James Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 [font=arial]If you can play existing game systems, I think if anything, you'll have an easier time with Wii (because there are plenty of games on the system that won't even require the nunchuk...so you won't need to constantly use the analog stick all the time, nor will you have to press a lot of buttons). On the question of price, I think it depends. If you are planning on getting a Wii anyway, TP is a good investment. But if you're on the fence about Wii, I doubt TP alone is going to be enough to convince you to buy the system (especially if you already own a GameCube - in that case I definitely agree that the price is too much of a factor).[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 [QUOTE=James]You are referring to development time, right? Let's just establish that first. You're saying that it's unusual for these types of changes to occur so late in a game's development. What I'm telling you is that this is simply incorrect. Many games go through these types of changes (and more complex ones) this late in their development cycle. If that is not what you are saying, then please clarify it, because the point seems to keep changing.[/quote] James, indeed I AM referring to development time. And these changes, reasons, and decisions we see regarding WiiTP are unlike anything we've seen before. You're talking about the usual dev changes in usual dev cycles. I'm talking about a quick decision port at nine months away from launch so Nintendo could have something halfway attractive and decent at launch. [quote]The problem is that you are hair-splitting and running around in circles here. I am making distinctions, but you are ignoring them. So let me repeat: You are telling me that these changes are the equivalent of a shotgun wedding. They are not. Nintendo has had plenty of time to implement these changes - they've had almost one year. That is a long time in any game's development. Therefore, nobody should be concerned that Nintendo is simply riding roughshot over the game, because that simply isn't the case. *snip GCN-Wii tech similarities* So, to do a direct port, it would probably take a month or less - this is without controller changes or additions. If you work from this basis, Nintendo still had months (well over six months) to implement additions and controller changes. Most of this time would have been dedicated to testing and analysis. As a result, nobody can say with any degree of authority that this is a rushed port, or a port that suffers from the transition.[/quote] When there's only a nine-month window with which a company is adding in a small handful of features to a quickly ported game because the launch list is absolutely abysmal, and said features turn out to be less than impressive (and some downright laughable, like the vertical Wiimote swing occasionally translating into horizontal sword slices), that is most certainly "riding roughshot" over the game. [quote]First of all, I made that comment in August of 2005 - well before E3 2006 came along.[...]You have to remember that when the quote was made, the Wii's technical specifications were not fully understood by anyone outside Nintendo. In fact, this was even before the controller was unveiled (that was in October 2005).[...][b]At that point in time, the quote was assuming that the Wii was going to be significantly more powerful[/b]...it was also assuming that the game would be entirely redeveloped for Wii (rather than simply ported from GameCube).[...]Again, you're pulling out a complete red herring. This is a poor way to argue a case, Alex. lol Since you like bolding text, I'll bold my response. [b]I was talking about moving the game from GameCube to Wii...not simply porting it and releasing it on both consoles.[/b] It's just not worth pulling out random quotes and ignoring the context.[/quote] It was a stupid assumption to make, and a tragic mistake on your part. We know Nintendo's philosophy regarding the system arms race, and we've always known that Revolution was not going in the Tim Allen-esque "MORE POWER harharhorhararr" direction. We knew this from Iwata's comments circa May 2005 (three months before your comments), when he explained that Nintendo was going in the complete opposite direction with regards to Sony and Microsoft's arms race. We knew this from earlier that May, at E3 2005, when it was revealed that Revolution was going to be 2-3 times more powerful than GCN, while 360 was approximately 13-15 times more powerful than the current Xbox, and the PS3 was roughly 35x more powerful than the PS2. And as vague as those numbers were, it was asinine and foolish to conclude that Revolution was going to be "significantly more powerful" than GCN and then use that to explain why moving TP to Revolution wouldn't be worth it. Come now. Don't pass off those comments as "there was really no way of knowing at the time" because there most certainly was a way of knowing at the time: by reading. It wasn't some huge secret that Revolution/Wii wasn't going to be "significantly more powerful." That was totally obvious by how carefully Iwata was choosing his words. Nintendo wasn't going for more power; they were going for a different type of controller. [quote]Secondly, the comment must be taken in context - you yourself are pulling a classic O'Reilly by disregarding the quotation's placement in the discussion.[/quote] Here's a thought. The context hasn't changed at all. There you were talking about how it would be a poor business decision to move TP to the Wii. But that's exactly what happened, James. Nintendo has all but cancelled the GCN TP. They've arbitrarily delayed it so it'll release a month after WiiTP launches. They've given WiiTP total preferential treatment, even including forking the customer between dropping 300 dollars to play one game at launch since the rest of the launch list is totally forgettable or waiting a month to play a version of the game that might as well have been destroyed anyway. Face it. Nintendo doesn't give a **** about the GCN version. You might point to them still releasing it as proof that they still care. That's not proof of them caring at all; they're only releasing it to save face with the consumer. And that, my dear Aussie brethren, is totally obvious. Don't kid yourself here. Nintendo hasn't cared about the GCN TP for almost a year now. This situation is exactly the situation (barring one tiny delay announcement Nintendo needs to make today) that you and Charles were discussing back in August 2005. [quote]I am only referring to ports here.[/quote] As am I. Re-read that portion of my post. The changes made to games like Marvel UA and Madden 07 (both ports of other games) kick the **** out of what we see in WiiTP. Those two games right there offer far, far better implementations of the Wiimote functionality, [i]because they weren't quick, last-minute decision port-jobs[/i]. You tried to say that WiiTP is getting better treatment than other ports, and that's just a load of crap when you look at what the other ports have to offer. In WiiTP, that nine months gave us a sword control that makes no distinction between any type of swipe except for a jab, a shield bash that is nothing more than a jab with the nunchuck attachment, and bow control that barely qualifies as anything. In Marvel UA, however? Every direction in the swing of the Wiimote does something different. They condensed an entire control scheme onto a motion sensor and it sounds very solid. Madden 07 is giving us throw control, kick control (with slice influence depending on how much we tilt the controller), jukes, spins, stiff-arms, and even independent arm control to bat the ball out of the air. Even Far Cry Vengeance is being considerably improved, including feral attacks being mapped to the Wiimote motion sensor (and the Wiimote actually discriminates between directions here, unlike WiiTP). If you're talking about the total gimmick ports, then yeah, WiiTP is getting better treatment. But that's like comparing dogsh-t to catsh-t; in the end, after the comparison, both are still going to be sh-tty. [quote]You can talk about how you don't like the canned sword attacks, but every Zelda has had these - pressing the same button to achieve different swipes is no different to simply moving the controller.[/quote] When canned sword attacks was all the previous versions of Zelda could do, I was fine with that. It's when we could theoretically jerk-off the Wiimote and still go through the same canned attack swings where I get annoyed, because that is just totally sloppy and represents certainly a roughshot port. And jacking-off the Wiimote is not as exaggerated as you will want to imply; there is no discrimination between the Wiimote and the sword attacks. [quote]Right. What is your point? That the game had a multi-year development cycle and was delayed multiple times has nothing to do with converting the game to Wii. lol[/quote] Oh, it absolutely has something to do with converting the game to Wii. Nintendo said the delays were to add dungeons and such, right? At first, that seemed to be the case. Then they basically said to hell with the GCN version and jumped ship to Wii. That timing is way too good to be coincidental. I can see that. Charles can see that. Most people can see that. You can't. Why? [quote]I ignored neither of your options - I simply said that these are the only options you're providing. Both are biased and reflect your own inaccurate view of the development process.[/quote] Inaccurate view? Nintendo sees a sub-par launch line-up (and it is sub-par), delays GCN TP accordingly, takes nine months to add some minor, piddly modifications (and some modifications that are totally unimpressive) to the GCN TP, and then turns TP into a launch title for Wii. That's a quick, last-minute decision on Nintendo's part, and judging how the modifications are less than stellar Nintendo quality, I'd say that's a slap-dash port-job that happened only because they needed a launch title worth getting. That isn't an "inaccurate view of the development process" James. It's reality. Defend Nintendo all you want. They just ****ed themselves three or four times over. This entire release and port fiasco reeks of corporate slime. And that's obvious to everyone here except you and Desbreko. [quote]I'm simply not going to go into an entire debate about the launch list. I'm just not going to go there at the moment - I barely have the time to keep chasing my tail here, lol. Maybe we can discuss the launch lineup in a new thread when the system is actually available. ^_^[/quote] It wouldn't be an entire debate because apart from WiiTP, [i]there is no launch line-up[/i]. We have a few games of interest (Madden, Red Steel, Marvel UA) but like Charles said, those games are questionable quality-wise, so that still brings us back to square one: that if Nintendo didn't quickly port TP over to Wii and bare-bone the few modifications we have, they'd have nothing truly attractive at launch. [quote]Well, again...all of this is based on what? Ultimately it's based on an assumption.[/quote] It's not an assumption. It's an educated guess. Iwata has said TP is the last "traditional Zelda game." What have we had in the traditional Zelda games? Exactly what I was talking about in my previous quote. Stupid, slow, stationary enemies. Pattern-plagued boss fights. Slow, methodical pacing. [quote]Regardless how the AI behaves or how the levels are designed, playing Zelda on Wii is going to feel completely different because of the interaction method used.[...]movement and game interaction are fundamentally different on Wii - not necessarily better, but different. That's my point.[...]Whether or not the enemies are different isn't really relevant here. If you find it more difficult to aim your arrow with the remote, because of the added sensitivity and physical movement, this may change the way you approach certain situations in the game - it might make you more cautious, or if you are better with this system, it might make you more confident and more willing to dive into the action. In the end, it will have an impact on the overall game experience.[/quote] It'll only feel different if you can't take as much time as you want in shooting enemies or solving puzzles or whatever. No matter if you play with a joystick or a Wiimote, as long as the AI still behaves in the same ancient pattern-based loop (as per traditional Zelda games), the control won't feel any different because you're not required at all to react faster, to shoot faster, to aim faster, or to move faster. And if still you end up treating the game like another Time Crisis...the only impact the Wiimote will have is demonstrating how dated traditional Zelda is (and one of the greatest ironies regarding the port of WiiTP). It's the Halo PC port syndrome. You have a console game designed around a joystick that is suddenly moved to a free mouse control method without the AI being dramatically improved, which ends up being detrimental to the game to those who think about it critically, which makes the game substandard, which then proves without a doubt why it was a bad idea to do a port in the first place when all that was being added was window-dressing controls with never addressing the game itself. [quote]No...not at all. I'm not saying that casual gamers don't know about the GCN version being delayed - I'm saying that many simply won't care. Many casual gamers don't even play Zelda, for starters. lol[/quote] Then why say "Most people won't know or care" when referring to the GCN delay? Regarding your casual gamers/Zelda statement...I find the best places to observe gaming tendencies are in the stores, public places, etc. And you would be surprised just how many casual gamers play Zelda. You've got moms with their kids, high school students both male and female, college students...many casual gamers [i]do[/i] play Zelda. [quote]You are assuming that all casual gamers are Zelda players. Most are not. Most casual gamers (and non-gamers) don't even own a GameCube - and they are certainly not going to buy one just for Zelda.[/quote] So instead they're going to drop a little over 300 dollars for a system so they can play one game? Because of the controller? You mean the one that'll cost them 60 bucks a pop? Because of a back catalog of games that only presently consist of GCN games...a system said customer never even owned in the first place? Why would they want to buy older games for a system they obviously never felt was worth buying? Because the older games have dropped to rock-bottom prices, as well as the peripherals? If those older games are the AAA titles on GCN (and why would anyone buy anything else?), it's doubtful they'll find them for cheap. Hell, Mario Kart Double Dash still retails for close to release price. [quote]You also have to remember that many casual gamers simply aren't as informed as you or I. Plenty of people are going to simply say "Yeah, I'd rather play this game on a new system than an old one". Sure, it's not something you or I would say, but plenty will say it, I assure you.[/quote] You're so confident about that kind of thought process? Recent trip to EB Games demonstrated otherwise. Mom with two kids. Accessory purchase for the first DS. They look at the DS stylus selection (only version there is the Lite stylus). They ask for help because they're not sure if Lite is the same as what they need. The employee explains there are two different types of the stylus due to Nintendo releasing a redesigned version of the DS. The mom's reaction is not pleased at all. "What? We just bought this a few months ago and already they came out with a new one? *sigh*" The employee didn't say anything to try to mitigate her disappointment, because he knew she was right. The mom is a non-gamer. The kids are casual gamers. And the company they all were disappointed by was Nintendo. [quote]Well...let's put it in perspective. $250 for the system, $50 for the game, controller is included and no memory stick is required (game saves can be stored on the system's Flash ROM). So it's certainly not an expensive proposition - this is particularly true if you compare it to everything else that is available on the market in the next generation (Xbox 360 and PS3, for example).[/quote] Who cares about the price of 360 and PS3? Again, comparing **** to **** doesn't make anything look better. Plus, non-gamers will look at 250 and still cringe. Hell, even casual and hardcore gamers heard about Nintendo's pricing and were disappointed. Wii is a few times more powerful than GCN. Nintendo is selling a modified GCN for 250 dollars. That doesn't sit right with any gamer who's been following anything about the Wii. [quote]I don't quite know how you figure that Nintendo isn't intending to appeal to hardcore gamers with Wii.