Gaming The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess

[James]

[color=#B0251E]This trailer is absolutely stunning. And today's news in general has been most interesting. ~_^

Somehow this trailer really reminds me of Majora's Mask, in terms of its darkness and some of the more twisted artwork. Even that big Gohma-type guy looks pretty darn frightening. Some parts of this trailer almost seemed to be reminiscent of Resident Evil 4, which is interesting. lol[/color]

[Shinmaru]

The trailer is awesome, the game actually looked better than I expected. And I was expecting it to look damn gorgeous, mind. lol

Before, I was excited about the game, but maybe not [i]quite[/i] as much as most, since I was still getting over the disappointment of the Wind Waker style not being used for the next Zelda. I loved the cel-shading. One meh character design (and I didn't think Link looked too bad, really) does not negate an entire world that looks phenomenal, in my view.

But, damn, this trailer has got me absolutely giddy for the new Zelda. The darker layout of the world looks really cool, and I'm loving the wide variety of enemies seen so far. Also, that boar creature that Link was riding looked cool lol.

[SunfallE]

I agree, I think the previous trailer didn't show how great it looks. I mean the previous trailer did look cool, but this was even better! *sigh* now if Nintendo could only tell us when it's finally going to be released! I can't wait! :animesmil

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Holy crap this game is gorgeous. Those fort shots, with the light filtering down through the trees, is absolutely beautiful. The blazing sun blazing out from behind the Goron, the heat waves above flames, the misty rain. ... Wow. I knew this game was going to look good, but just ... wow. Like the first trailer, I now have this one playing full screen on loop up on my second monitor as I type this.

Some things I noticed in particular, though: The down strike is back, in all its glory. I really hope this is something you can do at pretty much any time, like the jump attack. Enemies look to attack you pretty much constantly, rather than standing around for five seconds, attacking once, and repeating. I'm thinking I'm going to love combat in this game even more than TWW. And finally, the bomb-tipped arrow returns! I've been waiting for that to make a comeback ever since it was introduced in Link's Awakening. It's so much more useful (and cool looking) than those stupid Bombchu.

And some other little things I thought were neat/cool: Weather effects; we see sun, rain, lightning, fog, and even snow in the new trailer. There's no reticule for L-Targeting it doesn't look like, and Link doesn't flash red when he gets hit. Cats are the newest addition to the Zelda series' collection of friendly animals. Link actually glances behind himself while the big spider is chasing him. And finally, that cool little animation when Link sheaths his sword.

I can't wait for this game.[/color]

[Charles]

It looks exactly like the Nintendo 64 versions only updated with obvious technical advancements. The cat scene was a pleasant surprise though.

Hopefully they've updated the presentation of the narrative as well and added voice-overs (I know, to everyone except Link) to fully bring all components of this game up to the cinematic standards they're trying to achieve.

[Semjaza]

I don't really see how it's any more "cinematic" than Wind Waker was. It looks different, that's all that can be judged from this video. I don't feel making it look less cartoony magically requires a vocal presence. I still don't really want one in general. The chance of them finding a fitting voice for anyone (not even including Link) seems really unlikely.

[quote name='Desbreko][color=#4B0082']HThere's no reticule for L-Targeting it doesn't look like, and Link doesn't flash red when he gets hit.[/color][/quote]

That's hard to judge considering there's no display whatsoever in this entire video. I'm sure that will be in the verisons people can play.

The only real thing I care about is that they've claimed several times that they're trying to go in different directions with the actual game itself. That's difficult to tell from the video obviously, but I hope that actually happens.

[Charles]

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']I don't really see how it's any more "cinematic" than Wind Waker was. It looks different, that's all that can be judged from this video. I don't feel making it look less cartoony magically requires a vocal presence. I still don't really want one in general. The chance of them finding a fitting voice for anyone (not even including Link) seems really unlikely.[/quote]

The camera angles and scope of the envionments within the shots seem more cinematic although it could just be because of the trailer. The scene where Link is running away from the spider instead of directly battling it is cinematic as are the scenes where he battles on horseback. Perhaps "epic" would be a better word than cinematic here but regardless I'm not willing to accept a flimsy excuse like a lack of talent to provide the voices. In this day and age, that's simply not the case any more. I'm sure there are fitting voice actors out there.

[Semjaza]

[quote name='Charles'] In this day and age, that's simply not the case any more. I'm sure there are fitting voice actors out there.[/quote]

In this day and age the ratio of games with good voice acting to bad voice acting is still ridiculously poor. I certainly cannot think of a voice that I would ever easily accept as Zelda, Ganondorf or really anyone else in the game. If they add it, whatever. I don't see it as a necessity in any sense.

