time grasping this, Desi.[/quote][color=#4B0082]So what if it's a port? Why does that matter at all? The fact is, Wii-TP will have some Wii controller functionality, and if that makes the game more fun than the GCN version then Wii-TP is worth buying instead of GCN-TP. Maybe not enough to warrent buying a Wii if you weren't going to get one anyway, but comparing directly between GCN-TP and Wii-TP, Wii-TP is going to come out on top for people who want the motion sensor and pointer functionality. The problem here is that you're trying to compare Wii-TP to your idealistic notions of what the first real Wii Zelda will be like even though we have absolutely [i]no[/i] information about the game. Compared to that, of course Wii-TP is going to fall short. But doing so is moot because we don't know what the Wii Zelda game will be like. It could end up playing worse than Wii-TP for all we know, and in that case the new Zelda would be nothing to get excited about while Wii-TP would be the best there is.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']I never once implied that WiiTP is going to suck because it's a port.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Yes, you really did. You said that Wii-TP is, "nothing to get excited about," and, "a boring port-job." That implies the port will be mediocre at best. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what you said. Incidentally, unless the control changes actually make the game [i]worse[/i] than GCN-TP, people have as much or more reason to be excited about Wii-TP as they are about GCN-TP. In other words, unless the changes are detrimental to the game, excitement can only go up.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']If I buy TP, I'm buying it for GCN, because apparently I can tell the difference between bait and a real treat. lol[/quote][color=#4B0082]Wii-TP may very well be bait, to try and move more systems, but that's no reason to pass over the game. I want to play TP with the Wii controller functionality, and I'm going to get a Wii anyway, so why shouldn't I buy Wii-TP? Both GCN-TP and Wii-TP are "real treats." You said it yourself, Wii-TP is a port of GCN-TP; at their core, they're the same game, so why would one be a treat and not the other? Unless you honestly believe Wii-TP's control scheme is going to be detrimental to the game, you're doing nothing here but bashing Wii-TP to try and justify your choice of the GCN version.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Pardon me, Des, but how in the hell do you make that kind of leap? lol[/quote][color=#4B0082]I can make that comparison because the situations are actually very similar; you'd see that if you'd look at the point I'm making rather than a bunch of extraneous details that have little or nothing to do with the actual point. You're saying Wii-TP is boring because it doesn't have enough Wii controller functionality; to quote yourself, "because it'll still be a current-gen Zelda game." Yet SSBB is going to be exactly the same way. It's not using the Wii controller at all, meaning there's most likely nothing in SSBB that couldn't be done on the GCN, short of graphical quality. (And before you try to use that, remember that you said, "I don't give two shats about visual improvements.") By your standards, then, wouldn't you consider SSBB a current-gen game and therefore boring? Your argument applies equally to both games. Now, before you repeat yourself, here's why your example of the current SSBM control scheme already being near perfect has no bearing on the argument:[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf]Regarding Smash Bros Brawl on the other hand? If they didn't use the GCN controllers [b]I'd be annoyed[/b], because [b]as far as I'm concerned[/b], SSBM had a damn near perfect control scheme using the GCN controllers. The game itself simply [b]would not benefit[/b'] from the Wiimote like Wii Zelda would.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Take notice of the parts I've bolded. The first two are undeniably personal opinions, yet you then try to use those as a base for a statement of fact. That doesn't work. So, [i]in your opinion[/i] the game would not benefit from use of the remote, therefore [i]you think[/i] the current control scheme is perfect. You cannot speak for others, however; I'm sure there's at least one person out there who would like to use the remote to play SSBB. Seeing as there is no right answer to a question of personal preference such as this, you cannot use your conclusion--that the current control scheme is perfect--as the basis for your argument.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf]In short, I criticize WiiTP because [u]I think[/u'] it's an example of the Wiimote being unnecessarily utilized.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Fixed.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Simply transferring control of the targeting reticle from a joystick to the Wiimote is not a fundamental change to play control.[/quote][color=#4B0082]So there's no real difference between using a lightgun and an analog stick in a game like Time Crisis? That's absurd and you know it.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 [QUOTE=James]Absolutely, but not for the reasons you listed. What you're talking about is the overall concept - you're either glossing over or are unaware of the actual changes that took place in the game. The entire game was redesigned from the ground up. The new developer actually scrapped most of what had already been built - even the game engine was significantly tweaked. This is basically common knowledge in the industry and I thought it was common knowledge among most gamers as well, even those who barely followed the progress of Prey. Apparently that is not the case, lol.[/quote] Yes, they re-did it using the Doom 3 engine. They expanded the gameplay. Added loads of new content. It's a major, dramatic change. But it's the usual for the industry. It's happened before. We expect it...especially when it's a 3D Realms game from the mid 90s that was completely outdated by five or six years by the time Human Head was brought on board. But is it the "same type" of change we see in WiiTP? I'm not talking about the amount of re-programming required. I'm talking about what we regularly see in the industry versus what we're seeing in these very gimmicky Wii ports that all sound very knee-jerk when we really think about them. [quote]Right. So why are you debating this point when there is nothing to debate? We are dealing in semantics. What I am telling you is that games frequently undergo major revisions even within the final few months of development. This may or may not include graphics (texturing, modelling, animation), A.I. (changes to routines), additions of major elements (levels, modes, etc), control changes (mapping changes, modifications to allow the use of peripherals, etc) and so on. You are missing the broader point though. The changes we are seeing in Twilight Princess are unique to that game - but the visual changes in one game to the next are always unique to the game itself. The actual point is that major changes do occur in this period - controller changes included. At the end of the day, we can split hairs as much as we like...but the overall point is essentially the same here. On a development level none of this is particularly unusual. Right, but again, you are either missing the point or deliberately splitting hairs. The changes that each game goes through are always going to be different. Radically changing Super Mario Sunshine's levels is definitely different from changing Prey's levels - the style of each game is different and the demands for specific gameplay types are different. What's important is that each for each of these games, it was necessary to make major changes during the development cycle - even toward the end of that cycle. That is specifically what we are talking about. Going into the detail of "SMS is different from Prey is different from TP" is actually a seperate issue and it's also an obvious observation - every game is different and of course, the demands on developers are always different each time. You're implying that the addition of "a few new levels" is somehow not on the same level[/quote] The changes in other games were parts of the regular development cycle, or due to changing developers. The changes in WiiTP, however, were implemented so Nintendo could have a Zelda launch title for their new system. That is not part of the normal development cycle and the reasons for the change are not the normal reasons for the change. Sure, we could say that Nintendo was planning for it from the beginning, right? And stringing everyone along? That they planned to include Wiimote sword control from the very beginning, right? That they were just toying with the public with repeated denials regarding the rumors going around about the fate of TP on GCN? There are two explanations here. Nintendo either made a very quick decision earlier this year or they have been f-cking with everyone for almost two years now. Personally, I'd respect them more for the very quick decision. And this is coming from a guy who loves f-cking with people's perceptions. But either way, Nintendo made a lousy decision in terms of development. It was either a last-minute decision after seeing the reactions and realizing they didn't have a very strong launch line-up, or they were just messing with everyone's heads in the hopes that it would be a positive response when they finally dropped the big news. [quote]If you want to discuss games that have had their controls modified during development to run specifically on Wii, there are plenty examples of that. So Twilight Princess is not unique in that specific instance.[/quote] About 90% of the launch titles. And I'm just as displeased about them as I am with WiiTP. Very little in the launch titles aren't gimmicky. It's a DS launch line-up, hence my comments earlier. [quote]the point is that most games go through fundamental changes late in the development cycle. These changes are always different, but they regularly happen.[/quote] So "Change is change"? [quote]You're again picking up on the wrong point here. My article itself was speculative and it had nothing to do with what the actual game included. My point wasn't about the content of the article, it was about the actual demo footage - sorry if I didn't make that clear enough. The game's design changed massively from that first demonstration. It also changed again after E3 (where a playable build was shown). Again, this is normal.[/quote] Of course the game was going to change. Was there ever any other expectation from a demo trailer shown in 2001, shortly after the GCN had just been brought onto the market? [quote]This is not what's meant by "upending the tea table". The phrase relates to what I have been discussing here - specifically, the idea that even mid-way through a single game's development, it is sometimes necessary to actually start all over again...or at least, to change the game's direction or make significant modifications to fundamental aspects of a game.[/quote] And so you feel that "upending the tea table" applies to WiiTP? That the changes dramatically change the game? That a sword control system that sometimes doesn't even differentiate between horizontal and vertical waves of the Wiimote is upending the tea table? That those changes are significantly altering or modifying fundamental aspects of a game when there's really nothing new being introduced? Aiming the bow with the Wiimote? Swinging the Wiimote to attack with the sword? [quote]You can't really say that it was a good business decision and then say it was misguided; it was a clever and a good decision.