[/quote] Simple. Their entire mantra for Wii has been THE KEY IS BEING INCLUSIVE. Look at the demo videos for Wii, the early commercials, the current ads, the speeches by Iwata and Miyamoto. They mention the hardcore gamers, but their focus here is non-gamers and/or casual gamers. And yet as it stands, the hardcore gamers are still likely to be their only customers, because Nintendo made some very bad decisions regarding the pricing, the games, the ad campaigns...pretty much everything required to sell the system to the "Inclusive" target audience. [quote]No chance for preparation? [b]How does that have anything to do with hardcore gamers?[/b] [b] Hardcore gamers are already pre-ordering the thing[/b]. It's no different to any other launch in that sense.[/quote] Where are these pre-orders happening? Nowhere in the States, that's for sure, and North America is going to be one of the earliest launches (if not the earliest) for Wii. And no chance for preparation has everything to do with hardcore gamers, based on what you said: " For the hardcore gamers...well, WiiTP is a bonus if you own a Wii." Nobody owns a Wii yet. Nobody can even pre-order in the States. WiiTP can't be a bonus for hardcore gamers when those hardcore gamers aren't even able to reserve the system. Frankly, your defense of Nintendo here is incoherent. [quote]If these people are "hardcore gamers" and they've had the game pre-ordered for that long, then surely they would know that a month-long delay is absolutely peanuts for a Nintendo game. Start thinking about every Nintendo game that has seen a significant delay and it will start to become clearer.[/quote] Most gamers (usually especially the ones who pre-order games) know the difference between a development delay and an arbitrary ******** delay, James. Every other Nintendo game was delayed due to development. This month delay for GCN TP is an arbitrary ******** delay solely designed to leverage more Wii sales. [quote]The hardcore gamers will be the ones who will line up at midnight for Wii, too. The hardcore gamers are the ones who will still buy Zelda despite the delay. The hardcore gamers are the ones who will probably buy both Zeldas in some cases.[/quote] And they're going to be the ones truly supporting Wii in any way at all. Nintendo [i]will[/i] miss their target audience. I used to doubt that, but based on what happened in EB Games a while back, I no longer have any doubts in my mind, at least regarding how the Wii will do in the States here. [quote]It's not a federal case, it's a month-long game delay. Those of us who have been playing Nintendo games for years are used to much worse.[/quote] Again, difference between development delays and ******** arbitrary delays. [quote]Not at all. The translation would be as it says - we're getting a port. And it's a port that goes much further than many other ports. This is a good thing and not a bad thing.[/quote] That's not what those sentences mean at all. lol. When someone says "we're lucky we're getting this" or "better than nothing" does NOT imply "we're getting a port." The language used is nothing more than a different way of saying "at least we're getting this." James, don't try to re-define what you said, because what you said is plenty obvious to anyone here who can [i]read[/i]. You established a comparison between the WiiTP port and "nothing" when you said "the port is better than nothing." That comparison is [i]clear as hell[/i]. Any Linguistics professor would tell you that. And why did you compare WiiTP to nothing? Because you wanted to make it clear that we, the gaming public, were "lucky" to be getting anything. But in order to say that, you had to compare a game to nothing...and when the only way for a game to appear impressive is by comparing it to nothing, that speaks VOLUMES about how good the game actually is. And go ahead and compare it to something like Marvel UA or Madden 07 since it would be a stronger comparison, then watch as the piddly little offerings in WiiTP get completely obliterated by far deeper and much more precise and impressive port-jobs. [quote]As I keep saying, you don't have to buy the Wii version, nor do you have to like it. But that doesn't mean the port is somehow bad or Nintendo somehow did something wrong - it's okay not to buy it or like it, you don't have to justify that by trying to imply something sinister about it. lol[/quote] Sinister? James, I've been showing lousy business and development. That is far from trying to imply something sinister. [quote]First of all, I'm not conceding anything.[/quote] Yes you are. lol. You're conceding that this version with bare-bone modifications is good enough, and then comparing those bare-bone modifications to the GCN version. That's a ****-to-**** comparison again. [quote]No, it's an entire post that takes forever to respond to. Haha But good try! ~_^[/quote] Here's a thought. Concede the point instead of laughing about it. You tried to say I don't know the meaning of a sentence, yet I quoted myself in this very thread and proved you wrong. The only reason my long posts take any time to reply to is because I'm unpacking that single sentence. [quote]Anyway, I think the bottom line with all of this stuff is simply that the proof is in the pudding.[/QUOTE] Apart from it being quite possibly the worst phrase I've ever read in my life, it's the truth. The proof here that Nintendo has screwed up pretty much everything about the Wii launch and TP in both versions is blatantly obvious everywhere you look. Those that continue to deny it, even with all of the evidence present, are resisting what everyone else can plainly see. [quote name='Desbreko']Looking at what we are getting, Wii-TP has some advantages that will make it worth more than GCN-TP to some people.[/quote] Again, though, does that make it worth paying 300 dollars to play? That's all you'd be getting for a few months, easily. [quote]You can't just assume, "It's going to be like this," and base your arguments off that; it's an extremely shaky foundation.[/quote] Like I explained to James, and like Charles said, there are such things as safe assumptions and guesses. We've been told by Iwata & CO. that TP will be the last traditional Zelda game. That means everything we see in both WiiTP and GCN TP will change dramatically come Wii Zelda. And what I'm expecting in Wii Zelda is not so outrageous, especially considering the Nintendo hype machine for Wii Zelda has already started. Wii Zelda is guaranteed to blow every other Zelda game away, if only because it's going to be the first true Wii Zelda. We as consumers are perfectly within our rights to expect certain elements for Zelda on the Wii, and we're perfectly within our rights to use those expectations to judge a launch title port of a GCN game. Because that's exactly the kind of consumer environment Nintendo has established with the Wiimote and a console originally called "Revolution." [quote]Oh, I don't know, maybe with the words, "nothing to get excited about," and, "boring"? I don't know about you, but I'd use the word mediocre to describe something unexciting and even boring. The fact is, there are a lot of people out there excited about using the Wii controller for TP, and all you've been offering as to why they shouldn't be is, "I'm not excited so you shouldn't be either."[/quote] Considering that Nintendo made the decision to rush TP for the Wii launch so they could have something remotely resembling a killer app, I have every right to be as hard on them as I am. They put themselves out there for scrutiny and critical examination when they announced a Wii port nine months before launch. That right there is reason enough to be harder on them than usual, because that was a bone-headed move. Also considering that WiiTP is a first-party Zelda title for a new system...the fact that we're only getting the basics is boring and just not exciting at all. It's also embarrassing, to be honest. [quote]So what if the motion sensor control won't be as expansive as the first Zelda designed specifically for the Wii? Why should that stop me from enjoying what motion control there is?[/quote] If your standards are that low (no offense, don't mean this to sound as mean as it does), then by all means, go for it. But it's still a carrot designed to boost Wii sales. The good stuff is coming later, just like the DS. Super Mario 64 DS was the carrot back then. WiiTP is the carrot now. Neither were/are true killer apps. Super Mario 64 on N64 was a killer app. Super Mario World was a killer app. Super Mario Bros was a killer app. Even New Super Mario Bros was a killer app for DS Lite. [quote]So basically you're saying they should have been done Wii-TP all or nothing? Fully integrate the new controller into every possible action it could work well for or not release Wii-TP at all? That's a completely unrealistic expectation. I mean, do you realize that if game design took this approach nothing would ever be released? So many interviews with game developers include the question, "Is there anything you wished you could've included in the game but didn't have time for?" and almost all of them state that yes, there's always more that they wished to include but lacked time for.[/quote] Des, pointing to other games to try to broadly apply my point is a bad move, because WiiTP is [i]not[/i] like other games. This isn't some regular development cycle of a game that's coming out in the middle of a console's life cycle. WiiTP, like Charles said, [i]is[/i] the Wii launch. It was a late decision late in the development cycle that left little time to do anything substantial with the Wiimote features before WiiTP had to be on shelves. And because of that late decision, Nintendo painted themselves into a corner, so to speak: either delay WiiTP and lose pretty much Wii's launch, or release it with less than substantial Wiimote functionality and have gamers start questioning whether Wii is worth buying at launch, due to the gimmicky nature of its entire launch line-up. The most desirable option is never to announce a Wii version at all. This would have required significantly more planning ahead, however, because in addition to closely evaluating their options regarding WiiTP, they would have also had to make sure to have one or two killer apps at launch so they could fill the gap of WiiTP, as well as making sure the non-killer apps in the launch line-up make the system worth buying. [quote]So, like I've been saying this entire time, Wii-TP is not worth it if you don't plan on buying other games.[...]Before Wii-TP was ever announced I planned on buying a Wii for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, FFCC: The Crystal Bearers, and possibly Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.[...]And I never buy a system before deciding what games I want for it. I simply don't have the money to do that and risk ending up with something I regret. The games make me buy the system, not the other way around.[/quote] So why even buy at launch? 3/5 of those games aren't even coming until 2007, and we both know there are going to be major deals later on, probably even as early as Q2 next year...I'd imagine right in time for Metroid and/or Smash Bros Brawl. If you'd only be getting WiiTP at launch, why spend 300 right there? Realistically, what is so needed at launch that you couldn't get for better later? This is one of the questions I asked myself. [quote]My mistake. Insert the word "preference" in place of "choice" and it still works, though.[/quote] You made another mistake before that one. I'm not justifying anything by bashing WiiTP. I made the decision a while ago, and I went through a pretty bizarre decision process before arriving at said decision. Charles can confirm this. My reasoning I've been stating here came before my decision to pass on Wii until I can get my hands on Metroid. There's no justification, because it's [i]only[/i] a justification if the thought process comes [i]after[/i] the decision in question. Which it doesn't. So I'm not trying to justify anything for myself here. [quote]You're saying I can't recognize a statement as a personal opinion simply because I happen to agree with it? I don't even know how that's supposed to make sense.[/quote] Des, when have you known me to consider the very idea of an opinion, especially when I know I have a very clear and realistic view on a topic, and when I know that you agree with me in the first place? [quote]Yes, I like SSBM's controls. Yes, I think they're about as close to perfect as they can get. Yes, I wouldn't like it if they made you use the Wii remote. I agree with you on every count, but notice all of the "I"s in there? They reflect my personal tastes, not an objective standard of quality. Saying, "I like this way the best, therefore it is the best way," is completely illogical.[/quote] Careful, Des. I don't think it's the best way because I like that way best. I like that way best because it's the best way. It all comes down to efficiency. My assessment of the controller is a matter of efficiency before personal taste. And the GCN controller, as we have both illustrated, is the most efficient controller for Smash Bros. [quote]You're just repeating something we both know: The GCN controller works well for SSBM. [b]You say nothing about why the Wii controller is bad for SSBM, however[/b]; only that it's good for FPSs and adventure games.[/quote] Because I let you do that for me. See below. [quote]GCN --> Wii Control stick --> Nunchuck control stick A button --> A button B button --> B button X/Y buttons --> Control cross down L/R buttons --> Nunchuk Z button Z button -- > Nunchuk C button C stick --> Remote motion sensor (hard, fast movements up/down/left/right) Control cross up --> Control cross up There you go; SSBM's control scheme mapped perfectly to the remote and nunchuk. And from there you can make more use of the motion sensors however you see fit.[/quote] Are you kidding? You've mapped the C-stick controls to the motion sensor. Do your hands stay perfectly still the entire match? Does anyone's hands stay perfectly still the entire match? Smash Bros is a game that depends on precision and speed. All you need is one of the typical "oh holy crap" arm jerks and your character just got smashed out of the arena because no matter what those hard, fast movements would be, they just totally interrupted your attack sequence. You just helped prove my point, Des: It is impossible for the Wiimote to handle Smash Bros with the same type of precision and accuracy in a typical, fast and heated match as we see with the GCN controller. [quote]That's nice. But I'm afraid the number of hours you've played means jack squat in this argument, so you can stop trying to impress me.[/quote] I'm sure that I am. lol. I'm just warning you beforehand that I've been playing Time Crisis for a very long time. You weren't even in middle school yet and I'd already logged a significant amount of playtime on the game when the original debuted in arcades. [quote]Home and arcade versions have nothing to do with this, neither does the quality of Guncons, and the speed of the game doesn't either.[/quote] Desi, if the home and arcade versions have nothing to do with this, [i]then don't bring up joysticks in the first place[/i]. The home versions of the game are the only place joysticks could be used. [quote]In the first case, you're physically taking aim with the gun and your accuracy depends on how well you can aim and steady the gun, whereas in the second case all you're doing is twiddling your thumbs around until the cursor moves over where you want to shoot.[/quote] You're physically taking aim with the gun because the game was designed to be used with a lightgun. The only reason your your accuracy and weapon proficiency matters is because of how blazing fast Time Crisis requires you to be...since it's a lightgun game. The only reason the joystick wouldn't perform in that "twiddling your thumbs around" way is if the game were dramatically re-programmed with a joystick in mind. This means altering the enemies, altering (increasing) the joystick's sensitivity, and altering the pace of the game. Plus, there are a few home conversions of arcade lightgun games where the joystick isn't as "twiddly" as you say. Area 51 on PSX, perfect example. Even Die Hard Trilogy's rail shooting sequence on PSX was a solid one because of the altered game design. You aren't making a solid comparison, Des. [quote]it's that the experience itself will be different.[/quote] The experience itself will only be different if the game itself is changed. [quote]The fundamental play control--the way you aim, using the pointer instead of a joystick, just like using a lightgun instead of a joystick--has changed, whereas the game itself--enemies being as slow as ever--has remained the same. So yes, Wii-TP will be the same game, but you manner in which you physically interact with it will be vastly different.