[BlueYoshi]

[quote name='James][color=#B0251E']Somehow this trailer really reminds me of Majora's Mask, in terms of its darkness and some of the more twisted artwork. Even that big Gohma-type guy looks pretty darn frightening.[/color][/quote]

[color=darkred]Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. I dunno why, but there's a certain distinctiveness between Majora's Mask and Ocarina Of Time that I can always tell the two apart. Pretty bizarre, huh.

As for the voice acting, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. As amazing as this game is looking right now, I don't think any amount of poor vocals (song lyrics included, just in case ;)) could ruin my appetite for it. Regardless, it'll be hard to get Link's voice directly, I think, because there have been a few different versions of him already across many different LoZ games. On the one hand, you have a young, childish looking Link in TWW, yet you have a full-fledged swordsman in OOT and MM. Granted, they aren't the same person, but these fluctuations could give a new-comer LoZ player the wrong impressions, and may lead to a misjudgement of character. Though I'm glad I'm not in that boat. Phew.[/color]

[Semjaza]

[url]http://gc.advancedmn.com/article.php?artid=4507[/url]

They have ridiculously high resolution versions of the trailer here. Downloads are incredibly slow, but I expect that less and less people will download over the coming days and speed that up.

[James]

[QUOTE=Bombu][color=darkred]
As for the voice acting, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. As amazing as this game is looking right now, I don't think any amount of poor vocals (song lyrics included, just in case ;)) could ruin my appetite for it. Regardless, it'll be hard to get Link's voice directly, I think, because there have been a few different versions of him already across many different LoZ games. On the one hand, you have a young, childish looking Link in TWW, yet you have a full-fledged swordsman in OOT and MM. Granted, they aren't the same person, but these fluctuations could give a new-comer LoZ player the wrong impressions, and may lead to a misjudgement of character. Though I'm glad I'm not in that boat. Phew.[/color][/QUOTE]

[color=#B0251E]Basically, I'm mixed about the voice issue. Let's say, in a worst-case scenario, Nintendo puts horrible voices in the game. If they at least let me turn them off and just read text...then that'd satisfy me.

On the other hand, I have to admit, Nintendo tend to have done a much better job with voice work than most companies. Just look at Mario. He's my all-time favourite game character (and franchise). Making him talk was a massive risk, but I love his voice...and I couldn't imagine him talking in any other way.

At the same time, just about all the characters in the Mario universe (even the annoying ones) have appropriate voices.

Or you could look at Metroid Prime (PAL version) or Eternal Darkness. In the former case, the narration was spot-on. In the latter case (despite not being directly created by Nintendo), we had pretty stellar voice work throughout. So I tend to feel that Nintendo is careful about how it applies voice in games, generally.

Even Link's currently-existing adult voice (when he's slashing his sword and so on) really suits him. How would it sound when delivering dialogue? I don't really know.

As long as he doesn't talk like an angsty teenager who just came out of a surfing competition, I'll probably be happy. lol

Having said all of that though, I don't think that voice should at all be a prerequesite or a requirement. Although it's possible for Mario to talk a lot, I'm happy enough for him to just make grunts and yelps and so on. As long as there is clarity and variety to the sound, I don't really care.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[QUOTE=James][color=#B0251E]Basically, I'm mixed about the voice issue. Let's say, in a worst-case scenario, Nintendo puts horrible voices in the game. If they at least let me turn them off and just read text...then that'd satisfy me.

Even Link's currently-existing adult voice (when he's slashing his sword and so on) really suits him. How would it sound when delivering dialogue? I don't really know.
[/color][/QUOTE]

I have to agree. If they do put a voice in for Link I hope they have enough sense to let you turn it off if you want. I'm too use to the existing voice for when he slashes his sword and such. It can be hard to play a game if the voice is really horriable. Yet at the same time if the game is good you will find yourself getting use to the voice. One of my favirote games had a voice that just drove me up the wall at first. But halfway through the game as the character's personality became more apparent it started to actually fit and it no longer bothered me. Part of me thinks a voice would be great and another part cringes at the mere idea.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']That's hard to judge considering there's no display whatsoever in this entire video. I'm sure that will be in the verisons people can play.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Yeah, that's true. ... Though I'd actually prefer it if Link didn't flash when he gets hit. The little animation and voice clip is enough to tell me I've taken a hit, and I think it just looks better without the flashing. Kind of funny, since I never even really payed attention to that in the previous 3D games, but now that it's not there in the trailer, I actually prefer it that way.