[/quote] I can definitely call it a good business decision and then say it was misguided, because that's exactly what it was. From a business perspective, it was genius. They're forcing the customer to choose between two products. The first (and earlier product) will end up costing the customer somewhere around 300+ dollars. Or they wait a month and end up buying the GCN version at around 50 dollars. But from a consumer standpoint? That was a lousy move. It was totally misguided because it does send that mixed message of "We care about you but we care about this more" and it largely contradicts Nintendo's "we care about accessibility" mantra. And forking the customer between two pretty undesirable options from the consumer's point of view is not a good idea, because it may be good for business in the short-term, but longer-term, it's not good business. It alienates customers. It sure as hell alienated me, and I really don't give a shat enough to get my panties in a twist here. I may not even get TP on GCN. What I'm more annoyed with and pissed about here is how Nintendo has handled all of this, because they could have done much, much better. In fact, I don't see why GCN TP was delayed at all anyway. The consumer still would have had to make a choice: plunk down 300+ for the Wii or buy the GCN TP for 50+. There was no solid reason to delay GCN TP. And honestly, Nintendo could have easily avoided the shitstorm from parts of the playerbase had they done what was perfectly reasonable: kept both games on the same release date. [quote]Okay, your first paragraph basically answers your own question. I'm not going to get into how it should be to make it 100% realistic...that is, again, a different discussion. What I will do is reiterate my original point, which you have further confirmed in your first paragraph; using the bow and arrow with the Wii remote feels quite different than simply moving an analog stick - the accuracy and the feel of the motion is a radically different experience. That's my point. Yes, it is, because with the stick you only have to move your thumb. With the remote you have to draw the bow, hold it, then release it. You also have to aim with your whole arm and hand, not just your thumb.[/quote] If it's still a targeting reticle it's not a fundamental change. If all that's required to fire the arrows any distance is the minimal draw movement we saw in the gameplay demonstration, that's not a fundamental change. It's simply the best that WiiTP can do at this point. I don't see fundamental changes until the game itself has been changed. Until we're no longer playing a traditional Zelda game. [quote]Skepticism? What have you been reading? lol. We must not be reading the same impressions. I can produce quotes if you really want me to, but I don't think it's really something that's necessary.[/quote] "I've been reading with total skepticism"=I'm reading with total skepticism. "Hands-on previews with total skepticism"=skeptical hands-on previews. [quote]If you want a Zelda that is built around Wii from the ground up, you'll have to wait. You would have had to wait regardless - so that's just the way it is. *shrug*[/quote] I was always planning on waiting. WiiTP was going to be something to pass the time until I realized there's zero there to interest me. GCN TP ftw. [quote]The fact that it's coming out on Wii at all and with any changes is better than nothing.[/quote] I think that's terrible rationale. "We've got this at least so all is well." It's a rationale that borders on defeatist optimism. It's a concession for something that really should have been better for being the first Zelda game on Wii. [quote]I just think you're making a major issue out of nothing, really. If you don't want "half a Wii game", then simply don't buy it.[/QUOTE] Honestly? I would have never written about my views on the matter as much as I did. I was content to leave it at a single sentence from a few days ago. [QUOTE=Desbreko]James made a lot of the same points I was going to, so there's not a ton left for me to say. But there are a few things here I'd like to respond to. [quote]So what if it's a port? Why does that matter at all?[/quote] Because I'd prefer totally original launch titles or at least titles that utilize the Wiimote in more than three or four ways. And anyway, as it stands, 90% of the launch list is comprised of bizarre port-jobs, Desi. Why do you think I'm waiting for Metroid? [quote]Maybe not enough to warrant buying a Wii if you weren't going to get one anyway, but comparing directly between GCN-TP and Wii-TP, Wii-TP is going to come out on top for people who want the motion sensor and pointer functionality.[/quote] That's the thing, Des. I [i]was[/i] going to get a Wii at launch. You saw how much I was looking at spending. It was a hair under 450. And included in that list was WiiTP. Of course I want the motion sensor and pointer functionality. But if I'm going to be dropping almost 500 dollars on Wii, I want that motion sensor and pointer functionality to do more than three or four things. And so far, only three or four things are precisely what 90% of the launch titles are offering, which, personal opinion aside, is entirely not worth 400-500 dollars. [quote]The problem here is that you're trying to compare Wii-TP to your idealistic notions of what the first real Wii Zelda will be like even though we have absolutely no information about the game.[/quote] If they're just my "idealistic notions", answer me this. Would you disagree with what I see the first real Wii Zelda implementing? Close to 1:1 swordplay? Bow-hunting where we're no longer using targeting reticles and where we're drawing the string back because the velocity and distance of the arrows will be based on proper bow handling? Are you saying you wouldn't love to see that? You, of all people? Are you saying that whipping the Wiimote around for the boomerang isn't something you'd much prefer over selecting targets a la traditional Zeldas? Or what about activating Din's Fire (or any other magic spell) by using the Wiimote like a scepter and swirling it around in different patterns for different spells? Before you decide to call me so idealistic, take a look at what I see in the first true Wii Zelda and ask yourself if you'd be so opposed to any of it. [quote]Yes, you really did. You said that Wii-TP is, "nothing to get excited about," and, "a boring port-job." That implies the port will be mediocre at best. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what you said.[/quote] Yes, because "nothing to get excited about" means exactly that: nothing to get excited about. And "a boring port-job" means exactly that: it's a boring port-job. Where did I even imply the game would be mediocre? [quote]Incidentally, unless the control changes actually make the game worse than GCN-TP, people have as much or more reason to be excited about Wii-TP as they are about GCN-TP. In other words, unless the changes are detrimental to the game, excitement can only go up.[/quote] I don't have any doubts the controls will control well, Desi. But for a flagship Zelda title on a new console, they're boring as hell...because they're just the basics. [quote]Wii-TP may very well be bait, to try and move more systems, but that's no reason to pass over the game.[/quote] To paraphrase an old high school friend who'd chastised himself for buying an Xbox solely for Deathrow, WiiTP would be a 300 dollar game then. [quote]I want to play TP with the Wii controller functionality, and I'm going to get a Wii anyway, so why shouldn't I buy Wii-TP?[/quote] What other games would you have been buying? Were you going to get the system first, regardless of the games? There it sounds like you'd decided to purchase the system before deciding on any Wii games. And like I said (and like you've known), I was originally totally sold on Wii and WiiTP, and I'd even figured on picking up Marvel Ultimate Alliance, including an extra Wiimote/nunchuck and a memory stick. But then I started wondering why I'd really want Marvel UA, especially without four controllers. So out that went. Then WiiTP would have become that 300-dollar game. [quote]you're doing nothing here but bashing Wii-TP to try and justify your choice of the GCN version.[/quote] You'd be right if I'd actually made a choice to buy the GCN version. Right now I'm not particularly interested in either version. In fact, I cancelled my GCN TP pre-order when it was delayed the first time. I've not since looked into pre-ordering it again. Now let's talk Smash Brothers since you apparently believe there's some massive contradiction here. Don't be so sure of yourself here, because you don't have me where you think you have me. Let's break this down in order of importance. [quote]Take notice of the parts I've bolded. The first two are undeniably personal opinions, yet you then try to use those as a base for a statement of fact. That doesn't work.[/quote] I was talking about how close to perfect SSBM's controls are. They're precise as hell. They hold up beautifully in casual [i][b]and[/b][/i] competitive play (and still hold up today, almost five years after release). Or would you disagree with that? It seems to me that if you agree that the SSBM controls are generally close to perfect and extremely precise, you can't really get on me for something you'd agree with in the first place, which makes your above excerpt just a tad misguided here. [quote]I can make that comparison because the situations are actually very similar; you'd see that if you'd look at the point I'm making rather than a bunch of extraneous details that have little or nothing to do with the actual point. You're saying Wii-TP is boring because it doesn't have enough Wii controller functionality; to quote yourself, "because it'll still be a current-gen Zelda game." Yet SSBB is going to be exactly the same way. It's not using the Wii controller at all, meaning there's most likely nothing in SSBB that couldn't be done on the GCN, short of graphical quality. (And before you try to use that, remember that you said, "I don't give two shats about visual improvements.") By your standards, then, wouldn't you consider SSBB a current-gen game and therefore boring? Your argument applies equally to both games.[/quote] Here's where you've got a flaw, Des: The GCN and Wiimote [i]complement[/i] each other. What one controller doesn't do well, the other does, and vice versa. The GCN controller sucks for FPS and general action-adventure due to the tiny D-pad, nubby C-stick, pressure-sensitive L and R buttons, and a Z button that could be much more responsive for heavy-duty gunfights if it weren't so mis-shapen. Wiimote, on the other hand? FPS and action-adventure [i]dream[/i]. It's a mouse in three dimensional space, dude. It can handle or has the potential to handle FPS and action-adventure a hell of a lot better than the GCN can. Why do you think I'm waiting for Metroid? Why do you think I'm waiting for the total Wii Zelda that makes total use of the Wiimote? Because FPS and action-adventure are the two strongest forte of the Wiimote. And since we're talking Smash Bros, the GCN controller is amazing for it. The pressure sensitivity of the L and R buttons, for example, features that suck in FPS, are incredibly useful in SSBM because of how the shield is implemented. You can either jam all the way down for a stronger shield, or you can lightly depress it for a larger but weaker shield. The C-stick is made for quick Smash attacks. If it had the same type of petal like the left joystick does, sliding your thumb off of the C-stick would be nowhere near as fast. The nubby quality of the C-stick usually detrimental to FPS [i]shines[/i] in SSBM. You don't need to use the D-pad in SSBM, so it being tiny is actually a good thing; it, like the C-stick's non-existent petal, never gets in the way. The only aspect of the GCN controller that needs work is the Z button, but even then, it still performs extraordinarily well. Once you get the timing down, grabbing falling items out of mid air is easy as hell, and dashing grabs quickly become second nature. So given all of that... [quote]So, in your opinion the game would not benefit from use of the remote, therefore you think the current control scheme is perfect. You cannot speak for others, however; I'm sure there's at least one person out there who would like to use the remote to play SSBB.[/quote] ...give me a control scheme on the Wiimote that could function in a fast and furious Smash Bros Brawl match with the same kind of precision and accuracy we see in SSBM on the GCN controller. [quote]So there's no real difference between using a lightgun and an analog stick in a game like Time Crisis? That's absurd and you know it.