[/QUOTE] That strictly physical change is not fundamental. It's altering a window-dressing. You're still taking all the time that you want to kill regular ranged and stationary enemies. There's still zero urgency. Plus, I sincerely doubt aiming with the bow is going to require such a huge change in how you move. Regular people won't be using their entire arms. Regular people will probably be barely using their forearms. The Wiimote is all about the wrist action...like in Charles' banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 [font=arial]I just don't have as much free time as Papa Smurf, so I can't answer every single point, but I can probably answer a few. This one stood out to me though:[/font] [quote]That strictly physical change is not fundamental. It's altering a window-dressing. You're still taking all the time that you want to kill regular ranged and stationary enemies. There's still zero urgency. Plus, I sincerely doubt aiming with the bow is going to require such a huge change in how you move. Regular people won't be using their entire arms. Regular people will probably be barely using their forearms. The Wiimote is all about the wrist action...like in Charles' banner. [/quote] [font=arial]Even if you only use your wrists, the fact remains...control has been fundamentally changed. Even playing a game like Duck Hunt would be quite different if you wanted to use an analog stick, versus some sort of freehand control (whether that is a light gun or something else entirely). Moving your hand to aim is very different from only moving your thumb. Believe me, this will make a major difference to how the game feels and in turn, how the player approaches certain situations. At the end of the day though, this point can only really be expressed if you try the game yourself - I think the point will become clearer at that stage, if it isn't already. In terms of the fundamental aspect of it, well...game control is a fundamental of any game. Game control is what dictates how you interact with the environment or the character - changing that control equates to changing one fundamental element of the game.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 [quote name='Charles']Rather, the conflict is whether the Wii TP is enough to justify the purchase of an entirely new system when you could theoretically play the same game on your current system. Is it worth spending $300 for the Wii enhanced port? Are the enhancements really that significant? Of course the answer is subjective, but that is the source of concern there unless you just have plenty of money to throw around.[/quote][color=#4B0082]It seemed to me that Alex was arguing that the Wii version is pointless and not worth buying under any circumstances. That was the impression I'd been getting, and I don't recall him ever making any distinctions. That's mainly what I take issue with.[/color] [quote name='Charles']That keeps getting repeated here, but let's lay the cards on the table. It is obvious that Nintendo did not have a killer app ready for the Wii launch. There is no Mario game. There is no Super Smash Bros. Heck, there is no Wario Ware. Most of the games available at launch are mini games or extremely questionable in terms of quality. So, Nintendo took a highly anticipated Gamecube game, enhanced it slightly, slapped a Wii sticker on it and strategically delayed the Cube version. The Wii TP is the Wii launch. No one is buying the Wii at launch for other games because there aren't any worth noting. Just like at most launches. The PS3 is in the same situation and it really makes me appreciate what MS did.[/quote][color=#4B0082]From what I've been reading, Red Steel is expected to do fairly well. But this is beside the point. See, my argument has never focused on the initial launch only; what's available at launch is irrelevant. My point is that, if someone buys a Wii for whatever reason, on launch day or not, Wii-TP will be worth purchasing instead of GCN-TP. (Again, assuming you're interested in the new control scheme.) That's all there is to it.[/color] [quote name='Charles']Eh, generally speaking, a real Wii Zelda will come along eventually that will make better use of the Wiimote because it will be designed for the Wii from the ground up. That should be a fact and I don't even think it's worth discussing too much right now. Yet, that is the frame of reference he is using in comparison to the Wii port. Of course we should not assume any specifics but some assumptions are pretty darn safe. Because Nintendo chose to launch a system that entirely rests on its ability to offer unique controls, it is the right of the consumer to have high expectations. Nintendo is releasing a system that is more or less and Xbox with better textures and less shaders and charging $250 for it, so we should be making idealistic aspirations and expecting advanced use of the controller. If I'm not getting that I may as well be playing my DS instead.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You're right, it is reasonable to expect the first real Wii Zelda to make more and better use of the controller than Wii-TP. But arguing from assumption is still bad form. My main point beneath all that was still that you can't reasonably compare TP to the first real Wii Zelda in an argument over whether Wii-TP is worth buying. What you should be comparing it to is GCN-TP because that's your substitute for Wii-TP, not the next Zelda. The next Zelda won't be out for quite a while, but the two versions of TP are being released within about a month of each other. Or in other words, you can't substitute the next Zelda for Wii-TP--and therefore the comparison is moot--but you can substitute GCN-TP for Wii-TP.[/color] [quote name='Charles']The controls are fun, I'm sure. But remember what I said earlier--Nintendo is asking us to pay $250 to gain access to them. Because that is the case, we should put them under critical scrutiny. The Wii launch is Zelda. Sure there will be some Virtual Console games and I can check the weather, but what else is there, immediately? This is the holiday season and money becomes an issue especially during this time of year. No other Wii game screams "must-have." Again, no Xbox 360 games did at launch and no PS3 games do either.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Not quite. Nintendo is asking us to pay $250 for a Wii and everything you can do with that hardware. (And don't forget Wii Sports.) Initially it will be like you're paying $250 extra for nothing but the control changes, yes, but that isn't really the case. As soon as you start using your Wii for other things, be they other games, web browsing, or the news/weather features, you start spreading out that $250 cost. What you're really paying for, then, are the control changes, the Wii's standard features, Wii Sports, and the ability to play other Wii and virtual console games. As for the rest of the paragraph there, well, that really comes down to personal taste. And I've never argued that Wii-TP is, without exception, worth buying a Wii for. I myself wouldn't buy a Wii and Wii-TP at launch if I weren't reasonably sure there would be other games I'd buy as well before the first price drop, so I definitely realize that not everyone will be willing to buy a Wii until they can get more than just Wii-TP with it.[/color] [quote name='Charles']But yet, all of us here can admit that the controls in the Wii version will be pretty nifty but Zelda is not going to be the Wii's Nintendogs; it is not going to be the game that crosses the threshold and truly takes advantage of the system. In that sense, I see why some would give the Wii TP a lukewarm reception; they are looking for an immediate validation for their investment. But, you rarely find that at a launch for any system.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Exactly. I never expected Wii-TP to be an awesome Wii game; I expected it to be an awesome GCN game that takes advantage of some of the Wii's features.[/color] [quote name='Charles']Again, money. Perhaps you have a money tree in your back yard, I don't know. But, like I established earlier, Zelda is really the only title of significance releasing at launch. Perhaps it will not stop you from enjoying what motion control there is but I myself even wonder if the controls are worth all that money. Look at it from a consumer standpoint. $250 is a good portion of what it will take to buy an Xbox 360, which has several quality titles and Gears of War launching around the same time as Wii. There's also the shroud of the Gamecube version which plenty of people have already preordered. Wii will pick up momentum in due time but right out of the gate it is an alternative. When the same game is coming out on a pre-existing system, the Wii is not much of an alternative unless those controls make it one.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Well, as I've been saying all along, don't buy it if the investment isn't worth it to you. It's not like I'm trying to twist anyone's arm here. But for those of us who [i]will[/i] be buying Wii-TP there's no reason we shouldn't enjoy what motion sensor control there is.[/color] [quote name='Charles']They probably should have just cancelled the Gamecube version, which would have ended the conflict right there. Nintendo is competing with themselves and it is just a dumb, sloppy move.[/quote][color=#4B0082]I think that would only hurt them more. They'd been saying for years that the game would be released on the GCN and going back on that would be much worse than any delay. As it is, anyone with a GCN can still play the game, and anyone with a Wii has the option of using the new controls. I doubt the actual number of copies sold will be affected much this way, and while yes, getting Wiis into people's homes is important, I have to wonder if losing a big chunk of TP sales wouldn't do more damage than making TP Wii-exclusive would help.[/color] [quote=Charles]Nice try at spinning this, but you should have left that in your economics class. lol The Wii is the investment here and the cost is never really going to pan out because you're going to keep spending more. The satisfaction of the investment can only be measured in how much enjoyment you are getting out of the system. In the end, you're going to just keep spending money. The issue here is when exactly is it going to be worth spending that money. I don't think anyone is saying that Twilight Princess is a $300 game period. I don't think Alex or anyone else plans on buying a Wii for one game alone. In the context of the holiday season, however, the price of admission for Wii TP is $250 dollars. Again, whether that price is worth it or not is subjective, but people are going to have to consider whether it is worth paying $300 dollars to play Wii TP now, or saving money during the holidays by paying for the Gamecube version and waiting for exclusive killer apps to launch for the Wii.[/quote][color=#4B0082]I'm not trying to spin anything here, this is just how averages work. lol You buy a Wii and one game, your average cost per game is $300 ($250 + $50 = $300). You buy a Wii and two games, your average cost per game is $175 ($150/2 + $50 = $175). You buy three games and your average cost per game is $133.33 ($250/3 + $50 = $133.33). And so on. That initial $250 Wii allows you to play many games, not just one, so as you buy more games the total cost per game decreases as the $250 is split up between each game. Another way to get the average cost per game is to add up the costs of the hardware and all games, then divide that amount by the number of games. (($250 + $50 + $50 + $50)/3 = $400/3 = $133.33) You do bring up a valid point regarding limited money during the holiday season, but we already covered that earlier. Getting a Wii and Wii-TP at launch or at any other time is going to be worth it to some and not to others, for a variety of reasons, so you can't objectively say it is or isn't worth it.[/color] [quote name='Charles']You know, I'm not one for economics classes, but the DS launched with nothing I was interested in and when the games I was interested in did finally release, the system had dropped in price, saving me money. Go figure. I don't think that Wii will be as bad a case as the DS was though and we should be seeing more interesting games in a more timely fashion, at least.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You kind of hit a soft spot with this one. I ended up getting burned on my DS when I bought it only three months before the first price drop, with Mario 64 DS as my only game at the time. (Not to mention they also started packing Mario 64 in with the system.) But that was mostly due to Mario 64 DS turning out not to be worth the purchase for me; the controls didn't translate nearly as well to the touch screen as I thought they would. If I'd been satisfied with the game itself, though, I wouldn't have had much regret. But yes, I'm also more confident in the Wii delivering before the first price drop. And if not I'm going to be getting a few old favorites on the virtual console to keep me occupied in the mean time anyway. The first one I buy is going to be the real Super Mario 64. :p[/color] [quote name='Charles']I never buy a system until I can actually play those games.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Zelda, Mario, Metroid, and Smash Bros. have never led me astray yet.[/color] [quote name='Charles']Once again it is a $50 dollar game with a $250 admission ticket. If I am going to buy the system immediately and only have that one game to play on it for a while, it had better be a lot more enjoyable than the Gamecube version. Hopefully it is. Otherwise, there's no justification to jump right in.[/quote][color=#4B0082]That's exactly what I've been saying. If there's nothing else that interests you at launch, and you're not confident that there will be in the future, getting Wii-TP isn't a smart move. This isn't the Twilight Princess you're looking for. Move along.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Considering that Nintendo made the decision to rush TP for the Wii launch so they could have something remotely resembling a killer app, I have every right to be as hard on them as I am. They put themselves out there for scrutiny and critical examination when they announced a Wii port nine months before launch. That right there is reason enough to be harder on them than usual, because that was a bone-headed move. Also considering that WiiTP is a first-party Zelda title for a new system...the fact that we're only getting the basics is boring and just not exciting at all. It's also embarrassing, to be honest.[/quote][color=#4B0082]You've got every right to criticize Wii-TP for things you dislike about it. But you don't have the right to tell other people what they should and shouldn't be excited about, or how they should or shouldn't spend their money. That's what I'm getting at here; you seem to be acting like your personal opinion of Wii-TP is fact and applies to everyone.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']If your standards are that low (no offense, don't mean this to sound as mean as it does), then by all means, go for it. But it's still a carrot designed to boost Wii sales. The good stuff is coming later, just like the DS. Super Mario 64 DS was the carrot back then. WiiTP is the carrot now. Neither were/are true killer apps. Super Mario 64 on N64 was a killer app. Super Mario World was a killer app. Super Mario Bros was a killer app. Even New Super Mario Bros was a killer app for DS Lite.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Don't worry, I'm not not the type to take a forum argument [i]that[/i] seriously. My standards aren't low, however, and neither am I simply taking the bait, so to speak. Like I said, I'd be buying a Wii for numerous other games besides Wii-TP, almost certainly before the first price drop. And seeing as I'm on a limited budget and will only have enough money for one console either before or after the holidays, I might as well get a Wii and Wii-TP at launch. I'm confident that I have nothing to lose by buying it at launch, so why shouldn't I?[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Des, pointing to other games to try to broadly apply my point is a bad move, because WiiTP is not like other games. This isn't some regular development cycle of a game that's coming out in the middle of a console's life cycle. WiiTP, like Charles said, is the Wii launch. It was a late decision late in the development cycle that left little time to do anything substantial with the Wiimote features before WiiTP had to be on shelves. And because of that late decision, Nintendo painted themselves into a corner, so to speak: either delay WiiTP and lose pretty much Wii's launch, or release it with less than substantial Wiimote functionality and have gamers start questioning whether Wii is worth buying at launch, due to the gimmicky nature of its entire launch line-up. The most desirable option is never to announce a Wii version at all. This would have required significantly more planning ahead, however, because in addition to closely evaluating their options regarding WiiTP, they would have also had to make sure to have one or two killer apps at launch so they could fill the gap of WiiTP, as well as making sure the non-killer apps in the launch line-up make the system worth buying.