And to kind of go with that, I also think they should get rid of the temporary invinciblity after you take damage, as well as removing it for monsters. (They headed in this direction with TWW, since you could do some nice sword combos and actually do damage with each hit. You just couldn't damage enemies that were knocked over.) If something manages to hit you 2+ times in quick succession, every hit should do damage, and the same when you're attacking enemies. That could help quicken the pace of combat and add some difficulty. The former was improved on in TWW (and I hope it's further increased with this new game), but the latter is still sorely lacking in the 3D games.

But I still want some sort of indicator for which enemy I'm targeting. Would really be annoying without.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082] I also think they should get rid of the temporary invinciblity after you take damage, as well as removing it for monsters. (They headed in this direction with TWW, since you could do some nice sword combos and actually do damage with each hit. You just couldn't damage enemies that were knocked over.) If something manages to hit you 2+ times in quick succession, every hit should do damage, and the same when you're attacking enemies. That could help quicken the pace of combat and add some difficulty. The former was improved on in TWW (and I hope it's further increased with this new game), but the latter is still sorely lacking in the 3D games.

But I still want some sort of indicator for which enemy I'm targeting. Would really be annoying without.[/color][/QUOTE]
I agree that removing the temporary invinciblity would be a huge improvement. I think it would be more realistic that way. I mean they did it in the final battle with Majora's Mask. It made beating the game that much harder. Espically when the mask would toss Link accross the room several times in a row. Not only could you do nothing to block the attack, you took damage even though Link was flashing. It would definatly be a huge improvement so I hope they do the same with the new game.

I agree with the targeting too. It would be totally annoying without it. Though when you watch the trailer, even though I don't see anything it does look like Link is targeting the enemy so it's proably included.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='RahXephon']Can i join all of you in waiting for what seems to be the BEST GAME TO HIT THE GC SINCE REZI 4??!?[/quote][color=#4B0082]Just so long as you post something that adds to the discussion in some way. So, sorry, but posting along the lines of, "OMG, this looks awesome!" is spam. If you have some thoughts or comments on the game beyond that, you're welcome to post them, but that in itself doesn't quite cut it.[/color]

[quote name='SunfallE']I mean they did it in the final battle with Majora's Mask. It made beating the game that much harder.[/quote][color=#4B0082]Wow, really? I didn't notice, since I never got hit during the final battle in MM. (Fierce Deity's Mask for the win. :animesmil) I keep thinking I should go back and fight Majora without the Fierce Deity's Mask some time, but I just never get around to it. MM just doesn't really do it for me in the way of dungeons and fighting; best thing about the game is the character interaction.

And yeah, you can tell from the trailer that the targeting is happening, there's just nothing to indicate which enemy is being targeted. I've no doubt the targeting will be there (the game is running of the same engine as TWW, after all), it's just how it will be displayed.

Something I've always thought would be cool, though, is playing through OOT without ever using the targeting. Maybe I'll try it the next time I play OOT. Seems like it would add quite a challenge for some things. (Dark Link? Bongo Bongo? Yeah, I can see those being a pain.) No doubt it would vastly improve your aim with the slingshot and bow, though.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[QUOTE=Desbreko][color=#4B0082][/color]

[color=#4B0082]Wow, really? I didn't notice, since I never got hit during the final battle in MM. (Fierce Deity's Mask for the win. :animesmil) I keep thinking I should go back and fight Majora without the Fierce Deity's Mask some time, but I just never get around to it. MM just doesn't really do it for me in the way of dungeons and fighting; best thing about the game is the character interaction.

[/color][/QUOTE]

LOL I found out the hard way since I was unable to get the fierce diety mask at first. I couldn't pass the section as a Goran at the end. I kept falling off until I realized that once you were going straight you didn't need to steer. Plus without the fierce diety mask the advice you get from the fairy just gets you beaten up. *sigh* Unless I am absoutly completely stuck I am the type to not follow guides or look online for help as I like to figure out as much as possible by myself. So I had the game for several months before I actually got the fierce diety mask.

Each and every Zelda game has it's points I love about it. In Ocarina of Time I loved the time travel aspect, fighting as an adult and as a kid.

In Majora's Mask I loved the 3 day repeat and having to figure out how one action affected another aspect of the game. Or how certain things could only be done on certain days.

In the Wind Waker it was the new landscape. I thought the idea of being on a vast ocean and searching for treasure was a refreshing change.

The new game looks so amazing and I can't wait to find out what points they continued to use and I can't wait to try the new ones, like fighting on horseback. It will feel strange since you were always invincible on horseback before. :D

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Indeed, I can't wait to see what this new game's theme is. Certainly the horseback fighting will be a big part of the game, like sailing was in TWW. But beyond that, what the game will focus on. LTTP had its dual worlds, OOT and MM had their time traveling effects, and TWW had the controlling of the wind and all that, and TMC had its shrinkage. ... So I wonder what they're going to do in the new one.