[/QUOTE] Time Crisis? lol. You do realize my years of arcade shooting were exclusively Time Crisis 1, 2, and 3? And that I've had plenty of playtime with the home versions? But if you want to try to use Time Crisis as an example...the arcade is still the only suitable place to play Time Crisis, Desi. The home versions sucked no matter if you played with the Guncon or tried to finnagle the joystick into doing what you wanted it to do. Even then, if you managed to get the hang of it, the joystick still sucked for playing the home versions of Time Crisis, because Time Crisis is a game of [i]speed[/i]. Hence why Time Crisis is the name of the game. The Guncon is the lesser of the two evils for the home versions, but it still sucks because it's so limited in what it can do. Often, the duck/cover button was somewhere on the gun itself, which created an awful and uncomfortable play experience. There's a reason why the home versions of Time Crisis were totally stripped-down to the point of being embarrassments. If you're trying to play Time Crisis with a joystick, you're out of your mind. Hell, if you're going to play Time Crisis in anywhere but an arcade, you're out of your mind. Anyway, it really has no relevance here, because we're not talking about crap joysticks in crap home versions of stellar arcade shooters. The experience changes between the home and arcade versions of Time Crisis because of the speed of the game. Had they designed the Guncon better, you might have seen better performance out of the Guncon. Plus, Time Crisis is a shooting game. It originated as a shooting game. The speed of the game is much too fast to be accurate with a joystick. This isn't the case with the Zelda series. Zelda has always been a very methodical game where enemies and puzzle targets would frequently stay in one place to let you shoot them at your leisure. The gameplay of WiiTP is no different. The ranged enemies were staying in one spot the entire time. Until they change the game [i]itself[/i], it won't matter if we're using a joystick or Wiimote, which is why changing from the joystick to a Wiimote in TP is not a fundamental change in play control. If they take a few cues from something like Time Crisis? A game that depends on speed, accuracy, and a (good) lightgun? Then we'll see those fundamental changes in play control. Until then, we're still playing traditional Zelda with traditional approaches...whether we're using the Wiimote or a joystick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 [quote]Yes, they re-did it using the Doom 3 engine. They expanded the gameplay. Added loads of new content. It's a major, dramatic change. But it's the usual for the industry. It's happened before. We expect it...especially when it's a 3D Realms game from the mid 90s that was completely outdated by five or six years by the time Human Head was brought on board. But is it the "same type" of change we see in WiiTP? I'm not talking about the amount of re-programming required. I'm talking about what we regularly see in the industry versus what we're seeing in these very gimmicky Wii ports that all sound very knee-jerk when we really think about them. [/quote] [font=arial]Well, again, we can really keep going around in circles and get nowhere. The point I am making - and have been frequently making in this thread - is that it is common for games to go through major changes through their development cycle, even toward the end of it. Whether those changes are visual, layout-based, AI-based or controller based is not particularly relevant - the point is that companies often decide to add elements or change elements right up to the deadline. Are the changes in Prey the same or similar to what was changed in Twilight Princess? No. But the two games represent "the norm" in the videogame industry, in terms of such major changes being made late in the development cycle. And as I have also pointed out, there are other games (on Wii and other platforms) that go through these specific types of control changes toward the end when a port is being done. There is nothing unusual about that. Nintendo has gone through several stages of development on the controls alone, so as to ensure that the Wii version feels as natural as possible within the context of TP's gameplay. If they had rode rough-shot over the game and added something pointless or not worthwhile, they would not have taken that kind of care. But this should not be unexpected of Nintendo. It's what they do. Twilight Princess is no different.[/font] [quote]The changes in other games were parts of the regular development cycle, or due to changing developers. The changes in WiiTP, however, were implemented so Nintendo could have a Zelda launch title for their new system. That is not part of the normal development cycle and the reasons for the change are not the normal reasons for the change. Sure, we could say that Nintendo was planning for it from the beginning, right? And stringing everyone along? That they planned to include Wiimote sword control from the very beginning, right? That they were just toying with the public with repeated denials regarding the rumors going around about the fate of TP on GCN?[/quote] [font=arial]I see what you are saying and in a sense you are right. This is a port and this is not something Nintendo would have done with the original release (obviously). But we keep getting away from the issue at hand. The key point I'm trying to make is that the changes to TP on Wii are not only substantial (in that they change the feel of the game and by default the way it plays), but that they are carefully-considered changes that are designed to effectively gel with the game's existing gameplay - in other words, they aren't as "tacked on" as is being made out.[/font] [quote]There are two explanations here. Nintendo either made a very quick decision earlier this year or they have been f-cking with everyone for almost two years now. Personally, I'd respect them more for the very quick decision. And this is coming from a guy who loves f-cking with people's perceptions. But either way, Nintendo made a lousy decision in terms of development. It was either a last-minute decision after seeing the reactions and realizing they didn't have a very strong launch line-up, or they were just messing with everyone's heads in the hopes that it would be a positive response when they finally dropped the big news. [/quote] [font=arial]Nintendo made the decision late last year I believe - a few months prior to E3. But the reason you've suggested isn't really right, I don't think. I mean...you're kind of presuming that the only way they could have come up with this decision is by saying "oh my god, our launch line up is so bad that we really need to rush over a Zelda port!!!!" That's the only option? lol In truth, I think Nintendo saw the opportunity to provide TP on Wii and went with it. They had plenty of time to get the game right for Wii - almost a year. That's not rushed, nor is it some kind of impulse decision. It's fine for you not to like the idea behind TP or whatever, but there are a lot of assumptions going on. [/font] [quote]About 90% of the launch titles. And I'm just as displeased about them as I am with WiiTP. Very little in the launch titles aren't gimmicky. It's a DS launch line-up, hence my comments earlier. [/quote] [font=arial]I don't really agree, but nothing will convince you until you play the games. So that's my only advice. I think you will change your mind if you play several launch games on the system though.[/font] [quote]So "Change is change"?[/quote] [font=arial]Basically, yep. WiiTP is actually getting much better treatment than most other games get (as far as ports go). In terms of the quality of the port, there's absolutely no reason to be worried. But as I keep saying, that's different from not liking the idea of a port altogether. That latter point is something I understand but don't agree with, so there isn't a whole lot more to be said about that until the game actually comes out.[/font] [quote]Of course the game was going to change. Was there ever any other expectation from a demo trailer shown in 2001, shortly after the GCN had just been brought onto the market?[/quote] [font=arial]Bingo. Of course the game was going to change...of course most games change significantly. That's it, you got it. :catgirl: [/font] [quote]And so you feel that "upending the tea table" applies to WiiTP? That the changes dramatically change the game? That a sword control system that sometimes doesn't even differentiate between horizontal and vertical waves of the Wiimote is upending the tea table? That those changes are significantly altering or modifying fundamental aspects of a game when there's really nothing new being introduced? Aiming the bow with the Wiimote? Swinging the Wiimote to attack with the sword?[/quote] [font=arial]First of all, the tea table was upended long before any announcement about Wii. That's actually a seperate issue - I was just clarifying what the term meant. lol Actually, TP changed dramatically early in its development. Within the first few months, Miyamoto basically had everything changed and re-examined. But as I said, that isn't really related to what's happening with Wii. In terms of the latter part of your comment...I guarantee, the control changes significantly alter the experience. Aiming your bow with your arm and hand is very different from using only your thumb - that is an incredibly obvious observation and I'm surprised it's not making sense to you. Even playing a game with the analog stick is quite different from using a D-Pad (especially in a 3D game). I don't know why that aspect is even debatable. lol[/font] [quote]But from a consumer standpoint? That was a lousy move. It was totally misguided because it does send that mixed message of "We care about you but we care about this more" and it largely contradicts Nintendo's "we care about accessibility" mantra. And forking the customer between two pretty undesirable options from the consumer's point of view is not a good idea, because it may be good for business in the short-term, but longer-term, it's not good business. It alienates customers. [/quote] [font=arial]I don't think most consumers will know the difference - only the most hardcore gamers even know about the GCN version delay. So in that respect, I don't think most people will know or care. For the hardcore gamers...well, WiiTP is a bonus if you own a Wii. Otherwise you'd have to play the GCN version on Wii and use a GCN controller (this is not a bad thing, but it's not as exciting as being able to use your new controller with the game). That's how I see it, anyway. It's good business, but it's also a good deal for Wii owners (especially those who don't own a GameCube or who don't play their GCN anymore). We just disagree. That's about it really.[/font] [quote]If it's still a targeting reticle it's not a fundamental change. If all that's required to fire the arrows any distance is the minimal draw movement we saw in the gameplay demonstration, that's not a fundamental change. [/quote] [font=arial]What? If it's still a targeting reticule? That has nothing to do with it. That's like saying "if it still has a health bar, it's not a fundamental change". That only relates to visual presentation...it has absolutely zero to do with how the game feels or plays. lol Forget about visuals for a second and imagine the feel of using that bow and arrow with the remote versus simply moving your thumb. Thumb movement versus entire arm and hand movement...big difference.[/font] [quote] I don't see fundamental changes until the game itself has been changed. Until we're no longer playing a traditional Zelda game.[/quote] [font=arial]The controls are still fundamentally changed, no matter how much you'd like to split hairs over the issue. lol Is the game itself changed? It's changed in the sense that it feels and plays quite differently, yes. If you don't regard that as a "fundamental change", fine. But that's just a different interpretation more than anything else.[/font] [quote]I was always planning on waiting. WiiTP was going to be something to pass the time until I realized there's zero there to interest me. GCN TP ftw.[/quote] [font=arial]That's totally fine, I'm not trying to convince you to like it. I'm just correcting a few misinterpretations about it, that's all.[/font] [quote]I think that's terrible rationale. "We've got this at least so all is well." It's a rationale that borders on defeatist optimism. It's a concession for something that really should have been better for being the first Zelda game on Wii. [/quote] [font=arial]I don't view it as an "at least". I view it as getting more than we originally thought. I wanted the GCN game a lot. Now I know I'm getting the same game with a totally enhanced control scheme and a better viewing option. I'm getting a Wii anyway, so I want to buy the Wii version so I can use the new controller. It's not defeatist in the slightest - I am just acknowledging that I'm getting [i]extra[/i]. I just don't view that as a negative thing.[/font] [quote]Honestly? I would have never written about my views on the matter as much as I did. I was content to leave it at a single sentence from a few days ago. [/quote] [font=arial]You're joking, yeah? You don't know the meaning of "single sentence", Alex. lol Funny stuff. :catgirl: [/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 [quote name='James]I see what you are saying and in a sense you are right.[...']But we keep getting away from the issue at hand.