[/quote][color=#4B0082]In the context of my argument the comparison is valid. The situation is exactly the same as with any other game in that there isn't enough time to include everything they'd like to. Thus, expecting everything you'd like is unrealistic. Simple as that. What you're getting into here is a bit beyond what I've been arguing, though. I don't presume to know what's best for Nintendo, or whether Wii-TP will help or hurt them in the long run. I may be able to make some slightly educated guesses, but I'm no expert. (And I kind of doubt you know much better than I do, but whatever.) So I can't really say anything either way about whether releasing Wii-TP is a good or bad move on Nintendo's part. But my point was that, as someone who's playing the games, getting Wii-TP as it is is better than nothing. Sure, it may not take full advantage of the controller, but you said yourself that most of the other games are gimmicky as well, so how is Wii-TP any worse? So long as it's more fun than the GCN version it can be worth it.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']So why even buy at launch? 3/5 of those games aren't even coming until 2007, and we both know there are going to be major deals later on, probably even as early as Q2 next year...I'd imagine right in time for Metroid and/or Smash Bros Brawl. If you'd only be getting WiiTP at launch, why spend 300 right there? Realistically, what is so needed at launch that you couldn't get for better later? This is one of the questions I asked myself.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Again, arguing from assumption. You're assuming there will be a price drop or something before SSBB and the rest of the big titles are released, yet we have zero information to support that. Personally, I'd be really surprised if they dropped the price of the Wii so soon after launch, especially when it's already cheaper than both of the other consoles. So, if the price doesn't drop, I stand to gain the control changes in Wii-TP. If the price does drop I'll have lost maybe $50. I'm fairly confident that I'll be buying more than just Wii-TP before the first price drop, so that's a risk I'm willing to take.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']You made another mistake before that one. I'm not justifying anything by bashing WiiTP. I made the decision a while ago, and I went through a pretty bizarre decision process before arriving at said decision. Charles can confirm this. My reasoning I've been stating here came before my decision to pass on Wii until I can get my hands on Metroid. There's no justification, because it's only a justification if the thought process comes after the decision in question. Which it doesn't. So I'm not trying to justify anything for myself here.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Fair enough. But if that's not the case, then I have to ask, why [i]are[/i] you trying to dictate my preferences to me?[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Des, when have you known me to consider the very idea of an opinion, especially when I know I have a very clear and realistic view on a topic, and when I know that you agree with me in the first place?[/quote][color=#4B0082]Wait, let me get this straight. Just because an opinion is realistic and others agree with it, it's automatically an objective fact? Correct me if that's not what you meant (the above sentence is worded kind of confusingly), but sorry, no. Saying that SSBM's control scheme is perfect, or close to perfect, is an opinion because it cannot be proven or disproven. If you got a large enough sample group together to play SSBM you'd find people who would prefer and play better with alternate control schemes, just like some people use the C Stick for smash attacks and others don't. This would imply that there is no single best control scheme. On a related note, why do you think so many PC games allow you to map keys however you like? They acknowledge that there is no perfect control scheme so they let you customize it to your liking.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Careful, Des. I don't think it's the best way because I like that way best. I like that way best because it's the best way. It all comes down to efficiency. My assessment of the controller is a matter of efficiency before personal taste. And the GCN controller, as we have both illustrated, is the most efficient controller for Smash Bros.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Efficient does not equal perfect. Perfect means that the given control scheme is the best it can ever be, for everyone and without condition. Efficient simply means that the control scheme isn't any more complicated than it has to be.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']Are you kidding? You've mapped the C-stick controls to the motion sensor. Do your hands stay perfectly still the entire match? Does anyone's hands stay perfectly still the entire match? Smash Bros is a game that depends on precision and speed. All you need is one of the typical "oh holy crap" arm jerks and your character just got smashed out of the arena because no matter what those hard, fast movements would be, they just totally interrupted your attack sequence. You just helped prove my point, Des: It is impossible for the Wiimote to handle Smash Bros with the same type of precision and accuracy in a typical, fast and heated match as we see with the GCN controller.[/quote][color=#4B0082]No, my hands don't remain perfectly still while playing SSBM. But they certainly don't make fast, sudden movements either. I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but if yours do, I think you need to work on your scare reflex. lol Also, if the developers were smart about it, they'd let you disable the feature or remap it as you wish, maybe even set the sensitivity yourself. Even in SSBM the C stick is completely unnecessary and I never use it.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']The only reason your your accuracy and weapon proficiency matters is because of how blazing fast Time Crisis requires you to be...since it's a lightgun game.[/quote][color=#4B0082]I'm starting to wonder if you're purposely dodging the point here. Never did I say your accuracy matters; that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. The point is that [i]aiming with a gun is a different experience than using a joystick[/i].[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']The experience itself will only be different if the game itself is changed.[/quote][color=#4B0082]This is where you're wrong. Dictionary.com defines "experience" as, "1. a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something". [i]Personally,[/i] as in you yourself, not the character in the game. What happens on screen in the game is not the whole experience; it also includes your physical actions taken in interacting with the game. Thus, aiming a lightgun or the Wii remote is a different experience than using a joystick. Seriously, is this really that hard to understand? The entire philosphy behind the Wii is built on this premise. The motion sensors and pointers are supposed to be a new, [i]different,[/i] and easier ways to interact with--i.e. experience--games.[/color] [quote name='Papa Smurf']That strictly physical change is not fundamental. It's altering a window-dressing. You're still taking all the time that you want to kill regular ranged and stationary enemies. There's still zero urgency. Plus, I sincerely doubt aiming with the bow is going to require such a huge change in how you move. Regular people won't be using their entire arms. Regular people will probably be barely using their forearms. The Wiimote is all about the wrist action...like in Charles' banner.[/quote][color=#4B0082]So you're saying a change in the way you interact with the game isn't a fundamental change, yet increasing the speed of enemies is? That's a seriously incorrect use of the word "fundamental." [url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fundamental][u]fundamental[/u][/url] "1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: [i]fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.[/i]" A change in the play control, going from a joystick to pointer control, is a fundamental change. That is, it changes the way you control the game from the ground up. The joystick and the pointer have nothing in common other than that they're both being used to aim. A change in the speed of enemies is not a fundamental change. They're the same enemies, they simply move faster. That's tweaking a few variables in what is otherwise the same basic enemy.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [quote name='James']I just don't have as much free time as Papa Smurf, so I can't answer every single point, but I can probably answer a few.[/quote] Um, James, it's the other way around. I don't have as much free time as you do. Your number of posts in this thread is [b]THREE TIMES[/b] the number of mine. You've got [b]30[/b], bested only by Desbreko at 34, while I'm clocking it at [b]11[/b], including this reply right here. My posts in this thread have been days apart on occasion. I had two posts the entire weekend. You were replying within seconds of new posts. Lack of free time was obviously never an issue for you previously, and I don't see why it would suddenly become an issue now. Plus, I reply occasionally at 4:00 am due to insomnia, and my previous reply was an on-and-off thing over the weekend when I found a few spare minutes here and there, so it?s not as if I had the luxury of sitting around for five or six hours to reply. And anyway, your method of reply should be the same as before: sniping in one or two little remarks about how I have an "inaccurate view" or that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm looking to expose something sinister, or that I'm being unfair, or whatever other lame and misguided accusations you've been trying to throw at me and never actually addressing my points in any real, meaningful way. [quote name='James']Game control is what dictates how you interact with the environment or the character - changing that control equates to changing one fundamental element of the game.[/quote] [quote=Desbreko]I'm starting to wonder if you're purposely dodging the point here. Never did I say your accuracy matters; that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. The point is that aiming with a gun is a different experience than using a joystick. This is where you're wrong. Dictionary.com defines "experience" as, "1. a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something". Personally, as in you yourself, not the character in the game. What happens on screen in the game is not the whole experience; it also includes your physical actions taken in interacting with the game. Thus, aiming a lightgun or the Wii remote is a different experience than using a joystick. fundamental "1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure." [center] A change in the play control, going from a joystick to pointer control, is a fundamental change. That is, it changes the way you control the game from the ground up. The joystick and the pointer have nothing in common other than that they're both being used to aim.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.ntsc-uk.com/reviews/nds/PhoenixWrightGyakutenSaiban/03.jpg[/img] [/center] It's not only the game control in the physical sense that dictates how one interacts with the environment or character. In order for a game control to truly dictate how you interact with the game, the game itself--the programming--must be altered to take advantage of that physical game control. Adding in a joystick to a game that formerly used the D-pad, for example, does not guarantee a different play experience, nor does it automatically equate to a change of one fundamental element of the game, because said fundamental element of the game--the play control--goes both ways: the physical and the game's design itself. That is why Super Mario 64 DS was so terrible; the game's design itself had not been sufficiently altered to support the touch screen controls (and plus it was a lame idea to port it over to begin with, because there was no way in hell to make the touch screen work for that game). This is why a game like Duck Hunt or Time Crisis will not undergo fundamental changes if you only try to play with a joystick; the game design itself still needs to be re-worked so that the fundamental elements of play control are changed. It?s why using a Wiimote instead of a joystick is only a window-dressing change instead of a fundamental change to the play control. If the game itself remains unchanged, you might as well be playing with a dildo or a Boston Terrier, because holding a different item for the physical controller is a very small part of the gameplay experience, and for the ?experience? (?a particular instance of personally encountering or undergoing something?) to change, there must be a greater change than just a different controller shell. And the controller shell is all that?s been changed in this case. In fact, Desbreko pointing to that definition of ?experience? hurts his case more than he thinks it helps. Because how are you personally encountering or undergoing something by aiming with the Wiimote? You?re only holding a different item with which to aim a targeting reticle. You aren?t changing; you haven?t undergone any profound gamer developments. The game isn?t changing; you might as well still be using a joystick to aim if there are not significant changes made to the game design. The item you use to aim is different, yes. But that sure as hell is NOT a fundamental change to play control. It?s a window-dressing. The controller itself has always played second fiddle, so to speak, to game design. Game experiences have changed in the past when the game has been changed along with the controller. Only then was there a fundamental change to play control. Examples include Super Mario Bros, Super Mario 64, and even Smash Bros Melee. In Super Mario Bros, using a D-pad instead of the Atari joysticks would have been irrelevant had the game not been designed to take advantage of the new precision of the D-pad. It would be virtually impossible to do a speed-run in SMB with the Atari joysticks, because SMB is a game about speed and precision, which is precisely what the D-pad was used and designed for. There was a fundamental change to play control because a game like SMB was designed to take full advantage of the D-pad. In Super Mario 64, going from the D-pad to a joystick wouldn?t have mattered had you not been entering full 3D space. It wouldn?t have mattered had the game simply been treated as a 3D version of the 2D Mario games. Had Mario not been programmed with movement sensitivity and could run or walk depending on how much you pushed the joystick, you would not have had a fundamental change to play control. It?s not as huge an example as the Mario Bros games are, but Smash Bros Melee is yet another game where there were fundamental changes to play control because the game took advantage of certain aspects of the GCN controller. The shoulder button pressure sensitivity, for example, would not have provided a fundamental change to play control had HAL not introduced the new shield system; the new shield system does have a profound impact on combat, as well, because you need to decide which strength and duration of your shield will be best for the situation. The nubby C-stick would not have provided a fundamental change to play control had HAL not realized its potential for quick smash attacks. Even something as simple as how the B, A, and X/Y buttons are arranged, as well. An oversized A button surrounded by kidney-shaped X and Y buttons would never have provided a fundamental change to play control if HAL hadn?t mapped conventional attacks to A and the jump function to X/Y. And that, however insignificant it may seem, is tremendously important when it comes to play control and gameplay. Because HAL built portions of the game around that new controller layout, certain acrobatic characters now could perform short, quick hops to lead into a spike, and anyone who?s had some time playing Marth or Sheik knows how much that?s changed the flow of the game?how much of a fundamental change to play control that was. Those are all alterations that change both the play control and the gameplay on a fundamental level, because the game design reflects developer attention. In WiiTP so far, however, the alterations are NOT changing the play control or gameplay on a fundamental level. All that?s happening is instead of aiming and shooting with the joystick, you?re using the Wiimote. The fundamental play control system is still identical, however. Fundamental change to play control would be if we needed to draw the bow string by pulling the Wiimote back to our jaw bone. If the game was re-programmed to recognize just how far we pull the Wiimote back in order to determine how far and fast the arrow will move, THAT is a fundamental change to play control. That would be something with the significance of Super Mario 64. Simply slapping a lightgun or Wiimote in your hand to replace a joystick is never going to be the end-all, be-all of fundamentally changing or changing the fundamentals of play control. The play control fundamentally changes because of the game design changing. And the controller changing is only a fundamental change to play control if the game design is changed to reflect the introduction of that new controller (see Super Mario 64). And quite honestly, we aren?t seeing changes to the game design when it comes to WiiTP?s Wiimote functions. We?re still doing the same thing in terms of gameplay. Shooting a bow hasn?t fundamentally changed yet. Attacking with the sword hasn?t fundamentally changed yet. All that?s changed is what we?re holding in our hands. How we?re physically interacting is changing. But not anything more than that. Fundamental changes to play control always have and always will depend on whether the game design itself reflects a new controller. [quote]So you're saying a change in the way you interact with the game isn't a fundamental change, yet increasing the speed of enemies is? That's a seriously incorrect use of the word "fundamental." A change in the speed of enemies is not a fundamental change. They're the same enemies, they simply move faster. That's tweaking a few variables in what is otherwise the same basic enemy.