American beheaded in Iraq...

[Falkon]

my apologies if this thread exists somewhere, but i couldnt find it.

What does everyone think about our situation in iraq, and what do you think about the following article.
QUOTE

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An al Qaeda-linked Web site posted video Tuesday of an American man in Iraq speaking briefly before being beheaded by his masked captors.

His captors said the United States refused to exchange him for prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison.

The captors also issued a direct statement to President Bush: "The worst is coming and, God willing, the tough days are still to come. You and your soldiers will regret the day that you touched the ground of Iraq."

In the video, a man identifies himself as Nicholas Berg, 26, of Pennsylvania and is shown sitting in an orange jumpsuit in front of five armed, hooded men.

The one standing directly behind Berg reads a statement identifying himself, and then Berg is pushed to the floor.

Berg is heard screaming as his throat is cut. One of the captors then holds up his severed head.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," the hooded man standing behind the American said just before the killing.

"Coffins will be arriving to you one after the other, slaughtered just like this."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters, "this shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."

At the Pentagon, officials confirmed that a body found in Iraq by an Army patrol is the person shown in the beheading video. Earlier, the State Department had identified the body as that of Berg.

The Web site said the killing had been carried out by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of an Islamist terrorist group that has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks on coalition forces in Iraq.

The voice on the tape could not be verified as that of al-Zarqawi. CNN staffers familiar with al-Zarqawi's voice said the voice on the tape did not sound like him.


The Web site also published the text of the statement attributed to al-Zarqawi.

In the statement, the captors refer to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. military personnel, saying the "picture of dishonor and the news of Satanic assault on the people of Islamic men and women" will not be tolerated.

"Where is the compassion, where is the anger for God's religion, and where is the protection for Muslims' pride in the crusaders' jails?" the man says.

"We tell you the pride of all Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other jails is worth blood and souls."

Berg was not a soldier or a civilian employee of the Pentagon, the State Department said.

Outside the family home Tuesday in suburban Philadelphia, Bruce Hauser, a neighbor and family spokesman, said Berg owned a company that cleaned and repaired communications towers in Iraq.

Hauser said Berg's family learned about his death Monday and is devastated by the news. The family has asked the State Department to release the body as soon as possible, he said.

Berg's family told The Associated Press that they knew he had been decapitated but weren't aware of the details.

"I knew he was decapitated before," Michael Berg told the AP. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

Suzanne Berg said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman.

"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," she told the AP.

One government official said Berg had earlier been arrested by Iraqi police in a sweep and detained by coalition authorities. Those authorities contacted the FBI, which interviewed Berg, the source said.

Berg was released when authorities realized he was in Iraq legally, the source said. He was in the process of leaving Iraq when he was taken captive by insurgents.

The FBI confirmed that agents also interviewed Berg's parents about why he was in Iraq.

"The agency had been asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq," FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williams said without elaborating.

In early April, Berg's parents filed suit against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying their son was being held by the U.S. military without merit. However, just days after it was filed, the suit was declared moot.

Rep. Jim Gerlach, who represents Berg's hometown, said he had spoken with the family and they are "very, very much emotionally traumatized by this death. Yet at the same time, they are very strong and they are very composed."

He said the family also wants to "find out a lot more information" about what happened between the time Berg was released by authorities and when he was taken hostage.

"They are very interested in finding out more about those circumstances," Gerlach told CNN.
Najaf battles continue

Earlier Tuesday, U.S. military officials said American soldiers have killed 13 Iraqi militia loyal to renegade Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and have detained 14 others in overnight fighting near Najaf.

Late Monday, members of al-Sadr's Mehdi Army attempted to ambush a U.S. convoy with small-arms fire. No American forces were injured in the incident.

The U.S. military began an offensive Sunday to retake control of parts of the city, reclaiming the governor's palace from al-Sadr's control.

Al-Sadr, who is wanted in connection with the killing of a rival cleric last year, launched an uprising against U.S. troops in April. Since then, coalition forces have cracked down on the cleric's strongholds while trying to avoid religious sites.

Al-Sadr is believed to be in Najaf, where his militia remains in control of much of the Shiite holy city. He travels to nearby Kufa to deliver weekly sermons Fridays.
Saddam handover may occur by June 30

Salem Chalabi, the man heading the Iraqi war crimes tribunal, said Tuesday the coalition is "considering" the possibility of handing over Saddam Hussein to Iraqis before the June 30 date for sovereignty.

But, he told CNN, he is not sure if it is ready to do that.

Earlier, Kuwaiti government sources told CNN they heard Chalabi say the United States would hand over Saddam to the Iraqis before they get sovereignty from the coalition. Wire services issued similar reports.

But Chalabi claimed he was misquoted and misunderstood. He said there is still a lot of work that defense attorneys for Saddam will have to do and it is likely he would not be the first of the suspects tried.

He said the tribunal would try to have his trial completed by the end of next year.

An al Qaeda-linked Web site posted video Tuesday of an American man in Iraq speaking briefly before being beheaded by his masked captors.[/quote]

there is a video link out there, butafter i watched the video, i figured i wouldnt put it up since it was way too gruesome.

i think that we got what we deserved, with us invading iraq and all. We b**ch and moan about our casualties and losses due to the battle, but the fact is: the only reason we go into other countries to "improve upon them" is because america wants to be the most powerful nation in the world. We are afraid of what we might become if we dont go and govern other people, distilling our hatrid and remorse into other people of the world.
As for this article, none of this would have happened had we not wanted to "govern" the middle east.

well, thats what i think. What do all of you out there think?

[Transtic Nerve]

I think it's pretty obvious what to think.