I've also wondered if they'll ever run out of interesting themes for the games. Which also leads to the question of if/when the Zelda series will end. ... Though I try not to think about that too much, or else I start to get teary eyed. :p[/color]

[Turkey]

I bet this game will have heavy emphasis on animals. From the "fake" interview to the new trailer, it all shows heavy influence with the animal world. That wolf was put in there for a reason!

I'm glad this trailer showed Zelda elements, because the first trailer seemed like a generic medieval fantasy game starring Link...

[Charles]

[quote name='James][color=#B0251E']Having said all of that though, I don't think that voice should at all be a prerequesite or a requirement. Although it's possible for Mario to talk a lot, I'm happy enough for him to just make grunts and yelps and so on. As long as there is clarity and variety to the sound, I don't really care.[/color][/quote]

I agree with your post. However, this isn't an apt point of comparison. I can see why you made it and what point you're trying to illustrate. But, in all fairness, there's a line of seperation for prerequesites that exists between a Mario platformer and a Zelda role-playing/adventure game that is becoming more distinct as we delve into this point of discussion. An intricately woven story isn't necessary in a Mario game.

Even with proper voice acting, it just wouldn't be very tolerable. I thought that Gex had a suitable voice, but its presence within that sort of game seemed out-of-place. Even current platformers, like the Jak series, had to completely be re-worked to make voice acting reasonable within the confines of the genre. Considering the thin storylines within Mario platforming titles and the lack of important interaction with other characters, it's just not a necessity for him to speak a lot.

In Zelda, however, there's a heavy emphasis on storyline and communicating with people. Unlike the confrontations between Mario and Bowser, when Link confronts Ganon, there's often a lot of dialogue exchanged before the battle. There's supposed to be more emotional weight and characterization built up throughout the game. Of course, even without voice, the Zelda games have achieved this very well, but as more and more games adopt excellent voice acting to further their storytelling, and it becomes more obvious that Nintendo could do the same, that aspect of the Zelda series just seems antiquated. With Mario, I don't think it'll ever matter unless we're talking about the Mario RPG games, in which they too share the same problem.

[triforcelad]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=Green]The cel shading was indeed, a new twist on a great franchise, but if you are like me, you would want to see a Zelda game with a Link like Soul Caliber 2. Movie quality graphics are what the gaming crowd wants. I remember all the hype with Halo and its sequel because the game pushed Xbox to its limit. I say its about time Gamecube got a game like that.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[James]

[color=#B0251E]I agree with you, Charles.

I should just briefly point out that my intention wasn't to compare Mario to Zelda -- my intention was to use Mario as a generic word for any video game. This could be Mario, it could be Zelda, it could be Pokemon or it could be Final Fantasy. My view would really be the same no matter what the game, even if it were a very story-centric title.

This isn't to say that I wouldn't welcome or support voice. It's just that I think the emphasis is frequently placed on the wrong area. As long as Nintendo provides some sort of option (to have voices on or off, regardless of quality), I really don't mind one way or the other. I just don't think that Nintendo should necessarily jump on the bandwagon because of a particular trend.

To continue from that, I basically totally disagree with triforcelad.

The gaming crowd wants movie quality graphics?

What if I like films such as The Nightmare Before Christmas or Spirited Away? Just as two examples, one could argue that despite their difference in application (ie: animated versus live action), those two films might happen to be artistically more unique and compelling than something that is both live action and bland. Not to say that you can't have a stylized or artistically rich live action film, of course (see Kill Bill).

It's just that, again, we get into this question of photorealism. For some games, photorealism is fine and it works. Gran Turismo for instance.

But I would hate it if every game tried to look like a photograph. I'm glad that the new Zelda isn't doing that. If you consider the art style, you're really not talking about something that is actually "realistic". It looks more life-like, perhaps, but it's quite stylized.

And if you look at, say, Okami for PS2...you see some amazing artwork that we might miss, if all games were to become "movie quality".[/color]

[satan665]

I think that I'm probably in the minority (on these boards at least) in saying that I liked the cartoony wind waker style better than the "realistic" style. Maybe its because I never owned a N64 and didn't play much of those games?

They all have the childish aspects to them, but I thought that the visuals for WW were perfect for Zelda, and I hope that they make another game in that style some day. I don't dislike the way the new one looks, but I'm not too excited about it either. The only thing that I know it will have that will be better than the Wind Waker is going to be the world to wander around in. My only problem with WW was that there weren't any big islands to explore. It was fun to go island hopping, but it would have been even better to have at least a little more land.