[/quote] As if putting a Wiimote in your hand instead of a joystick without significantly changing the game design to reflect that new controller is a correct use of the word ?fundamental?? lol. Come on, Desi, be sensible here. If the speed of the enemies is altered for a new controller (which is what I?ve been talking about all along) then it absolutely is a fundamental change. Do you think it wouldn?t be a fundamental change if they altered the speed of the enemies in Time Crisis when adjusting the game for use with a joystick or home console lightguns? That?s a case of the game design reflecting a new or different controller. [quote] The entire philosophy behind the Wii is built on this premise. The motion sensors and pointers are supposed to be a new, different, and easier ways to interact with--i.e. experience--games.[/quote] The philosophy behind Wii is largely POTENTIAL right now. You CAN do a lot of neat things with the controller. The IDEA behind the controller is potentially revolutionary. The GOAL of the Wiimote is radically different. But the EXPERIENCE of using the Wiimote depends on what the games are designed to do, on how the games are designed to expand gameplay and play control options to utilize the potential, the idea, and the goal of the Wiimote. WiiTP is not such a game. [quote name='Desbreko']It seemed to me that Alex was arguing that the Wii version is pointless and not worth buying under any circumstances. That was the impression I'd been getting, and I don't recall him ever making any distinctions. That's mainly what I take issue with.[/quote] When I?ve been talking about how you?re required to spend 300+ dollars to get to play with three or four piddly little Wiimote features? 300 dollars is the price to play WiiTP, Desi. If they?d included WiiTP as the pack-in game (which would have made a hell of a lot of sense, and would have even been more earth-shattering), then WiiTP would definitely be worth buying/playing since the lack of Wiimote features wouldn?t be as troublesome due to being able to get the game and the system for 250. Had they forgone WiiTP as a pack-in, they at least should at least release it with a lower price in the 40 dollar range; that?s industry standard for expansions/ports anyway. I had thought I was being totally clear throughout this thread (and really, I was being totally clear). We?re being expected to spend 300 dollars to play one game for a few months until we get better games than we see at launch. The Wii modifications to TP are minor at best and certainly are not worth dropping 300+ to try. [quote]You've got every right to criticize Wii-TP for things you dislike about it. But you don't have the right to tell other people what they should and shouldn't be excited about, or how they should or shouldn't spend their money. That's what I'm getting at here; you seem to be acting like your personal opinion of Wii-TP is fact and applies to everyone.[/quote] Des, do you look at the launch list and see anything else worth buying? Do you think Nintendo does? I certainly doubt that they do, because otherwise we wouldn?t be getting WiiTP as a rush-job port with a sole purpose of padding the launch line-up. The Wiimote features are minimal at best and we?re being expected to pay 300 dollars for them. That is nothing to be excited about. We don?t see people going ?Hot dog! I?m gonna pay 300 dollars to use a pointer wand thing to do stuff I can easily do with a joystick! Wheee doggy!? Why don?t we see that? Because people don?t get excited (in a good way) about stupid, exorbitant, quasi-price-gouging. And for 300 dollars, you?re only getting the GCN version of TP plus nondiscriminatory pre-canned sword attacks, an aiming system that hasn?t changed, and a weird defensive/offensive maneuver that had tons more potential than we see in WiiTP. Why are you excited about that? [quote]neither am I simply taking the bait, so to speak.[/quote] Uh, Desbreko?you?re paying 300 dollars on launch day because the only game you want to play is the exact game that Nintendo ported over to Wii to leverage Wii sales on launch day. You totally took the bait. lol [quote]Like I said, I'd be buying a Wii for numerous other games besides Wii-TP[/quote] And those ?numerous other games? are TBA 2007. Why get the Wii now? [quote]I'm confident that I have nothing to lose by buying it at launch, so why shouldn't I?[/quote] Because despite whatever confidence you may have, the system and games are still an untested technology. You and I both know there are going to be months (I?d figure at least four) following release where all sorts of previously unrealized technical issues are going to be cropping up all across the country. That?s always happened and it always will happen with new consoles, new operating systems, new computers, video cards, TVs, etc. It is NEVER a good idea to buy a new technology upon release. Waiting half a year is usually a very smart thing to do because by that time, the company will have had time to address any bugs that have popped up between then and launch. Occasionally, like with the original Xbox, there were some nasty issues, too. I can recall two. One involved the power block inside the Xbox being prone to melting or explosion or something. The second issue had to do with the disc drive breaking down. Granted, Nintendo?s products are of a bit higher quality than Microsoft?s, but the Wii features a lot more components and complex machinations than even the GCN did, and relies on a previously untried motion sensor/pointer/gyroscope method of control. We read about a few glitches in the hands-on previews of Metroid, Marvel UA, and Red Steel (all Wiimote-related, by the way), and the Wiimote had some quirks in WiiTP. Those types of bugs and glitches won?t be totally ironed out before launch. My advice is to hold off if you?re able to, because you?ll have a much better chance of having a clean experience. [quote]In the context of my argument the comparison is valid. The situation is exactly the same as with any other game in that there isn't enough time to include everything they'd like to. Thus, expecting everything you'd like is unrealistic. Simple as that. [/quote] Even in the context of your argument, the ?I wish we could have included this? statement, your comparison is invalid because other games do not apply here, because my point deals exclusively with WiiTP, and your argument tries to broadly apply that point to other games. What you?re trying to say is totally incoherent and further represents the kind of broad, bland, basic and naïve viewpoint that is now obviously required to defend Nintendo here. Anyone can see that the only way you or I can look at Nintendo?s actions positively is if we put on blinders to everything that matters and just focus on one or two vague ideas or conceptual arguments that don?t translate well at all to any other context?and that barely hold up in this context, on top of that. [quote]What you're getting into here is a bit beyond what I've been arguing, though. I don't presume to know what's best for Nintendo, or whether Wii-TP will help or hurt them in the long run. I may be able to make some slightly educated guesses, but I'm no expert. (And I kind of doubt you know much better than I do, but whatever.) So I can't really say anything either way about whether releasing Wii-TP is a good or bad move on Nintendo's part.[/quote] Desi, how long have you and I been playing video games? We?ve got, what, 20+ years between the two of us? We?ve been on the ?frontlines,? as it were, when new consoles were released. We saw the reactions to certain revelations of the past two decades. Hell, WE had some of those reactions to those revelations and announcements. We as gamers have been the ones deciding which system succeeded and which ones failed miserably. We know and feel what analysts only see on a graph. And you and I both know that what Nintendo is doing here is absolutely stupid. You and I both know they had better alternatives. Just like you and I both know they should have stuck to their guns and ignored the Wii entirely when it came to Twilight Princess. Just like you and I both know they?re blowing their leg off here with a 12-gauge by giving these weird mixed messages with WiiTP, GCN TP, the systems, the release dates, the arbitrary ******** delays and so on. WiiTP, as it?s been handled by Nintendo with such an obvious lack of planning ahead and foresight in relation to both the port itself and their launch line-up for Wii, is absolutely a bad move on Nintendo?s part. You know that just as well as I do. [quote]But my point was that, as someone who's playing the games, getting Wii-TP as it is is better than nothing.[/quote] ?Better than nothing? is still a variation of the ****-to-**** comparison. You don?t make WiiTP look attractive at all by comparing it to nothing. [quote]Sure, it may not take full advantage of the controller, but you said yourself that most of the other games are gimmicky as well, so how is Wii-TP any worse?[/quote] Yeah, do you see me snapping up a Wii at launch? Most of the other games are gimmicky, definitely. But at least some of the other ports are far more well-developed in terms of Wiimote integration than WiiTP, ports like Madden 07, Marvel UA, and Far Cry Vengeance. [quote]Again, arguing from assumption. You're assuming there will be a price drop or something before SSBB and the rest of the big titles are released, yet we have zero information to support that. Personally, I'd be really surprised if they dropped the price of the Wii so soon after launch, especially when it's already cheaper than both of the other consoles.[/quote] Des, look. The Wii only has their actual killer apps coming out next year, in 2007. They?ve released their console too early at a price that is really too high for what the Wii is (a slightly more powerful GCN/Xbox). You can point to the web browsing, news and weather features all you want, but they?re worthless to a gaming console and their inclusion here contradicts Nintendo?s original philosophy of ?only gaming? anyway. I?m sure Charles will say something about this in his reply, but it deserves to be repeated: Nintendo is now doing the exact same thing it criticized its competitors for doing. They?ve released a console too early, with too high a price, with a complete lack of worthwhile launch titles, without a clear and defined focus, and with a now painfully diluted philosophy behind the console. 2007 is when Wii should be hitting its stride, if it follows the pattern of the DS. 2007 is when the truly attractive titles and the killer apps are coming. 2007 is when Nintendo needs to make a difference. Reggie has already said how Nintendo makes money on Wii immediately, so I can?t imagine why 250 is going to remain the price for very much longer. I?m expecting the price change announcement either a few months before or at E3 2007. It makes good business sense and it?s a solid move for everyone. [quote]So, if the price doesn't drop, I stand to gain the control changes in Wii-TP. If the price does drop I'll have lost maybe $50. I'm fairly confident that I'll be buying more than just Wii-TP before the first price drop, so that's a risk I'm willing to take.[/quote] Okay, how is it a gain? You still bought minor control changes for 300 dollars. And how will you be buying more than WiiTP before the first price drop? The games you listed previously are TBA 2007, and Final Fantasy Crystal Bearers doesn?t even have a tentative release date yet. [quote]Fair enough. But if that's not the case, then I have to ask, why are you trying to dictate my preferences to me?[/quote] One, because I originally was going to leave my views on the matter at the one or two sentences last week. And two, because since you?ve started explaining this, I?ve seen absolutely no solid, valid reasoning for buying a Wii now as opposed to waiting to see what happens over the next few months. Your defenses of Nintendo have been asinine and foolish, your reasons for wanting WiiTP aren?t reasons at all, and generally, I don?t believe you?ve thought any of this through. [quote]Wait, let me get this straight. Just because an opinion is realistic and others agree with it, it's automatically an objective fact?[/quote] Yes. Exactly. You and I are the only ones discussing this here, right? We both agree that SSBM?s controls are close to perfect. Therefore, for the purposes of our discussion here, it?s an objective fact that SSBM?s controls are just about perfect. And go ahead and take a survey. Ask a few hundred experienced Smash Bros players what they think of the controls in Melee. Even better, ask a few hundred competitive Smash Bros players and ask a few hundred casual Smash Bros players. You think it?s just an opinion that SSBM?s controls are damn near perfect and have very little room for improvement? If they weren?t tight as hell, precise, and damn near perfect, you simply would not see SSBM being played at such high levels of competitive play. And that?s the truth. [quote]On a related note, why do you think so many PC games allow you to map keys however you like? They acknowledge that there is no perfect control scheme so they let you customize it to your liking.[/quote] Re-map options or not, you?ll often find gamers enjoying the industry standard ASDW. I forget which game it was that first introduced that control layout, but obviously it is regarded as a standard that few games and gamers deviate from. [quote]Efficient does not equal perfect. Perfect means that the given control scheme is the best it can ever be, for everyone and without condition. Efficient simply means that the control scheme isn't any more complicated than it has to be.[/quote] You don?t have the counter you think you do. Re-read what I said. I?m talking about efficiency in a discussion comparing the GCN controller to the Wiimote. I never said that the GCN controller is simply ?efficient? for Smash Bros. I said it was the ?MOST efficient? out of the two controllers, though this was implied the entire time. Now, since efficiency operates on a scale, you have less efficient controls and more efficient controls. And sometimes, you have the MOST efficient controls, like the GCN controller for SSBM. Note MOST efficient. And note I?ve been saying SSBM?s controls on the GCN controller are ?damn near perfect? and ?generally close to perfect.? Nowhere did I ever state the controls were perfect, and nowhere did I ever state that being efficient was being perfect. What I?ve stated is that the GCN controller is the ?most efficient? and that the controls in SSBM are ?damn near perfect,? the latter statement being one you agreed with from the start. [quote]No, my hands don't remain perfectly still while playing SSBM. But they certainly don't make fast, sudden movements either. I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but if yours do, I think you need to work on your scare reflex. Lol[/quote] We all jump a bit here and there with the regular GCN controllers. But do you really expect your hands to stay that still when you?re doing a smash attack with the joystick and the A button on the Wiimote? Remember that smashing with the GCN controller is much more stable than smashing would be with the Wiimote, since the controller is basically a nunchuck. Mapping anything to the motion sensor for a fighting game is a bad idea, especially when a flick of the wrist is usually all that?s required for the Wiimote to register action. [quote]Also, if the developers were smart about it, they'd let you disable the feature or remap it as you wish, maybe even set the sensitivity yourself.