They aren't afraid to sacrafice themselves to kill other american soldiers, why would they feel guilty about beheading one? Bush wanted war, he got it. It's how war is done.

[NeoNabishen]

Everything is political man. We have this (we have to help everybody thing that really sucks) we should look out for number one. Witch is what we were doing come to think of it. OIL baby, yah. But countries and civilizations have been doing this forever. I don’t think it is going to change. So I try to live my life the way I want, and give the finger to the man.
The world sucks.
Peace out man. :cool:

[xmystic_silverx]

[size=1]I don't know what to think. One minute you think we're the good guys and the next, we do something total barbarric and we don't know who's good or not. Bush wanted war, and he got it. If you ask me, I think he should just call back all of our troops. We aren't accomplishing anything accept more american deaths.
Its pretty sad, really. Everything that is happening and now about Berg and Bush still doesn't realize that the Iraqi's don't want us there. We should leave them alone. Its none of our business of how they rule their country.[/size]

[Guest Spike88]

[FONT=Impact]You people really have a lot of nerve. Every thing may be political be at least amercans go for humiliation rather than inhuman treatment of innocent people. ALl the news has the stuff about how harshly those people who took pictures of the Iraqi prisoners. Firsts things first the Iraqi's who we took pictures of were guilty thats why they were in jail. Secondly it was humiliating but it wasn't brutal murder. It was nothing short of imaturity. This has nothing to do with wether we wanted war or not. The majority of out population still want the war. I for one agree with it. Another thing is someone doesn't give up their 3.4 million dollar football contract for something that is a lost cause. We supposedly bring our wicked ways. I don't freakin think so. Taking pictures of naked Iraqis is one thing but brutally murdering a man who there to help clean up the mess the army made is not. You know all this will do is incite americans to want the war even more. So in my opinion watch the news read your history books and see what happened the last time stuff went on in a country like that was. You'll find out a guy ran it by the name of Hitler. Look what happened by sitting back and doing nothing. Sure we lose lives to regulate crazy leaders like Sadam but we same millions for the thousands we lose. Be a Partiot and supposrt your nation if not your nation won't supprt you. Well, that's just how I feel later folks.[/FONT]

[Transtic Nerve]

[quote name='Spike88][FONT=Impact']You people really have a lot of nerve. Every thing may be political be at least amercans go for humiliation rather than inhuman treatment of innocent people. ALl the news has the stuff about how harshly those people who took pictures of the Iraqi prisoners. Firsts things first the Iraqi's who we took pictures of were guilty thats why they were in jail. Secondly it was humiliating but it wasn't brutal murder. It was nothing short of imaturity. This has nothing to do with wether we wanted war or not. The majority of out population still want the war. I for one agree with it. Another thing is someone doesn't give up their 3.4 million dollar football contract for something that is a lost cause. We supposedly bring our wicked ways. I don't freakin think so. Taking pictures of naked Iraqis is one thing but brutally murdering a man who there to help clean up the mess the army made is not. You know all this will do is incite americans to want the war even more. So in my opinion watch the news read your history books and see what happened the last time stuff went on in a country like that was. You'll find out a guy ran it by the name of Hitler. Look what happened by sitting back and doing nothing. Sure we lose lives to regulate crazy leaders like Sadam but we same millions for the thousands we lose. Be a Partiot and supposrt your nation if not your nation won't supprt you. Well, that's just how I feel later folks.[/FONT][/quote]

First off, many of the prisoners that had their picture taken weren't guilty and many of them have sense been released because they were imprisoned for the wrong reason.

Second, your president wanted a war on terrorism didn't he? Well with that war on terrorism comes terrorism. Maybe you need a dictionary to what terrorism is, but let me explain it in simple terms for those of you who just don't seem to get it. Terrorism is senseless acts on usually innocent people in order to achieve a goal, want, etc. (If you want an exact dictionary definition: [i]The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.[/i]) You wanted a war you said, well this is your war. Since you want it, you have to accept the consequences of war and a war on terrorism has it's terrorist consequences. Did you just forget the meaning of war too?

Third, I don't have to be a patriot because my country doesn't support me anyway. And its in my country's bill of rights it says I have the right to say what I want to say, and just because YOU don't like what I like to say, doesn't mean I'm not a patriot. It doesn't mean i'm not a good american, and it certainly doesn't mean you're someone who's better than me.

You certainly have alot of nerve coming here an acting like you're the best american when it's quite obvious you lack the intellectual ability to completely understand the situation.

[eleanor]

[i]...the only reason we go into other countries to "improve upon them" is because america wants to be the most powerful nation in the world. We are afraid of what we might become if we dont go and govern other people, distilling our hatrid and remorse into other people of the world.
As for this article, none of this would have happened had we not wanted to "govern" the middle east.[/i]

[color=firebrick]Being America comes with arrogance and power, so America can basically do whatever they hell it wants, so I agree with you on that.

Heaven knows I hate the Bush administration, but I also get irritated to see people complaining about how Bush sits around doing nothing. I mean, what the crap? How can the president of the United States be sitting around and doing nothing during a war? It's impossible. You can't expect Bush to keep tabs on everyone who goes to Iraq, Nick Berg was not even going there on military terms. He went there by himself to see if he could help fix telecommunications. Yes, out of about a billion people in the US, George W. Bush [b]must[/b] look after and each and everyone one of us. His job is to lead America, not to personally care for each person who lives in America. I mean, what? Did you think no one is WWII was captured and tortured and killed? Al Qaeda does not more war, they want Americans to get the hell out of Iraq, if you've been keeping up with anything lately.

Sexually harrassing and cruelly breaking down innocent people forced to go into jail is about as bad as dying, and is was because of those pictures that Nick was killed.