Also I hope the new game gets away from the Ganon, save Zelda formula. It doesn't necessarily need to have a brand new villian, but it would be nice if it were a little different than the same old magic swords and silver arrows. We'll see I guess.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Charles']In Zelda, however, there's a heavy emphasis on storyline and communicating with people. Unlike the confrontations between Mario and Bowser, when Link confronts Ganon, there's often a lot of dialogue exchanged before the battle.[/quote][color=#4B0082]While I probably wouldn't mind voice acting in the Zelda series so long as it was done well, I think you're a bit off with this point. If you pay attention, Link still doesn't talk, even through text. I can't recall a single time in the series where he does, unless you count things like choosing yes/no options while people are talking.

So if you were to give Link a voice ... when would he use it? The way the character interaction works in the series would have to be changed simply to incorporate Link speaking at all, be it through text or voice acting. So as things are, the Zelda series actually is very much like the Mario games in that regard. Your character gets talked to, but doesn't do any talking himself.

Giving Link a voice would be a decently significant change, then, rather than just going from written text to spoken voice. Like I said, I might not mind it, and I may even enjoy it, were it to be done. But I still like the way it is now, and I imagine a good number of people simply don't want it to change for whatever reasons.

Myself, I'd be a bit afraid of the Zelda series focusing too much on character interaction and having it detract from the action. (MM suffered from this. It had good character interaction, but not enough focus was placed on the action; the four meager dungeons in the game were rather boring compared to OOT's.) Zelda has never been about a deep storyline or complex character relationships. It's always been about going on a quest to save a princess or whatever; a simple story to facilitate the action. That's one reason why I'll never consider Zelda an RPG, and also a reason why I don't think voice acting is really necessary.[/color]

[Charles]

[quote name='Desbreko][color=#4B0082']While I probably wouldn't mind voice acting in the Zelda series so long as it was done well, I think you're a bit off with this point. If you pay attention, Link still doesn't talk, even through text. I can't recall a single time in the series where he does, unless you count things like choosing yes/no options while people are talking.[/color][/quote]

Nope. I never said that Link talked. However, other characters such as Zelda and the king of Hyrule provide some verbal sparring with Ganon before and during the final battle.

I really think that the series is moving in the direction of complex relationships too. Just look at the seperation of Link and his grandmother. Or his relationship with his sister. Even his relationship with Zelda was more complex in Wind Waker.

[Semjaza]

Other characters are definitely getting more complex and there's been a far heavier attempt to deepen them in many ways. Certainly not to the degree of many RPGs, but certainly beyond what has been attempted in Zelda before. Ganon has been given more of a real personality in the last few games and some of his last words in the Wind Waker were extremely important in his humanization, I think. The same has been done with Zelda, although she's still somewhat two-dimensional.

In any case, there's so many arguments to that. I don't think it's necessary, but I can see why people would want it. Personally, I have no interest in sitting and waiting for voices to finish saying what I finished reading already. I skip ahead of almost every voice over in any game that allows it. That's me.

However, as some of these more important non-player characters, such as Ganon, are given more and more to say, I guess it is somewhat natural to expect them to speak in future games. If it doesn't happen, I'm obviously not going to be disappointed. If it doesn't happen, I also hope other people don't let it ruin the rest of the game that is far more important (such as the actual gameplay and design).

I don't think voices are the next expected component in videogames. Cinematic camera work does not equal a requirement for vocals. Running away from Gohma does not require Link to be shouting out a variety of words.

I went to this show last night that showed nothing but animated films and maybe two out of the dozen or so shown had any sort of voices. There's so much more someone can pull out of something when that is left up to your imagination. They were just as cinematic in nature, if not moreso because you were still in charge of that aspect. That's always been something I've liked about many videogames, especially ones with such deep roots as Zelda.

In any case, Nintendo has not given me faith that they're capable of decent voices. Mario might be fitting, but no one in their right mind would think the overall voice acting in the cutscenes (totally ignoring Mario himself)jonasadanza@sbcglobal.net of Super Mario Sunshine was [i]good[/i]. Most of the Star Fox voices are still disappointing, etc.

I'd not be upset if they added voice acting at all. If it's bad, I'd hope I could turn it off. If it's not bad, I'll probably wind up skipping through most of it to begin with. However, the idea of it being something that is absolutely required to be added to the series in order to improve it is not an idea I agree with. There's things to address that are far more important, such as how Wind Waker was practically OoT in the gameplay department... Although my main interest in the new Zelda is that they've stated that they plan on doing new things with the series.