[/quote] If you?re going to be disabling it or lowering the sensitivity?why even bother with Wiimote functionality in the first place? Seems to me that disabling the motion sensor would defeat the purpose of ever bringing the game control to the Wiimote. See what?s happening here, Desbreko? Despite your best efforts in trying to counter my point regarding how amazing and damn near perfect the GCN controller is for Smash Bros, despite your best efforts to portray me as some arrogant, insensitive and opinionated authoritarian prick, despite your best efforts to provide examples of alternate control schemes?it all failed miserably, dude. [quote]Even in SSBM the C stick is completely unnecessary and I never use it.[/quote] It?s used for smash training for those new to the game, so they are able to get the feel of what a smash attack feels like. Once the player becomes proficient, however, it acts more as combo augmentation and edge-guards. I use it on occasion. It has its uses. [center]This post was brought to you by the letters S, T, F, and U, and: [img]http://blog.kir.com/archives/Nuclear_explosion_22.jpg[/img] [/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [quote]And anyway, your method of reply should be the same as before: sniping in one or two little remarks about how I have an "inaccurate view" or that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm looking to expose something sinister, or that I'm being unfair, or whatever other lame and misguided accusations you've been trying to throw at me and never actually addressing my points in any real, meaningful way. [/quote] [font=arial]I'll only say this once. [i]Do not[/i] accuse me of "sniping" or not addressing your points. You have done that to me consistently throughout this thread. Secondly, you [i]have[/i] been attempting to spin everything in a negative direction due to your personal view; there's a lot of justification going on here, lol. Moreover...you have frequently been guilty of either not addressing my points, or running off on vague tangents that don't actually take issue with any of the fundamental points I have been making. This is not a good style of debate and it's [i]certainly[/i] not a good idea to go on the offensive about it with me, lol. As far as telling you that you don't know what you're talking about...yes, I've corrected you about some of your misconceptions related to game development process. In some cases there [i]were[/i] misconceptions that I corrected. It was necessary to make those corrections in order to ensure that the conversation was being based on accurate information - I'm not going to have a debate that isn't grounded on a factual basis. It's as simple as that. And to be serious, there's only so much hair-splitting and debating over word definitions that one can do before the entire thread stagnates and moves away from its original purpose - this is especially true when the original comments are deliberately or accidentally misinterpreted on a regular basis. I honestly suggest going back and re-reading my posts. If I've somehow not made something clear, I am more than happy to clarify my position on anything I've said. But when you constantly bring up red-herrings and quotes that are taken out of context...it's a consistent demonstration of poor form. You aren't in a position to accuse anyone else of that, I assure you. You're more than welcome to discuss the issues at hand, but those kind of tactics just aren't welcome - and if you are going to continue to use them, you'll be excluded from the thread.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [quote name='James']I'll only say this once. Do not accuse me of "sniping" or not addressing your points. You have done that to me consistently throughout this thread.[/quote] Who's accusing? James, as far as I can tell, you have no points anymore. lol [quote]Secondly, you have been attempting to spin everything in a negative direction due to your personal view; there's a lot of justification going on here, lol.[/quote] James, you're making a terrible mistake here, because there is zero justification going on here, and Charles can most certainly attest to that, considering gaming conversations happen with him, in-person, more than anyone I know. [quote]Moreover...you have frequently been guilty of either not addressing my points, or running off on vague tangents that don't actually take issue with any of the fundamental points I have been making.[/quote] That's the thing, James. You haven't been making any points for a while now. You kept trying to come back to "change is change." That got killed pretty quickly when one points to the types of changes here. You've tried to say I'm arguing semantics when clearly you've just been ignoring critically important distinctions for whatever reason. You said I was taking quotes out of context, and then I showed you how the context is no different today. You told me about how it was so plausible to assume a "significantly more powerful system" and then I produced the quotes and interviews from Iwata & CO that directly contradict any such assumptions. You said that WiiTP is being treated better than other ports, but that's a complete lie by reading about three other ports and I listed them and the improvements (Madden 07, Marvel UA, and Far Cry). You tried to come back to how the Wiimote is a fundamental change to play control. That just got killed with nails in the coffin, and I provided examples of undeniable fundamental changes to play control to support what I was saying, and showed the major differences between the true and most important fundamental play control changes of the past twenty years (SMB and Super Mario 64 in particular) and what WiiTP is shaping up to be. And yet I've not been addressing your fundamental points? I think even Desbreko can see that I have. lol EDIT: [quote name='James']I actually didn't keep coming back to "change is change". This is an example of misinterpretation.[/quote] Oh really? [quote name='James']the point is that most games go through fundamental changes late in the development cycle. These changes are always different, but they regularly happen.[/quote] [quote name='Papa Smurf']So "change is change"[/quote] [quote name='James']Basically, yep.[/quote] I'm not taking anything out of context, by the way. And that quote progression proves that I've been understanding your point from the beginning. [quote]I made a clear distinction about the types of change we were discussing...I then made a general point about change. Not at all. Again, re-read my comments - I have frequently been making clear distinctions that you have been ignoring. I even attached examples to those distinctions.[/quote] The phrase you've been particularly fond of using is "these types of changes." That phrase establishes a common ground between the subjects. You've used "major changes" quite frequently, as well, again with the obvious goal of showing how major changes occur throughout development, and obviously trying to show that the changes in WiiTP are the "industry norm." I did not misinterpret anything. lol. According to what you've been saying, the changes in WiiTP are the regular stuff we see in any development cycle, only because the changes in WiiTP can be considered "major changes." I understand your point just fine. I obviously have been paying attention to your point. Otherwise I wouldn't remember jack about it. The problem with your point is not that you think I'm misinterpreting it. The problem with your point is that it's broad, vague, and does not survive scrutiny. None of the examples you attached do anything to help the point you're making--or they only support your point in that broad, vague sense that most people never find respectable in a critical analysis. Throughout the thread, you've said how it's perfectly appropriate, reasonable, usual, and normal that games undergo significant changes late in development cycles. But if you were to compare WiiTP to something like Prey, you see that the only similarity there is major change and nothing beyond that. The reasons for altering WiiTP are totally different. The timeframe in which the decision was made was much, much shorter. The respective contexts of those two games were as different as night and day. With Prey, the original game was a six-year-old FPS started in the mid to late 90s from 3D Realms, a dev house whose only true "claim to fame" is Duke Nukem 3D, and who have been working on Duke Nukem Forever for forever now. The reasons for changing that game were that it was totally archaic by any recent standards. There was no new system launching. There was no lack of foresight. There was no need to have something worthwhile as a launch title for a soon-to-be-released system that was giving the consumer total gimmicks in the launch line-up. That was not the case with WiiTP. The only reason we had any changes at all was because Nintendo needed a killer app launch title. They had nine months to re-do a handful of parts of the control scheme. They only had six months to re-do the sword control. And based on what we've seen, those six to nine months were nowhere near long enough. Nondiscriminatory, pre-canned sword attacks are evidence of that. [quote]The context is different today. We were talking about dumping existing code and building a new game for a new system.[/quote] Yes, and as Iwata's comments show, believing that Revolution was going to be "significantly more powerful" (or even a dramatic leap in terms of power that would necessitate a total scrapping of existing code) was a stupid assumption to make in the first place. Nintendo was never going for "more power." They were going for a different control scheme. Revolution was never going to be more powerful enough to where scrapping an existing game was going to be an option at all. [quote]This was also being said at a time when specifications were unknown - we were told they would be modest in comparison to other new platforms, but nobody knew we were dealing with what is essentially a modified GameCube.[/quote] You can read the quotes I referenced and see exactly how you're wrong. Anyone can read the quotes I referenced and see exactly why nobody in their right mind could have expected "significantly more powerful" than the GCN when it came to Revolution. 2-3 times more powerful turned out to be exactly that: a modified GCN. Iwata's comments point to major differences in the controller, not the hardware. Face it, James. You made a boo-boo. We all make boo-boos. And even as you made a boo-boo, Nintendo obviously still doesn't give a **** about the GCN TP anymore, and have obviously been giving WiiTP preferential treatment. To them, GCN TP might as well not even exist. And thus, it's been moved to the Wii. We all know they're only still releasing GCN TP just to save face with the consumer. You know this to be true. [quote]It is being treated better than other ports in general, lol. I never said it was being treated better than those specific games - I was referring to ports in general.[/quote] Yes, I'm aware of that. Comparing it to other ports (in the Wii launch line-up?) is a ****-to-**** comparison, however, and does nothing to improve the perception of WiiTP. Comparing it to other ports to show how good WiiTP is is a weak comparison to make in the first place. [quote]As far as how it compares to those games in terms of porting...I think it's still on the same level. So there's no issue there whatsoever.[/quote] Marvel UA has completely discriminatory motion sensing for combat. You do a slight jiggle with the Wiimote and you're throwing regular melee attacks. Wide sweep and you're tripping your target. Swing the Wiimote up and it's an uppercut. Swing the Wiimote down and you just smashed your target to the floor. Hold B and those directions become special attacks. Tilting the Wiimote controls the camera's angle. In Madden 07, you control the distance and angle of the kicks depending on how hard and fast you swing and how much tilt you have on the Wiimote. Passing, you control the pass. On defense, you can wave the entire controller (Wiimote+nunchuck) up in the air to try to swat the ball down. While running the ball, jukes are handled by jolting the nunchuck back and forth, as the nunchuck represents your legs. Straight-arming is performed by jolting the Wiimote to the sides, and you will straight-arm on the proper side. A right jolt is a right-armed straight-arm. Left jolt is a left-armed straight-arm. WiiTP has nondiscriminatory, pre-canned attack swings and an aiming system that hasn't changed. It's not on the same level at all, James. WiiTP is getting mediocre treatment compared to Marvel UA and Madden 07...two third-party launch title ports...and that's totally obvious. Nintendo is being shown-up for their own new system's launch line-up by third-party developers based in NEW JERSEY. [quote]This has nothing to do with how Super Mario 64 or any game impacts on game control in general - it has nothing to do with making comparisons to control changes over the last twenty years.[/quote] We're talking about [b]fundamental changes to play control[/b]. I provided examples of true fundamental changes to play control. I should have included Ocarina of Time, now that I think about it. The game design introduced what became a staple of most third-person action/adventure games that followed: Z-targeting and lock-on. The game design changed to reflect the move to a full 3D world, it changed to reflect the N64 joystick (with pressure sensitivity), and it even changed to reflect the use of the Rumble Pak (Stone of Agony shaped like the Rumble Pak, anyone?). All of that fundamentally changed gameplay, for both the Zelda franchise and the industry in general. My examples are far from redundant. And that is very clear, James. Nintendo's own history is [b]completely stacked against[/b] the "WiiTP's sword Wiimote is a fundamental change to play control" statement. If I'm so wrong and misguided, you should have no problem at all going in there point-by-point and destroying my entire analysis. It'll be easy if my argument is as full of holes as you say it is, or if my examples are as redundant as your blanket conclusion says. [quote]So, seriously...something is going wrong there. You either need to read our posts more carefully, or you need to make sure that you're picking up on the right points.[/quote] Oh, no, I think I'm definitely picking up on the right points here. If I weren't, it'd be a hell of a lot easier for you to correct me, and you'd be able to do it without such roundabout and dodgy "it's redundant because nobody else mentioned it" kinds of tactics, when the points in question are solid, valid, and totally relevant to the focus of the discussion. [quote]I'm honestly not going to keep going over this. Either move on with the discussion or don't post at all - both Desbreko and myself are tired of the constant tangents and misinterpretations. Moving on with the discussion and keeping the thread on track are not an option, so this part of the discussion ends here. lol[/QUOTE] So what other discussion could there be? There haven't been any new hands-on previews in weeks. How could the thread stay on track when there's no discernible track to begin with until WiiTP is released in November? This discussion is the only thing keeping this thread active right now. And remember! I would have been perfectly, perfectly content to have left my views on the matter at those one or two sentences a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [quote]That's the thing, James. You haven't been making any points for a while now. You kept trying to come back to "change is change." That got killed pretty quickly when one points to the types of changes here. [/quote] [font=arial]I actually didn't keep coming back to "change is change". This is an example of misinterpretation. I made a clear distinction about the types of change we were discussing...I then made a general point about change. This quote only demonstrates that you either ignored my comments, or you glossed over them in your rush to respond.