And what are you blabbing about we didn't do anything to stop Hitler. We [b]went to war for five years[/b] to stop Hitler and the Axis powers. [/color]

[Deedlit]

[font=Impact][quote name='Spike88]You people really have a lot of nerve. Every thing may be political be at least amercans go for humiliation rather than inhuman treatment of innocent people. ALl the news has the stuff about how harshly those people who took pictures of the Iraqi prisoners. Firsts things first the Iraqi's who we took pictures of were guilty thats why they were in jail. Secondly it was humiliating but it wasn't brutal murder.[/font'][font=Impact][/quote][/font]

[color=#009966]If you pondered on the fact that the American soldiers took and submitted degrading images to the public of the prisoners [i]and[/i] that the American soldiers sexually assulted them [i]while smiling[/i], then you should have realized that the American soldiers were more inhuman to the Iraqi prisoners than they were to us.

No, it was not "brutal murder." They gave him a quick death, and if you think that's bad, just think of all the other tortures they could do. They didn't split his knee caps or twist his elbows out of its sockets, they didn't burn his eyes with a hot iron, they didn't shove sharp knives under his finger nails--- trust me, there are alot of worse things they could've done.

Yes, it was wrong that they killed an innocent man, but alot of things are wrong in the world today, aren't there?

Bush wanted to start a war, and it's a packaged deal. You get it all, the killing, the terrorism, the deaths, or nothing. He got it.[/color]

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]Every death is a trajedy (unless we're talking about some one like Hitler etc... But that's a different issue.). Whether the loss of life is on the American or Iraqi side of the war makes no difference.
In stating that the murder of Nicholas Berg was a means of revenge for the mal-treatment of Iraqi prisoners, those who killed him are stating that a group of people's pride is on the same level as some one's life (if not higher). This enfuriates me. The nature of this event is disgusting, the manner in which it was preformed is disgusting, and the most disgusting thing of all is how a young man's death is being propagandized in such a manner. (I feel the same way about Iraqi deaths, btw.)

Honestly, I think the U.S. should pack up. They're not about to "bring peace to the people of Iraq" any time soon, which isn't helping cover up the desire for the monopolization of oil reserves.
American soldiers are dying for a complete lack of results. Iraqis are dying for a complete lack of results.

I think the best approach to take would be to simply say, "You don't want our help, you want us dead? Fine. We're leaving."

War is stupid, especially when it's obvious it isn't going anywhere.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[xmystic_silverx]

[quote name='Spike88][FONT=Impact']You people really have a lot of nerve. Every thing may be political be at least amercans go for humiliation rather than inhuman treatment of innocent people. ALl the news has the stuff about how harshly those people who took pictures of the Iraqi prisoners. Firsts things first the Iraqi's who we took pictures of were guilty thats why they were in jail. Secondly it was humiliating but it wasn't brutal murder. It was nothing short of imaturity. This has nothing to do with wether we wanted war or not. The majority of out population still want the war. I for one agree with it. Another thing is someone doesn't give up their 3.4 million dollar football contract for something that is a lost cause. We supposedly bring our wicked ways. I don't freakin think so. Taking pictures of naked Iraqis is one thing but brutally murdering a man who there to help clean up the mess the army made is not. You know all this will do is incite americans to want the war even more. So in my opinion watch the news read your history books and see what happened the last time stuff went on in a country like that was. You'll find out a guy ran it by the name of Hitler. Look what happened by sitting back and doing nothing. Sure we lose lives to regulate crazy leaders like Sadam but we same millions for the thousands we lose. Be a Partiot and supposrt your nation if not your nation won't supprt you. Well, that's just how I feel later folks.[/FONT][/quote]

[size=1]Maybe you don't watch the news, and I guess you failed to notice that our soldiers aren't all and kind like you might think. They have slaughtered some of Iraq's people too. And for your information, I have read my history book, thank you.
Sure, we have helped other countries, but Iraq does not [I]want[/I] us there.

And I do support my nation. I was just saying that Bush should get our soldiers out of there, before more casualties happen like the one with Berg. If you read anything about this, you would know that they only killed Berg because it was a sort of [I]revenge[/I] for what some of our soldiers are doing. So you see, if we weren't there in the first place, this would have never happened.

I support our troops and yes, they are strong and brave and will risk their life for their countries, but their have been [I]too many[/I] risks and deaths. How dare you say that I don't support my nation and that I should read my history book? I have a geography teacher there right now.

And when you say we gain millions for the thousands we lose, thats almost the same thing as telling someone who's family member who has died in Iraq, that its okay because ya know what? We will replace your brother/sister/mom/dad with someone else.[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Spike88]You people really have a lot of nerve. Every thing may be political be at least amercans go for humiliation rather than inhuman treatment of innocent people.ALl the news has the stuff about how harshly those people who took pictures of the Iraqi prisoners. Firsts things first the Iraqi's who we took pictures of were guilty thats why they were in jail. Secondly it was humiliating but it wasn't brutal murder. It was nothing short of imaturity.
[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]You have some nerve as well. I'd hate to see what you consider inhumane treatment, but let me clue you in on something. Reguardless of where the POW is located according to the GEneva Convetion you are not allowed to torture or photograph POWs. It doesn't matter which side did it in the first place, they were violating international law by doing so.

You call it immaturity, well, for the sake of these soldiers immaturity they are facing court marshall for violating GEneva Conventions. And as a backlash, soldiers and American civilians who are completely unconnected to these incidents are facing the consequences. Does it still seem right to you?