[/quote] The issue at hand is that you keep trying to say that "Change is change" but such a phrase is empty and meaningless here. [i]Of course[/i] games change throughout their development. I never argued otherwise. What I've been saying is that the changes you've been mentioning are [i]typical[/i] for dev cycles. The very fast changes and decisions we've seen in the past nine months are [i]not typical[/i] for dev cycles. I called the WiiTP changes unusual, because they're the red-headed stepchild when it comes to dev time. [quote]Basically, yep. WiiTP is actually getting much better treatment than most other games get (as far as ports go). Bingo. Of course the game was going to change...of course most games change significantly. That's it, you got it. :catgirl: [/quote] Your responses here are just totally ignoring why I said what I said. I brought up "change is change" because you've been trying to lump in every development change with each other under the singular flawed umbrella concept of "change happens." You've since largely disregarded the use of exploring why certain changes happen and what they mean. You've been a stickler for making distinctions in the three or four years that I've known you, James. Dozens of your posts in the past have hyperfocused on making [i]minute distinctions[/i], especially when it comes to games. So why should this be any different? You know perfectly well that Nintendo didn't plan ahead at all for WiiTP. These changes were the Wii equivalent of a shotgun wedding. And I find this quote of yours from a while back quite interesting: [quote name='James from August of 2005][font=franklin gothic medium']If Nintendo were to upscale TP to Revolution, it would still conceivably end up on shelves well after the console's launch - not only because it isn't yet finished, but because Nintendo would have to go through and redesign most of the graphics for the more powerful Revolution system.[/font][/quote] But even in light of that, I'll still humor your O'Reilly-esque point distraction. You say that WiiTP is getting much better treatment than most of the other ports? The swordplay in WiiTP barely qualifies as swordplay (vertical swipes with the Wiimote translating to horizontal slashes is PATHETIC no matter how you try to spin it in Nintendo's favor). Marvel UA is getting a hell of a lot better treatment. Even Madden 07 is getting better treatment. Far Cry Vengeance's entire control scheme is being re-built to utilize the Wiimote as much as possible. Splinter Cell: Double Agent is seeing almost a dozen control changes, some of which are utilizing pressure sensitivity based on the Wiimote. If anything, WiiTP is getting mediocre treatment at best because the game only had nine months to be converted to Wii, whereas the other ports were at least being designed with Wii in mind from the start. Especially Marvel UA going to a specialty developer. [quote]Nintendo made the decision late last year I believe - a few months prior to E3.[/quote] Yes. [i]Six to nine months ago[/i] at the [b]tail end[/b] of a [u]multiple year[/u] development cycle after the [i]original[/i] target version had been delayed [b]three times[/b] in the span of [b]one year[/b]. [quote]But the reason you've suggested isn't really right, I don't think. I mean...you're kind of presuming that the only way they could have come up with this decision is by saying "oh my god, our launch line up is so bad that we really need to rush over a Zelda port!!!!"[/quote] There are two explanations, James, one of which you completely ignored either intentionally or unintentionally, as evidenced by the quote below: [quote]That's the only option? lol[/quote] I offered two options, James. That was made fairly clear by my use of "either" and "or". One explanation was a quick decision. The other was jerking players around for almost two years and hoping that most would be so enthralled by the tiny little carrot being dangled in front of their faces that they'd just completely ignore just how stupid and bone-headed the decision was. And so far, I'm thinking their plan worked perfectly. [quote]I don't really agree, but nothing will convince you until you play the games.[/quote] James, look at the launch list. You've got less than six original properties on there that are being designed specifically for the Wii from the ground-up (and even some of those are totally gimmicky, just like the DS launch line-up). [i]Everything[/i] [i]else[/i] is a port with very gimmicky Wiimote features. [quote][u][b]First of all, the tea table was upended long before any announcement about Wii[/b][/u]. That's actually a seperate issue - I was just clarifying what the term meant. lol Actually, TP changed dramatically early in its development. Within the first few months, Miyamoto basically had everything changed and re-examined. [b][u]But as I said, that isn't really related to what's happening with Wii[/u][/b].[/quote] So why even bring it up in the first place? You just explained how it was completely irrelevant when it comes to Wii. [quote]In terms of the latter part of your comment...I guarantee, the control changes significantly alter the experience. Aiming your bow with your arm and hand is very different from using only your thumb - that is an incredibly obvious observation and I'm surprised it's not making sense to you. Even playing a game with the analog stick is quite different from using a D-Pad (especially in a 3D game). I don't know why that aspect is even debatable. lol What? If it's still a targeting reticule? That has nothing to do with it. That's like saying "if it still has a health bar, it's not a fundamental change". That only relates to visual presentation...it has absolutely zero to do with how the game feels or plays. lol Forget about visuals for a second and imagine the feel of using that bow and arrow with the remote versus simply moving your thumb. Thumb movement versus entire arm and hand movement...big difference. The controls are still fundamentally changed, no matter how much you'd like to split hairs over the issue. lol Is the game itself changed? It's changed in the sense that it feels and plays quite differently, yes. If you don't regard that as a "fundamental change", fine. But that's just a different interpretation more than anything else.[/quote] No, you see, there's no fundamental change to play control when the game itself still performs like the typical traditional Zelda game: methodical and slow, with stationary ranged enemies, near-non-existent urgency to act in non-boss battles, enemy AI that is still plagued by stupid patterns, boss battles that are still plagued by stupid patterns...when all of that is still present, it does not matter whether you're using a joystick or a Wiimote. You can still take all the time you want and not have to worry about anything. The play control [i]does not[/i] change because you're not playing the game any differently, because the [i]game itself[/i] does not require you to play any differently. Desbreko mentioned Time Crisis. It's a [i]perfect example[/i] of what I'm talking about. That game is designed around a lightgun. It's a [i]speed-shooter[/i]. Try playing it with a joystick and you're royally f-cked. (Des, I edited my previous post with the actual reply, by the way) Now TP was designed around a joystick. It's a traditional Zelda game. It's a slower-paced, very methodical adventure game. Your approach to the game itself, to advancing through the game, and playing the game is no different whether you use a joystick or the Wiimote, because the game itself [i]has not evolved[/i]. It's similar to Halo when it was ported to the PC. On console, Halo and Halo 2 are amazing FPS, and probably the best-playing, best-handling FPS on Xbox. Try their PC versions, though, with a mouse, and you see major flaws in their design, the most glaring being that they're simple, simple games especially when it comes to AI and gameplay approaches. Halo did not evolve when it went to the mouse, and that was glaringly obvious to experienced FPS players. Same thing with WiiTP. It's the same game as the GCN version, with the same slowed pace that Halo and previous Zelda games (note: all games built around joysticks) have depended upon. And thus, until they revamp the [i]entire[/i] Zelda franchise, and rip all of that methodical pacing right out, you're never going to see actual fundamental changes of play control, because the traditional Zelda game itself will never actually require the Wiimote. For game(s) that [i]are[/i] introducing fundamental changes to play control, we've got Red Steel and Metroid Corruption. Those games are totally unlike anything we've ever seen before and their fundamental designs require the Wiimote to proceed. Try playing them with anything less and you're dead. And that's why they're the closest things the Wii's got to killer apps right now, if not the only killer apps on Wii so far. [quote]I don't think most consumers will know the difference - only the most hardcore gamers even know about the GCN version delay. So in that respect, I don't think most people will know or care.[/quote] So let me get this straight. It's basically the casual gamers/public who aren't going to know about the GCN version delay? If the casual people don't know or care about the delay, presumably they've already been sold on Wii and WiiTP, right? So then presumably they'd have been following that news, and rarely if at all has Nintendo released news about TP that didn't include information about both versions. I'd see that as a strong likelihood they at least knew something. But here's another problem with what you said. The only way a casual person won't care about GCN TP is if they're already sold on WiiTP. But 250 for the system, plus 50-60 for the game, plus a memory stick around 20-30, and controllers that cost 60...are not casual prices. Hell, even regular to "hardcore" gamers winced when they heard some of those pricings. You say that casual people won't care about the GCN TP delay. I think it goes even farther than that. Casuals won't even care about Wii when they see an immediate expense in the upwards of 400 dollars. So then it comes back to the "hardcore" gamers, which is the [i]complete opposite[/i] of what Nintendo has been striving to do with Wii in the first place. Instead of seeming [i]inclusive[/i] they've made a major mistake here and now seem even more [i]exclusive[/i] than they were when they only had the GCN around. Appealing to the "hardcore" gamers is not what Nintendo wanted to do with Wii. Also, WiiTP is NOT good for hardcore gamers, either, for two reasons. One, [i]there is no Wii-base installed[/i] yet, so it's impossible for anyone to have a Wii, and since everything is hitting on launch day, there's no chance for preparation. Stores aren't even taking pre-orders yet. And two, these "hardcore" gamers...the ones that know about the GCN TP delay...are the ones who have had the GCN TP pre-ordered for almost two years now. And they got [i]screwed over[/i] by the "pay attention to the birdie" launch dates trick. What's a month going to matter when it's been a little over a year of delays already? It's what that month represents that's really pissing people off; it's a broken promise, a discarded pledge. It's basically the final insult. WiiTP good for hardcore gamers? Not at all. It's horrible for hardcore gamers, especially the ones who stuck by Nintendo during all of the delays. It's the hardcore gamers that really kept Nintendo alive. They're the ones who bought RE4 when the GCN was on its last legs. They're the ones who were willing to go with Wind Waker even when it wasn't a complete Zelda game by any stretch of the imagination. It's the hardcore gamers who lined up at midnight in front of Gamestops and Best Buys when the DS Lite was hitting retail. [quote]That's how I see it, anyway. [b]It's good business[/b], but it's also a good deal for Wii owners (especially those who don't own a GameCube or who don't play their GCN anymore).[/quote] *cough* [quote name='James from August 2005][font=franklin gothic medium][b]Keeping Twilight Princess on GameCube makes a lot of sense for several reasons[/b]. First, it will help to attract the "late adopters" next year. Second, it will be an incentive for both GameCube owners [i]and[/i'] potential Revolution owners - if you own a GameCube already, you'll want to buy it. If you don't own a GameCube but you want a next generation system, you can still play it on Revolution. This way, the game has the maximum possible exposure.[/font][/quote] *cough* [quote=James from August 2005][font=franklin gothic medium][b]However, for Nintendo I think it makes more sense to keep it on GameCube[/b]. Between now and next holiday season, Nintendo could easily shift another 2-5 million units of hardware before the system "dies". Even then, during the holiday season next year, you'll find that there will be a lot of GameCube owners who still do not have a large number of the games that have been released. It comes back to the idea that most software sales occur in a system's so-called "dying years"[/font][/quote] So it was good business back then to keep TP as a GCN exclusive, and now it's good business to ignore TP GCN exclusiveness entirely? [quote]I don't view it as an "at least".