[/font] [quote]You've tried to say I'm arguing semantics when clearly you've just been ignoring critically important distinctions for whatever reason. [/quote] [font=arial]Not at all. Again, re-read my comments - I have frequently been making clear distinctions that you have been ignoring. I even attached examples to those distinctions. [/font] [quote]You said I was taking quotes out of context, and then I showed you how the context is no different today. You told me about how it was so plausible to assume a "significantly more powerful system" and then I produced the quotes and interviews from Iwata & CO that directly contradict any such assumptions.[/quote] [font=arial]The context [i]is[/i] different today. We were talking about dumping existing code and building a [i]new[/i] game for a [i]new[/i] system. This was also being said at a time when specifications were unknown - we were told they would be modest in comparison to other new platforms, but nobody knew we were dealing with what is essentially a modified GameCube. So the context has absolutely changed and your quote, nor any of your further remarks, took this into account.[/font] [quote]You said that WiiTP is being treated better than other ports, but that's a complete lie by reading about three other ports and I listed them and the improvements (Madden 07, Marvel UA, and Far Cry). [/quote] [font=arial]It [i]is[/i] being treated better than other ports in general, lol. I never said it was being treated better than those specific games - I was referring to ports in general. As far as how it compares to those games in terms of porting...I think it's still on the same level. So there's no issue there whatsoever.[/font] [quote]You tried to come back to how the Wiimote is a fundamental change to play control. That just got killed with nails in the coffin, and I provided examples of undeniable fundamental changes to play control to support what I was saying, and showed the major differences between the true and most important fundamental play control changes of the past twenty years (SMB and Super Mario 64 in particular) and what WiiTP is shaping up to be. [/quote] [font=arial]But yet again, you've gone off on a tangent that nobody but yourself is discussing, lol. This has nothing to do with how Super Mario 64 or any game impacts on game control in general - it has [i]nothing[/i] to do with making comparisons to control changes over the last twenty years. For you to even follow that line of thinking suggests that you've completely glossed over what's been posted. What is being said is that Twilight Princess on Wii has a fundamentally different control system to the GameCube version - this is the [i]only[/i] comparison that is being made. Your examples are redundant because you are arguing a point that nobody else has raised, lol. So, seriously...something is going wrong there. You either need to read our posts more carefully, or you need to make sure that you're picking up on the right points. I'm honestly not going to keep going over this. Either move on with the discussion or don't post at all - both Desbreko [i]and[/i] myself are tired of the constant tangents and misinterpretations. Moving on with the discussion and keeping the thread on track are not an option, so this part of the discussion ends here. lol[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSeraphim Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='Papa Smurf'] And remember! I would have been perfectly, perfectly content to have left my views on the matter at those one or two sentences a while ago.[/quote] ******** I'll be angling for a Wii at Christmas and TP is something I'm interested in, largely because I haven't played a new Zelda game in a long while and I'm getting a Wii anyway. Why wait man, even if it is a port? lol GCN is delayed a month, ideally I'll have a Wii already, and the control changes seem interesting enough to warrant a purchase. I won't have a problem with it. As for what I expect from the first true Wii Zelda, I can say without a doubt that I hope it's not as extensive as what Papa Smurf is suggesting. Swinging the controller in formations to cast spells? Realistic tension on bows? Man, I want to play a videogame, not workout. While the Nintendo has the potential to make a very interactive and different game with the Wiimote, I think there's a fine line between utilising the new tech in interesting ways and make playing games a chore (and even embarassing in front of company, especially if you do the spells thing) by overutilising it. Having the controller swing in the same way on screen as you're doing with the wiimote would be a nice subtle change - in both tactics and immersion. Having to simulate firing the bow right down to holding an arrow would just be irritating. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] [color=red][b]Don't bypass the swear censor. -Charles[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [font=arial]I warned you, Alex. I discussed this thread with Desbreko and he agreed with what I was saying - you need to reconsider the way you talk to people. In particular, you need to seriously rethink your debating tactics. lol Let's keep the thread moving, people.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 [color=#4B0082]So here's [url=http://www.koopacabana.com/archives/48-Japanese-Twilight-Princess-To-Be-Sold-Online-Only.html][u]something interesting[/u][/url]. Apparently the GCN version of Twilight Princess is only going to be available in Japan through Nintendo's online store. First the GCN version's delay in North America, and now this. It seems like Nintendo wants to move the game over to the Wii entirely but they're stuck with both versions because they were saying forever that the game would be released on the GCN.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yeah, this is pretty old news. I heard this about a month ago, which has been another basis for my argument that the Gamecube version should just be cancelled altogether, really. Edit: I was able to find the link. Here it is: [url]http://cube.ign.com/articles/732/732852p1.html[/url] Note the very end of the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 As old as the news is, I still find it hilarious. You've got a delay in North America, strictly online ordering in Japan...Twilight Princess really should have been an either/or instead of this weird delay/quasi-cancel/preferential treatment tightrope balancing act. It would have made more sense to cancel one version...or just ignore the Wii like they implied they were going to do originally. This entire situation reads like a lousy soap opera or Vincent Price B-movie. lol [quote][color=#4b0082]Nintendo wants to move the game over to the Wii entirely but they're stuck with both versions because they were saying forever that the game would be released on the GCN.[/color][/quote] QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 [font=arial]I think the problem they face is that the Wii version is a semi-recent development. They don't want to just dump years of development work on GameCube...that would make the entire process somewhat pointless. Selling the game for both systems makes a lot of sense, both financially for Nintendo as well as for game players themselves. As far as online ordering goes...I'm surprised. But I suppose it's also a release date thing too. The fact that there's a delay in North America may mean that they won't need to go that route there. Either way, I would ideally like to be able to have the Wii version but use the GameCube controller if I want. I don't think that's an option though, and [i]that[/i] is disappointing. [b]Edit:[/b] Has anyone seen the latest impressions from IGN Wii? These impressions are based on the final version of the game. [url="http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/744/744044p1.html"]Here's the article[/url]. Here are a few choice quotes:[/font] [quote=IGN Wii]Twilight Princess may have started as a GameCube title, but it finished a Wii one. There remains this faction of gamers that refuses to accept the possibility. You know who you are. You continue to argue that because the controls were originally designed for the GameCube pad there is no hope for the Wii build. You say that your arms will get tired using the Wii remote. You speak of mirrored worlds and right-handed Link. And you know what? It's all crap. If you have the means to buy Twilight Princess for Wii and you still get it for GameCube, you are a fool. And I state that without meaning to suggest that the GCN iteration is flawed - it isn't. It's an amazing swan song for Nintendo's older system, so if you've got no other option you're still golden. But that said, it's not as good as the Wii incarnation. In fact, were it up to me and not Nintendo (and in my dreams, it is), I'd have scrapped the GCN build altogether, forcing everyone to exclusively buy the Wii version. Honestly, Nintendo gave you five good years with GameCube; it's time to move on. [/quote] [quote name='IGN Wii']The remote-enhanced control comes to mind. Using the pointer with Zelda felt unintuitive when Nintendo unveiled the mechanic last May, but it has come a long way since then. Now, slashing Link's sword with the remote feels very good and using the device to aim and target with weapons like the Hero's Bow and Gale Boomerang absolutely demolishes the traditional configuration. There really is no comparison - and there's no going back. Also, Zelda on Wii makes full use of the remote's internal speaker and this is, believe it or not, a very welcomed feature. I've always been skeptical of this speaker, mind you, because I simply don't think it outputs the best audio quality.[/quote] [font=arial]I will definitely be buying Zelda for Wii on launch. I've pre-ordered Wii and already paid for most of it, so I'll be able to pick up a few games when it comes out. These latest impressions are absolutely glowing, so I'm very happy with that. Has anyone got links to other impressions out there?[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semjaza Posted November 4, 2006 Author Share Posted November 4, 2006 That first quote is hilarious to me. My friend is just like that. He won't buy the Wii version at all. Keep in mind this guy has been saving for the Wii and likely will pick one up on launch day. His opinion on the thing is kind of weird to me since he isn't buying any games with it, since he thinks he'll want to play Tennis for a million years. That's another story. His main argument is simply that it was made for GameCube. It's its last game and for some reason he feels this, for lack of a better word, "guilt" that's making him want to use the system. And despite the fact that he will have a Wii, he's going to play it on the GCN itself. I've asked him about it a few times and I just don't get it at all. He's going to have the Wii. It's coming out weeks earlier. It obviously is improved in random ways (widescreen for one, considering he has a widescreen HDTV). Yet he doesn't care. He just has been looking forward to it on GCN and the fact that it is appearing elsewhere is kind of some sort of annoyance. He too brings up the whole "left handed!" thing, but why does that matter to anyone? Prior to the N64 titles, Link switched hands due to a sprite flip. I don't see how this is written in stone... particularly when most of these Links are supposed to be totally different people. I did mention I would probably get the GCN version too. To this he gives a kind of "Aha! See, you too!!" kind of response. Except, you know, that the huge difference is that I probably won't be getting a Wii any time soon. And if I did, I'd be getting Zelda on it. It's just such a weird mindset. It's still a Nintendo system. Nothing else is coming to GCN of note after that. Why push off the inevitable? I don't understand it. Also, here's more good impressions: [url]http://blog.wired.com/games/2006/11/zelda_the_reaso.html#more[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 [color=dimgray] [url=http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3154917]This impression[/url] was actually the first one I came across. I wasn't as interested in the specifics of the Wii Remote, so I went to IGN instead. 70 hours? I don't know how to react to that. Overjoyed, but at the same time worried that it will interfere with school. >_> At least I'll have Thanksgiving Break to immerse myself into the game for a short while. I also watched the newly released vid-clips, which were expectedly amazing. Right now the only hesitation I have over Wii is whether I should pre-order it or not. I doubt it will be completely sold out, but where I live they'll probably get snapped up pretty quickly so I can't be too sure. P: I'm glad that Nintendo didn't put in voice-overs; hearing Link actually talk would probably just weird me out. And just choosing a voice that would be ok with everyone seems like an impossible task. I really just hope they never give Link a voice-over. And out of all the incredible things I've seen/heard about in TP, I guess it's weird for me to say that I really, really like Link's design. I know he looks pretty much the same, but it's just [i]good[/i]. I still think that Link's character design is one of the best ones I've seen, ever, in anything. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nara Kai Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Wow, I think it's cool~ It IS cool, right? I've never played that but I think I should buy this game tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 [font=arial]Here's another great quote:[/font] [quote=GameLife]"The other thing I'm trying to get across when I tell you of my gameplay marathon is that it was spent not entangled in the Wii controller but indeed in luxurious comfort. In a day full of revelations, surprises, and 'holy ****' moments, this was the biggest one of all for me: Go sit in front of your TV. After five minutes or so, look where your hands are. Likely they're just sprawled out at either side of your torso. Where they're likely not is sitting parallel to each other in the middle of your lap, where they'd be if you had a game controller. This isn't an unnatural position per se, but neither could it be called a rest position. Of course it works -- I've been doing it for twenty-odd years and have no problem with it, per se. But the Wii controller is split in two halves. And you don't need to constantly be pointing the Wii remote half at the TV screen, because it doesn't control the camera and this isn't a first-person shooter. You only need point the remote at the TV when required by the game -- when you're going to shoot your slingshot, or for other purposes (which will be revealed when the final embargo date is up). Get where I'm going with this? By hour two or so, my remote hand was resting on my right leg, twisted inwards. But my left hand was out of my lap entirely, just hanging over the arm of the chair as if I was holding a Dustbuster and cleaning the rug. And I was playing the game, actively, perfectly. Had the only innovation of the Wii controller been to split the game pad up into two independent halves, it would have been worth it for that alone. You can't understand this with a five-minute trade show demo. You have to be at home, in your natural environment. You also attack enemies by shaking the remote. You don't need to aim -- it's just a substitute for what pressing a button would do in the GameCube version. It doesn't really affect the gameplay one way or another. I say this even though the aforementioned Trinen was attempting to convince me that after this, he couldn't go back to hitting a button again. I can't put myself in that column, but I can say that: No, your arm will not get tired No, your wrist will not hurt No, you won't have to stop every hour for a break Shut up All it takes is a little tiny nudge of the controller and you'll swing your sword. Within about a minute it becomes second nature. It also frees up one of the buttons on the controller. The way the game was before, with "sword slash" assigned to the A or B button, it meant that the only way you could use your inventory items would be to assign them to the D-pad. This was how it was set up at E3, and it was kind of uncomfortable. But now, you use your items (the bow, the boomerang, etc) with the B trigger, and do all your context-sensitive stuff (rolling, pushing) with the A button. Actually, I guess it does affect gameplay a bit -- since you have your hands on both buttons and the "shake" all at once, it means you can execute all kinds of varying maneuvers faster and more efficiently than on the GameCube controller. If you're part of that contingent who planned on buying a Wii, but getting the GameCube version of Zelda anyway just because you believe that the motion controls would ruin it, let me tell you something. Once, I was wondering, honestly, whether or not you were right. I was worried that the Wii version of the game would be rendered gimmicky and unsuitable for long-term play sessions. But now I've played it, and not only has every lingering speck of doubt been scrubbed clean, I was actually shocked at how well it worked."