[quote name='spike88']This has nothing to do with wether we wanted war or not. The majority of out population still want the war. I for one agree with it. Another thing is someone doesn't give up their 3.4 million dollar football contract for something that is a lost cause. We supposedly bring our wicked ways. I don't freakin think so. Taking pictures of naked Iraqis is one thing but brutally murdering a man who there to help clean up the mess the army made is not. You know all this will do is incite americans to want the war even more.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]THe majority of your population must not include recently polled people.(the war has a 29% approval rating) My husband's sitting over in Iraq right now doing his little radio thing (1 cav 13 Sig BN Alpha OUtlaws Hooah!) and the only thing he's thinking about with the war is HAzardous duty and separation pay. I know I don't agree with this war, I'd rather have my husband home and still have trouble paying bills than have him fighting for some president who's nothing but a war monger and be able to buy myself a new car. The only reason I see of us being over there is so Bush can get revenge for his daddy. Go ahead and call me unpartiotic, but take care to read my signature and remember, I'm not against the soldiers, I'm against the war.

As for the guy who gave up his football career. He was serving over in Afghanistan for one and for another thing maybe he had his one reasons to join up. Besides, he was a Ranger many of them are crazy anyway.

The beheading of this civilian contractor was a result of photographing Iraqi POWs. I believe that photographing Iraqi POWs was done as revenge for them photographing their POWs, but we'll never know.

As for Americans wanting this war even more after these events, I believe the opposite will be true. Americans will be less willing to risk their sons, daughters, mothers fathers husbands and wives as a result of these events.[/color]

[quote name='spike88']So in my opinion watch the news read your history books and see what happened the last time stuff went on in a country like that was. You'll find out a guy ran it by the name of Hitler. Look what happened by sitting back and doing nothing. Sure we lose lives to regulate crazy leaders like Sadam but we same millions for the thousands we lose. Be a Partiot and supposrt your nation if not your nation won't supprt you. Well, that's just how I feel later folks.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Telling me to re-read history books-I know this response is rather inconsequential to the post, but I was in AP history in High school with an A average in that class. I also took a college US history course and passed that with a A, but as I said, that's irrelevent. As for the news, if you only get your information from one source you'll wind up horribly ubalanced.

As for saying if we lose 1,000 we gain 1 million. Tell that to the people who have lost their loved ones, we'll replace him/her for free. A person isn't a lamp or even a puppy. That's a rather insensitive remark to make to people you don't know. My husband is serving over there right now (as I keep mentioning) DOn't try to tell me he can be replaced.

However if you still feel that way, I'm sure you can find my husband's friend Calvin's mom and tell her that you can replace him. Calvin's unit came under attack last year a week after they arrived in Bagdad. Yes, he's alive, but he's in the mental ward now.

IF Saddam posed such a threat to the US as BUsh claims he did, where are the WMD? The reason we sat back in 1939 anddid nothing was because the US was involved in Isolationism which ended when Japan bombed pearl HArbor. And if I remember correctly Hitler didn't run Japan or Italy for that matter he was just a large part of a puzzle. We went after 3 countries after that and had allies as well.

But forget about that war for a while, because that one ended well for us. What about Vietnam? What was the need there? IF you ask my dad he'll say oil and not to defeat communism. Which BTW we didn't. We left the country in a hurry after years of heavy losses.

AS for being a partiot. I am a patriot At the very least more of one than you. I'm supporting my husband over in Iraq and neither one of us care much for this violence. Our entire nation has nothing to do with this war. This war is between the president and his beliefs and as one one my quotes says-Patriotisms means to stand behind the country. It does not mean to stand behind the president.

Okay, I've said that much on that remark. Now allow me to voice my opinions on the beheading.

I find that disturbing that the war has now come to this, but what are civilians doing over there in the first place? They have no business being in a war zone. If civilians were guaranteed military protection in war zones, then maybe the spouses of military personnel would be allowed to accompany their spouses in to the war zones. But they're not guaranteed protection, just higher paychecks.

It's sad that something like this has happened, but were any of us honestly expecting the Iraqi people to welcome us with open arms. If any of us were, we're sadly mistaken. I just hope this whole mess is over soon.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

[quote name='Liquid]I think Iraq can help itself. let them attack us. one more bomb and i say, heck, we bomb them all. It's not our fault that some of them are jackasses! We [I]Cannot[/I] stand for this! I really wish a compromise is possible, [I]but peace Cannot last forever, and never will![/I] Soldiers can be like others! They're not all the [I']Rurouni Kenshin type of hero! They can be drunk, screwed up perverted men! they can rape someone if they wanted! They aren't all perfect![/I][/quote]

You need to cut down on your posting. You double posted and everything you've posted has been a reiteration of something someone else said. I know you want to make your point, but you're being immature about it int he way you're posts are written. Try to write more maturely. Don't double post, and in the case of your first two posts, try to post more than one sentence. Esspecially in a mature topic like this.

And use the edit button.

And you're not just a new member, you're also 11 years old and immature and not very smart like most 11 years old.

[Adora]

First things first. I am not a citizen of the US nor the Middle East. I am an Australia who was against my country being involved in this War straight off the bat. So if you don't like that, don't read this.

I think this recent issue with the torture and humiliation is reflective of the sheer cultural ignorance and bad administration of the entire affair. And the incredibly bad move of the 'Coalition' that they screwed over the UN. Now we have killers, reservists and bored soldiers in a situation where to improve [i]anything[/i] you need well-trained police forces. Armies are designed to destroy, not police. The longer they stay in there the worse it will get.