[/quote] *cough* [quote name='James earlier in the thread][font=arial]You (and the rest of us) are lucky to be getting a Zelda anywhere near the console's launch[...]The fact that we're getting an enhanced version of the game at all is a pretty good thing.[/font][/quote] [quote=James earlier in the thread']The fact that it's coming out on Wii at all and with any changes is better than nothing.[/quote] Translation for both of those: "At least we're getting this." [quote]It's not defeatist in the slightest - I am just acknowledging that I'm getting extra. I just don't view that as a negative thing.[/quote] A concession is a defeatist statement. James, you're forgiving Nintendo because you got a carrot, plain and simple. What you're failing to realize is that carrot is nowhere near as healthy as it should have been. But you don't care because it's still a carrot. You're conceding to Nintendo that the carrot is good enough. But it's not good enough to anyone who's taken a step back and really thought about what's going on here with this entire Wii launch fiasco. What you're saying is totally defeatist optimism. It's a total concession. [quote]You're joking, yeah? You don't know the meaning of "single sentence", Alex. lol Funny stuff. :catgirl: [/QUOTE] [quote name='Papa Smurf earlier in the thread, before James even entered this portion of the discussion']And either way, I'll still be laughing because TP on Wii is nothing to get excited about anyway, seeing as how it's nothing but a boring port-job.[/quote] Funny stuff indeed, James, because I certainly see a...gasp! What is that? Is that...a single sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 [quote]The issue at hand is that you keep trying to say that "Change is change" but such a phrase is empty and meaningless here. Of course games change throughout their development. I never argued otherwise. What I've been saying is that the changes you've been mentioning are typical for dev cycles. The very fast changes and decisions we've seen in the past nine months are not typical for dev cycles. I called the WiiTP changes unusual, because they're the red-headed stepchild when it comes to dev time.[/quote] [font=arial]You are referring to development time, right? Let's just establish that first. You're saying that it's unusual for these types of changes to occur so late in a game's development. What I'm telling you is that this is simply incorrect. Many games go through these types of changes (and more complex ones) this late in their development cycle. If that [i]is not[/i] what you are saying, then please clarify it, because the point seems to keep changing.[/font] [quote]Your responses here are just totally ignoring why I said what I said. I brought up "change is change" because you've been trying to lump in every development change with each other under the singular flawed umbrella concept of "change happens." You've since largely disregarded the use of exploring why certain changes happen and what they mean. You've been a stickler for making distinctions in the three or four years that I've known you, James. Dozens of your posts in the past have hyperfocused on making minute distinctions, especially when it comes to games. So why should this be any different? You know perfectly well that Nintendo didn't plan ahead at all for WiiTP. These changes were the Wii equivalent of a shotgun wedding.[/quote] [font=arial]The problem is that you are hair-splitting and running around in circles here. I [i]am[/i] making distinctions, but you are ignoring them. So let me repeat: You are telling me that these changes are the equivalent of a shotgun wedding. They are not. Nintendo has had plenty of time to implement these changes - they've had almost one year. That is a [i]long[/i] time in any game's development. Therefore, nobody should be concerned that Nintendo is simply riding roughshot over the game, because that simply isn't the case.[/font] [quote]But even in light of that, I'll still humor your O'Reilly-esque point distraction. You say that WiiTP is getting much better treatment than most of the other ports? The swordplay in WiiTP barely qualifies as swordplay (vertical swipes with the Wiimote translating to horizontal slashes is PATHETIC no matter how you try to spin it in Nintendo's favor). Marvel UA is getting a hell of a lot better treatment. Even Madden 07 is getting better treatment. Far Cry Vengeance's entire control scheme is being re-built to utilize the Wiimote as much as possible. Splinter Cell: Double Agent is seeing almost a dozen control changes, some of which are utilizing pressure sensitivity based on the Wiimote. If anything, WiiTP is getting mediocre treatment at best because the game only had nine months to be converted to Wii, whereas the other ports were at least being designed with Wii in mind from the start. Especially Marvel UA going to a specialty developer. [/quote] [font=arial]Let me address my quote first. First of all, I made that comment in August of 2005 - [i]well[/i] before E3 2006 came along. Secondly, the comment must be taken in context - you yourself are pulling a classic O'Reilly by disregarding the quotation's placement in the discussion. You have to remember that when the quote was made, the Wii's technical specifications were not fully understood by anyone outside Nintendo. In fact, this was even before the controller was unveiled (that was in October 2005). So, the quote isn't entirely relevant to this discussion, because you are trying to compare apples and oranges - you're raising a red herring, which really hasn't got the same foundation as this discussion. At that point in time, the quote was assuming that the Wii was going to be significantly more powerful...it was also assuming that the game would be entirely redeveloped for Wii (rather than simply ported from GameCube). Thus, it's not a very good comparison to make. To reply to your quote...again, you can't really accuse me of "O'Reilly" tactics when you are making very awkward comparisons. You are comparing games that were "built for Wii from the ground up" with a [i]port[/i]. Again you're comparing apples and oranges. I don't care how TP compares to a game that is built for Wii from the ground up because TP [i]is not built for Wii from the ground up[/i]; it is a port. lol I am only referring to ports here. In addition, nine months is a long, long time for a port - it's longer than most ports get. Few games actually see such major changes when they make a platform switch. And those that go even further than WiiTP take similar amounts of time to develop (RE4, anyone?) And before you try to compare RE4 to TP, I will make one quick point about the development time - don't forget that Wii is essentially a GameCube, hardware-wise. The API is basically the same. This means that the porting process is significantly easier - developers do not have to worry about making any major changes to code to get a game to run on Wii, because Wii uses the same development tools as GameCube (whereas with RE4, you're going from GCN to PS2, which have remarkably different development environments). So, to do a direct port, it would probably take a month or less - this is without controller changes or additions. If you work from this basis, Nintendo still had months (well over six months) to implement additions and controller changes. Most of this time would have been dedicated to testing and analysis. As a result, nobody can say with any degree of authority that this is a rushed port, or a port that suffers from the transition. You can talk about how you don't like the canned sword attacks, but every Zelda has had these - pressing the same button to achieve different swipes is no different to simply moving the controller. I know what you'd [i]like[/i] to see, but again, that is a different issue and I'm not debating what you'd like to see...I'm simply pointing out that this isn't some kind of roughtshot port.[/font] [quote]Yes. Six to nine months ago at the tail end of a multiple year development cycle after the original target version had been delayed three times in the span of one year. [/quote] [font=arial]Right. What is your point? That the game had a multi-year development cycle and was delayed multiple times has [b]nothing[/b] to do with converting the game to Wii. lol[/font] [quote]I offered two options, James. That was made fairly clear by my use of "either" and "or". One explanation was a quick decision. The other was jerking players around for almost two years and hoping that most would be so enthralled by the tiny little carrot being dangled in front of their faces that they'd just completely ignore just how stupid and bone-headed the decision was. And so far, I'm thinking their plan worked perfectly. [/quote] [font=arial]I ignored neither of your options - I simply said that these are the only options you're providing. Both are biased and reflect your own inaccurate view of the development process.[/font] [quote]James, look at the launch list. You've got less than six original properties on there that are being designed specifically for the Wii from the ground-up (and even some of those are totally gimmicky, just like the DS launch line-up). Everything else is a port with very gimmicky Wiimote features.[/quote] [font=arial]I'm simply not going to go into an entire debate about the launch list. I'm just not going to go there at the moment - I barely have the time to keep chasing my tail here, lol. Maybe we can discuss the launch lineup in a new thread when the system is actually available. ^_^[/font] [quote]So why even bring it up in the first place? You just explained how it was completely irrelevant when it comes to Wii.[/quote] [font=arial]It wasn't my point that was irrelevant, it was the interpretation being used that wasn't relevant. I was using the tea table analogy to point out that it's normal for major changes to occur late in a development cycle and that this is completely normal. None of this implies a slack or rough approach to development.[/font] [quote]No, you see, there's no fundamental change to play control when the game itself still performs like the typical traditional Zelda game: methodical and slow, with stationary ranged enemies, near-non-existent urgency to act in non-boss battles, enemy AI that is still plagued by stupid patterns, boss battles that are still plagued by stupid patterns...when all of that is still present, it does not matter whether you're using a joystick or a Wiimote. You can still take all the time you want and not have to worry about anything. The play control does not change because you're not playing the game any differently, because the game itself does not require you to play any differently.[/quote] [font=arial]Well, again...all of this is based on what? Ultimately it's based on an assumption. What you're describing also ignores my original point. Regardless how the AI behaves or how the levels are designed, playing Zelda on Wii is going to feel completely different because of the interaction method used. Let me give you an example to make this a little clearer. Think of Super Mario 64 DS and compare it to the original Nintendo 64 version. Both games are identical in terms of structure (other than some additions for the DS version), so they are "fundamentally the same", right? No, not at all. Even if we [i]only[/i] look at the controller changes, it would have to be said that the game plays quite differently with a D-Pad. Apart from the fact that it can cramp your hands up quite a bit (heheh), the actual "feeling" was not at all similar to the Nintendo 64 version - in many cases, players had to approach situations differently, knowing that they didn't have the same nimbleness on the DS. In a broad sense, this same comparison can be made with Zelda. Of course, you are still using the analog stick to walk around...but movement and game interaction are fundamentally different on Wii - not necessarily [i]better[/i], but different. That's my point. Whether or not the enemies are different isn't really relevant here. If you find it more difficult to aim your arrow with the remote, because of the added sensitivity and physical movement, this may change the way you approach certain situations in the game - it might make you more cautious, or if you are better with this system, it might make you more confident and more willing to dive into the action. In the end, it will have an impact on the overall game experience. [/font] [quote]So let me get this straight. It's basically the casual gamers/public who aren't going to know about the GCN version delay? If the casual people don't know or care about the delay, presumably they've already been sold on Wii and WiiTP, right? So then presumably they'd have been following that news, and rarely if at all has Nintendo released news about TP that didn't include information about both versions. I'd see that as a strong likelihood they at least knew something.