[/quote] [font=arial]I'm so pleased with all the impressions I've been reading. The writer here is right though - you have to try this game in a natural environment...not at a trade show. I'm very happy to hear these comments about control. I also never considered the fact that using motion to slash the sword and using buttons for other functions actually makes combat and movement faster and simpler with Wii. This is definitely the first Wii game I'm buying.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 [color=dimgray] Just a heads up that there's several videos of live play-time from the game up at IGN. [url="http://media.wii.ign.com/media/748/748589/vids_1.html"]Here's[/url] the link. They're fun to watch, and there aren't any huge spoilers or anything. And for anyone who watches [spoiler] the one where Midna talks- is it just me or does it sound like baby talk?[/spoiler] P:[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Gamespot review was posted a little while ago. I'm very amused by what's been said ultimately, even in the light of such positive hands-on previews. Though, this really should not surprise anyone, since we were reading glowing hands-on previews of GoldenEye: Rogue Agent. And we all know how badly that turned out. URL: [url="http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/thelegendofzelda/review.html"]http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/thelegendofzelda/review.html[/url] [quote] [b]The Good:[/b] Compelling characters and story; outstanding world and puzzle design; longer than most action adventure games; terrific graphics, from an artistic perspective. [b]The Bad:[/b] [i]Wii-specific elements feel tacked on[/i]; graphics and sound sometimes go from nostalgic to dated.[/quote] [quote]It's good that Twilight Princess' world and puzzle design can carry it, because the combat and boss fights aren't very deep at all. Most enemies just require you to swing your sword at them, which is done by shaking the Wii Remote or shaking the Nunchuk for a spin attack. You can lock onto enemies with the Z trigger and strafe around them, hop back and forth, leap in for a jumping attack, or jump back and out of the way--the same basic moves as past installments. But normally you can just keep on shaking the Wii Remote like a maniac and come out on top against most enemies. There's no finesse to the way the Wii Remote is used, and at times you'll wish that you could just hit a button to swing the sword instead of dealing with all the [i]motion-sensing nonsense[/i]. This is especially true in the rare cases that require you to time your sword swings properly, as well as once you start learning a few extra moves, like the shield bash, which is done by shoving the Nunchuk controller forward. Most of the time, performing this move resulted in a spin attack. The combat controls using the Wii Remote may feel somewhat different from past games, but [i]it doesn't draw you into the experience any more than using a standard controller would, and at worst, it's imprecise[/i].[/quote] [quote]So as impressive of a game as it is, Twilight Princess seems like it could have been so much more with a few presentational updates and more effective and interesting uses of the Wii's unique control scheme.[/quote] Oh, incidentally, I played Excite Truck earlier today. I was very eager to try the Wii out, because apparently "playing is believing," and fortunately got a solid 20 minutes with it. After a hands-on session, I can say with total confidence that the game is exceedingly underwhelming. The controls are neither precise nor satisfying, and the game plays more like a budget title rather than a launch racing game. The Wiimote never feels responsive, and it is much too small to comfortably hold sideways. And actually, the D-pad itself is marginally larger than the GCN's, which is increasingly problematic. For a controller that is touted to be more intuitive, it's actually the complete opposite; using the Wiimote never becomes second nature. I never once felt like I was actually controlling the trucks. What was particularly troublesome was how the cursor itself was getting stuck on the edges of the screen when navigating through the various menus. I couldn't bring it back through soft motions; jerking the Wiimote back to center was the only way to unstick the cursor. I've heard that subtle hand movements are enough to use the Wiimote, but that's really not the case at all. A lot of the time, I had to make my movements really pronounced. So from my hands-on experience with the Wiimote itself, I can absolutely see where the reviewer's comments are coming from regarding WiiTP, and due to that hands-on experience, I'm more inclined to trust the Gamespot review more than any of the stupid-simple perfect score reviews posted elsewhere. [u][b]EDIT #2[/b][/u]: And after the incessant fan-flaming and whining after the original review, another Gamespot editor wrote the following in a blog entry (url: [url]http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24771792&user=MattRorie#la[/url]): [quote][url="http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24771792&user=MattRorie"]It's Zelda, people.[/url] Since I know people are upset about the review (which is odd considering how few people have played this game at the moment), I figured I'd share some opinions based on playing through the first five hours or so of the game. It's the same damn game we've all been playing for the last 15-odd years. Hey, guess what? You get to go into dungeons...and find items...and put together pieces of heart to make new heart containers. I haven't gotten very far into it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Triforce is in the mix at some point. There's a difference between tradition and ossification, and Nintendo's been content to let this series stay the same for too damn long. What's more, in a lot of ways it's actually getting to be pretty annoying. The helper characters, in particular, seem to be intended to be cute, but they wind up being maddeningly insufferable. In a lot of ways, Midna, the helper character from Twilight Princess, is even worse than Tingle from Wind Waker. And I don't know whose idea it was to make the first dungeon in the game feature a large number of monkeys that follow you around making incessent monkey noises, but they should be shot. Most annoying. sound. ever. When you have the pointer active, it also makes a shimmering sound as you move the Wiimote around. It never ever stops making this sound, and it got so damn annoying that I simply turned the pointer off completely. Since every game in this series is more or less the same, outside of minor details, choosing among them is more or less a matter of deciding which style suits you best. Wind Waker had, at the very least, a graphical sensibility that was unique, whereas Twilight Princess just seems...generic. For a game that plays up its theoretically realistic graphical style, it also has to do a bit better job of representing the world; it's fine that the Wii isn't as powerful as a 360 or a PS3, but at the very least it should be capable of matching the best-looking games on the GameCube. From top to bottom, Twilight Princess is a game that was transparently designed for the GameCube and hacked to work on the Wii. The controls feel kind of shoddy in a lot of ways. I guess what disappoints me most about this game is the lack of ambition and innovation. The Wii has some promising ideas behind it, but if they're content to have their flagship title be Just Another Zelda Game(TM) then they're getting off on the wrong foot. I guess if you like the Zelda formula, then you'll like this game. Speaking for myself, though, I can't imagine how anyone really gets excited for them anymore; the recycling of game mechanics ventured into self-parody territory years ago. I really think the series needs to take a cue from Resident Evil 4 and reinvent itself completely. Heck, even the Final Fantasy games manage to make some big changes to the series' conventions with each installation. As it is, everything about Twilight Princess, and pretty much every game in the series aside from The Adventure of Link, smacks of Nintendo being content to play it safe with their big-money series. Give me something new![/quote] I played WiiTP earlier today for a significant amount of time, and every single thing said in both the above blog entry and the review itself is absolutely true. WiiTP looks downright terrible, the controls are substandard, the Wiimote isn't utilized well at all--but above all else, what was one of the best features introduced in WindWaker is totally absent: an independent, manually controlled camera. You'd think the Wiimote could spin the view around when you're just walking or running around like the right thumbstick could in every single third-person action-adventure platformer in existence. But it certainly appears to be impossible to have in WiiTP. I scoured the menu options and found nothing to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 [font=arial]At the end of the day though, you're going to follow whatever justifies your position. There are many, many reviews out there - not just Gamespot's. Afterall, Gamespot was the site that down-rated Super Mario Sunshine for having low quality FMV...which obviously has nothing to do with the game itself.[/font] [quote name='1UP/EGM']That's a lot to live up to, and surprisingly -- amazingly -- Twilight Princess succeeds admirably, and in every respect. On top of that, it's an exceptional game in its own right: gracefully improving on the best elements of its predecessors, carefully trimming their shortcomings, and throwing in plenty of new ideas to keep things interesting. [/quote] [quote name='1UP/EGM']And thanks to precision and ease of use of the control interface, you can plant an arrow right between those eyes from that distance, too. The game's move to the Wii was a worrying change for many who feared it threatened to compromise a solidly crafted adventure for the sake of proving that the Wii can too play host to this kind of game. But those worries were ultimately needless: Twilight Princess is great on Wii. The remote-swinging sword attacks create a streamlined interface that allows for the most impressive swordplay the series has yet seen. While the Wii's button layout is a bit unwieldy, the core mechanics are as solid as ever. [/quote][font=arial] [quote=1UP/EGM]Twilight Princess is something you rarely see: a 60-hour adventure in which every moment is memorable. But then, maybe that's no surprise -- it represents the full resources and effort of the world's most powerful first-party developer, and thanks to all those delays, it's even enjoyed an extra year of polish and refinement. The question to ask therefore isn't "Is it any good?" but rather "Just how good is it?" The answer? Truly fantastic. It's not a reinvention of the genre like Ocarina was -- but it's much better, because it takes all its predecessors' raw ideas, perfects them, and creates an experience that's at once new and familiar. It's rare to find a launch game that truly justifies the purchase of a new console, but this is precisely that. If Wii Sports is a game for everyone, Twilight Princess is for everyone who loves games. [/quote] So, yeah...I think what really matters is how many glowing reviews there are, versus the negatives. Gamespot are known for pointing out red herrings now and then - they may very well be right in this case, but you know...there's a lot of gaming sites out there. I'll have to read more reviews on more sites ultimately. In any case, I'll have the game on December 7th, so I will be letting everyone know what I think of it...whether that opinion is positive or negative.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 [quote name='James][font=arial']Afterall, Gamespot was the site that down-rated Super Mario Sunshine for having low quality FMV...which obviously has nothing to do with the game itself.[/font][/quote] Remember that Gamespot has also taken a very fair stance toward Wii games in general; it's probably one of the better (or best) sites for Wiiviews. Only Red Steel and Excite Truck received mediocre ratings (5.5 and 6.8, respectively), and I can guarantee that Excite Truck totally deserves such a rating. Super Monkey Ball was given marks in the high 8.X, which is totally appropriate given the game's design itself. Madden 07 also received marks in the high 8.X, and speaking from first-hand experience, Gamespot was totally fair with its assessment of Madden; the game simply rocks. This isn't a matter of following whatever justifies my views. This is a matter of highlighting the level-headed, responsible, and [i]fair[/i] reviews out there, like the ones at Gamespot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 [QUOTE=Papa Smurf] This isn't a matter of following whatever justifies my views. This is a matter of highlighting the level-headed, responsible, and [i]fair[/i] reviews out there, like the ones at Gamespot.[/QUOTE] [font=arial]Haha. That statement speaks for itself. But as I said, it's really a matter of looking at a spread of reviews. I think 1UP has actually been one of the sites to hold Wii more "accountable", so their glowing review of Twilight Princess is actually a little unexpected in that regard. In any case, as I said, I will be posting my view of the game once I buy it and play it for a few hours. I'm sure I will like it - it is Zelda afterall - but whether I'm happy with the changes and the controls is another issue entirely. If I'm not happy with it, you can bet it'll collect dust while I play other launch titles.[/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 [quote name='James']Haha. That statement speaks for itself.[/quote] Explain, please. Do explain how it's still so obviously me just following something to justify my views, when I'd voiced those predictions ages ago, long before many of the hands-on previews, only to have my predictions ultimately confirmed in reviews that don't just get wowed by TP and give it a 10/10 without so much as a second thought. Not to mention having those predictions confirmed by my own first-hand experience playing the retail launch edition of WiiTP. Man, it's not me following something to justify my views; it's my first-hand experience and reasoning skills justifying the 8.8 review. [quote]But as I said, it's really a matter of looking at a spread of reviews. I think 1UP has actually been one of the sites to hold Wii more "accountable", so their glowing review of Twilight Princess is actually a little unexpected in that regard.[/quote] 1UP? Man, they were lovey-dovey even months before launch, and it's not like they were much skeptical at all before that, so don't even try to portray them as some sort of convert. [quote]In any case, I'll have the game on December 7th, so I will be letting everyone know what I think of it...whether that opinion is positive or negative.[/QUOTE] And I can't wait to see what happens when you play what I just suffered through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 [color=dimgray] I have to agree with the whole generic Zelda game things the Gamespot editor was talking about. I think the Zelda formula is really great, and it's the only game series that I really get into and follow, but a reinvention would be something fresh and revitalizing. I remember reading something where Nintendo said that Twilight Princess was the last traditional Zelda game. I'm 99% sure it wasn't a rumor or anything, one of the creators or directors or someone said it, so I look forward to the completely Wii-designed Zelda that will come out sooner or later. In regards to the controller complaints... huh. I've read so many things about how well-adjusted players got to the Wiimote and it's natural feel, so I'm surprised that Papa Smurf finds it mediocre. Sort of dampens what I expected, but I I'll decide how well the remote works when I play it. [strike]And hopefully all the "the gameplay makes you forget completely about the graphics" is right, because I too am a bit dissapointed from the sample vids/pictures of Twilight Princess. [/strike]I understand that it's a port game, but I believe that it's a general consensus from reivews that TP doesn't surpass the graphics of an average GC game. I've never been too big on graphics, but I guess I just expected more. edit: On the whole graphics thing, do the component cables for Wii really enhance the graphics that much? I've heard a lot about them, but I don't know is I want to buy them. more edit: I take what I said about the graphics partially back. I'm still just bleh about the textural detail and blurry backgrounds, but the rest of the game has some amazing stuff. Spoke too quickly on that one. P:[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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