George Bush Snr. said it best in 1998;
[indent]To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero? assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability.[/indent] Given, they found Saddam's hidey-hole, but he's right about the instability. These actions they make in the name of "Anti-terrorism" whilst happily funding the Saudi's expansion of Wahhabist doctrine (the doctrine behind most Radical Islamist Terrorism) makes this whole song-and-dance an empty sham, and I hate to tell US citizens out there, has made you and your people in these areas bigger targets (ie- they get beheaded like that poor guy recently). The terrorists go for foreign interests in predominantly Muslim countries (such as the hushed-up bomb attack in Saudi Arabia lately) because the great evildoers who must be destroyed are [i]not[/i] infidels. The infidels are simply a side-project to their bigger mission against [i]apostates[/i] who are the most hated by this certain branch of Islam. The apostates are the ones who do deals with infidels, who corrupt Islam whilst still "pretending" to be Muslims, or those who de-convert. They have the perfect belief system set up so that the more you interfere with their areas, the more you will attract individuals who are part of this doctrine to fight against you.

[quote]This has nothing to do with wether we wanted war or not. The majority of out population still want the war.[/quote]
I never get these kinds of statements. Even if it was true, who cares? Has anyone asked the Iraqi's if [i]they[/i] approve of their country being invaded by a bunch of incompetent US soldiers and economist administrators (Paul Bremmer is a moron. Period. You [b]do not[/b] get up in front of International TV when you are in such as position as that and act like a 16 yr old who just scored a touchdown). If I was an Iraqi woman in the country at present, I would be very non-approving, since now I could barely walk the streets without fear of kidnapping, rape, or murder (and before anyone makes cultural assumptions, the words from their own mouths are "This never used to happen when Saddam was in power. We could walk the streets at 2 am and not be afraid". Don't believe me? [url=http://hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0703/]Read [/url]the [url=http://www.hrw.org/update/2003/07/#4]reports[/url] yourself). I'll say it again, Police, not Military, is desperately needed.

[xmystic_silverx]

[quote name='Liquid']Oh, and mr. Gay member, shove it, ya heartless idiot. can ya read??? NEW MEMBER! I'm not good at this! And go to school! only 2 year olds can make a mistake like 'leik', or 'Mateur', or Esspecialy! learn to type! If I can learn not to double post, you can learn to speak with more kindlness! :mad: *kindness! Whoops! typo![/quote]

[size=1]*looks at words 'New Member'* Yes. I see it, but on the Otaku Boards, double posting is considered spam. Im not going to be the next 'Mr.Gay' and shove off. If you don't want to be yelled again, I suggest you look at the edit button and put your two posts together. ^^ [/size]

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Transtic Nerve]I think it's pretty obvious what to think.

They aren't afraid to sacrafice themselves to kill other american soldiers, why would they feel guilty about beheading one? Bush wanted war, he got it. It's how war is done.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]First off, the complete lack of emotional response to such a barbaric act astounds me. [i]A twenty-six year old man was slaughtered like a pig in front of the whole world, and his corpse dumped near a bridge.[/i]

Secondly, [b]this man was not an American soldier[/b]. He was a civilian contractor who went to Iraq to assist in rebuilding a nation that'd suffered under a brutal dictator for decades.

The United States has done nothing but attempt to help the Iraqi people. We toppled their oppressive government, have rebuilt ninety percent of their nation out of our own pocket, are policing their nation free of charge and we're helping them set up a government. The ten percent of the population, along with Iranian agents and PLO/Hamas/Al Quaeda terrorists, are working to upset that. They'll be crushed in time, and do not have the support of the people.

This isn't how war is fought. This is terrorism directed at innocent civilians. These men are disgracing themselves, their religion, and every moral standard every civilized society.[/color]

[Falkon]

ok i believe all of you opinions are valid, but i have to agree with some more than others. For those of you who dont already know, we are treating Iraqi prisoners horribly, just as we have seen them do unto us. We are tying them up and f**king abusing them, sexually, brutally, whatever. I agree with what most people are saying here: we need to pull the f**k back from the middle east and deal with our own f***ing problems. sorry about the swearing, but i am quite pissed at the state our nation is in right now.

I quote the following from my brother at another site today :

[quote=SoF-KonIT]
to start off, yes, i do appreciate the freedoms i've been granted as an american. as such, i would also like to take those liberties bestowed upon me and use them to express myself.

yes, i have been round and round this discussion elsewhere as well, and i'd rather not get more into, cuz i ****** hate politics.

the point of them killing the guy, was because he was american, and because they don't like how americans live. americans take up more than 70 percent of the world resources, and we have less than 30 percent of the world population. reason number 1 most countries hate us. they killed the man because he represented america.

sure, i'm not saying saddam committed many wrongs. but, call me a bad human, i don't shed many tears for other people dying. death is a fact of life. sure, saddam was condemned by every member of the UN, so does that make it right for the US to violate previous stated UN agreements? yes, he did act against the UN by invading Iraq with 'little evidence', which turned into 'no evidence'.

i'm not saying the iraqis are necessarily worse off. but there have been innocent civilian deaths, so are they better off dead than when they were alive last year or two years ago?

ooh joy, let's rejoice at how successful we have rebuilt their government, while people here in america are dying on the streets day in and day out, people with college degrees don't even have jobs. but hey, iraq's government is taken care of.

yeah, if there is a need for america to meddle in other countries affairs, then go for it (vietnam). but when you make up reasons to invade a country, and blindfold your nation to it...that's not how a country is to be run.


QUOTE

Citizens lived in fear from Saddam and his sons, they killed thousands of people.



which justifies us sending thousands of people into the war machine to die.


QUOTE

Your talk about we wouldnt have done anything if they didnt have oil? Thats a load of crap. For awhile we were making sure they didnt sent their own oil plants on fire.



do i really need to explain this?

anyway, i'm not saying the united states is the worst country ever. it's just run a little bit backwards in my opinion. shouldn't we make sure our own country is in good shape before we bother fixing other people's for them?

as far as the weapons of mass destruction, didn't condoleeza rice just have an interview blatantly discussing the misinformation behind all this on national television?