[/quote] [font=arial]No...not at all. I'm not saying that casual gamers don't know about the GCN version being delayed - I'm saying that many simply won't care. Many casual gamers don't even play Zelda, for starters. lol Also, there are plenty of people who simply don't own a GameCube. Wii may be some people's first Nintendo console. Many casual gamers grew up with Xbox or PlayStation - don't forget about these people, who are now in the majority. For them - especially those who do not follow gaming news (those who follow gaming news are mostly early-adopters), it's just not going to be an issue. You also have to remember that many casual gamers simply aren't as informed as you or I. Plenty of people are going to simply say "Yeah, I'd rather play this game on a new system than an old one". Sure, it's not something you or I would say, but plenty will say it, I assure you.[/font] [quote]But here's another problem with what you said. The only way a casual person won't care about GCN TP is if they're already sold on WiiTP.[/quote] [font=arial]No, that first point disqualifies what comes after it. You are [i]assuming[/i] that all casual gamers are Zelda players. Most are not. Most casual gamers (and non-gamers) don't even own a GameCube - and they are certainly not going to buy one just for Zelda. These people are more likely to be reached by Wii, due both to its different control system as well as its software library...which is not only far broader than any other platform launch for this generation, but which also contains software that is non-gamer-friendly.[/font] [quote]But 250 for the system, plus 50-60 for the game, plus a memory stick around 20-30, and controllers that cost 60...are not casual prices. Hell, even regular to "hardcore" gamers winced when they heard some of those pricings. You say that casual people won't care about the GCN TP delay. I think it goes even farther than that. Casuals won't even care about Wii when they see an immediate expense in the upwards of 400 dollars. [/quote] [font=arial]Well...let's put it in perspective. $250 for the system, $50 for the game, controller is included and no memory stick is required (game saves can be stored on the system's Flash ROM). So it's certainly not an expensive proposition - this is particularly true if you compare it to everything else that is available on the market in the next generation (Xbox 360 and PS3, for example). I certainly don't think that [i]non-gamers[/i] are really willing to spend a fortune on this type of entertainment...but Wii is more likely to appeal to these people than any other system, GameCube included.[/font] [quote]So then it comes back to the "hardcore" gamers, which is the complete opposite of what Nintendo has been striving to do with Wii in the first place. Instead of seeming inclusive they've made a major mistake here and now seem even more exclusive than they were when they only had the GCN around. Appealing to the "hardcore" gamers is not what Nintendo wanted to do with Wii.[/quote] [font=arial]I don't quite know how you figure that Nintendo isn't intending to appeal to hardcore gamers with Wii. Let's see...entire back catalogue of Nintendo, Sega and Turbografix software...backwards compatibility with GameCube...Zelda, Mario, Excite Truck, Resident Evil, Metroid... Nintendo is appealing to all gamers with Wii, there's just no question about that. The only question is whether or not the system is going to appeal to [i]non-gamers[/i]. I don't know if it will, but I guarantee, it has a better chance than any other platform available today (with the exception of DS, which has already proven itself there).[/font] [quote]One, there is no Wii-base installed yet, so it's impossible for anyone to have a Wii, and since everything is hitting on launch day, there's no chance for preparation. Stores aren't even taking pre-orders yet. [/quote] [font=arial]No chance for preparation? How does that have anything to do with hardcore gamers? Hardcore gamers are already pre-ordering the thing. It's no different to any other launch in that sense.[/font] [quote]And two, these "hardcore" gamers...the ones that know about the GCN TP delay...are the ones who have had the GCN TP pre-ordered for almost two years now. And they got screwed over by the "pay attention to the birdie" launch dates trick. What's a month going to matter when it's been a little over a year of delays already? It's what that month represents that's really pissing people off; it's a broken promise, a discarded pledge. It's basically the final insult.[/quote] [font=arial]If these people are "hardcore gamers" and they've had the game pre-ordered for that long, then surely they would know that a month-long delay is absolutely peanuts for a Nintendo game. Start thinking about every Nintendo game that has seen a significant delay and it will start to become clearer. I'm not saying the delay is a good thing, because it's not, especially for GameCube owners. [i]However[/i], it's not worth tearing your hair out over. It really isn't. lol[/font] [quote]WiiTP good for hardcore gamers? Not at all. It's horrible for hardcore gamers, especially the ones who stuck by Nintendo during all of the delays. It's the hardcore gamers that really kept Nintendo alive. They're the ones who bought RE4 when the GCN was on its last legs. They're the ones who were willing to go with Wind Waker even when it wasn't a complete Zelda game by any stretch of the imagination. It's the hardcore gamers who lined up at midnight in front of Gamestops and Best Buys when the DS Lite was hitting retail.[/quote] [font=arial]The hardcore gamers will be the ones who will line up at midnight for Wii, too. The hardcore gamers are the ones who will still buy Zelda despite the delay. The hardcore gamers are the ones who will probably buy [i]both[/i] Zeldas in some cases. It's not a federal case, it's a month-long game delay. Those of us who have been playing Nintendo games for years are used to much worse. Again, I'm not condoning the delay...I don't think delaying the GCN version is the right answer for anyone. And I don't like it either. I'm simply pointing out that it's a minor issue in the scheme of things, especially in terms of Nintendo games in general.[/font] [quote]So it was good business back then to keep TP as a GCN exclusive, and now it's good business to ignore TP GCN exclusiveness entirely?[/quote] [font=arial]Again, you're pulling out a complete red herring. This is a [b]poor[/b] way to argue a case, Alex. lol Since you like bolding text, I'll bold my response. [b]I was talking about moving the game from GameCube to Wii...[i]not[/i] simply porting it and releasing it on both consoles.[/b] In addition, at the time that quote was written, we all assumed that Zelda was going to be released within a few months' time...not in more than a year. It's just not worth pulling out random quotes and ignoring the context.[/font] [quote]Translation for both of those: "At least we're getting this."[/quote] [font=arial]Not at all. The translation would be as it says - we're getting a port. And it's a port that goes much further than many other ports. This is a good thing and not a bad thing. As I keep saying, you don't have to buy the Wii version, nor do you have to like it. But that doesn't mean the port is somehow bad or Nintendo somehow did something wrong - it's [i]okay[/i] not to buy it or like it, you don't have to justify that by trying to imply something sinister about it. lol[/font] [quote]A concession is a defeatist statement. James, you're forgiving Nintendo because you got a carrot, plain and simple. What you're failing to realize is that carrot is nowhere near as healthy as it should have been. But you don't care because it's still a carrot. You're conceding to Nintendo that the carrot is good enough. But it's not good enough to anyone who's taken a step back and really thought about what's going on here with this entire Wii launch fiasco. What you're saying is totally defeatist optimism. It's a total concession.[/quote] [font=arial]You're simply misunderstanding my comments - perhaps they are not clear enough. So I will repeat myself again. First of all, I'm not conceding anything. I am happy to have the game ported to Wii and I'd rather play it with a new control scheme. This does not equate to saying "near enough is good enough", because I have never believed that, particularly when it comes to games (and especially Nintendo games). Secondly, I'm approaching the situation in a realistic manner. Do I expect a port of Twilight Princess to have Red Steel-esque sword control? No, I don't. Why? Because it's a port, not a Wii-original. And that's fine with me. I understand that I am not getting a totally different game, I'm getting a port. This doesn't mean I have a defeatist attitude in the slightest, lol. It simply means that I'm pleased with the attention Nintendo has paid to the port and I'm going to be happy to buy the Wii version, rather than the GameCube version. [/font] [quote]Funny stuff indeed, James, because I certainly see a...gasp! What is that? Is that...a single sentence?[/quote] [font=arial]No, it's an entire post that takes forever to respond to. Haha But good try! ~_^ Anyway, I think the bottom line with all of this stuff is simply that the proof is in the pudding. I am sure that plenty of people will be turned off by Zelda using Wii controls. Perhaps I will be too. But I won't know until I try it. I'm just not willing to try to find something "horrible" about the whole thing at this stage - I am [i]generally[/i] not willing to make such presumptions before I try a game. Also...I do think it's worth correcting certain misconceptions about game development. As long as these things are corrected, I think it's a bit easier to have a more accurate view of the whole situation. That won't change what people think of the game (if they don't like the experience, they don't like it). It also won't change what anyone thinks about the delay (I don't think any of us [i]like[/i] the delay, or any delay for that matter). But at least it will ensure that this idea of a roughshot port is completely disregarded - it's definitely not a fair point when it comes to all the people who have worked so hard to ensure that the conversion is handled with care and quality.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 [quote name='Papa Smurf']Because I'd prefer totally original launch titles or at least titles that utilize the Wiimote in more than three or four ways. And anyway, as it stands, 90% of the launch list is comprised of bizarre port-jobs, Desi. Why do you think I'm waiting for Metroid?[/quote][color=#4B0082]And your point is. . . ? This answered the bit you quoted but completely ignored the rest of the paragraph. I think we'd all prefer a control scheme that takes better advantage of the Wii's controller. You obviously would, and I'm in the same boat. But that has absolutely nothing to do with a comparison between GCN-TP and Wii-TP. I mean, I'd also like Wii-TP to be free and packed in with the system instead of Wii Sports. That's not happening, but it doesn't mean Wii-TP isn't worth buying, just like Wii-TP not taking better advantage of the controller doesn't mean it isn't worth buying. Looking at what we [i]are[/i] getting, Wii-TP has some advantages that will make it worth more than GCN-TP to some people.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']That's the thing, Des. I was going to get a Wii at launch. You saw how much I was looking at spending. It was a hair under 450. And included in that list was WiiTP. Of course I want the motion sensor and pointer functionality. But if I'm going to be dropping almost 500 dollars on Wii, I want that motion sensor and pointer functionality to do more than three or four things. And so far, only three or four things are precisely what 90% of the launch titles are offering, which, personal opinion aside, is entirely not worth 400-500 dollars.[/quote][color=#4B0082]So don't buy a Wii if Wii-TP alone isn't worth it. I've been saying all along, Wii-TP by itself is really not enough to warrent buying a Wii for. But that's no reason to say Wii-TP is not worth buying at all. For those who are going to be buying a Wii for other games as well, such as I, Wii-TP is plenty worth buying.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']If they're just my "idealistic notions", answer me this. Would you disagree with what I see the first real Wii Zelda implementing? Close to 1:1 swordplay? Bow-hunting where we're no longer using targeting reticles and where we're drawing the string back because the velocity and distance of the arrows will be based on proper bow handling? Are you saying you wouldn't love to see that? You, of all people? Are you saying that whipping the Wiimote around for the boomerang isn't something you'd much prefer over selecting targets a la traditional Zeldas? Or what about activating Din's Fire (or any other magic spell) by using the Wiimote like a scepter and swirling it around in different patterns for different spells? Before you decide to call me so idealistic, take a look at what I see in the first true Wii Zelda and ask yourself if you'd be so opposed to any of it.