PS - i do believe it has been proven bush was a cokehead at one time. i can see it in the way he acts, thinks, presents himself...but hey, everyone's done drugs

i could go on quoting him all day about valid points, but i just wanna get a little example out there for you all :P

[amibasuki]

[color=#008000][quote]the complete lack of emotional response to such a barbaric act astounds me. [/quote][/color]
[font=Arial][size=2][color=black]at least I'm not the only one who's more than a little surprised. it would make more sense if they killed one of the people who was actually abusing Iraqi prisoners, if they were to do it out of justice, if anything. but they took an innocent man who had nothing to do with any of the brutality that happened at POW camps and killed him in order to threaten America and to satisfy whims of revenge.[/color][/size][/font]

[font=Arial][size=2]I really don't have an opinion as to whether the American military should stay or get out; there are so many different points of view floating around (no telling how biased some of them are) that I'm not going to make any firm opinions on it as of yet. but that's completely besides the point. if the protesters/etc. have a problem with the American military, then they should stick to fighting the American military instead of bringing people who don't have anything to do with the fighting into it as bait. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial][size=2]the fact that some people don't care if one of the sides purposefully kills an innocent person out of something like revenge is sad to me. America isn't exactly innocent either; but if people can get worked up about Iraqi prisoners being mistreated (who are supposedly a mixture of both innocent and criminal people), then how is it that someone who had nothing to do with the situation can be beheaded to 'get back at Americans', and it's no big deal? it doesn't matter how 'quick and painless' it was. the fact is that he was still killed when he didn't do anything to deserve it. it might be generally common for stuff like this to happen in a war, but just because it happens on more than one occasion doesn't mean that it's right and we should just settle and be okay with it. [/size][/font]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][color=darkred]Screw reading all of your replies... but here is my opinion.

You can see a tit-for-tat mentality in here. I mean, really, the treatment of Iraqi prisoners was a thoroughly disgracing act of inhumane treatment. Imagine yourself, naked and beaten on a leash, having your picture taken of you. Or lying naked with a pile of other naked people, humiliated and degraded. Or being forced to masturbate for a camera. Imagine the shame.

Is it fair what the Iraqi's did? No. Berg had nothing to do with the war... he was a bystander.

Is it understandable? Yes. Is it to be expected? Yes. Is it all a part of this war that America wants so badly? Yes.

Ultimately, the repsonsibility filters back...but there are often many sides and views to an event.[/size][/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green]First off, the complete lack of emotional response to such a barbaric act astounds me. [i]A twenty-six year old man was slaughtered like a pig in front of the whole world, and his corpse dumped near a bridge.[/color][/i'] [/quote]
I'm terribly sorry, i didn't realize I was required to have an emotional responce to this. Did you know that a woman, near where I live, murdered her 3 children yesterday? Or that we average over 18,000 murders a year? Yet not all of you seem to be uterly outraged or having emotional responses to those. I fail to see your point.

[quote][color=green]Secondly, [b]this man was not an American soldier[/b]. He was a civilian contractor who went to Iraq to assist in rebuilding a nation that'd suffered under a brutal dictator for decades. [/color][/quote]
I appologize for assuming he was a soldier, not that it makes one bit a difference anyway.

[quote][color=green]This isn't how war is fought. This is terrorism directed at innocent civilians. [/color][/QUOTE]
This is not how a normal war is fough, this is how a war on Terrorim is fought. You all wanted this war on terrorism, and well look you all got it and now you're outraged that this happened. Give me an F-ing break. Did you actually think that terrorist weren't going to capture, hold hostage, and execute someone during all this? What did you expect? Us to waltz in their on our big giant horses and trample all who opposed without anything happening? Right, you can take the train back to fantasy world now, cause this is the real world. And int he real world, deranged killers exist. People who think destroying the US will lead them to 75 virgins in heaven exist. People who kill children and women exist. WHy is this any different? Why do all of you get upset all of the sudden. Nothing is different. Nothing is different except for the fact people are just now understanding what war means and people are now just realizing what the consequences of war are, and people are now just realizing how stupid they are.

[Falkon]

ya know, i think a good thing for all of you people out there would be to see Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine, if you havent already. This is a great movie in pointing out facts of life in the US and whatnot. It compares our violent nature to that of other countries, like canada, for example. we are so much more violent and insecure than anybody else in the world. And parents blame it all on video games and movies.

The fact that video games and movies instill violence into all kids is NOT TRUE. Video games are a great way to get out aggressions that have built up throughout the day. Look at Japan for example. They have less murders per year than we do here in the US, and they MAKE all of the damn video games. This say anything to anyone?

Video games and movies are just excuses, as is music, which is a freedom of expression :love:

[the_fizz]

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=royalblue]I know that war sucks, but to see this on TV just makes it real and hurt even more. I mean I know this stuff happens, but WHY do they have to show it over and over and over. I know they want us to know what is going on over there, but we should have never gone over there in the first place (It should have been dealt with the first time we where there!!) Stupid Pres. Bush left it undone! [/color][/size][/font][font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=royalblue]We need to bring our people back! Let them kill each off over there and not US people. [/color][/size][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=#4169e1]Ok I know I'm getting mad and I should not get mad, but hey my heart go out to his family in their time of lost. It sucks to loose a child!!!!!!!!!!!!![/color][/size][/font]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Transtic Nerve']I'm terribly sorry, i didn't realize I was required to have an emotional responce to this. Did you know that a woman, near where I live, murdered her 3 children yesterday? Or that we average over 18,000 murders a year? Yet not all of you seem to be uterly outraged or having emotional responses to those. I fail to see your point.[/quote]

[color=green]I'm not asking you to bawl your eyes out, but I'd like to see some compassion. If you cant offer that, how about regret? Or respect for this man, at the very least.

The way you've been talking about this man, it's as if you feel he got what he deserved.

You fail to see the point of respecting human life?

That says a lot about you TN?[/color]

[quote name='Transtic Nerve'] I appologize for assuming he was a soldier, not that it makes one bit a difference anyway.[/quote]

[color=green]You've just stated that it doesn?t make a difference whether or not you target civilians or military forces during war.

Obviously, there[i]is[/i] a difference.

This man was an innocent civilian, who was killed brutally by some of the most disgusting people on this earth. His only crime was being American.[/color]

[QUOTE=Transtic Nerve]
This is not how a normal war is fough, this is how a war on Terrorim is fought. You all wanted this war on terrorism, and well look you all got it and now you're outraged that this happened. Give me an F-ing break. Did you actually think that terrorist weren't going to capture, hold hostage, and execute someone during all this? What did you expect? Us to waltz in their on our big giant horses and trample all who opposed without anything happening? Right, you can take the train back to fantasy world now, cause this is the real world. And int he real world, deranged killers exist. People who think destroying the US will lead them to 75 virgins in heaven exist. People who kill children and women exist. WHy is this any different? Why do all of you get upset all of the sudden. Nothing is different. Nothing is different except for the fact people are just now understanding what war means and people are now just realizing what the consequences of war are, and people are now just realizing how stupid they are.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]No. This is not how war is fought. This is how terrorists attempt to scare the free world into letting them further damage a region of the world that has a real chance of forming a society that recognizes the rights of every person for the first time in decades.

You've got an incredibly dark world view TN. Lighten up.[/color]

[quote name='the_fizz][font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=royalblue]I know they want us to know what is going on over there, but we should have never gone over there in the first place (It should have been dealt with the first time we where there!!) Stupid Pres. Bush left it undone![/color][/size'][/font][/quote]

[color=green]Monday morning quarterback?[/color]

[quote name='the_fizz][font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=royalblue]We need to bring our people back! Let them kill each off over there and not US people. [/color][/size'][/font][/quote]

[color=green]Yes, let's just bring all of the US Soldiers in Iraq home. Then all of the Iranian radicals, PLO types, Hamas agents and Al Quaeda terrorists can take over the country. They can quash the growing prosperity of that nation and turn it into another Afghanistan.

Instead of fighting these people in Iraq, we'll be fighting them on the streets of America. If we leave the terrorists alone, they will come to us.

I'd personally like to deal with them in the Middle East.[/color]

[Guest Spike88]

[QUOTE=Transtic Nerve]First off, many of the prisoners that had their picture taken weren't guilty and many of them have sense been released because they were imprisoned for the wrong reason.

Second, your president wanted a war on terrorism didn't he? Well with that war on terrorism comes terrorism. Maybe you need a dictionary to what terrorism is, but let me explain it in simple terms for those of you who just don't seem to get it. Terrorism is senseless acts on usually innocent people in order to achieve a goal, want, etc. (If you want an exact dictionary definition: [i]The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.[/i]) You wanted a war you said, well this is your war. Since you want it, you have to accept the consequences of war and a war on terrorism has it's terrorist consequences. Did you just forget the meaning of war too?

Third, I don't have to be a patriot because my country doesn't support me anyway. And its in my country's bill of rights it says I have the right to say what I want to say, and just because YOU don't like what I like to say, doesn't mean I'm not a patriot. It doesn't mean i'm not a good american, and it certainly doesn't mean you're someone who's better than me.

You certainly have alot of nerve coming here an acting like you're the best american when it's quite obvious you lack the intellectual ability to completely understand the situation.[/QUOTE]

Thats all great about the definition of terrorism but it is you who obviously doesn't have the intellectual ability to completly understand the situation. First off all you contridicted yourself when you said your country doesn't supposrt you. Hello, the taxes americans pay are your support. The people is the country I wasn't refering to the government itself. THe reason you contradicted yourself in the very next sentence saying that the Bill of Rights says you can say what you want. Who makes that possible this country and it's people and the people before them. Go to any other country in the world and try and say anything you want. I tell you what go to Iraq start saying anything you want and guess what they will drive by shoot you in the head burn your body and danggle it from a bridge for display. Your country supports you more than you know it does. It saves lives everyday by fighting wars. It has probably even saved your life by fighting and putting up precautions. Yes our countries do stupid things sometimes I have no doubt about that. I'm not saying I'm a better person a better american or even a better patriot all I wanted to put across was my view. What I think is I see many people compplaining about what is going on and protesting and everything. That's fine because our country is fighting to defend the freedom of speech which you and I use right now and which you hold in highest regard. Great pull out your dictionary and tell me what terrorism is. I know what it is. It however can not apply in Ethics. Did we become terrorist to come and take Sadam out of power. You better believe we did. The point is not that. The point is we are helping these people the same people who Sadam sentence to death by the thousands and are radical muslim groups whom he disliked are now killing us. We did them a favor and now they want us to leave so they can take over and persecute others like Sadam did to them. Don't you find that a bit Ironic. As for they want us out that's not true we have the majority vote in poles that were taken all over the country and they want us to stay so that the radical groups don't persecute them and take over. Just a few thousand in a country of millions cause problems. If we pulled out of the war it would be like handing over the power to another sadam. Do I agree with the pictures taken no. I plainly said that. I might have missed a few facts that some of the prisoners were innocent and thats my bad ok I'll throw that one out. They are all being punished for a crime. In Sadam's governement and if these radicals were to take power would those people be punished for their crimes. We all know the answer is no. So better american no. Better person no. Better patriot no. I don't think that was what I was pointing out and I am sorry if it came across that way. I'm just glad I'm and American and at the end of the day wether I like you or not I'm glad you are one too.