[/quote][color=#4B0082]What I think will happen and what I'd like to see happen have little or nothing to do with what actually happens. Personally, I'd love to see a lot of the things you mentioned there, but Nintendo is going to make the game how they think is best regardless. You can't just assume, "It's going to be like this," and base your arguments off that; it's an extremely shaky foundation. Just because I happen to share a lot of the same idealistic notions as you doesn't mean they're correct.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Yes, because "nothing to get excited about" means exactly that: nothing to get excited about. And "a boring port-job" means exactly that: it's a boring port-job. Where did I even imply the game would be mediocre?[/quote][color=#4B0082]Oh, I don't know, maybe with the words, "nothing to get excited about," and, "boring"? I don't know about you, but I'd use the word mediocre to describe something unexciting and even boring. The fact is, there are a lot of people out there excited about using the Wii controller for TP, and all you've been offering as to why they shouldn't be is, "I'm not excited so you shouldn't be either." So what if the motion sensor control won't be as expansive as the first Zelda designed specifically for the Wii? Why should that stop me from enjoying what motion control there is?[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']I don't have any doubts the controls will control well, Desi. But for a flagship Zelda title on a new console, they're boring as hell...because they're just the basics.[/quote][color=#4B0082]So basically you're saying they should have been done Wii-TP all or nothing? Fully integrate the new controller into every possible action it could work well for or not release Wii-TP at all? That's a completely unrealistic expectation. I mean, do you realize that if game design took this approach nothing would ever be released? So many interviews with game developers include the question, "Is there anything you wished you could've included in the game but didn't have time for?" and almost all of them state that yes, there's always more that they wished to include but lacked time for. This is one of those situations. I'm sure they could delay TP yet again to include more Wii controller functionality, but missing the system's launch, and the holiday sales window, would hurt them far more than the extra features would help.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']To paraphrase an old high school friend who'd chastised himself for buying an Xbox solely for Deathrow, WiiTP would be a 300 dollar game then.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Wii-TP will only be a $300 game if you don't ever buy any other games for the Wii. Adding a second game makes Wii-TP a $175 game; a third makes it $133.33; a fourth makes it $112.50, and so on. As you buy more games, the fixed cost of the Wii gets spread out across them, lowering the average fixed cost. (Holy crap, I'm actually using something I learned in my economics class!) So, like I've been saying this entire time, Wii-TP is not worth it if you don't plan on buying other games. But if you do there is no reason not to buy Wii-TP instead of GCN-TP since you'll be buying a Wii anyway.[/color] [quote=Papa Smurf]What other games would you have been buying? Were you going to get the system first, regardless of the games? There it sounds like you'd decided to purchase the system before deciding on any Wii games. And like I said (and like you've known), I was originally totally sold on Wii and WiiTP, and I'd even figured on picking up Marvel Ultimate Alliance, including an extra Wiimote/nunchuck and a memory stick. But then I started wondering why I'd really want Marvel UA, especially without four controllers. So out that went. Then WiiTP would have become that 300-dollar game.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Before Wii-TP was ever announced I planned on buying a Wii for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, FFCC: The Crystal Bearers, and possibly Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. And I still plan on buying those as they're released and I can afford them. Wii-TP will simply be the only game I buy at launch, not the only game I ever buy. And I never buy a system before deciding what games I want for it. I simply don't have the money to do that and risk ending up with something I regret. The games make me buy the system, not the other way around. So don't buy it if it's going to be a $300 game. I've been saying that all along. What I've also been saying, however, is that Wii-TP is [i]not[/i] a $300 game for people who are buying other Wii games as well, and therefore it is worth the purchase over GCN-TP.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']You'd be right if I'd actually made a choice to buy the GCN version. Right now I'm not particularly interested in either version. In fact, I cancelled my GCN TP pre-order when it was delayed the first time. I've not since looked into pre-ordering it again.[/quote][color=#4B0082]My mistake. Insert the word "preference" in place of "choice" and it still works, though.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']I was talking about how close to perfect SSBM's controls are. They're precise as hell. They hold up beautifully in casual and competitive play (and still hold up today, almost five years after release). Or would you disagree with that? It seems to me that if you agree that the SSBM controls are generally close to perfect and extremely precise, you can't really get on me for something you'd agree with in the first place, which makes your above excerpt just a tad misguided here.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You're saying I can't recognize a statement as a personal opinion simply because I happen to agree with it? I don't even know how that's supposed to make sense. Yes, I like SSBM's controls. Yes, I think they're about as close to perfect as they can get. Yes, I wouldn't like it if they made you use the Wii remote. I agree with you on every count, but notice all of the "I"s in there? They reflect my personal tastes, [i]not[/i] an objective standard of quality. Saying, "I like this way the best, therefore it is the best way," is completely illogical.[/color] [quote=Papa Smurf]Here's where you've got a flaw, Des: *snip*[/quote][color=#4B0082]You're just repeating something we both know: The GCN controller works well for SSBM. You say nothing about why the Wii controller is bad for SSBM, however; only that it's good for FPSs and adventure games.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']...give me a control scheme on the Wiimote that could function in a fast and furious Smash Bros Brawl match with the same kind of precision and accuracy we see in SSBM on the GCN controller.[/quote][color=#4B0082]GCN --> Wii Control stick --> Nunchuck control stick A button --> A button B button --> B button X/Y buttons --> Control cross down L/R buttons --> Nunchuk Z button Z button -- > Nunchuk C button C stick --> Remote motion sensor (hard, fast movements up/down/left/right) Control cross up --> Control cross up There you go; SSBM's control scheme mapped perfectly to the remote and nunchuk. And from there you can make more use of the motion sensors however you see fit.[/color] [quote=Papa Smurf] Time Crisis? lol. You do realize my years of arcade shooting were exclusively Time Crisis 1, 2, and 3? And that I've had plenty of playtime with the home versions?[/quote][color=#4B0082]That's nice. But I'm afraid the number of hours you've played means jack squat in this argument, so you can stop trying to impress me. :p[/color] [quote=Papa Smurf]But if you want to try to use Time Crisis as an example...the arcade is still the only suitable place to play Time Crisis, Desi. *snip* Had they designed the Guncon better, you might have seen better performance out of the Guncon.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You completely and utterly missed the point. Home and arcade versions have nothing to do with this, neither does the quality of Guncons, and the speed of the game doesn't either. The point is, the [i]physical actions taken[/i] in playing Time Crisis with a lightgun is radically different from the actions taken with a joystick. In the first case, you're physically taking aim with the gun and your accuracy depends on how well you can aim and steady the gun, whereas in the second case all you're doing is twiddling your thumbs around until the cursor moves over where you want to shoot.[/color] [quote=Papa Smurf]Plus, Time Crisis is a shooting game. It originated as a shooting game. The speed of the game is much too fast to be accurate with a joystick. This isn't the case with the Zelda series. Zelda has always been a very methodical game where enemies and puzzle targets would frequently stay in one place to let you shoot them at your leisure. The gameplay of WiiTP is no different. The ranged enemies were staying in one spot the entire time. Until they change the game itself, it won't matter if we're using a joystick or Wiimote, which is why changing from the joystick to a Wiimote in TP is not a fundamental change in play control. If they take a few cues from something like Time Crisis? A game that depends on speed, accuracy, and a (good) lightgun? Then we'll see those fundamental changes in play control. Until then, we're still playing traditional Zelda with traditional approaches...whether we're using the Wiimote or a joystick.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Again, the ability to play Time Crisis well with a joystick was never brought up and is irrelevant to the argument. The argument isn't that you will do any better or worse at Time Crisis or TP because of the different control schemes, it's that the [i]experience itself[/i] will be different. I think the problem here is that you're talking about both fundamental control changes [i]and[/i] game design changes. These two do not have to happen together, which is the case with Wii-TP. The fundamental play control--the way you aim, using the pointer instead of a joystick, just like using a lightgun instead of a joystick--has changed, whereas the game itself--enemies being as slow as ever--has remained the same. So yes, Wii-TP will be the same game, but you manner in which you physically interact with it will be vastly different.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 [QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082]And your point is. . . ? This answered the bit you quoted but completely ignored the rest of the paragraph. I think we'd all prefer a control scheme that takes better advantage of the Wii's controller. You obviously would, and I'm in the same boat. But that has absolutely nothing to do with a comparison between GCN-TP and Wii-TP. I mean, I'd also like Wii-TP to be free and packed in with the system instead of Wii Sports. That's not happening, but it doesn't mean Wii-TP isn't worth buying, just like Wii-TP not taking better advantage of the controller doesn't mean it isn't worth buying. Looking at what we [i]are[/i] getting, Wii-TP has some advantages that will make it worth more than GCN-TP to some people.[/color][/quote] I think I'll talk for once since the thread has been basically dominated by like two or three people for several days. Some of these points I'm debating a little but I'm mostly just playing off of some for my own commentary. Of course the Wii version of Twilight Princess has some advantages that could potentially make it the definitive version. But, at the end of the day the Wii version of Twilight Princess is still a GameCube game. The game was developed for the Gamecube and is being released on the Gamecube within the span of a month of the Wii version. That sort of sets a weird precedent and throws a wrench into the Wii launch as far as I am concerned. Because very similar versions of the same game are being released within such a short period of time the question is not whether the Wii TP is worth buying over the GameCube version. Rather, the conflict is whether the Wii TP is enough to justify the purchase of an entirely new system when you could theoretically play the same game on your current system. Is it worth spending $300 for the Wii enhanced port? Are the enhancements really [I]that[/I] significant? Of course the answer is subjective, but that is the source of concern there unless you just have plenty of money to throw around. Personally, I really want a Wii and I love what it stands for, and I have other systems to play so I probably won't mind. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and looking at it the other way. [quote][color=#4B0082]So don't buy a Wii if Wii-TP alone isn't worth it. I've been saying all along, Wii-TP by itself is really not enough to warrent buying a Wii for. But that's no reason to say Wii-TP is not worth buying at all. For those who are going to be buying a Wii for other games as well, such as I, Wii-TP is plenty worth buying.[/color][/quote] That keeps getting repeated here, but let's lay the cards on the table. It is obvious that Nintendo did not have a killer app ready for the Wii launch. There is no Mario game. There is no Super Smash Bros. Heck, there is no Wario Ware. Most of the games available at launch are mini games or extremely questionable in terms of quality. So, Nintendo took a highly anticipated Gamecube game, enhanced it slightly, slapped a Wii sticker on it and strategically delayed the Cube version. The Wii TP [I]is[/I] the Wii launch. No one is buying the Wii at launch for other games because there aren't any worth noting. Just like at most launches. The PS3 is in the same situation and it really makes me appreciate what MS did. [quote][color=#4B0082]What I think will happen and what I'd like to see happen have little or nothing to do with what actually happens. Personally, I'd love to see a lot of the things you mentioned there, but Nintendo is going to make the game how they think is best regardless. You can't just assume, "It's going to be like this," and base your arguments off that; it's an extremely shaky foundation. Just because I happen to share a lot of the same idealistic notions as you doesn't mean they're correct.[/color][/quote] Eh, generally speaking, a real Wii Zelda will come along eventually that will make better use of the Wiimote because it will be designed for the Wii from the ground up. That should be a fact and I don't even think it's worth discussing too much right now. Yet, that is the frame of reference he is using in comparison to the Wii port. Of course we should not assume any specifics but some assumptions are pretty darn safe. Because Nintendo chose to launch a system that [I]entirely[/I] rests on its ability to offer unique controls, it is the right of the consumer to have high expectations. Nintendo is releasing a system that is more or less and Xbox with better textures and less shaders and charging $250 for it, so we should be making idealistic aspirations and expecting advanced use of the controller. If I'm not getting that I may as well be playing my DS instead. [quote][color=#4B0082]Oh, I don't know, maybe with the words, "nothing to get excited about," and, "boring"? I don't know about you, but I'd use the word mediocre to describe something unexciting and even boring. The fact is, there are a lot of people out there excited about using the Wii controller for TP, and all you've been offering as to why they shouldn't be is, "I'm not excited so you shouldn't be either."[/quote] Although I am not him, I want to actually be able to have some conversation here, if I can. I have an open attitude in regard to the controls. It seems, based on impressions I have read that they have been tightened up recently and are quite enjoyable. I reserved the Wii version of the game because I am optimistic and I want to see how things develop. But I can see where he is coming from and precisely what he means. The controls are fun, I'm sure. But remember what I said earlier--Nintendo is asking us to pay $250 to gain access to them. Because that is the case, we should put them under critical scrutiny. The Wii launch is Zelda. Sure there will be some Virtual Console games and I can check the weather, but what else is there, immediately? This is the holiday season and money becomes an issue especially during this time of year. No other Wii game screams "must-have." Again, no Xbox 360 games did at launch and no PS3 games do either. So, you have to step back, look at the controls and ask yourself if they are so significant that you are willing to become an early adopter just for them. For some, that will absolutely be the case. Those more critical will be fine playing the almost identical Gamecube version for now and opt to put the Wii off for the time being. I personally think that Wii Sports will be pretty fun to play with others so that may become the deal breaker. But yet, all of us here can admit that the controls in the Wii version will be pretty nifty but Zelda is not going to be the Wii's Nintendogs; it is not going to be [i]the[/i] game that crosses the threshold and truly takes advantage of the system. In that sense, I see why some would give the Wii TP a lukewarm reception; they are looking for an immediate validation for their investment. But, you rarely find that at a launch for any system. [quote]So what if the motion sensor control won't be as expansive as the first Zelda designed specifically for the Wii? Why should that stop me from enjoying what motion control there is?[/quote] Again, money. Perhaps you have a money tree in your back yard, I don't know. But, like I established earlier, Zelda is really the only title of significance releasing at launch. Perhaps it will not stop you from enjoying what motion control there is but I myself even wonder if the controls are worth all that money. Look at it from a consumer standpoint. $250 is a good portion of what it will take to buy an Xbox 360, which has several quality titles and Gears of War launching around the same time as Wii. There's also the shroud of the Gamecube version which plenty of people have already preordered. Wii will pick up momentum in due time but right out of the gate it is an alternative. When the same game is coming out on a pre-existing system, the Wii is not much of an alternative unless those controls make it one. [quote][color=#4B0082]So basically you're saying they should have been done Wii-TP all or nothing? Fully integrate the new controller into every possible action it could work well for or not release Wii-TP at all? That's a completely unrealistic expectation. I mean, do you realize that if game design took this approach nothing would ever be released? So many interviews with game developers include the question, "Is there anything you wished you could've included in the game but didn't have time for?" and almost all of them state that yes, there's always more that they wished to include but lacked time for[/quote] They probably should have just cancelled the Gamecube version, which would have ended the conflict right there. Nintendo is competing with themselves and it is just a dumb, sloppy move. [quote][color=#4B0082]Wii-TP will only be a $300 game if you don't ever buy any other games for the Wii. Adding a second game makes Wii-TP a $175 game; a third makes it $133.33; a fourth makes it $112.50, and so on. As you buy more games, the fixed cost of the Wii gets spread out across them, lowering the average fixed cost. (Holy crap, I'm actually using something I learned in my economics class!)[/quote] Nice try at spinning this, but you should have left that in your economics class. lol The Wii is the investment here and the cost is never really going to pan out because you're going to keep spending more. The satisfaction of the investment can only be measured in how much enjoyment you are getting out of the system. In the end, you're going to just keep spending money. The issue here is when exactly is it going to be worth spending that money. I don't think anyone is saying that Twilight Princess is a $300 game [I]period[/I]. I don't think Alex or anyone else plans on buying a Wii for one game alone. In the context of the holiday season, however, the price of admission for Wii TP is $250 dollars. Again, whether that price is worth it or not is subjective, but people are going to have to consider whether it is worth paying $300 dollars to play Wii TP now, or saving money during the holidays by paying for the Gamecube version and waiting for exclusive killer apps to launch for the Wii. [quote]So, like I've been saying this entire time, Wii-TP is not worth it if you don't plan on buying other games. But if you do there is no reason not to buy Wii-TP instead of GCN-TP since you'll be buying a Wii anyway.[/quote] Yep. [quote]Before Wii-TP was ever announced I planned on buying a Wii for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, FFCC: The Crystal Bearers, and possibly Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. And I still plan on buying those as they're released and I can afford them. Wii-TP will simply be the only game I buy at launch, not the only game I ever buy.[/quote] You know, I'm not one for economics classes, but the DS launched with nothing I was interested in and when the games I was interested in did finally release, the system had dropped in price, saving me money. Go figure. I don't think that Wii will be as bad a case as the DS was though and we should be seeing more interesting games in a more timely fashion, at least. [quote]And I never buy a system before deciding what games I want for it. I simply don't have the money to do that and risk ending up with something I regret. The games make me buy the system, not the other way around.[/quote] I never buy a system until I can actually play those games. If Sonic, Madden and Red Steel turn out well then it's a different situation entirely. It's a launch and I'm not expecting anything super terrific. But if the games are fun and functional then it'll be different enough to warrant a purchase, which makes Zelda a necessity anyway. [quote]So don't buy it if it's going to be a $300 game. I've been saying that all along. What I've also been saying, however, is that Wii-TP is [i]not[/i] a $300 game for people who are buying other Wii games as well, and therefore it is worth the purchase over GCN-TP.[/quote] Once again it is a $50 dollar game with a $250 admission ticket. If I am going to buy the system immediately and only have that one game to play on it for a while, it had better be a lot more enjoyable than the Gamecube version. Hopefully it is. Otherwise, there's no justification to jump right in. If I really feel the need to play the new Sonic the Hedgehog or whatever, then sure, it's definitely worth picking up since I'm going to have the system anyway. All in all though, they should have just made Zelda exclusive to the Wii; that's probably my primary criticism at this point. I'm sure that the Wii version will be awesome and that the controls will be fun, but the existence of the Gamecube version really creates a conflict that really shouldn't be there to begin with. The combined sales of both games will be great, but I personally think it would have been cool just using it as an anchor for Wii. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunfallE Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 [COLOR=RoyalBlue][quote name='Charles']You know, I'm not one for economics classes, but the DS launched with nothing I was interested in and when the games I was interested in did finally release, the system had dropped in price, saving me money. Go figure. I don't think that Wii will be as bad a case as the DS was though and we should be seeing more interesting games in a more timely fashion, at least.[/quote]This is actually part of the reason why I won?t be getting the Wii when it launches either. Other than Zelda, I am not interested in any of the other games being released, so it seems like a complete waste of money to spend an addition $250 for a new system and some new features, when I can get the Zelda game for my GameCube and it won?t bother me a bit that I won?t get the Wii features that have been added for the Wii version. And like Charles just said, by the time I probably do get it, hopefully it will have dropped in price making it easier to afford. Ironically the idea of motion sensors and moving the remote to do things does not interest me at all. Though I am sure it will be fun, I have arthritis and I?m worried that the repetitive motion will end up being something that makes playing the game painful after a short while. It?s part of why I rarely buy fighting or racing games. I simply can?t tolerate very much of that without paying for it. So I end up buying games with systems that are a bit less demanding and are more simplistic for the actual action in the game. So if it turns out that it?s a feature that you are stuck with and you can?t turn it off I?m going to be very disappointed in the system as it will essentially lock me out of playing quite a few games. Or I?ll be limited to playing very short sessions which doesn?t appeal to me. I sincerely hope that Nintendo had the foresight to make some of those things an option, like the rumble feature which can be turned off. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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