[HOTpage2004]

We all have different feelings about this war, and all the responses on this thread proves it. In a way, we're all right and we're all wrong. My pop's always said that theres to sides to everything. But my feelings for all the beheading and abuses are so confusing. I know that we're being told lies some where or another, but I have trouble figuring out where. I know it's gotta be the congress or presedent, sumthin' like that. Sometimes I wonder if that guy was really beheaded cause of what we did to them, or just cause there blood-thirsy. But by brother said that theres always been blood-thirsty mobs and all the al quida (forgive me if I mispell) are, are just recarnations of Satan himself. Theirs always been terrorism and always will be. I think I'm correct, but Bush has called this The War on Terrorism. This will be the war that we will fail. And if we get our troops out of Iraq, than we'll just be another target. Think about it, lets say your always being chases by bullies, and your always running away, than when you do finnaly stand up to them, you get hurt badly. Guess what I'm trying to say is that, if you keep running, your gonna get deeper into the hole. I have a feeling that if we run away, we're all gonna be sorry.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]I'm not asking you to bawl your eyes out, but I'd like to see some compassion. If you cant offer that, how about regret? Or respect for this man, at the very least.

The way you've been talking about this man, it's as if you feel he got what he deserved.

You fail to see the point of respecting human life?

That says a lot about you TN?[/color][/quote]
From the information I have heard, this man was in Iraq under his own will and under the obvious conclusions that Iraq and surrounding countries are not the most safe place in the world. As far as I'm concerned, he went there at his own risk. And that is complete stupidity. It's not that I'm happy he died, I never said that, I just don't think this is anything to get completely outraged about. I respect human life when human life deserves to be respected, but if he is going to go to Iraq, which is an obviously dangerous country, then he has no respect for his own life, why should I have respect for it.

[quote][color=green]You've just stated that it doesn?t make a difference whether or not you target civilians or military forces during war.[/color] [/quote]
There isn't a difference whether he's a soldier or not pretaining to MY POINT, not during a war. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

[quote][color=green]This man was an innocent civilian, who was killed brutally by some of the most disgusting people on this earth. His only crime was being American.[/color][/quote]
And those 3 children who were murdered? Was their only crime being children. I don't see you crying over them. They were MURDERED byt heir mother. Three of them. Why isn't there a topic about that?

[quote][color=green]No. This is not how war is fought. This is how terrorists attempt to scare the free world into letting them further damage a region of the world that has a real chance of forming a society that recognizes the rights of every person for the first time in decades.

You've got an incredibly dark world view TN. Lighten up.[/color][/quote]
I said this isn't how a normal war is fought. You can quote that above if you'd like. I said this is how a war on terrorism is fought. A war on terrorism is fought with terrorism. Hello? Did you miss that part of the definition? Terrorist do terrorism, therefor a war on terrorism is bound to bring out terrorist. If you wanted a war on terrorism, how can you not expect to have terrorist activities taking place? Thats just plain stupid.

[quote]Thats all great about the definition of terrorism but it is you who obviously doesn't have the intellectual ability to completly understand the situation. First off all you contridicted yourself when you said your country doesn't supposrt you. Hello, the taxes americans pay are your support. The people is the country I wasn't refering to the government itself. THe reason you contradicted yourself in the very next sentence saying that the Bill of Rights says you can say what you want. Who makes that possible this country and it's people and the people before them. Go to any other country in the world and try and say anything you want. I tell you what go to Iraq start saying anything you want and guess what they will drive by shoot you in the head burn your body and danggle it from a bridge for display. Your country supports you more than you know it does. It saves lives everyday by fighting wars. It has probably even saved your life by fighting and putting up precautions. Yes our countries do stupid things sometimes I have no doubt about that. I'm not saying I'm a better person a better american or even a better patriot all I wanted to put across was my view. What I think is I see many people compplaining about what is going on and protesting and everything. That's fine because our country is fighting to defend the freedom of speech which you and I use right now and which you hold in highest regard. Great pull out your dictionary and tell me what terrorism is. I know what it is. It however can not apply in Ethics. Did we become terrorist to come and take Sadam out of power. You better believe we did. The point is not that. The point is we are helping these people the same people who Sadam sentence to death by the thousands and are radical muslim groups whom he disliked are now killing us. We did them a favor and now they want us to leave so they can take over and persecute others like Sadam did to them. Don't you find that a bit Ironic. As for they want us out that's not true we have the majority vote in poles that were taken all over the country and they want us to stay so that the radical groups don't persecute them and take over. Just a few thousand in a country of millions cause problems. If we pulled out of the war it would be like handing over the power to another sadam. Do I agree with the pictures taken no. I plainly said that. I might have missed a few facts that some of the prisoners were innocent and thats my bad ok I'll throw that one out. They are all being punished for a crime. In Sadam's governement and if these radicals were to take power would those people be punished for their crimes. We all know the answer is no. So better american no. Better person no. Better patriot no. I don't think that was what I was pointing out and I am sorry if it came across that way. I'm just glad I'm and American and at the end of the day wether I like you or not I'm glad you are one too.[/quote]
I see what your point is and I repsect it. The reason I said that this country doesn't support me is because they don't on many issues, but they do on others. I could go to Canada or England and say what i want and probably wouldn't be shot or arrested. Depending on exactly what i was saying, but the same goes for America as well. Anyway, I understand your view.